Chris Anderson: Shep, thank you so much for coming. I think your plane landed literally two hours ago in Vancouver. Such a treat to have you. So, talk us through how do you get from Einstein's equation to a black hole?
Kris Anderson: Šep, mnogo ti hvala što si došao. Mislim da ti je avion sleteo bukvalno pre dva sata u Vankuver. Velika je čast što si tu. Dakle, pokaži nam kako ste stigli od Ajnštajnove jednačine do crne rupe?
Sheperd Doeleman: Over 100 years ago, Einstein came up with this geometric theory of gravity which deforms space-time. So, matter deforms space-time, and then space-time tells matter in turn how to move around it. And you can get enough matter into a small enough region that it punctures space-time, and that even light can't escape, the force of gravity keeps even light inside.
Šeperd Dolman: Pre stotinu godina, Ajnštajn je došao do geometrijske teorije gravitacije koja deformiše prostor-vreme. Materija deformiše prostor-vreme, a potom prostor-vreme saopštava materiji kako da se kreće oko njega. Možete da imate dovoljno materije u dovoljno maloj oblasti koja probija prostor-vreme, da ni svetlost ne može da pobegne, sila gravitacije čak i svetlost zadržava unutra.
CA: And so, before that, the reason the Earth moves around the Sun is not because the Sun is pulling the Earth as we think, but it's literally changed the shape of space so that we just sort of fall around the Sun.
KA: Dakle, pre toga, razlog zašto se Zemlja okreće oko Sunca nije zato što Sunce privlači Zemlju, kao što mislimo, već je to bukvalno izmenilo oblik prostora, te mi prosto nekako padamo oko Sunca.
SD: Exactly, the geometry of space-time tells the Earth how to move around the Sun. You're almost seeing a black hole puncture through space-time, and when it goes so deeply in, then there's a point at which light orbits the black hole.
ŠD: Upravo, geometrija prostora-vremena saopštava Zemlji kako da se kreće oko Sunca. Gotovo da vidite crnu rupu kako probija prostor-vreme, a kada zadre toliko duboko unutra, imamo tačku u kojoj svetlost kruži oko crne rupe.
CA: And so that's, I guess, is what's happening here. This is not an image, this is a computer simulation of what we always thought, like, the event horizon around the black hole.
KA: A to je ono što se, pretpostavljam, dešava ovde. Ovo nije slika, ovo je kompjuterska simulacija nečega što smo oduvek smatrali horizontom događaja oko crne rupe.
SD: Until last week, we had no idea what a black hole really looked like. The best we could do were simulations like this in supercomputers, but even here you see this ring of light, which is the orbit of photons. That's where photons literally move around the black hole, and around that is this hot gas that's drawn to the black hole, and it's hot because of friction. All this gas is trying to get into a very small volume, so it heats up.
ŠD: Do prošle nedelje, pojma nismo imali kako zaista izgleda crna rupa. Najviše što smo mogli su bile simulacije, nalik ovoj, na superkompjuterima, ali čak i ovde vidite taj svetlosni prsten, a to je orbita od fotona. Tu se fotoni bukvalno kreću oko crne rupe, a oko toga je vreli gas koga privlači crna rupa, a vreo je zbog trenja. Ovaj gas pokušava da stigne u veoma malu zapreminu, te se zagreva.
CA: A few years ago, you embarked on this mission to try and actually image one of these things. And I guess you took -- you focused on this galaxy way out there. Tell us about this galaxy.
KA: Pre nekoliko godina si se zaputio na ovu misiju da pokušaš da zapravo uslikaš jednu od ovih stvari. I pretpostavljam da si uzeo - usredsredio si se na tu galaksiju skroz tamo. Ispričaj nam o ovoj galaksiji.
SD: This is the galaxy -- we're going to zoom into the galaxy M87, it's 55 million light-years away.
ŠD: Ovo je galaksija - zumiraćemo galaksiju M87, udaljenu 55 miliona svetlosnih godina.
CA: Fifty-five million.
KA: 55 miliona.
SD: Which is a long way. And at its heart, there's a six-and-a-half-billion- solar-mass black hole. That's hard for us to really fathom, right? Six and a half billion suns compressed into a single point. And it's governing some of the energetics of the center of this galaxy.
ŠD: To je daleko. A u njenoj srži, nalazi se crna rupa od šest i po milijardi Sunčeve mase. Teško nam je to da pojmimo, zar ne? Šest i po milijardi sunaca sabijeno u jednu tačku. I ona upravlja delom energetike središta ove galaksije.
CA: But even though that thing is so huge, because it's so far away, to actually dream of getting an image of it, that's incredibly hard. The resolution would be incredible that you need.
KA: Iako je ta stvar tako ogromna, iz razloga što je tako daleko, zapravo sanjati o njenoj fotografiji, to je neverovatno teško. Potrebna bi bila neverovatna rezolucija.
SD: Black holes are the smallest objects in the known universe. But they have these outsize effects on whole galaxies. But to see one, you would need to build a telescope as large as the Earth, because the black hole that we're looking at gives off copious radio waves. It's emitting all the time.
ŠD: Crne rupe su najmanji objekti u poznatom univerzumu. Međutim, one imaju ogroman uticaj na čitave galaksije. No, da biste videli jednu, morali biste da sagradite teleskop veličine Zemlje, jer crna rupa u koju gledamo otpušta obilne radio-talase. Sve vreme isijava.
CA: And that's exactly what you did.
KA: I upravo to ste i uradili.
SD: Exactly. What you're seeing here is we used telescopes all around the world, we synchronized them perfectly with atomic clocks, so they received the light waves from this black hole, and then we stitched all of that data together to make an image.
ŠD: Upravo. Ovde vidite da smo koristili teleskope širom sveta, savršeno smo ih sinhronizovali uz pomoć atomskih satova koji su primali svetlosne talase iz crne rupe, a potom smo spajali zajedno sve podatke kako bismo dobili sliku.
CA: To do that the weather had to be right in all of those locations at the same time, so you could actually get a clear view.
KA: Da biste to postigli, vreme je moralo da bude dobro na svim tim lokacijama u isto vreme, kako biste zapravo imali jasan pogled.
SD: We had to get lucky in a lot of different ways. And sometimes, it's better to be lucky than good. In this case, we were both, I like to think. But light had to come from the black hole. It had to come through intergalactic space, through the Earth's atmosphere, where water vapor can absorb it, and everything worked out perfectly, the size of the Earth at that wavelength of light, one millimeter wavelength, was just right to resolve that black hole, 55 million light-years away. The universe was telling us what to do.
ŠD: Moralo je da nam se posreći na razne načine. A ponekad je bolje imati sreće nego znanja. U ovom slučaju, volim da verujem, da smo imali oboje. Međutim, crna rupa je morala da odaje svetlost. Svetlost je morala da stiže kroz intergalaktički prostor, kroz Zemljinu atmosferu, gde su vodena isparavanja mogla da je apsorbuju, i sve se savršeno poklopilo, veličina Zemlje na toj talasnoj dužini svetlosti od jednog milimetra bila je odgovarajuća da otkrije crnu rupu udaljenu 55 miliona svetlosnih godina. Univerzum nam je saopštavao šta da radimo.
CA: So you started capturing huge amounts of data. I think this is like half the data from just one telescope.
KA: Počeli ste da beležite ogromne količine podataka. Mislim da je ovo tek polovina podataka od samo jednog teleskopa.
SD: Yeah, this is one of the members of our team, Lindy Blackburn, and he's sitting with half the data recorded at the Large Millimeter Telescope, which is atop a 15,000-foot mountain in Mexico. And what he's holding there is about half a petabyte. Which, to put it in terms that we might understand, it's about 5,000 people's lifetime selfie budget.
ŠD: Da, ovo je jedan od članova naše ekipe, Lindi Blekburn, i on sedi pored polovine podataka koje je snimio Veliki milimetarski teleskop koji stoji na vrhu 4 850 km visoke planine u Meksiku. A on tu drži otprilike polovinu petabajta. Što je, kad se izrazi terminom koji možemo da razumemo, oko 5 000 celoživotnih ljudskih selfi budžeta.
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
CA: It's a lot of data. So this was all shipped, you couldn't send this over the internet. All this data was shipped to one place and the massive computer effort began to try and analyze it. And you didn't really know what you were going to see coming out of this.
KA: To je mnogo podataka. Sve je transportovano, niste ovo mogli slati preko interneta. Svi ovi podaci su dopremljeni na jedno mesto i uz ogromne napore kompjutera ste pokušali da ovo analizirate. I niste zaista znali šta ćete da ugledate po okončanju svega.
SD: The way this technique works that we used -- imagine taking an optical mirror and smashing it and putting all the shards in different places. The way a normal mirror works is the light rays bounce off the surface, which is perfect, and they focus in a certain point at the same time. We take all these recordings, and with atomic clock precision we align them perfectly, later in a supercomputer. And we recreate kind of an Earth-sized lens. And the only way to do that is to bring the data back by plane. You can't beat the bandwidth of a 747 filled with hard discs.
ŠD: Tehnika koju smo koristili funkcioniše tako - zamislite da uzmete optičko ogledalo i razbijete ga i sve krhotine stavite na različita mesta. Normalno ogledalo funkcioniše tako što se svetlosni zraci odbijaju o površinu, a to je savršeno, i istovremeno se fokusiraju u određenu tačku. Uzimamo sve ove snimke, i preciznošću atomskog časovnika kasnije ih savršeno poređamo unutar superkompjutera. I isceniramo neki vid objektiva veličine Zemlje. A jedini način da to obavimo je da avionom prebacimo podatke. Ne možete da pobedite opseg boinga 747 ispunjenog hard diskovima.
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
CA: And so, I guess a few weeks or a few months ago, on a computer screen somewhere, this started to come into view. This moment.
KA: Pretpostavljam, pre nekoliko sedmica ili meseci, negde na nekom kompjuterskom ekranu ovo je počelo da se kristališe. Ovaj trenutak.
SD: Well, it took a long time.
ŠD: Pa, potrajalo je poprilično.
CA: I mean, look at this. That was it. That was the first image.
KA: Mislim, pogledajte ovo. To je bilo to. To je bila prva slika.
(Applause)
(Aplauz)
So tell us what we're really looking at there.
Reci nam u šta ovde gledamo.
SD: I still love it.
ŠD: I dalje sam oduševljen.
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
So what you're seeing is that last orbit of photons. You're seeing Einstein's geometry laid bare. The puncture in space-time is so deep that light moves around in orbit, so that light behind the black hole, as I think we'll see soon, moves around and comes to us on these parallel lines at exactly that orbit. It turns out, that orbit is the square root of 27 times just a handful of fundamental constants. It's extraordinary when you think about it.
Ovde vidite poslednju orbitu fotona. Vidite ogoljenu Ajnštajnovu geometriju. Rascep u vremenu-prostoru je tako dubok da svetlost kruži u orbiti, a svetlost iza crne rupe, verujem da ćemo to uskoro da vidimo, kruži i do nas stiže u ovim paralelnim linijama baš u vidu te orbite. Ispostavlja se da je ta orbita veličine kvadratnog korena od 27 pomnoženog sa svega šačicom fundamentalnih konstanti. Izvanredno je kad razmislite o tome.
CA: When ... In my head, initially, when I thought of black holes, I'm thinking that is the event horizon, there's lots of matter and light whirling around in that shape. But it's actually more complicated than that. Well, talk us through this animation, because it's light being lensed around it.
KA: Kad... Prvobitno u mojoj glavi, kad sam razmišljao o crnim rupama, razmišljam da je ovo horizont događaja, ima tu mnogo materije i svetlosti koje kruže u tom obliku. Međutim, zapravo je mnogo složenije od toga. Dakle, objasni nam ovu animaciju, jer je svetlost usmerena oko nje.
SD: You'll see here that some light from behind it gets lensed, and some light does a loop-the-loop around the entire orbit of the black hole. But when you get enough light from all this hot gas swirling around the black hole, then you wind up seeing all of these light rays come together on this screen, which is a stand-in for where you and I are. And you see the definition of this ring begin to come into shape. And that's what Einstein predicted over 100 years ago.
ŠD: Videćete ovde da se nešto svetlosti iz pozadine usmerava, a nešto svetlosti pravi salta oko čitave orbite crne rupe. No, kad imate dovoljno svetlosti iz sveg ovog vrelog gasa koji kruži oko crne rupe, onda vidite sve ove svetlosne zrake kako se sastaju na ovom ekranu, a to je supstitucija moje i tvoje pozicije. I vidite konture ovog prstena kako poprimaju oblik. A to je Ajnštajn predvideo pre više od 100 godina.
CA: Yeah, that is amazing. So tell us more about what we're actually looking at here. First of all, why is part of it brighter than the rest?
KA: Da, to je zadivljujuće. Ispričaj nam više o tome šta ovde vidimo. Pre svega, zašto su neki delovi svetliji od drugih?
SD: So what's happening is that the black hole is spinning. And you wind up with some of the gas moving towards us below and receding from us on the top. And just as the train whistle has a higher pitch when it's coming towards you, there's more energy from the gas coming towards us than going away from us. You see the bottom part brighter because the light is actually being boosted in our direction.
ŠD: Dešava se to da se crna rupa okreće. I, naposletku, nešto gasa ispod nje se kreće ka nama, a gas s vrha se povlači. I baš kao što vozna sirena zvuči prodornije kada voz ide ka vama, gas emituje veću energiju kada se kreće ka nama nego kada se udaljava od nas. Donji deo izgleda svetlije jer je svetlost zapravo jača u našem smeru.
CA: And how physically big is that?
KA: A koliko je to fizički veliko?
SD: Our entire solar system would fit well within that dark region. And if I may, that dark region is the signature of the event horizon. The reason we don't see light from there, is that the light that would come to us from that place was swallowed by the event horizon. So that -- that's it.
ŠD: Naš celokupan Sunčev sistem bi stao u tu tamnu oblast. I dodaću, ta tamna oblast je otisak horizonta događaja. Razlog zašto ne vidimo svetlost odatle je što je svetlost koja bi stigla do nas sa tog mesta apsorbovana horizontom događaja. Dakle, to je to.
CA: And so when we think of a black hole, you think of these huge rays jetting out of it, which are pointed directly in our direction. Why don't we see them?
KA: Dakle, kada razmišljamo o crnoj rupi, pomišljamo na te ogromne zrake kako sevaju iz nje, a koji su usmereni tačno u našem pravcu. Zašto ih ne vidimo?
SD: This is a very powerful black hole. Not by universal standards, it's still powerful, and from the north and south poles of this black hole we think that jets are coming. Now, we're too close to really see all the jet structure, but it's the base of those jets that are illuminating the space-time. And that's what's being bent around the black hole.
ŠD: Ovo je veoma moćna crna rupa. Ne po standardima univerzuma, ali je i dalje moćna, a sa severnih i južnih polova ove crne rupe smatramo da stižu svi ti mlazevi. Sad, suviše smo blizu da bismo zaista videli strukturu mlaza, ali osnova tih mlazeva osvetljava vreme-prostor. I to je ono što se povija oko crne rupe.
CA: And if you were in a spaceship whirling around that thing somehow, how long would it take to actually go around it?
KA: A kad bismo u svemirskom brodu nekako kružili oko te stvari, koliko bi nam trebalo da je obiđemo?
SD: First, I would give anything to be in that spaceship.
ŠD: Pre svega, sve bih dao da budem u tom svemirskom brodu.
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
Sign me up. There’s something called the -- if I can get wonky for one moment -- the innermost stable circular orbit, that's the innermost orbit at which matter can move around a black hole before it spirals in. And for this black hole, it's going to be between three days and about a month.
Upišite me. Postoji nešto što se zove - ako mogu da budem malo neprecizan - najdublja stabilna kružna orbita, to je unutrašnja orbita u kojoj materija može da kruži oko crne rupe pre nego što spiralno ponire. A u slučaju ove crne rupe, to će da traje između tri dana i oko jednog meseca.
CA: It's so powerful, it's weirdly slow at one level. I mean, you wouldn't even notice falling into that event horizon if you were there.
KA: Toliko je moćno, čudnovato sporo na neki način. Mislim, ne biste čak ni primetili upadanje u taj horizont događaja kad biste bili tamo.
SD: So you may have heard of "spaghettification," where you fall into a black hole and the gravitational field on your feet is much stronger than on your head, so you're ripped apart. This black hole is so big that you're not going to become a spaghetti noodle. You're just going to drift right through that event horizon.
ŠD: Možda ste čuli za „špagetizaciju”, gde upadnete u crnu rupu, a gravitaciono polje na vašim stopalima je mnogo snažnije nego na glavi, te ste raskomadani. Ova crna rupa je toliko velika da nećete postati špageta. Prosto ćete da propadnete kroz taj horizont događaja.
CA: So, it's like a giant tornado. When Dorothy was whipped by a tornado, she ended up in Oz. Where do you end up if you fall into a black hole?
KA: Dakle, to je kao džinovski tornado. Kada je Doroti zgrabio tornado, završila je u Ozu. Gde bismo mi završili, ako bismo upali u crnu rupu?
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
SD: Vancouver.
ŠD: U Vankuveru.
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
CA: Oh, my God.
KA: O, moj bože.
(Applause)
(Aplauz)
It's the red circle, that's terrifying. No, really.
Crveni krug, zastrašujuće je. Ne, zaista.
SD: Black holes really are the central mystery of our age, because that's where the quantum world and the gravitational world come together. What's inside is a singularity. And that's where all the forces become unified, because gravity finally is strong enough to compete with all the other forces. But it's hidden from us, the universe has cloaked it in the ultimate invisibility cloak. So we don't know what happens in there.
ŠD: Crne rupe zaista jesu velike misterije našeg doba jer se tu spajaju kvantni svet i gravitacioni svet. Unutra je singularnost. A tu sve sile postaju ujedinjene jer je gravitacija konačno dovoljno snažna da se nadmeće sa drugim silama. Međutim, to je skriveno od nas, univerzum ga je ogrnuo vrhunskim ogrtačem nevidljivosti. Stoga mi ne znamo šta se tamo dešava.
CA: So there's a smaller one of these in our own galaxy. Can we go back to our own beautiful galaxy? This is the Milky Way, this is home. And somewhere in the middle of that there's another one, which you're trying to find as well.
KA: Dakle, imamo jednu sličnu, manju u našoj galaksiji. Možemo li da se vratimo na našu lepu galaksiju? Ovo je Mlečni put, ovo je dom. A negde u središtu se krije još jedna, koju takođe pokušavate da nađete.
SD: We already know it's there, and we've already taken data on it. And we're working on those data right now. So we hope to have something in the near future, I can't say when.
ŠD: Već znamo da je tu i već smo uzeli podatke o njoj. I trenutno radimo na tim podacima. Nadamo se da ćemo da imamo nešto u bliskoj budućnosti,
CA: It's way closer but also a lot smaller,
ne mogu da kažem kad.
maybe the similar kind of size to what we saw?
KA: Mnogo je bliže, ali je i mnogo manja, možda slične veličine kao ono što smo videli?
SD: Right. So it turns out that the black hole in M87, that we saw before, is six and a half billion solar masses. But it's so far away that it appears a certain size. The black hole in the center of our galaxy is a thousand times less massive, but also a thousand times closer. So it looks the same angular size on the sky.
ŠT: Upravo. Ispostavlja se da je crna rupa u M87, koju smo malopre videli, veličine šest i po milijardi Sunčeve mase. Međutim, toliko je daleko da se čini određene veličine. Crna rupa u središtu naše galaksije je hiljadu puta manje mase, ali je i hiljadu puta bliža. Pa, izgleda iste ugaone veličine na nebu.
CA: Finally, I guess, a nod to a remarkable group of people. Who are these guys?
KA: Za kraj, pretpostavljam, naklon za izvanrednu grupu ljudi. Ko su ti ljudi?
SD: So these are only some of the team. We marveled at the resonance that this image has had. If you told me that it would be above the fold in all of these newspapers, I'm not sure I would have believed you, but it was. Because this is a great mystery, and it's inspiring for us, and I hope it's inspiring to everyone. But the more important thing is that this is just a small number of the team. We're 200 people strong with 60 institutes and 20 countries and regions. If you want to build a global telescope you need a global team. And this technique that we use of linking telescopes around the world kind of effortlessly sidesteps some of the issues that divide us. And as scientists, we naturally come together to do something like this.
ŠD: Ovo je samo deo ekipe. Čudili smo se odjeku koji je ova slika imala. Da ste mi rekli da će da bude na naslovnicama svih ovih novina, nisam siguran da bih vam verovao, ali jeste. Jer se radi o velikoj misteriji koja nas inspiriše, a nadam se da inspiriše svakoga. Međutim, važnija stvar je da je ovo tek mali deo ekipe. Ima nas 200 u 60 instituta i 20 država i regiona. Ako želite da sagradite globalni teleskop, potrebna vam je globalna ekipa. A tehnika koju koristimo da povežemo teleskope širom sveta nekako bez napora prevazilazi neka od pitanja koja nas razdvajaju. A kao naučnici, prirodno se okupljamo zbog sličnih stvari.
CA: Wow, boy, that's inspiring for our whole team this week. Shep, thank you so much for what you did and for coming here.
KA: Čoveče, ala je to inspirativno za čitavu našu ekipu ove nedelje. Šep, mnogo ti hvala za sve i što si došao ovde.
SD: Thank you.
ŠD: Hvala tebi.
(Applause)
(Aplauz)