Det her er ikke en 'TED-agtig' ting at gøre men lad os starte eftermiddagen med en besked fra en hemmelig sponsor.
Now this is a very un-TED-like thing to do, but let's kick off the afternoon with a message from a mystery sponsor.
Anonymous: Kære Fox Nyheder, vi er uheldigvis blevet gjort opmærksom på at både Anynomous navn og natur er blevet skamferet. Vi er alle. Vi er ingen. Vi er Anonymous. Vi er en legion. Vi tilgiver intet. Vi glemmer intet. Vi er kernen af kaos.
Anonymous: Dear Fox News, it has come to our unfortunate attention that both the name and nature of Anonymous has been ravaged. We are everyone. We are no one. We are anonymous. We are legion. We do not forgive. We do not forget. We are but the base of chaos.
Misha Glenny: Anonymous, mine damer og herrer - er en sofistikeret gruppe af politisk motivered hackere som opstod i 2011. Og de er temmelig skræmmende. Man ved aldrig hvornår de slår til igen og for hvem eller hvad konsekvenserne vil berøre. Men interessant nok så har de en humoristisk sans. De her gutter hackede Fox News Twitter konto for at annoncere Præsident Obama's snigmord. I kan forestille jer den panik det må have skabt i Foxs nyhedsrum. "Hvad gør vi nu? Skal vi tage et sort armbånd på eller åbne en flaske champagne og fejre det?" (Latter) Og alle kan se det ironiske i at et medlem af Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. er blevet et offer for hacking til en forandring.
Misha Glenny: Anonymous, ladies and gentlemen -- a sophisticated group of politically motivated hackers who have emerged in 2011. And they're pretty scary. You never know when they're going to attack next, who or what the consequences will be. But interestingly, they have a sense of humor. These guys hacked into Fox News' Twitter account to announce President Obama's assassination. Now you can imagine the panic that would have generated in the newsroom at Fox. "What do we do now? Put on a black armband, or crack open the champagne?" (Laughter) And of course, who could escape the irony of a member of Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. being a victim of hacking for a change.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
(Applaus)
(Applause)
Når man tænder for nyhederne kan man nogengangen spørge sig selv: "Er der nogen tilbage at hacke?" Sony Playstation Network - er gjort, Tyrkiets regering - tjek Englands Agentur for seriøs organiseret kriminalitet - snildt klaret CIA - som at klø sig i nakken. Forleden fortalte en af mine venner fra sikkerhedsbranchen mig at der er to slags selskaber i verden: dem der ved de er blevet hacket og dem der ikke ved det. Tre selskaber der leverer internetsikkerhed til FBI er blevet hacket. Er intet helligt længere, for pokker da?
Sometimes you turn on the news and you say, "Is there anyone left to hack?" Sony Playstation Network -- done, the government of Turkey -- tick, Britain's Serious Organized Crime Agency -- a breeze, the CIA -- falling off a log. In fact, a friend of mine from the security industry told me the other day that there are two types of companies in the world: those that know they've been hacked, and those that don't. I mean three companies providing cybersecurity services to the FBI have been hacked. Is nothing sacred anymore, for heaven's sake?
Nuvel, denne mystiske Anonymous-gruppe - og det her ville de selv sige - de leverer en service for at demonstrere hvor nyttesløse selskaber er til at beskytte vores data. Men der er også et meget alvorligt aspekt vedrørende Anonymous - de er drevet af ideologi. De påstår at de bekæmper en nedrig sammensværgelse. De påstår at regeringer prøver at overtage internettet og kontrollere det og at de, Anonymous, er den autentiske modstands stemme - om det er imod Mellemøstens diktatorer, imod verdens globale medie virksomheder, eller imod efterretningstjenester eller hvem det nu kunne være. Og deres politik er ikke helt uattraktiv. Jeg medgiver at de er lidt ustøbte Der er en snert a halvkogt anarkisme ved dem. Men en ting er rigtigt: vi er ved begyndelse af en storstilet konflikt om kontrollen af internettet. Nettet linker til alting og meget snart vil det formidle al menneskelig aktivtet. Fordi internettet har skabt et nyt og kompliceret miljø i et oldgammelt dilemma hvor man har krav om sikkerhed på den ene side og ønsket om frihed på den anden.
Anyway, this mysterious group Anonymous -- and they would say this themselves -- they are providing a service by demonstrating how useless companies are at protecting our data. But there is also a very serious aspect to Anonymous -- they are ideologically driven. They claim that they are battling a dastardly conspiracy. They say that governments are trying to take over the Internet and control it, and that they, Anonymous, are the authentic voice of resistance -- be it against Middle Eastern dictatorships, against global media corporations, or against intelligence agencies, or whoever it is. And their politics are not entirely unattractive. Okay, they're a little inchoate. There's a strong whiff of half-baked anarchism about them. But one thing is true: we are at the beginning of a mighty struggle for control of the Internet. The Web links everything, and very soon it will mediate most human activity. Because the Internet has fashioned a new and complicated environment for an old-age dilemma that pits the demands of security with the desire for freedom.
Det er en meget kompliceret strid. Og uheldigvis for os dødelige kan vi næppe forstå den særlig godt. Ikke desto mindre fik jeg en uventet indskydelse af overmod for et par år siden og jeg besluttede at prøve netop det. Og jeg forstår det sådan set. Det her er hvad jeg kiggede på da jeg prøvede at forstå det. Men for at forsøge at forklare det skal jeg bruge yderligere 18 minutter eller deromkring så I er nødt til at stole på mig i denne anledning og lad mig forsikre jer om at alle disse elementer er involveret i internetsikkerhed og kontrol af internettet på den ene eller anden anden måde, bare i en opstilling som selv Stephen Hawking ville have svært ved at fatte. Der har i det. Som i kan se, er der i midten vores gamle ven hackeren. Hackeren er helt central i mange af de politiske, sociale og økonomiske udfordringer på nettet. Derfor tænkte jeg "Jamen, det er da disse gutter jeg må snakke med." Og det viser sig at ingen andre snakker med hackerne. De er helt anonyme viser det sig.
Now this is a very complicated struggle. And unfortunately, for mortals like you and me, we probably can't understand it very well. Nonetheless, in an unexpected attack of hubris a couple of years ago, I decided I would try and do that. And I sort of get it. These were the various things that I was looking at as I was trying to understand it. But in order to try and explain the whole thing, I would need another 18 minutes or so to do it, so you're just going to have to take it on trust from me on this occasion, and let me assure you that all of these issues are involved in cybersecurity and control of the Internet one way or the other, but in a configuration that even Stephen Hawking would probably have difficulty trying to get his head around. So there you are. And as you see, in the middle, there is our old friend, the hacker. The hacker is absolutely central to many of the political, social and economic issues affecting the Net. And so I thought to myself, "Well, these are the guys who I want to talk to." And what do you know, nobody else does talk to the hackers. They're completely anonymous, as it were.
Så til trods for det faktum at vi smider milliader, hundredevis af milliarder af dollars i internetsikkerhed - for at få de mest utrolige tekniske løsninger - så er der ingen der gider snakke med de her gutter, hackerne, som er roden til det hele. I stedet foretrækker vi de her forbløffende tekniske løsninger som koster enorme summer penge. Og ingen af de penge bliver brugt på hackerne. Nuvel, nu siger jeg ingen, men der er faktisk en lille bitte efterforskningsenhed i Turin i Italien som kaldes Hackers Profiling Project. Og de laver noget fantastisk efterforskning i de karakteristiske træk og egenskaber og socialisering mellem hackerne. Men fordi de er en FN operation kunne det være grunden til at regeringer og virksomheder ikke er så interesseret i dem. Fordi det er en FN operation mangler de selvfølgelig økonomisk støtte. Men jeg mener de laver et meget vigtigt stykke arbejde. Fordi der hvor vi har et overskud af teknologi i sikkerhedsindustrien har vi en betydelig mangel på - for at være lidt gammeldags - menneskelig efterretning.
So despite the fact that we are beginning to pour billions, hundreds of billions of dollars, into cybersecurity -- for the most extraordinary technical solutions -- no one wants to talk to these guys, the hackers, who are doing everything. Instead, we prefer these really dazzling technological solutions, which cost a huge amount of money. And so nothing is going into the hackers. Well, I say nothing, but actually there is one teeny weeny little research unit in Turin, Italy called the Hackers Profiling Project. And they are doing some fantastic research into the characteristics, into the abilities and the socialization of hackers. But because they're a U.N. operation, maybe that's why governments and corporations are not that interested in them. Because it's a U.N. operation, of course, it lacks funding. But I think they're doing very important work. Because where we have a surplus of technology in the cybersecurity industry, we have a definite lack of -- call me old-fashioned -- human intelligence.
Indtil videre har jeg nævnt hackerne fra Anonymous som er en politisk motiveret hackergruppe. Selvfølgelig behandler retssystemet dem som andre gammeldags kriminelle. Men interessant nok har Anonymous ikke gjort brug af de hackede informationer for at få et økonomisk udbytte. Hvad med de rigtige cyberkriminelle? Grundigt organiseret kriminalitet på nettet går cirka 10 år tilbage i tiden da en gruppe talentfulde ukrainske hackere lavede en hjemmeside som førte til industrialiseringen af cyberkriminalitet. Velkommen til den nu glemte region; Carderplanet. Det her er sådan de reklamerede for sig selv for et årti siden på nettet. CarderPlanet var interessant. Cyberkriminelle ville gå derhen for at købe og sælge stjålne kreditkort oplysninger, og for at udveksle informationer om nyt malware der var udkommet. Husk på at det her er en tid hvor vi for første gang så såkaldt "køb-det-og-brug-det" malware. Det er klar til brug lige som det bliver købt og man kan bruge det selvom man ikke er en særligt sofistikeret hacker.
Now, so far I've mentioned the hackers Anonymous who are a politically motivated hacking group. Of course, the criminal justice system treats them as common old garden criminals. But interestingly, Anonymous does not make use of its hacked information for financial gain. But what about the real cybercriminals? Well real organized crime on the Internet goes back about 10 years when a group of gifted Ukrainian hackers developed a website, which led to the industrialization of cybercrime. Welcome to the now forgotten realm of CarderPlanet. This is how they were advertising themselves a decade ago on the Net. Now CarderPlanet was very interesting. Cybercriminals would go there to buy and sell stolen credit card details, to exchange information about new malware that was out there. And remember, this is a time when we're seeing for the first time so-called off-the-shelf malware. This is ready for use, out-of-the-box stuff, which you can deploy even if you're not a terribly sophisticated hacker.
Så CarderPlanet blev et slags supermarked for cyberkriminelle. Og dets ophavsmænd var utroligt smarte og initiativrige fordi de jo måtte stå imod den enorme udfordring de havde som cyberkriminelle. Og den udfordring var: Hvordan skal man drive forretning og stole på dem på nettet som du gør forretninger med når du ved at de er kriminelle? (Latter) Det er axiomatisk at det er skumle typer og at de vil forsøge at snyde dig. Derfor fik familien som den hårde kerne i CarderPlanet var kendt som en genial ide som de kaldte for deponeringssystemet. De udnævnte en tillidsmand som skulle forhandle mellem køber og sælger. Sælgeren, som f.eks. havde stjålne kreditkort informationer, og køberen som gerne villle have disse informationer. Køberen ville så sende den administrative tillidsmand nogle penge digitalt og sælgeren ville så sælge kreditkort informationerne. Og tillidsmanden ville så verificere om det stjålne kreditkort virkede. Og hvis det gjorde det ville han aflevere pengene videre til sælgeren og de stjålne kreditkort informationer til køberen. Og det var dette som fuldstændigt revolutionerede cyberkriminalitet på nettet. Efter det gik det amok. Det var et festligt årti for dem som vi kender som Carders.
And so CarderPlanet became a sort of supermarket for cybercriminals. And its creators were incredibly smart and entrepreneurial, because they were faced with one enormous challenge as cybercriminals. And that challenge is: How do you do business, how do you trust somebody on the Web who you want to do business with when you know that they're a criminal? (Laughter) It's axiomatic that they're dodgy, and they're going to want to try and rip you off. So the family, as the inner core of CarderPlanet was known, came up with this brilliant idea called the escrow system. They appointed an officer who would mediate between the vendor and the purchaser. The vendor, say, had stolen credit card details; the purchaser wanted to get a hold of them. The purchaser would send the administrative officer some dollars digitally, and the vendor would sell the stolen credit card details. And the officer would then verify if the stolen credit card worked. And if they did, he then passed on the money to the vendor and the stolen credit card details to the purchaser. And it was this which completely revolutionized cybercrime on the Web. And after that, it just went wild. We had a champagne decade for people who we know as Carders.
Jeg har talt med en af disse Carders som vi kan kalde for RedBrigade - selvom det ikke var hans rigtige øgenavn - men jeg har lovet ham at jeg ikke ville afsløre hvem han var. Og han forklarede mig hvordan han i 2003 og 2004 ville gå på rov i New York og hæve $10.000 fra en automat, $30.000 fra en anden ved at bruge klonede kreditkort. På en gennemsnitlig uge tjente han $150.000 - skattefrit selvfølgelig. Og han sagde at han havde så mange penge gemt væk i sin upper-East side lejlighed på et tidspunkt at han ikke anede hvad han skulle gøre med dem og han endte faktisk med en depression. Men det er en lidt anden historie som jeg ikke vil dykke ned i nu. Det interessante ved RedBrigade er at han ikke var en advanceret hacker. Han forstod nogenlunde teknologien og han forstod at sikkerhed var meget vigtigt hvis man skulle være en Carder, men han spenderede ikke dag og nat bøjet over computeren, mens han spiste pizza og drak cola og den slags. Han gik i byen, morede sig i et liv i sus og dus.
Now I spoke to one of these Carders who we'll call RedBrigade -- although that wasn't even his proper nickname -- but I promised I wouldn't reveal who he was. And he explained to me how in 2003 and 2004 he would go on sprees in New York, taking out $10,000 from an ATM here, $30,000 from an ATM there, using cloned credit cards. He was making, on average a week, $150,000 -- tax free of course. And he said that he had so much money stashed in his upper-East side apartment at one point that he just didn't know what to do with it and actually fell into a depression. But that's a slightly different story, which I won't go into now. Now the interesting thing about RedBrigade is that he wasn't an advanced hacker. He sort of understood the technology, and he realized that security was very important if you were going to be a Carder, but he didn't spend his days and nights bent over a computer, eating pizza, drinking coke and that sort of thing. He was out there on the town having a fab time enjoying the high life.
Og det er fordi at hackere kun er et element i et cyberkriminel foretagende. Ofte er de det mest sensitive af alle elementerne. Jeg vil gerne prøve at forklare det ved at introducere seks forskellige personer som jeg har mødt mens jeg lavede denne efterforskning. Dimitry Golubov, aka SCRIPT - født i Odessa, Ukraine i 1982. Han udviklede sit sociale og moralske kompas på havnen nær Sortehavet i 90'erne. Det var et vind-eller-forsvind miljø hvor det var nødvendigt at være en del af kriminelle eller korrupte aktiviter hvis man ville overleve. Som en øvet computerbruger brugte Dimitry sin tid på at overføre penge fra banderne fra hans hjemby til internettet. Og han gjorde et fremragende stykke arbejde. Man er nødt til at forstå at han siden niårs-alderen kun havde oplevet dette hårdkogte bandemiljø. Han kendte ikke andre måder at tjene penge.
And this is because hackers are only one element in a cybercriminal enterprise. And often they're the most vulnerable element of all. And I want to explain this to you by introducing you to six characters who I met while I was doing this research. Dimitry Golubov, aka SCRIPT -- born in Odessa, Ukraine in 1982. Now he developed his social and moral compass on the Black Sea port during the 1990s. This was a sink-or-swim environment where involvement in criminal or corrupt activities was entirely necessary if you wanted to survive. As an accomplished computer user, what Dimitry did was to transfer the gangster capitalism of his hometown onto the Worldwide Web. And he did a great job in it. You have to understand though that from his ninth birthday, the only environment he knew was gangsterism. He knew no other way of making a living and making money.
Så har vi Renukanth Subramaniam, aka JiLsi - stifteren af DarkMarket, født i Colombo, Sri Lanka. Som 8-årig flygtede ham og hans forældre fra Sri Lankas hovedstad fordi Singhalesiske oprørere farede rundt i byen og ledte efter Tamilere som Renu, som de kunne slå ihjel. Som 11-årig blev han afhørt af Sri Lankas militær, anklaget for at være terrorist og hans forældre sendte ham alene til England som en politisk flygtning der søgte asyl. Som 13-årig med kun dårlige engelsk-kundskaber, blev han drillet i skolen, og han flygtede ind i en verden af computere hvor han udviste stort tekniske snilde, men snart skulle han blive forført af folk på internettet. Han blev dømt for realkredit svindel og kreditkort svindel og han vil blive løsladt fra Wormwood Scrubs fængslet i London i 2012.
Then we have Renukanth Subramaniam, aka JiLsi -- founder of DarkMarket, born in Colombo, Sri Lanka. As an eight year-old, he and his parents fled the Sri Lankan capital because Singhalese mobs were roaming the city, looking for Tamils like Renu to murder. At 11, he was interrogated by the Sri Lankan military, accused of being a terrorist, and his parents sent him on his own to Britain as a refugee seeking political asylum. At 13, with only little English and being bullied at school, he escaped into a world of computers where he showed great technical ability, but he was soon being seduced by people on the Internet. He was convicted of mortgage and credit card fraud, and he will be released from Wormwood Scrubs jail in London in 2012.
Matrix001, som var administrator på DarkMarket, blev født i det sydlige Tyskland, i en stabil og respektabel middelklasse familie. Hans besættelse af computerspil som teenager førte ham til at hacke. Snart kontrollerede han kæmpe store servere rundt omkring i verden hvor han havde gemt sit spil som han havde sikkerhedsbrudt og piratkopieret. Hans synken ind i kriminalitet var tiltagende. Og da han endelig vågnede op og forstod implikationerne af hans handlinger var det allerede for sent.
Matrix001, who was an administrator at DarkMarket. Born in Southern Germany to a stable and well-respected middle class family, his obsession with gaming as a teenager led him to hacking. And he was soon controlling huge servers around the world where he stored his games that he had cracked and pirated. His slide into criminality was incremental. And when he finally woke up to his situation and understood the implications, he was already in too deep.
Max Vision, aka ICEMAN - bagmanden bag cardersMarket. Født i Meridian, Idaho. Max Vision var en af de bedste kodebrydningstestere som arbejde i Santa Clara, Californien i sen-90'erne for private selskaber og medlte sig som frivillig for FBI. I slut 90'erne opdagede han en sårbårhed på alle netværk i den amerikanske regering og han gik i gang med at lave det - fordi dette inkluderede atom-forsknings faciliteter - og derved sparede han den amerikanske regering for en meget pinlig sag. Men fordi han var en vanlig hacker, efterlod han et lille digitalt ormehul hvilket han alene kunne komme igennem. Men det blev opdaget af et falkeblik hos en efterforsker og han blev dømt. I hans åbne fængsel blev han influeret af økonomisk kriminelle snydere og disse snydere overtalte ham til at arbejde for sig da han blev løsladt. Og manden med mega-hjernen afsoner nu en 13-årig straf i Californien.
Max Vision, aka ICEMAN -- mastermind of CardersMarket. Born in Meridian, Idaho. Max Vision was one of the best penetration testers working out of Santa Clara, California in the late 90s for private companies and voluntarily for the FBI. Now in the late 1990s, he discovered a vulnerability on all U.S. government networks, and he went in and patched it up -- because this included nuclear research facilities -- sparing the American government a huge security embarrassment. But also, because he was an inveterate hacker, he left a tiny digital wormhole through which he alone could crawl. But this was spotted by an eagle-eye investigator, and he was convicted. At his open prison, he came under the influence of financial fraudsters, and those financial fraudsters persuaded him to work for them on his release. And this man with a planetary-sized brain is now serving a 13-year sentence in California.
Adewale Taiwo, aka FeddyBB - mester bankkonto nedbryder fra Abuja i Negeria. Han lavede hans kunstfærdigt navngivne nyhedsgruppe bankfrauds@yahoo.co.uk før han ankom til England i 2005 for at tage en kandidat-grad som kemiingeniør på Manchester University. Han imponerede i den private sektor ved at udvikle kemiske applikationer til olie-industrien mens han samtidigt kørte en verdensomspændede bank og kreditkort svindels-operation som var millioner værd indtil hans arrestering i 2008.
Adewale Taiwo, aka FreddyBB -- master bank account cracker from Abuja in Nigeria. He set up his prosaically entitled newsgroup, bankfrauds@yahoo.co.uk before arriving in Britain in 2005 to take a Masters in chemical engineering at Manchester University. He impressed in the private sector, developing chemical applications for the oil industry while simultaneously running a worldwide bank and credit card fraud operation that was worth millions until his arrest in 2008.
Og sidst, Cagatay Evyapan, aka Cha0 - en af de mest opsigtsvækkende hackere nogensinde, fra Ankara i Tyrkiet. Han kombineret de uhyre talenter som nørd med de charmerende sociale træk fra en verdensklasses forbryder. Han er et af de klogeste mennesker jeg har mødt. Han havde også det mest effektive, virtual private network sikkerhedssystem politiet nogensinde havde stødt på blandt globale cyberkriminelle.
And then finally, Cagatay Evyapan, aka Cha0 -- one of the most remarkable hackers ever, from Ankara in Turkey. He combined the tremendous skills of a geek with the suave social engineering skills of the master criminal. One of the smartest people I've ever met. He also had the most effective virtual private network security arrangement the police have ever encountered amongst global cybercriminals.
Det vigtige blandt alle disse mennesker er at de deler visse ligheder til trods for det faktum at de kommer fra vidt forskellige miljøer. Det er allesammen mennesker der lærte deres hacker-evner mens de var i deres teenage-år. Det er allesammen mennesker der har usædvanlige evner indenfor matematik og naturvidenskaberne. Husk på at da de udviklede deres hackerevner havde de endnu ikke udviklet en moralsk sans. Og de fleste af dem, med undtagelse af SCRIPT og Cha0, demonstrerede ikke nogle egentlige sociale færdigheder i den virkelige verden - kun op internettet.
Now the important thing about all of these people is they share certain characteristics despite the fact that they come from very different environments. They are all people who learned their hacking skills in their early to mid-teens. They are all people who demonstrate advanced ability in maths and the sciences. Remember that, when they developed those hacking skills, their moral compass had not yet developed. And most of them, with the exception of SCRIPT and Cha0, they did not demonstrate any real social skills in the outside world -- only on the Web.
En anden ting er det høje antal af hackere som disse der har konsistente karakteristika fra Asperger's syndrom. Jeg har diskuteret dette med Prof. Simon Baron-Cohen som er professor i udviklingsmental psykopathologi ved Cambridge. Og han har lavet banebrydende arbejde med autisme og bekræftet, også for autoriteterne her i landet, at Gary McKinnon - som er efterlyst i USA for at hacke Pentagon - lider af Asperger's og samtidig har en depression. Og Baron-Cohen forklarede at visse handikap kan manifestere sig i hacking- og computerverdenen som abnorme evner, og vi burde ikke smide folk i fængsel som har disse handikap og evner fordi de har mistet deres sociale retning eller er blevet snydt.
And the other thing is the high incidence of hackers like these who have characteristics which are consistent with Asperger's syndrome. Now I discussed this with Professor Simon Baron-Cohen who's the professor of developmental psychopathology at Cambridge. And he has done path-breaking work on autism and confirmed, also for the authorities here, that Gary McKinnon -- who is wanted by the United States for hacking into the Pentagon -- suffers from Asperger's and a secondary condition of depression. And Baron-Cohen explained that certain disabilities can manifest themselves in the hacking and computing world as tremendous skills, and that we should not be throwing in jail people who have such disabilities and skills because they have lost their way socially or been duped.
Jeg synes der mangler en pointe her for jeg synes ikke at folk som Max Vision burde være i fængsel. Tillad mig at være ligefrem. I Kina, Rusland og massere af andre lande som udvikler cyber-offensive kapaciteter er det præcist hvad de gør. De hyrer hackere både før og efter de bliver involveret i kriminalitet og industri espionage - og mobiliserer dem på vegne af staten. Vi har behov for handling så vi kan finde måder at tilbyde vejledning til disse unge mennesker på, for de er af en utrolig støbning. Hvis vi kun skal læne os op ad retssystemet som vi gør i øjeblikket og truslen med fængelsstraffe, så fostrer vi en monster vi ikke kan tæmme.
Now I think we're missing a trick here, because I don't think people like Max Vision should be in jail. And let me be blunt about this. In China, in Russia and in loads of other countries that are developing cyber-offensive capabilities, this is exactly what they are doing. They are recruiting hackers both before and after they become involved in criminal and industrial espionage activities -- are mobilizing them on behalf of the state. We need to engage and find ways of offering guidance to these young people, because they are a remarkable breed. And if we rely, as we do at the moment, solely on the criminal justice system and the threat of punitive sentences, we will be nurturing a monster we cannot tame.
Mange tak fordi I lyttede.
Thank you very much for listening.
(Applaus)
(Applause)
Chris Anderson: Så din ide vil skal sprede er at hyre hackerne. Hvordan skal man overkomme den frygt at når man hyrer en hacker efterlader han måske et lille bitte ormehul?
Chris Anderson: So your idea worth spreading is hire hackers. How would someone get over that kind of fear that the hacker they hire might preserve that little teensy wormhole?
MG: Jeg tror til en vis udstrækning at man må forstå at det er axiomatisk blandt hackere at gøre netop det. De er blot utrætteligt og besatte af det de gør. Men alle dem jeg har snakket med som er kommet i klinch med loven, har alle sagt: "Vi vil så gerne have en chance for at arbejde i en legitim industri. Vi vidste bare aldrig hvordan vi skulle gøre det eller hvad vi gjorde. Vi vil gerne arbejde med jer."
MG: I think to an extent, you have to understand that it's axiomatic among hackers that they do that. They're just relentless and obsessive about what they do. But all of the people who I've spoken to who have fallen foul of the law, they have all said, "Please, please give us a chance to work in the legitimate industry. We just never knew how to get there, what we were doing. We want to work with you."
Chris Anderson: Okay, det giver mening. Tusind tak, Misha.
Chris Anderson: Okay, well that makes sense. Thanks a lot Misha.
(Applaus)
(Applause)