Chris Anderson: Shep, thank you so much for coming. I think your plane landed literally two hours ago in Vancouver. Such a treat to have you. So, talk us through how do you get from Einstein's equation to a black hole?
Chris Anderson: Shep, puno ti hvala što si došao. Čini mi se da je tvoj avion sletio prije dva sata u Vancouveru. Užitak je imati te ovdje. Dakle, ispričaj nam kojim putem doći od Einsteinove formule do crne rupe.
Sheperd Doeleman: Over 100 years ago, Einstein came up with this geometric theory of gravity which deforms space-time. So, matter deforms space-time, and then space-time tells matter in turn how to move around it. And you can get enough matter into a small enough region that it punctures space-time, and that even light can't escape, the force of gravity keeps even light inside.
Sheperd Doeleman: Prije više od 100 godina Einstein je postavio geometrijsku teoriju gravitacije koja mijenja prostor-vrijeme. Dakle, tvar mijenja prostor-vrijeme i tada zauzvrat prostor-vrijeme govori tvari kako se kretati. Možete staviti dovoljno tvari u dovoljno malo područje tako da probije prostor-vrijeme i tada čak niti svjetlost ne može pobjeći, gravitacijska sila zadržava čak i svjetlost unutra.
CA: And so, before that, the reason the Earth moves around the Sun is not because the Sun is pulling the Earth as we think, but it's literally changed the shape of space so that we just sort of fall around the Sun.
CA: Dakle, prije toga, razlog zašto se Zemlja okreće oko Sunca nije bio zbog toga što Sunce vuče Zemlju kao što mislimo, nego doslovce mijenja oblik prostora tako da na neki način padamo oko Sunca.
SD: Exactly, the geometry of space-time tells the Earth how to move around the Sun. You're almost seeing a black hole puncture through space-time, and when it goes so deeply in, then there's a point at which light orbits the black hole.
SD: Upravo tako, geometrija prostor-vremena govori Zemlji kako se kretati oko Sunca. Gotovo vidite kako crna rupa probija prostor-vrijeme i kada u njega duboko uđe, to je točka u kojoj svjetlost kruži oko crne rupe.
CA: And so that's, I guess, is what's happening here. This is not an image, this is a computer simulation of what we always thought, like, the event horizon around the black hole.
CA: Dakle to je, čini mi se, ono što se ovdje događa. Ovo nije fotografija, ovo je računalna simulacija onoga što smo oduvijek mislili, kao, horizont događaja oko crne rupe.
SD: Until last week, we had no idea what a black hole really looked like. The best we could do were simulations like this in supercomputers, but even here you see this ring of light, which is the orbit of photons. That's where photons literally move around the black hole, and around that is this hot gas that's drawn to the black hole, and it's hot because of friction. All this gas is trying to get into a very small volume, so it heats up.
SD: Do prije prošlog tjedna nismo imali pojma kako crna rupa zbilja izgleda. Najbolje što smo mogli su bile simulacije kao ova putem superračunala, ali čak i ovdje vidite ovaj prsten svjetlosti koji je orbita fotona. Tu se fotoni doslovno kreću oko crne rupe i oko toga je vrući plin koji privlači crna rupa, a vruć je zbog trenja. Sav taj plin pokušava ući u vrlo mali volumen i zato se zagrijava.
CA: A few years ago, you embarked on this mission to try and actually image one of these things. And I guess you took -- you focused on this galaxy way out there. Tell us about this galaxy.
CA: Prije nekoliko godina započeli ste misiju kako biste pokušali uslikati jednu od tih stvari. Mislim da ste, fokusirali ste se na jednu jako udaljenu galaksiju. Reci nam nešto o toj galaksiji.
SD: This is the galaxy -- we're going to zoom into the galaxy M87, it's 55 million light-years away.
SD: To je galaksija - zumirat ćemo galaksiju M87, ona je udaljena 55 milijuna svjetlosnih godina.
CA: Fifty-five million.
CA: 55 milijuna.
SD: Which is a long way. And at its heart, there's a six-and-a-half-billion- solar-mass black hole. That's hard for us to really fathom, right? Six and a half billion suns compressed into a single point. And it's governing some of the energetics of the center of this galaxy.
SD: Što je daleki put. I u njenom središtu nalazi se crna rupa mase šest i pol milijardi masa Sunca. To nam je zaista teško dokučiti, zar ne? Šest i pol milijardi Sunaca zbijenih u jednu točku. I upravlja energijom centra galaksije.
CA: But even though that thing is so huge, because it's so far away, to actually dream of getting an image of it, that's incredibly hard. The resolution would be incredible that you need.
CA: Ali čak i ako je toliko ogromna, zato što je toliko udaljena sanjati da je uslikamo, to je nevjerojatno teško. Bila bi potrebna nevjerojatna rezolucija.
SD: Black holes are the smallest objects in the known universe. But they have these outsize effects on whole galaxies. But to see one, you would need to build a telescope as large as the Earth, because the black hole that we're looking at gives off copious radio waves. It's emitting all the time.
SD: Crne rupe su najmanji objekti u poznatom svemiru. Ali imaju jako veliki efekt na cijele galaksije. Ali za vidjeti je morali biste napraviti teleskop veličine Zemlje zato što nam crna rupa koju gledamo daje ogromne radio valove. Emitira ih cijelo vrijeme.
CA: And that's exactly what you did.
CA: To je upravo ono što ste napravili.
SD: Exactly. What you're seeing here is we used telescopes all around the world, we synchronized them perfectly with atomic clocks, so they received the light waves from this black hole, and then we stitched all of that data together to make an image.
SD: Tako je. Ovo što vidite: Koristili smo teleskope iz cijelog svijeta, savršeno ih sinkronizirali s atomskim satovima, tako da su primili svjetlosne valove iz te crne rupe i tada smo spojili sve podatke zajedno kako bismo kreirali fotografiju.
CA: To do that the weather had to be right in all of those locations at the same time, so you could actually get a clear view.
CA: Kako biste to napravili, vrijeme je moralo biti povoljno na svim tim lokacijama u isto vrijeme kako biste imali bistri pogled.
SD: We had to get lucky in a lot of different ways. And sometimes, it's better to be lucky than good. In this case, we were both, I like to think. But light had to come from the black hole. It had to come through intergalactic space, through the Earth's atmosphere, where water vapor can absorb it, and everything worked out perfectly, the size of the Earth at that wavelength of light, one millimeter wavelength, was just right to resolve that black hole, 55 million light-years away. The universe was telling us what to do.
SD: Morali smo imati sreće na mnogo razina. A ponekad je bolje imati sreće nego pameti. U ovom slučaju mislim da smo imali oboje. Ali svjetlost je morala doći iz crne rupe. Morala je doći kroz intergalaktički prostor, kroz Zemljinu atmosferu gdje ju je vodena para mogla apsorbirati, i sve se savršeno poklopilo, veličina Zemlje na toj valnoj duljini svjetlosti, jedan milimetar valne duljine, bilo je taman dovoljno kako bi otkrilo tu crnu rupu udaljenu 55 milijuna svjetlosnih godina. Svemir nam je govorio što moramo učiniti.
CA: So you started capturing huge amounts of data. I think this is like half the data from just one telescope.
CA: Dakle počeli ste primati velike količine podataka. Mislim da je ovo polovica podataka iz samo jednog teleskopa.
SD: Yeah, this is one of the members of our team, Lindy Blackburn, and he's sitting with half the data recorded at the Large Millimeter Telescope, which is atop a 15,000-foot mountain in Mexico. And what he's holding there is about half a petabyte. Which, to put it in terms that we might understand, it's about 5,000 people's lifetime selfie budget.
SD: Da, ovo je jedan od članova našeg tima, Lindy Blackburn, i pokazuje polovicu podataka snimljenih teleskopom Large Millimeter koji se nalazi na 4,5 kilometarskoj planini u Meksiku. I pokazuje pola petabajta podataka. Što je, da stavimo u razumljivi termin, količina cjeloživotnih selfija 5000 osoba.
(Laughter)
(Smijeh)
CA: It's a lot of data. So this was all shipped, you couldn't send this over the internet. All this data was shipped to one place and the massive computer effort began to try and analyze it. And you didn't really know what you were going to see coming out of this.
To je mnogo podataka. Dakle, ovo je sve poslano brodom, niste to mogli poslati preko interneta. Svi ovi podaci su poslani na jedno mjesto i počeo je masovni napor računala kako bi ih analizirali. I niste mogli znati što ćete vidjeti kao krajnji rezultat.
SD: The way this technique works that we used -- imagine taking an optical mirror and smashing it and putting all the shards in different places. The way a normal mirror works is the light rays bounce off the surface, which is perfect, and they focus in a certain point at the same time. We take all these recordings, and with atomic clock precision we align them perfectly, later in a supercomputer. And we recreate kind of an Earth-sized lens. And the only way to do that is to bring the data back by plane. You can't beat the bandwidth of a 747 filled with hard discs.
SD: Način na koji ova tehnika radi je - zamislite da uzmete optičko zrcalo i razbijete ga i stavite sve komadiće na različita mjesta. Način na koji standardno zrcalo funkcionira je da se zrake svjetlosti odbijaju od površine, što je savršeno, i fokusiraju se u određenoj točki u isto vrijeme. Uzmemo sve te zapise i preciznošću atomskog sata savršeno ih uskladimo kasnije u superračunalu. Rekreiramo, recimo, leće veličine Zemlje. I jedini način za to postići je dopremiti podatke natrag avionom. Ništa nije brže od Boeinga 747 kad je riječ o tvrdim diskovima.
(Laughter)
(Smijeh)
CA: And so, I guess a few weeks or a few months ago, on a computer screen somewhere, this started to come into view. This moment.
CA: Dakle, prije par tjedana ili par mjeseci na nekom zaslonu računala negdje ovo se počelo vidjeti. Ovaj moment.
SD: Well, it took a long time.
SD: Pa, trebalo je dosta vremena.
CA: I mean, look at this. That was it. That was the first image.
CA: Mislim, pogledajte ovo. To je to. To je prva fotografija.
(Applause)
(Pljesak)
So tell us what we're really looking at there.
Reci nam što zapravo ovdje gledamo.
SD: I still love it.
SD: Još sam zaljubljen.
(Laughter)
(Smijeh)
So what you're seeing is that last orbit of photons. You're seeing Einstein's geometry laid bare. The puncture in space-time is so deep that light moves around in orbit, so that light behind the black hole, as I think we'll see soon, moves around and comes to us on these parallel lines at exactly that orbit. It turns out, that orbit is the square root of 27 times just a handful of fundamental constants. It's extraordinary when you think about it.
Dakle ono što vidite je ta poslijednja orbita fotona. Vidite golu Einsteinovu geometriju. Rupa u prostor-vremenu je toliko duboka da se svjetlost kreće oko nje u orbiti, tako da se svjetlost iza crne rupe, što ćemo, mislim, uskoro vidjeti, kreće okolo i prilazi nam ovim paralelnim linijama u upravo toj orbiti. Ispada da je ta orbita korijen od 27 puta samo pregršt fundamentalnih konstanti. To je zbilja izvanredno kada razmislite.
CA: When ... In my head, initially, when I thought of black holes, I'm thinking that is the event horizon, there's lots of matter and light whirling around in that shape. But it's actually more complicated than that. Well, talk us through this animation, because it's light being lensed around it.
CA: Kada... U mojoj glavi, pomisao o crnim rupama je pomisao na horizont događaja, tamo je mnoštvo tvari i svjetlosti koji se vrte u krug u tom obliku. Ali je zapravo kompliciranije od toga. Provedi nas kroz ovu animaciju, jer se svjetlost izobličuje oko nje.
SD: You'll see here that some light from behind it gets lensed, and some light does a loop-the-loop around the entire orbit of the black hole. But when you get enough light from all this hot gas swirling around the black hole, then you wind up seeing all of these light rays come together on this screen, which is a stand-in for where you and I are. And you see the definition of this ring begin to come into shape. And that's what Einstein predicted over 100 years ago.
SD: Ovdje vidite da se nešto svjetlosti odostraga izobličuje, dok nešto svjetlosti kruži oko orbite crne rupe. Ali kada imate dovoljno svjetlosti iz svog tog vrućeg plina koji kruži oko crne rupe, tada vidite sve te svjetlosne zrake kako se sakupljaju na ovom ekranu, što je zamjena za ono gdje se ti i ja nalazimo. I vidite kako prsten poprima oblik. I to je ono što je Einstein predvidio prije preko 100 godina.
CA: Yeah, that is amazing. So tell us more about what we're actually looking at here. First of all, why is part of it brighter than the rest?
CA: Da, to je nevjerojatno. Reci nam nešto više o tome što zapravo gledamo. Kao prvo, zašto su neki dijelovi svjetliji od drugih?
SD: So what's happening is that the black hole is spinning. And you wind up with some of the gas moving towards us below and receding from us on the top. And just as the train whistle has a higher pitch when it's coming towards you, there's more energy from the gas coming towards us than going away from us. You see the bottom part brighter because the light is actually being boosted in our direction.
SD: Ono što se događa jest da se crna rupa okreće. Tako da se dio plina kreće prema nama odozdo, a udaljava odozgo. I kao što sirena na vlaku ima viši ton kada vlak ide prema vama, više energije dolazi iz plina koji ide prema nama nego iz onoga koji se odmiče. Donji dio vidite svjetlije zato što je ta svjetlost izbačena prema nama.
CA: And how physically big is that?
CA: I koliko je to u stvarnosti veliko?
SD: Our entire solar system would fit well within that dark region. And if I may, that dark region is the signature of the event horizon. The reason we don't see light from there, is that the light that would come to us from that place was swallowed by the event horizon. So that -- that's it.
SD: Cijeli naš Sunčev sustav bi stao unutar crnog kruga. I, ako smijem, taj crni krug je ustvari otisak horizonta događaja. Razlog zašto tamo ne vidimo svjetlost je to što je svjetlost koja nam je od tamo trebala doći progutao horizont događaja. Tako da, to je to.
CA: And so when we think of a black hole, you think of these huge rays jetting out of it, which are pointed directly in our direction. Why don't we see them?
Dakle kada pomislimo na crnu rupu, pomislimo na te ogromne zrake kako izbijaju iz nje točno u našem pravcu. Zašto ih ne vidimo?
SD: This is a very powerful black hole. Not by universal standards, it's still powerful, and from the north and south poles of this black hole we think that jets are coming. Now, we're too close to really see all the jet structure, but it's the base of those jets that are illuminating the space-time. And that's what's being bent around the black hole.
SD: Ovo je vrlo moćna crna rupa. Ne prema univerzalnim standardima, ali ipak moćna, i smatramo da iz sjevernog i južnog pola ove crne rupe dolaze zrake. Mi smo preblizu da zbilja vidimo sve te zrake. Ali korijeni tih zraka osvjetljuju prostor-vrijeme. I to je ono što se ovija oko crne rupe.
CA: And if you were in a spaceship whirling around that thing somehow, how long would it take to actually go around it?
CA: Da se nalazimo u svemirskom brodu koji nekako kruži oko toga, koliko bi mu zbilja dugo trebalo da prođe oko nje?
SD: First, I would give anything to be in that spaceship.
SD: Prvo, dao bih sve da budem na tom svemirskom brodu.
(Laughter)
(Smijeh)
Sign me up. There’s something called the -- if I can get wonky for one moment -- the innermost stable circular orbit, that's the innermost orbit at which matter can move around a black hole before it spirals in. And for this black hole, it's going to be between three days and about a month.
Zapišite me. Postoji nešto što se zove, ako mogu biti nesiguran na trenutak, najunutarnjija stabilna kružna orbita koja je najunutarnjija orbita na kojoj se tvar može kretati oko crne rupe prije nego potone unutra. I za ovu crnu rupu iznosila bi između tri dana i otprilike jednog mjeseca.
CA: It's so powerful, it's weirdly slow at one level. I mean, you wouldn't even notice falling into that event horizon if you were there.
CA: Toliko je moćna, čudno spora na nekoj razini. Mislim, ne biste niti primijetili da padate kroz horizont događaja da ste tamo.
SD: So you may have heard of "spaghettification," where you fall into a black hole and the gravitational field on your feet is much stronger than on your head, so you're ripped apart. This black hole is so big that you're not going to become a spaghetti noodle. You're just going to drift right through that event horizon.
SD; Možda ste čuli za efekt "špagetifikacije", dok padate u crnu rupu gravitacijsko polje na vašim nogama je mnogo jače nego na glavi tako da ste rastrgani. Ova crna rupa je toliko velika da nećete postati špaget. Samo ćete tonuti ravno kroz taj horizont događaja.
CA: So, it's like a giant tornado. When Dorothy was whipped by a tornado, she ended up in Oz. Where do you end up if you fall into a black hole?
CA: Dakle, to je kao ogromni tornado. Kada je Dorothy šibao tornado, završila je u Ozu. Gdje mi završimo ako upadnemo u crnu rupu?
(Laughter)
(Smijeh)
SD: Vancouver.
SD: U Vancouveru.
(Laughter)
(Smijeh)
CA: Oh, my God.
CA: O, moj Bože.
(Applause)
(Pljesak)
It's the red circle, that's terrifying. No, really.
Taj crveni krug je ono što je zastrašujuće. Ne, zbilja.
SD: Black holes really are the central mystery of our age, because that's where the quantum world and the gravitational world come together. What's inside is a singularity. And that's where all the forces become unified, because gravity finally is strong enough to compete with all the other forces. But it's hidden from us, the universe has cloaked it in the ultimate invisibility cloak. So we don't know what happens in there.
SD: Crne rupe su zbilja središnja misterija našeg vremena zato što se tamo susreću kvantni i gravitacijski svijet. Ono što je unutra je singularnost. I tamo se sve sile ujedinjuju zato što je gravitacijska sila konačno dovoljno jaka kako bi se natjecala sa svim ostalim silama. Ali sve je skriveno od nas, svemir je to sakrio ultimativnim plaštom nevidljivosti, zato ne znamo što se tamo događa.
CA: So there's a smaller one of these in our own galaxy. Can we go back to our own beautiful galaxy? This is the Milky Way, this is home. And somewhere in the middle of that there's another one, which you're trying to find as well.
CA: Dakle, postoji manja crna rupa u našoj galaksiji. Možemo li se vratiti na našu predivnu galaksiju? Ovo je Mliječni put, ovo je naš dom. I negdje u njegovom središtu nalazi se još jedna crna rupa, koju također pokušavate pronaći.
SD: We already know it's there, and we've already taken data on it. And we're working on those data right now. So we hope to have something in the near future, I can't say when.
SD: Već znamo da je tamo i već smo prikupili podatke o njoj. Trenutno radimo na tim podacima. Tako da se nadamo da ćemo u budućnosti imati nešto, ne mogu reći kada.
CA: It's way closer but also a lot smaller, maybe the similar kind of size to what we saw?
CA: Puno je bliža, ali također i puno manja, možda slične veličine kao ona koju smo vidjeli?
SD: Right. So it turns out that the black hole in M87, that we saw before, is six and a half billion solar masses. But it's so far away that it appears a certain size. The black hole in the center of our galaxy is a thousand times less massive, but also a thousand times closer. So it looks the same angular size on the sky.
SD: Točno. Ispada da crna rupa u galaksiji M87, koju smo maloprije vidjeli, ima šest i pol milijardi masa Sunca. Ali je toliko udaljena da se čini određene veličine. Crna rupa u središtu naše galaksije je tisuću puta manje mase, ali je i tisuću puta bliža. Tako da ima istu prividnu veličinu na nebu.
CA: Finally, I guess, a nod to a remarkable group of people. Who are these guys?
CA: Završno, naklon za izvanrednu skupinu ljudi. Tko je ova ekipa?
SD: So these are only some of the team. We marveled at the resonance that this image has had. If you told me that it would be above the fold in all of these newspapers, I'm not sure I would have believed you, but it was. Because this is a great mystery, and it's inspiring for us, and I hope it's inspiring to everyone. But the more important thing is that this is just a small number of the team. We're 200 people strong with 60 institutes and 20 countries and regions. If you want to build a global telescope you need a global team. And this technique that we use of linking telescopes around the world kind of effortlessly sidesteps some of the issues that divide us. And as scientists, we naturally come together to do something like this.
SD: Dakle, ovo je samo dio ekipe. Divili smo se odazivu koji je ova slika imala. Da ste mi rekli da će biti na svim tim naslovnicama, nisam siguran da bih vam vjerovao, ali bila je. Zato jer je ovo velika misterija i inspirirala nas je i nadam se da je inspirirajuća za sve. Ali važnija stvar je da je ovo samo manji dio ekipe. Ima nas 200 u 60 instituta i 20 zemalja i regija. Ako želite napraviti globalni teleskop, morate imati globalnu ekipu. A tehnologija koju smo koristili umrežuje teleskope diljem svijeta i nekako lako zaobilazi kroz neke probleme koji nas dijele. I kao znanstvenicima prirodno nam je okupiti se kako bismo učinili nešto ovakvo.
CA: Wow, boy, that's inspiring for our whole team this week. Shep, thank you so much for what you did and for coming here.
CA: Ovo je inspirativno za svu našu ekipu koju imamo ovaj tjedan. Shep, puno ti hvala za ono što si napravio i što si došao.
SD: Thank you.
SD: Hvala tebi.
(Applause)
(Pljesak)