Chris Anderson: Welcome to TED.
克理斯•安德森(克): 歡迎來到 TED
Richard Branson: Thank you very much. The first TED has been great.
理查•布蘭森 (理):十分感謝。我的 TED 初體驗到目前都非常的棒。
CA: Have you met anyone interesting?
克:這次活動你碰到什麼有趣的人了嗎?
RB: Well, the nice thing about TED is everybody's interesting. I was very glad to see Goldie Hawn, because I had an apology to make to her. I'd had dinner with her about two years ago and I'd -- she had this big wedding ring and I put it on my finger and I couldn't get it off. And I went home to my wife that night and she wanted to know why I had another woman's big, massive, big wedding ring on my finger. And, anyway, the next morning we had to go along to the jeweler and get it cut off. So -- (Laughter) -- so apologies to Goldie.
理:這個嘛,TED 最棒的一點就是每個人都很有趣。 見到歌蒂•韓(美國女星),我很開心 因為我對她有點過意不去, 大約兩年前,我有幸跟她共進晚餐, 她有一個很大的結婚戒指,我戴在自己手上一試,結果摘不下來了。 晚上我回到家, 見到我妻子,她想知道為何我手上有另一個女人的 碩大無比的結婚戒指。 不管怎麼樣, 第二天我們不得不去珠寶商那兒 把戒指剪斷。 所以,(笑聲) 對不起,歌蒂。
CA: That's pretty good. So, we're going to put up some slides of some of your companies here. You've started one or two in your time. So, you know, Virgin Atlantic, Virgin Records -- I guess it all started with a magazine called Student. And then, yes, all these other ones as well. I mean, how do you do this?
克:很有意思的故事 現在我們放幾張投影片 是有關你的幾家公司的 當年你從一兩家公司起家, 就是維珍航空和維珍唱片 我聽說這一切,都是從一本名為《學生》的雜誌開始的, 後來發展到今天的一切。我想問的是,你是怎麼做到的?
RB: I read all these sort of TED instructions: you must not talk about your own business, and this, and now you ask me. So I suppose you're not going to be able to kick me off the stage, since you asked the question. (Laughter)
理:我讀了 TED 演講指南, 上面說不能談自己生意上的事, 現在你倒來問我, 要是我回答, 你應該不會把我趕下臺吧? 因為問題是由你起頭的。 (笑聲)
CA: It depends what the answer is though.
克:那就要看你怎麼回答了。
RB: No, I mean, I think I learned early on that if you can run one company, you can really run any companies. I mean, companies are all about finding the right people, inspiring those people, you know, drawing out the best in people. And I just love learning and I'm incredibly inquisitive and I love taking on, you know, the status quo and trying to turn it upside down. So I've seen life as one long learning process. And if I see -- you know, if I fly on somebody else's airline and find the experience is not a pleasant one, which it wasn't, 21 years ago, then I'd think, well, you know, maybe I can create the kind of airline that I'd like to fly on. And so, you know, so got one secondhand 747 from Boeing and gave it a go.
理:不,我的意思是,我早年學到,要是你能經營一家公司 你就可以經營任何公司 我的意思是,經營公司的關鍵,就是要找到合適的人, 激發他們,要知道,就是使他們發揮各自最佳的優勢。 而且,我樂於學習,還很不恥下問, 要知道我很喜歡挑戰舊有的窠臼, 喜歡顛覆傳統。 所以生活對我來說是一種學習過程 , 要知道,就像那天我坐在別人的航班上 感覺不怎麼自在,真的不舒服, 那是 21 年前, 我當時想,也許我能 創造一家讓人樂於搭乘的航空公司。 後來,我買了架二手波音 747,小試一把
CA: Well, that was a bizarre thing, because you made this move that a lot of people advised you was crazy. And in fact, in a way, it almost took down your empire at one point. I had a conversation with one of the investment bankers who, at the time when you basically sold Virgin Records and invested heavily in Virgin Atlantic, and his view was that you were trading, you know, the world's fourth biggest record company for the twenty-fifth biggest airline and that you were out of your mind. Why did you do that?
克:呃,這真是一件奇怪的事。 一堆人都認為你瘋了才會這麼做。 事實上,這一舉動差點毀掉你半邊江山 。 一次我和一個投資銀行家聊天, 那時候,你基本上已經賣掉維珍唱片公司 重點投資維珍航空, 那銀行家覺得 用世界上第四大唱片公司 換來排名第 25 的航空公司,你肯定腦子出問題了。 你為什麼會那樣做?
RB: Well, I think that there's a very thin dividing line between success and failure. And I think if you start a business without financial backing, you're likely to go the wrong side of that dividing line. We had -- we were being attacked by British Airways. They were trying to put our airline out of business, and they launched what's become known as the dirty tricks campaign. And I realized that the whole empire was likely to come crashing down unless I chipped in a chip. And in order to protect the jobs of the people who worked for the airline, and protect the jobs of the people who worked for the record company, I had to sell the family jewelry to protect the airline.
理:這個嘛,我覺得成敗僅一線之隔 而且,創建公司要是沒有雄厚的資金做後盾, 你很可能會被推向失敗的一邊。 我們當時面臨英國航空的競爭, 他們想讓我們倒閉, 他們發佈了一些下流的廣告文宣, 當時,我意識到,我的帝國很可能會毀於一旦。 除非我另闢蹊徑, 為了保住航空公司員工們的飯碗, 同時也保住唱片公司員工的飯碗, 我不得不顧全大局變賣家產以保住航空公司。
CA: Post-Napster, you're looking like a bit of a genius, actually, for that as well.
克:後 Napster(一種線上音樂服務)時代作風, 此舉還真是天才。
RB: Yeah, as it turned out, it proved to be the right move. But, yeah, it was sad at the time, but we moved on.
理:是啊, 現在看來這可真是明智之舉。 但當時可是挺傷心的,但我們勇於向前邁進。
CA: Now, you use the Virgin brand a lot and it seems like you're getting synergy from one thing to the other. What does the brand stand for in your head?
克:現在你的維珍品牌涉及範圍廣泛, 看起來你的各個企業彼此之間是互利共生,具有加成作用的。 在你心中維珍品牌代表的是什麼呢?
RB: Well, I like to think it stands for quality, that you know, if somebody comes across a Virgin company, they --
理:我覺得維珍就是品質的代言, 要知道,如果有人恰巧看到維珍旗下的一家公司,他們會 ...
CA: They are quality, Richard. Come on now, everyone says quality. Spirit?
克:維珍就是品質,理查,行行好,人人都說品質,精神層面呢?
RB: No, but I was going to move on this. We have a lot of fun and I think the people who work for it enjoy it. As I say, we go in and shake up other industries, and I think, you know, we do it differently and I think that industries are not quite the same as a result of Virgin attacking the market.
理:不是的,但我馬上就會談到這一點 我們的工作中充滿樂子,我覺得員工們都相當樂在其中。 就像我說的,我們入行就是要撼動其他的行業, 並且我認為,要知道,我們的方法是很與眾不同的, 因為維珍進軍了他們的市場, 這些行業從此開始發生了改變。
CA: I mean, there are a few launches you've done where the brand maybe hasn't worked quite as well. I mean, Virgin Brides -- what happened there? (Laughter)
克:我的意思是,你創立的公司有沒有 運營情況不佳的, 比如:維珍新娘,它的現狀怎麼解釋? (笑聲)
RB: We couldn't find any customers. (Laughter) (Applause)
理:我們壓根就找不到顧客。 (笑聲) (掌聲)
CA: I was actually also curious why -- I think you missed an opportunity with your condoms launch. You called it Mates. I mean, couldn't you have used the Virgin brand for that as well? Ain't virgin no longer, or something.
克:我很好奇的是, 我覺得你在保險套商品的發行上錯失了一次機會,你將其命名為「伴侶」(Mates) 我是說,你為什麼不把它也納入維珍名下呢? 是因為不再是處子之身(維珍 virgin 原文意為處子之身),或類似的理由嗎?
RB: Again, we may have had problems finding customers. I mean, we had -- often, when you launch a company and you get customer complaints, you know, you can deal with them. But about three months after the launch of the condom company, I had a letter, a complaint, and I sat down and wrote a long letter back to this lady apologizing profusely. But obviously, there wasn't a lot I could do about it. And then six months later, or nine months after the problem had taken, I got this delightful letter with a picture of the baby asking if I'd be godfather, which I became. So, it all worked out well.
理:同樣,這樣做就很難會有人光顧啦。 我是說,我們剛開業時總是會收到顧客的抱怨, 這些是可以應付得了的。 但在保險套公司運營了三個月後, 我們收到一 封信,一封投訴信, 後來,我坐下來寫了一封很長的信並向這位女士致以最誠摯的歉意, 但很明顯, 除此以外我也做不了什麼, 問題出現的六個月後,也許是九個月後, 我收到一封令人愉快的回信,信上附了一張嬰兒的照片, 詢問我是否願意做這孩子的教父,我欣然答應, 所以事情進展地還算順利 。
CA: Really? You should have brought a picture. That's wonderful.
克:真的? 你應該帶張照片來的。這真是棒極了。
RB: I should have.
理:我是應該帶照片來的。
CA: So, just help us with some of the numbers. I mean, what are the numbers on this? I mean, how big is the group overall? How much -- what's the total revenue?
克:那麼,幫我們搞清楚一些數據吧。 我是說,這些數字是多少呢? 這整個集團到底有多大? 盈收是多少呢?
RB: It's about 25 billion dollars now, in total.
理:現在總共大概 250 億美元吧。
CA: And how many employees?
克:有多少員工呢?
RB: About 55,000.
理:大約 5 萬 5 千人。
CA: So, you've been photographed in various ways at various times and never worrying about putting your dignity on the line or anything like that. What was that? Was that real?
克:不同場合下你上鏡無數, 但你從沒思考過自己在媒體上的形象問題。 這是怎麼回事?是真的嗎?
RB: Yeah. We were launching a megastore in Los Angeles, I think. No, I mean, I think -- CA: But is that your hair? RB: No. CA: What was that one?
理:千真萬確。我們在洛杉磯開了一家巨型商店, 不,我是指 ... 克:那真的是你的頭髮嗎? 理:不。 克:這又是怎麼回事?
RB: Dropping in for tea.
理:抵達一個茶會場合。
CA: OK. (Laughter)
克:好吧 (笑聲)
RB: Ah, that was quite fun. That was a wonderful car-boat in which --
克:挺有意思的。那個有趣的車船裡 ...
CA: Oh, that car that we -- actually we -- it was a TEDster event there, I think. Is that -- could you still pause on that one actually, for a minute? (Laughter)
理:噢,那部車,事實上,我們 ... 這輛車是一個 TEDster 做出來的。 那個不會是 ... 你能在這投影片上多停留幾秒嗎? (笑聲)
RB: It's a tough job, isn't it?
理:這是個困難的工作,不是嗎?
CA: I mean, it is a tough job. (Laughter) When I first came to America, I used to try this with employees as well and they kind of -- they have these different rules over here, it's very strange.
克:的確是挺困難的? (笑聲) 剛到美國時,我還習於與員工們一起這麼做呢, 但是他們,他們這邊的規矩挺不一樣, 真是非常奇怪。
RB: I know, I have -- the lawyers say you mustn't do things like that, but --
理:是啊, 我的律師告訴我千萬別這麼做,但是 ...
CA: I mean, speaking of which, tell us about --
克:說到這個,跟大家說說 ...
RB: "Pammy" we launched, you know -- mistakenly thought we could take on Coca-Cola, and we launched a cola bottle called "The Pammy" and it was shaped a bit like Pamela Anderson. But the trouble is, it kept on tipping over, but -- (Laughter)
理:你聽說過我們所推出的帕米 (Pammy) 嗎, 錯以為可以擊敗可口可樂, 我們推出的瓶裝碳酸飲料叫帕米, 瓶體形狀有點像帕米拉•安德森(美國豔星)。 但問題是瓶體上半部太重,老是翻倒,但 ... (笑聲)
CA: Designed by Philippe Starck perhaps?
克:搞不好是菲力浦•斯塔克(著名法國設計師)設計的?
RB: Of course.
理:真的是這樣。
CA: So, we'll just run a couple more pictures here. Virgin Brides. Very nice. And, OK, so stop there. This was -- you had some award I think?
克:我們再多看幾張圖片。維珍新娘。很不錯。 好的,這張。我猜,你大概得了什麼獎吧?
RB: Yeah, well, 25 years earlier, we'd launched the Sex Pistols' "God Save The Queen," and I'd certainly never expected that 25 years later -- that she'd actually knight us. But somehow, she must have had a forgetful memory, I think.
理:是的,25 年前我們推出了《性手槍》(Sex Pistols 為英國龐克樂團) 《天佑吾王》單曲,我怎麼也沒有想到, 25 年後女王竟然授予我爵士頭銜。 我覺得她一定記性不太好,
CA: Well, God saved her and you got your just reward. Do you like to be called Sir Richard, or how?
克:不妨想成是,上天真的保佑了女王,所以你得到了應有的獎勵。 你喜歡被人稱做理查爵士嗎?還是應該如合稱呼比較好?
RB: Nobody's ever called me Sir Richard. Occasionally in America, I hear people saying Sir Richard and think there's some Shakespearean play taking place. But nowhere else anyway.
理:壓根沒人會稱我為爵士, 在美國偶爾會聽到有人那樣叫, 但我總是會覺得,是不是附近某處莎翁舞臺劇正在上演。 但也僅限於美國,除此之外,別無它處。
CA: OK. So can you use your knighthood for anything or is it just ...
克:好吧, 你的頭銜能為你撈到任何好處嗎,還是僅僅 …
RB: No. I suppose if you're having problems getting a booking in a restaurant or something, that might be worth using it.
理:沒有, 但我猜當你有什麼困難的時候, 例如:餐廳訂不到位,或是別的什麼。 倒是值得一試。
CA: You know, it's not Richard Branson. It's Sir Richard Branson.
克:要知道,這可不是一般的理查•布蘭森,是理查•布蘭森爵士呀。
RB: I'll go get the secretary to use it.
理:我會讓我的秘書開始這樣叫我的。
CA: OK. So let's look at the space thing. I think, with us, we've got a video that shows what you're up to, and Virgin Galactic up in the air. (Video) So that's the Bert Rutan designed spaceship?
克:好的, 再來看看你的太空計畫。 我覺得,我們有個影片,可以告訴我們你下一步想幹什麼, 把維珍星際航向宇宙。 這是伯特•魯坦 (美國航太工程師)設計的太空船嗎?
RB: Yeah, it'll be ready in -- well, ready in 12 months and then we do 12 months extensive testing. And then 24 months from now, people will be able to take a ride into space.
理:是啊, 再過個 12 個月,就可以準備升空了, 接下來再做 12 個月的高強度的試飛, 就是說再過 24 個月, 一般民眾就可以遨遊太空了。
CA: So this interior is Philippe Starcke designed?
克:那麼室內設計是由菲力浦•斯塔克經手的嗎?
RB: Philippe has done the -- yeah, quite a bit of it: the logos and he's building the space station in New Mexico. And basically, he's just taken an eye and the space station will be one giant eye, so when you're in space, you ought to be able to see this massive eye looking up at you. And when you land, you'll be able to go back into this giant eye. But he's an absolute genius when it comes to design.
理:菲力浦設計了一部分,嗯,相當大的一部分, 標誌是他設計的,現在他在新墨西哥州建造太空發射站 基本上他的想法是一隻眼睛, 太空發射站就是一隻巨眼, 所以,當你在太空中, 你應該可以看見這巨眼向上眺望著你。 回程時,你將會回到這隻巨眼內。 談到設計,他真是個天才。
CA: But you didn't have him design the engine?
克:但你可沒讓他設計引擎啊?
RB: Philippe is quite erratic, so I think that he wouldn't be the best person to design the engine, no.
理:菲力浦有很多鬼點子。 所以我覺得他不是設計引擎的最佳人選。
CA: He gave a wonderful talk here two days ago.
克:兩天前,菲力浦帶給我們一段精彩的演說。
RB: Yeah? No, he is a --
理:真的嗎? 不會的,他是個 ...
CA: Well, some people found it wonderful, some people found it completely bizarre. But, I personally found it wonderful.
克:有人覺得講得很好, 有人覺得很怪異,但, 就我個人而言,我很欣賞。
RB: He's a wonderful enthusiast, which is why I love him. But ...
理:他是個妙不可言、充滿激情的人,我很欣賞他。但 ...
CA: So, now, you've always had this exploration bug in you. Have you ever regretted that?
克:那麼, 你現在整天都在想著星際探索, 你後悔過嗎?
RB: Many times. I mean, I think with the ballooning and boating expeditions we've done in the past. Well, I got pulled out of the sea I think six times by helicopters, so -- and each time, I didn't expect to come home to tell the tale. So in those moments, you certainly wonder what you're doing up there or --
理:數不勝數。 我的意思是,以前的熱氣球啊、船啊之類的探險,人們都做過了, 我總共有六次從海面上被救援直昇機救起的經驗, 每次,我都沒預期我還能回家講述這段經驗。 在那些命懸一線之際, 你一定會懷疑自己在這兒幹什麼 …
CA: What was the closest you got to -- when did you think, this is it, I might be on my way out?
克:你最驚險的經歷是什麼? 哪次有讓你覺得大限已到、死期將近的感覺?
RB: Well, I think the balloon adventures were -- each one was, each one, actually, I think we came close. And, I mean, first of all we -- nobody had actually crossed the Atlantic in a hot air balloon before, so we had to build a hot air balloon that was capable of flying in the jet stream, and we weren't quite sure, when a balloon actually got into the jet stream, whether it would actually survive the 200, 220 miles an hour winds that you can find up there. And so, just the initial lift off from Sugarloaf to cross the Atlantic, as we were pushing into the jet stream, this enormous balloon -- the top of the balloon ended up going at a couple of hundred miles an hour, the capsule that we were in at the bottom was going at maybe two miles an hour, and it just took off. And it was like holding onto a thousand horses. And we were just crossing every finger, praying that the balloon would hold together, which, fortunately, it did. But the ends of all those balloon trips were, you know -- something seemed to go wrong every time, and on that particular occasion, the more experienced balloonist who was with me jumped, and left me holding on for dear life. (Laughter)
理:我覺得熱氣球探險,次次都是, 每次,實際上,都挺險的, 首先,我們 以前從來沒人坐熱氣球橫跨大西洋過, 所以我們必須設計出能在同溫層噴射氣流中航行的熱氣球, 我們自己也是疑慮重重, 當氣球行駛在噴射氣流中時, 它能否挺過時速 200, 220 哩的高空氣流。 所以,當氣球從 Sugarloaf 起飛要橫越大西洋時 就在上升到噴射氣流區時,那個巨大的氣球 頂端以時速數百哩在前進, 但底部的座艙時速卻大概只有 2 哩。 這還僅僅是起飛呢。 就好像拉著上千匹馬一般。 我們只好祈求一切順利, 祈禱氣球能保持完整,幸運的是,它辦到了。 但每次氣球探險之旅的結果,你知道, 每次都會出差錯, 有一次連跟我一起駕駛氣球的的老手, 都自己跳傘逃生,棄我自生自滅。 (笑聲)
CA: Did he tell you to jump, or he just said, "I'm out of here!" and ...
克:他有叫你也跳傘嗎?還是只是說:「我走嘍!」,然後 ...
RB: No, he told me jump, but once his weight had gone, the balloon just shot up to 12,000 feet and I ...
理:不,他有叫我跳傘,但是一旦他跳出艙外,瞬間少了一個人的重量, 氣球就直竄一萬二千呎的高空,然後我 ...
CA: And you inspired an Ian McEwan novel I think with that.
克:你的那次冒險給了伊恩•麥克伊旺(英國作家)靈感。
RB: Yeah. No, I put on my oxygen mask and stood on top of the balloon, with my parachute, looking at the swirling clouds below, trying to pluck up my courage to jump into the North Sea, which -- and it was a very, very, very lonely few moments. But, anyway, we managed to survive it.
裏:對,不是的,我帶上氧氣面罩站在氣球頂端, 背上背著降落傘,低頭看著腳下如漩渦一般的雲, 嘗試鼓起勇氣,一頭跳進北海,那 ... 那一刻真的是太太孤單了, 但不管怎麼說,我們還是活了下來。
CA: Did you jump? Or it came down in the end?
克:你跳了嗎?還是氣球最後安全著陸了?
RB: Well, I knew I had about half an hour's fuel left, and I also knew that the chances were that if I jumped, I would only have a couple of minutes of life left. So I climbed back into the capsule and just desperately tried to make sure that I was making the right decision. And wrote some notes to my family. And then climbed back up again, looked down at those clouds again, climbed back into the capsule again. And then finally, just thought, there's a better way. I've got, you know, this enormous balloon above me, it's the biggest parachute ever, why not use it? And so I managed to fly the balloon down through the clouds, and about 50 feet, before I hit the sea, threw myself over. And the balloon hit the sea and went shooting back up to 10,000 feet without me. But it was a wonderful feeling being in that water and --
理:這個嘛,我知道我還有剩約足夠半小時飛行的燃料, 我也知道要是我跳的話, 我就只能再多活幾分鐘, 所以我又爬回駕駛艙,絕望地試著 思考這個選擇究竟是不是正確的。 我寫了幾張便箋給家人,然後又爬出艙外, 再度低頭看著這些雲朵 接著又回到駕駛艙。 終於想到, 還有一個更好的方法。 要知道,在我上頭有這麼一個大的氣球, 這可是有史以來最大的降落傘,為什麼不好好利用一下呢? 所以我就試著駕駛氣球穿過雲層, 等到距離海平面 50 呎左右的時候,我就跳下去了, 氣球隨後也撞擊到海面上, 然後重新升回萬呎高空,只不過我已經不在氣球上了。 不過人在海水中的感覺挺好的,而且 ...
CA: What did you write to your family?
克:給家人的紙條上寫的是什麼?
RB: Just what you would do in a situation like that: just I love you very much. And I'd already written them a letter before going on this trip, which -- just in case anything had happened. But fortunately, they never had to use it.
理:不過是人人在那種情況下都會寫的東西, 像是:我很愛你們, 其實,在我出發前,就已經給他們寫了一封信, 以防萬一。 不過幸運的是,他們從來不用拆開來看,
CA: Your companies have had incredible PR value out of these heroics. The years -- and until I stopped looking at the polls, you were sort of regarded as this great hero in the U.K. and elsewhere. And cynics might say, you know, this is just a smart business guy doing what it takes to execute his particular style of marketing. How much was the PR value part of this? RB: Well, of course, the PR experts said that as an airline owner, the last thing you should be doing is heading off in balloons and boats, and crashing into the seas. (Laughter)
克:你公司的公關部門可是很看重這種英雄式的冒險精神啊。 這些年來,直到我最後一次看民意調查, 不論在英國國內外,你都可算得上是大英雄, 那些憤世嫉俗的傢伙可能會說,你只不過是個很有商業頭腦的人, 你的所做所為不過是市場行銷的手段罷了。 這其中的公 關成分有多大呢? 理:當然了,公關專家會說作為航空公司的所有人, 最不該做的事,莫過於跑到熱氣球啊,船啊,什麼的上去冒險, 還一頭栽到海裏。 (笑聲)
CA: They have a point, Richard.
克:他們說的沒錯,理查。
RB: In fact, I think our airline took a full page ad at the time saying, you know, come on, Richard, there are better ways of crossing the Atlantic. (Laughter)
理:實際上,我們的航空公司做了一整頁的廣告說, 你知道的,拜託!理查, 橫越大西洋有更好的方法! (笑聲)
CA: To do all this, you must have been a genius from the get-go, right?
克:要做到所有的這些 你一定是個天才,沒錯吧?
RB: Well, I won't contradict that. (Laughter)
理:我不會否認這說法 。 (笑聲)
CA: OK, this isn't exactly hardball. OK.
克:好吧, 我們不是在玩躲避球,好吧。
Didn't -- weren't you just terrible at school?
克:你當年是不是 ... 是不是學業成績很糟糕?
RB: I was dyslexic. I had no understanding of schoolwork whatsoever. I certainly would have failed IQ tests. And it was one of the reasons I left school when I was 15 years old. And if I -- if I'm not interested in something, I don't grasp it. As somebody who's dyslexic, you also have some quite bizarre situations. I mean, for instance, I've had to -- you know, I've been running the largest group of private companies in Europe, but haven't been able to know the difference between net and gross. And so the board meetings have been fascinating. (Laughter) And so, it's like, good news or bad news? And generally, the people would say, oh, well that's bad news.
理:我有閱讀困難,我壓根不懂學校教的玩意兒。 我的智商測驗成績一定很低。 這也是我 15 歲就輟學的原因之一。 要是 ... 要是我對什麼沒興趣,我肯定學不起來。 對於一個有閱讀困難的人來說, 你會遭遇到某些詭異的狀況。 我的意思是,比如,我不得不 ... 我一直以來經營著歐洲最大的私人企業, 但一直我都沒搞懂淨利和毛利的差別, 所以董事會上總是很精彩。 (笑聲) 所以,這到底是好事還是壞事? 通常人們會說,噢,那可不是什麼好事。
CA: But just to clarify, the 25 billion dollars is gross, right? That's gross? (Laughter)
克:澄清一 下,250 億是毛利,是毛利對吧? (笑聲)
RB: Well, I hope it's net actually, having -- (Laughter) -- I've got it right.
理:我倒希望是淨利。 (笑聲) 我應該沒搞錯吧。
CA: No, trust me, it's gross. (Laughter)
克:不,相信我,是毛利。 (笑聲)
RB: So, when I turned 50, somebody took me outside the boardroom and said, "Look Richard, here's a -- let me draw on a diagram. Here's a net in the sea, and the fish have been pulled from the sea into this net. And that's the profits you've got left over in this little net, everything else is eaten." And I finally worked it all out. (Laughter) (Applause)
理:在我五十歲那年某一天,有人把我拉出董事會門外,說: 「聽著,理查,讓我畫圖解釋給你聽, 海裏有一張網, 從海中把魚捕進網裡, 這張小網裏剩下的是你的盈利, 其他的都被吃光了。」 到最後,我總算弄清楚了。 (笑聲) (掌聲)
CA: But, I mean, at school -- so as well as being, you know, doing pretty miserably academically, but you were also the captain of the cricket and football teams. So you were kind of a -- you were a natural leader, but just a bit of a ... Were you a rebel then, or how would you ...
克:但是, 在學校,雖說身為 成績不太理想的學生, 但你是板球和足球校隊隊長, 所以,你是那種天生的領導人物, 但有有那麼點 ... 有點叛逆,你自己怎麼看…
RB: Yeah, I think I was a bit of a maverick and -- but I ... And I was, yeah, I was fortunately good at sport, and so at least I had something to excel at, at school.
理:是,我是有點標新立異,但是,我 ... 幸運的是,我還挺有運動細胞的, 所以至少在學校的某些領域,我可以竭盡所長。
CA: And some bizarre things happened just earlier in your life. I mean, there's the story about your mother allegedly dumping you in a field, aged four, and saying "OK, walk home." Did this really happen?
克:你年輕的時候經歷了不少怪事, 我的意思是,關於你母親有段小故事, 據說,她把當時只有四歲的你棄于田野,然後說:「自己走回家去吧。」 這是真的嗎?
RB: She was, you know, she felt that we needed to stand on our own two feet from an early age. So she did things to us, which now she'd be arrested for, such as pushing us out of the car, and telling us to find our own way to Granny's, about five miles before we actually got there. And making us go on wonderful, long bike rides. And we were never allowed to watch television and the like.
理:是的,要知道, 她認為我們從小就應該自食其力, 所以她才會這樣做,換作今天,她准會被送到警察局, 例如:她把我們趕下車, 讓我們自己找到去祖母家的路, 那地方距離祖母的家還有五哩遠。 還讓我們騎自行車去很遠的地方。 她也從來不讓我們看電視什麼的。
CA: But is there a risk here? I mean, there's a lot of people in the room who are wealthy, and they've got kids, and we've got this dilemma about how you bring them up. Do you look at the current generation of kids coming up and think they're too coddled, they don't know what they've got, we're going to raise a generation of privileged ...
克:這麼做也挺有風險的吧? 我是說,在座有許多人,家境不錯也有孩子的, 在把孩子代大的過程中,常常會遇到兩難。 你覺得現在的孩子是不是太嬌生慣養了, 沒有什麼感恩之心, 這代人會不會變成坐擁…
RB: No, I think if you're bringing up kids, you just want to smother them with love and praise and enthusiasm. So I don't think you can mollycoddle your kids too much really.
理:不, 我覺得當你在教導孩子的時候, 只需灌輸他們愛、鼓勵與熱誠, 因此我真的不認為你能過度溺愛孩子。
CA: You didn't turn out too bad, I have to say, I'm ... Your headmaster said to you -- I mean he found you kind of an enigma at your school -- he said, you're either going to be a millionaire or go to prison, and I'm not sure which. Which of those happened first? (Laughter)
克:你成長得很好,我必須承認,我覺得 ... 你的校長對你說 ... 我的意思是,他覺得你在學校不太合群 他說,你日後要麼成為百萬富翁,要麼鋃鐺入獄, 而他也不確定你會朝那一方面發展。 那麼,上面兩項,哪一項先發生? (笑聲)
RB: Well, I've done both. I think I went to prison first. I was actually prosecuted under two quite ancient acts in the U.K. I was prosecuted under the 1889 Venereal Diseases Act and the 1916 Indecent Advertisements Act. On the first occasion, for mentioning the word venereal disease in public, which -- we had a center where we would help young people who had problems. And one of the problems young people have is venereal disease. And there's an ancient law that says you can't actually mention the word venereal disease or print it in public. So the police knocked on the door, and told us they were going to arrest us if we carried on mentioning the word venereal disease. We changed it to social diseases and people came along with acne and spots, but nobody came with VD any more. So, we put it back to VD and promptly got arrested. And then subsequently, "Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols," the word bollocks, the police decided was a rude word and so we were arrested for using the word bollocks on the Sex Pistols' album. And John Mortimer, the playwright, defended us. And he asked if I could find a linguistics expert to come up with a different definition of the word bollocks. And so I rang up Nottingham University, and I asked to talk to the professor of linguistics. And he said, "Look, bollocks is not a -- has nothing to do with balls whatsoever. It's actually a nickname given to priests in the eighteenth century." (Laughter) And he went, "Furthermore, I'm a priest myself." And so I said, "Would you mind coming to the court?" And he said he'd be delighted. And I said -- and he said, "Would you like me to wear my dog collar?" And I said, "Yes, definitely. Please." (Laughter)
理:我兩樣都做到了,不過入獄在先。 我是被兩個英國相當古老的法案定罪的, 根據 1889 年性病法案 還有根據 1916 年猥瑣廣告法案我被定罪。 觸犯第一個法條是因為我在公眾場合提起「性病」這個字眼, 那是在一個青年輔導中心。 青少年的問題之一就是性病。 有個古老的法案規定, 禁止在公共場合口頭或書面提起「性病」二字。 所以,警察找上門來,說如果我們繼續提起這個字眼, 要逮捕我們, 我們於是改口稱之為「社會病」, 人們會長青春痘或暗瘡, 但沒人會得性病。 所以,一旦我們又冠以老叫法就被捕了。 緊接著, 《去他的胡謅八扯,我們是性手槍》(英國朋克樂隊性手槍專輯名)問世, 員警認為「胡謅八扯」不雅,所以我再次被拘留, 就因為在專輯名稱中使用那個字眼。 約翰•蒙泰莫(英國作家、法官)為我們辯護, 他問我能否找個語言學家, 想出 bollocks(一意為胡謅八扯)的其他意思 因此我打電話給諾丁漢大學, 想跟語言學教授談談, 那教授說,其實,bollocks 壓根兒沒「睾丸」的意思, 那只不過是 18 世紀人們給牧師取的綽號。 (笑聲) 他還說:「並且,我就是一個牧師。」 我問:「你能來法庭為我辯白嗎?」 他說他很樂意。我說 ... 他問到:「需要我戴牧師的白領子嗎(dog collar 又有狗項圈之意)?」 我說:「那太好了,麻煩您了…」 (笑聲)
CA: That's great.
克:真棒。
RB: So our key witness argued that it was actually "Never Mind the Priest, Here's the Sex Pistols." (Laughter) And the judge found us -- reluctantly found us not guilty, so ... (Laughter)
理:所以,我們的重點證人辯證道,其實專輯名稱是 《去他的牧師,我們是性手槍》 (笑聲) 然後法官裁決,很不情願的裁定我們無罪, (笑聲)
CA: That is outrageous. (Applause) So seriously, is there a dark side? A lot of people would say there's no way that someone could put together this incredible collection of businesses without knifing a few people in the back, you know, doing some ugly things. You've been accused of being ruthless. There was a nasty biography written about you by someone. Is any of it true? Is there an element of truth in it?
克:還真是神了。 (掌聲) 不過說真的,這事有負面影響嗎? 很多人都說,一個人 單槍匹馬根本沒法應付這麼龐大的集團, 除非背地裡捅某人幾刀, 就是,就是幹些不光彩的事。 你被人指控過心狠手辣, 有人寫過一本醜化你的傳記, 是真的嗎?那書裏面有真實的成分嗎?
RB: I don't actually think that the stereotype of a businessperson treading all over people to get to the top, generally speaking, works. I think if you treat people well, people will come back and come back for more. And I think all you have in life is your reputation and it's a very small world. And I actually think that the best way of becoming a successful business leader is dealing with people fairly and well, and I like to think that's how we run Virgin.
理:我並不認為那些刻板印象有用, 從商的人不擇手段,達到目的的說法, 在通常的情況下,不是很有說服力。 我覺得只要你對人不薄, 人們就會回來,並且多次回來。 我覺得人生在世,信譽為本, 這世界說小很小, 而且我認為做一個成功的商人,最好的辦法是 做一個講信譽、待人公正的人。 我認為我是這樣在經營維珍集團的。
CA: And what about the people who love you and who see you spending -- you keep getting caught up in these new projects, but it almost feels like you're addicted to launching new stuff. You get excited by an idea and, kapow! I mean, do you think about life balance? How do your family feel about each time you step into something big and new?
克:那對於愛戴你的人呢? 他們眼睜睜的看著你一直推出新計畫? 感覺起來你好像對於推出新事物上癮了。 你只要一心血來潮,碰! 你有思考過工作與生活平衡的問題嗎? 你家人怎麼看待 每次當你著手新的大計畫時?
RB: I also believe that being a father's incredibly important, so from the time the kids were very young, you know, when they go on holiday, I go on holiday with them. And so we spend a very good sort of three months away together. Yes, I'll, you know, be in touch. We're very lucky, we have this tiny little island in the Caribbean and we can -- so I can take them there and we can bring friends, and we can play together, but I can also keep in touch with what's going on.
理:我也認為當個好爸爸是件很重要的事, 所以從我的孩子很還很小時, 時不時當他們出去度假時,我就跟著一起去。 我們就一起渡過了 3 個月的快樂假期, 是啊,我會,你知道,保持聯繫。 我們是很幸運的,我們在加勒比海有個小島,我們可以 ... 我可以帶他們去哪兒,還可以邀請朋友們 一起玩樂, 同時我也可以與公司保持聯繫,以了解業務進展。
CA: You started talking in recent years about this term capitalist philanthropy. What is that?
克:你近年來開始演講, 主題都是關於資本家的慈善活動。 為什麼?
RB: Capitalism has been proven to be a system that works. You know, the alternative, communism, has not worked. But the problem with capitalism is extreme wealth ends up in the hands of a few people, and therefore extreme responsibility, I think, goes with that wealth. And I think it's important that the individuals, who are in that fortunate position, do not end up competing for bigger and bigger boats, and bigger and bigger cars, but, you know, use that money to either create new jobs or to tackle issues around the world.
理:資本主義被證實是一個能成功運作的系統。 要知道, 另一種,也就是社會主義,不怎麼管用。 但資本主義的問題是, 財富高度集中在少數人手中, 因此跟隨財富而來的是責任的重擔。 因此我認為,對於這些 幸運的人來說,要避免互相比較 看誰的船大,誰的車好, 要知道,那錢可以創造更多的工作機會, 或解決世界上很多亟待解決的問題。
CA: And what are the issues that you worry about most, care most about, want to turn your resources toward?
克:你最關心的、最擔心的、 最想用你的資源解決的問題是什麼呢?
RB: Well, there's -- I mean there's a lot of issues. I mean global warming certainly is a massive threat to mankind and we are putting a lot of time and energy into, A, trying to come up with alternative fuels and, B, you know, we just launched this prize, which is really a prize in case we don't get an answer on alternative fuels, in case we don't actually manage to get the carbon emissions cut down quickly, and in case we go through the tipping point. We need to try to encourage people to come up with a way of extracting carbon out of the Earth's atmosphere. And we just -- you know, there weren't really people working on that before, so we wanted people to try to -- all the best brains in the world to start thinking about that, and also to try to extract the methane out of the Earth's atmosphere as well. And actually, we've had about 15,000 people fill in the forms saying they want to give it a go. And so we only need one, so we're hopeful.
理:這個嘛,這個世界存在許多問題。 世界暖化絕對是威脅人類生存的一大問題, 我們注入大量的時間與精力,希望 要麼,找到一種可替代能源, 要麼,我們推出一個大獎,一個真正的大獎, 以防我們找不到可替代的能源, 以防我們沒法控制溫室氣體排放, 以防事情已經遭到無法挽救時, 我們得鼓勵大家另闢蹊徑, 萃取出大氣中的溫室氣體。 我們得,要知道,以前沒什麼人 做過這些事,所以我們想讓人們嘗試 匯集世上最優秀的頭腦,集思廣益, 同時還要把甲烷 也一併從大氣層中萃取出來。 有大概 1 萬 5 千人報名, 想參與其中, 既然我們只需要一個解決方案,我們對未來還是懷抱希望的。
CA: And you're also working in Africa on a couple of projects?
克:同時你在非洲也有幾個計畫?
RB: Yes, I mean, we've got -- we're setting up something called the war room, which is maybe the wrong word. We're trying to -- maybe we'll change it -- but anyway, it's a war room to try to coordinate all the attack that's going on in Africa, all the different social problems in Africa, and try to look at best practices. So, for instance, there's a doctor in Africa that's found that if you give a mother antiretroviral drugs at 24 weeks, when she's pregnant, that the baby will not have HIV when it's born. And so disseminating that information to around the rest of Africa is important.
理:是的,我們展開一項叫 戰情室,好像這名字取得不太好, 我們嘗試,也許名字得改,不管怎樣,現在叫戰情室, 這個計畫試圖協調、解決非洲的各個衝突 各個社會問題, 並尋求最佳替代方案。 比如, 非洲有一個醫生發現, 給懷孕 24 周的孕婦服用抗反轉錄病毒藥物, 產下的嬰兒就不會帶有愛滋病毒。 因此將這個發現傳播 到非洲的其他地方是極為重要的。
CA: The war room sounds, it sounds powerful and dramatic. And is there a risk that the kind of the business heroes of the West get so excited about -- I mean, they're used to having an idea, getting stuff done, and they believe profoundly in their ability to make a difference in the world. Is there a risk that we go to places like Africa and say, we've got to fix this problem and we can do it, I've got all these billions of dollars, you know, da, da, da -- here's the big idea. And kind of take a much more complex situation and actually end up making a mess of it. Do you worry about that?
克:戰情室,這名字很有力也很戲劇化。 作為西方商場上的英雄,這樣做會不會有風險, 這樣地興奮。我的意思是,作為商人,早已習於各種點子 解決問題是家常便飯, 商人大都堅信,自己有能力改變世界。 我們到了像非洲這樣的地方,然後說, 我們要這個問題,而且我們能做到, 我們腰纏萬貫,你知道的,如此這般,會不會有風險? 心懷壯志,一心要解決複雜問題, 但到頭來卻弄得一團糟。你這樣擔心過嗎?
RB: Well, first of all, on this particular situation, we're actually -- we're working with the government on it. I mean, Thabo Mbeki's had his problems with accepting HIV and AIDS are related, but this is a way, I think, of him tackling this problem and instead of the world criticizing him, it's a way of working with him, with his government. It's important that if people do go to Africa and do try to help, they don't just go in there and then leave after a few years. It's got to be consistent. But I think business leaders can bring their entrepreneurial know-how and help governments approach things slightly differently. For instance, we're setting up clinics in Africa where we're going to be giving free antiretroviral drugs, free TB treatment and free malaria treatment. But we're also trying to make them self-sustaining clinics, so that people pay for some other aspects.
理:首先,就這一問題,我們實際上 正在和當地政府合作。 姆貝基 (南非前總統)雖有點難以接受 愛滋病與病毒的關聯性,但是有個方法。我認為, 讓他認清這個問題,而不是指責他, 這是與他合作的方法,與他的政府合作的方法。 如果人們能親自到非洲,身體力行,這會有很大幫助的。 不單單只是去待個幾年就回來的那種, 而是持而久之的那種。 但我覺得商界領袖可以把他們的企業技能融入, 幫助政府以不同角度切入問題。 比如,我們在非洲開設了診所, 我們將會提供 免費的抗反轉錄病毒藥物及肺結核治療, 還有免費的瘧疾治療。 同時我們也試圖讓這些診所自食其力, 所以病人還是要支付其他一些費用的。
CA: I mean a lot of cynics say about someone like yourself, or Bill Gates, or whatever, that this is really being -- it's almost driven by some sort of desire again, you know, for the right image, for guilt avoidance and not like a real philanthropic instinct. What would you say to them?
克:很多憤世嫉俗的人說,像你和比爾•蓋茨這樣的人 只不過是,基本上是受 回報驅使,就是,提高個人形象, 減輕罪惡感,而非所謂慈善家本能。 你會對這些人怎麼說呢?
RB: Well, I think that everybody -- people do things for a whole variety of different reasons and I think that, you know, when I'm on me deathbed, I will want to feel that I've made a difference to other people's lives. And that may be a selfish thing to think, but it's the way I've been brought up. I think if I'm in a position to radically change other people's lives for the better, I should do so.
理:我覺得,每個人 每個人的行為背後都是有原因的, 我覺得, 當我臨死在病床上的時候, 我希望覺得自己為世界做出了貢獻, 為他人貢獻, 這麼想也許挺自私的。 但我就是懷揣這信念長大的, 我覺得我有能力 大大地提高人們的生活品質, 我應該付諸行動。
CA: How old are you?
克:你年紀多大了?
RB: I'm 56.
理:56 歲了。
CA: I mean, the psychologist Erik Erikson says that -- as I understand him and I'm a total amateur -- but that during 30s, 40s people are driven by this desire to grow and that's where they get their fulfillment. 50s, 60s, the mode of operation shifts more to the quest for wisdom and a search for legacy. I mean, it seems like you're still a little bit in the growth phases, you're still doing these incredible new plans. How much do you think about legacy, and what would you like your legacy to be?
克:心理學家埃裏克森說過,並且我也贊同, 不過我並非專家,他說,人在30、40歲時 會渴望成長,這樣會達到滿足的境界。 到了 50、60 歲時,人們會渴望得到智慧, 並留下自己的貢獻。 好像你還處於渴望 成長的階段。 你還在著手開展新計畫, 你有多看重留名後世? 你希望自己的貢獻是什麼?
RB: I don't think I think too much about legacy. I mean, I like to -- you know, my grandmother lived to 101, so hopefully I've got another 30 or 40 years to go. No, I just want to live life to its full. You know, if I can make a difference, I hope to be able to make a difference. And I think one of the positive things at the moment is you've got Sergey and Larry from Google, for instance, who are good friends. And, thank God, you've got two people who genuinely care about the world and with that kind of wealth. If they had that kind of wealth and they didn't care about the world, it would be very worrying. And you know they're going to make a hell of a difference to the world. And I think it's important that people in that kind of position do make a difference.
理:我沒想過要留下什麼。 我當然想要知道,我祖母一直活到 101 歲, 所以,要走運的話,我還有個 30、40 年可活。 不,我只想充分利用生命, 為世界做點貢獻。 我想為世界做點貢獻, 我覺得當下最有利的一點是, 比如,谷歌的 Sergey 和 Larry 他們是我的好朋友。 謝天謝地,有兩個人, 真心真意關心這個世界,並用他們的財富造福世界。 要是換作有同樣財富,卻不關心世界的兩個人, 我們就得非常擔心了。 要真那樣,整個世界可就遭殃了。 居高位的人 為世界做出貢獻是很重要的。
CA: Well, Richard, when I was starting off in business, I knew nothing about it and I also was sort of -- I thought that business people were supposed to just be ruthless and that that was the only way you could have a chance of succeeding. And you actually did inspire me. I looked at you, I thought, well, he's made it. Maybe there is a different way. So I would like to thank you for that inspiration, and for coming to TED today. Thank you. Thank you so much. (Applause)
克:理查,我當年剛開始入行的時候, 我一無所知,而且 我錯以為商界的人就應該心狠手辣, 只有這樣才能站得住腳並成功。 你今天給了我很大的啟發。看著你,我心想, 他做到了,也許真有另一種成功的方法。 所以,謝謝你今天給我們的啟發。 謝謝你今天參與 TED, 非常感謝 (掌聲)