Frank Gehry: I listened to this scientist this morning. Dr. Mullis was talking about his experiments, and I realized that I almost became a scientist. When I was 14 my parents bought me a chemistry set and I decided to make water. (Laughter) So, I made a hydrogen generator and I made an oxygen generator, and I had the two pipes leading into a beaker and I threw a match in. (Laughter) And the glass -- luckily I turned around -- I had it all in my back and I was about 15 feet away. The wall was covered with ... I had an explosion.
弗蘭克•蓋瑞:今天早上我聽到一位科學家在和 穆裏斯博士說他的實驗, 突然想到自己當年差點兒就成了科學家。 我十四歲的時候父母給我買了一套化學儀器。 然後我決定要合成水。 (笑) 於是我做了一套氫氣生成器和一套氧氣生成器。 我將這兩根管子導入量杯裡, 然後我扔了根火柴進去。 (笑♫) 然後玻璃—幸好我轉過了身, 全都砸在了我背上。 大概十五尺左右的地方, 牆上覆蓋著--- 我制造了一场爆炸。
Richard Saul Wurman: Really?
理查•所羅•烏爾曼:啊?真的?
FG: People on the street came and knocked on the door to see if I was okay. RSW: ... huh. (Laughter)
蓋瑞:街上的人都過來敲門, 看看我有沒有事。 (笑)
I'd like to start this session again. The gentleman to my left is the very famous, perhaps overly famous, Frank Gehry. (Laughter) (Applause) And Frank, you've come to a place in your life, which is astonishing. I mean it is astonishing for an artist, for an architect, to become actually an icon and a legend in their own time. I mean you have become, whether you can giggle at it because it's a funny ... you know, it's a strange thought, but your building is an icon -- you can draw a little picture of that building, it can be used in ads -- and you've had not rock star status, but celebrity status in doing what you wanted to do for most of your life. And I know the road was extremely difficult. And it didn't seem, at least, that your sell outs, whatever they were, were very big. You kept moving ahead in a life where you're dependent on working for somebody. But that's an interesting thing for a creative person. A lot of us work for people; we're in the hands of other people. And that's one of the great dilemmas -- we're in a creativity session -- it's one of the great dilemmas in creativity: how to do work that's big enough and not sell out. And you've achieved that and that makes your win doubly big, triply big. It's not quite a question but you can comment on it. It's a big issue.
烏爾曼:恩,我要重新開個頭— 重新開始這段對話。 我左邊的這位先生就是非常著名的,可能有點兒名不副實的 弗蘭克•蓋瑞。 (笑) (鼓掌♫) 弗蘭克,你已經攀登到了人生中不可思議的高度。 我是說,對於一位藝術家—一位建築師而言— 成為你所屬的這一個時代的風向標,甚至傳說。 我是說你成功了,就算你對這個事實竊笑, 因為確實很好笑——你知道,這是很奇怪的想法。 但你的建築物是種象徵。 你給那幢建築畫張小圖,它就可以被用在廣告裏。 而且你擁有—非搖滾明星的地位,而是名人的地位, 可以在一生的大部分時間中自己想做的事情。 我知道,這一路走來異常艱難。 而且你做出的種種犧牲, 無論何種犧牲,都是巨大的。 致力於為他人服務的一生中, 你不斷前進, 但對於一個富有創造力的人來說,這很有趣, 很多像我們這樣的人都服務於他人, 我們的生活在他人的股掌之中。 這是眾多窘境之一—我們身處一個創造的時代— 這是創造力面對的最大的困境之一。 如何做到最大限度而又始終堅持自我。 而你做到了。 這給你帶來了雙贏—甚至多贏。 這不是一個問題,但你可以談談你的看法。 這很重要。
FG: Well, I've always just ... I've never really gone out looking for work. I always waited for it to sort of hit me on the head. And when I started out, I thought that architecture was a service business and that you had to please the clients and stuff. And I realized when I'd come into the meetings with these corrugated metal and chain link stuff, and people would just look at me like I'd just landed from Mars. But I couldn't do anything else. That was my response to the people in the time. And actually, it was responding to clients that I had who didn't have very much money, so they couldn't afford very much. I think it was circumstantial.
蓋瑞:嗯,一直以來我只是— 我從來沒有自己去找過工作, 我是守株待兔型的。 剛開始的時候, 我認為建築業是門服務性行業, 你必須取悅雇主和你的團隊。 我意識到,我一走進會議室, 夾著那些打了褶的金屬和鏈條什麼的, 人們只會看著我, 好像我從火星來的似的。 但其他的我什麼都做不了。 那就是我對人們以及那個時代的回應。 事實上,那是我對顧客的回應。 他們沒有那麼多錢,負擔不起太好的材料。 我覺得那是迫不得已。
Until I got to my house, where the client was my wife. We bought this tiny little bungalow in Santa Monica and for like 50 grand I built a house around it. And a few people got excited about it. I was visiting with an artist, Michael Heizer, out in the desert near Las Vegas somewhere. He's building this huge concrete place. And it was late in the evening. We'd had a lot to drink. We were standing out in the desert all alone and, thinking about my house, he said, "Did it ever occur to you if you built stuff more permanent, somewhere in 2000 years somebody's going to like it?" (Laughter) So, I thought, "Yeah, that's probably a good idea." Luckily I started to get some clients that had a little more money, so the stuff was a little more permanent. But I just found out the world ain't going to last that long, this guy was telling us the other day. So where do we go now? Back to -- everything's so temporary.
直到我弄自己的房子,這個時候老婆成了我的顧客。 我們在聖塔莫尼卡買了間小屋, 用大概5萬美元在那兒造了間房子。 一些人見了那間房子很興奮。 曾經我和一位藝術家,邁克爾•黑澤爾一起外出, 在拉斯維加斯附近的某個沙漠。 當時他正在那兒建一座巨大的混凝土建築。 天有點晚了,我們喝了不少酒。 就我倆,站在巨大的沙漠中間,他說— 想到我的房子—他說, 你有沒有想過建些更加永恆的東西, 在未來2000年裏都有人欣賞它。 (笑♫) 我就想——是啊,說不定是個好主意。 我很幸運,找到了一些稍有余錢的雇主, 建造的東西變得稍微“永恆”些了。 之後我又發現世界永遠不會只為你持續那麼會兒。 有一天,這傢伙又告訴我們, 所以我們現在要往哪個方向走呢? 回到—一切都那麼暫時,轉眼即逝。
I don't see it the way you characterized it. For me, every day is a new thing. I approach each project with a new insecurity, almost like the first project I ever did, and I get the sweats, I go in and start working, I'm not sure where I'm going -- if I knew where I was going, I wouldn't do it. When I can predict or plan it, I don't do it. I discard it. So I approach it with the same trepidation. Obviously, over time I have a lot more confidence that it's going to be OK. I do run a kind of a business -- I've got 120 people and you've got to pay them, so there's a lot of responsibility involved -- but the actual work on the project is with, I think, a healthy insecurity.
我眼中的世界和你不一樣, 對我來說,每一天都是全新的, 我每開始一個新專案,都帶著不安的心情, 像是對待我人生裡的第一個專案一樣。 我付出汗水, 埋頭工作,不知道結果會是怎樣。 如果我對前方一切了然於心,那我就不會去做。 如果我能預測或者計畫一切,我也不會繼續下去。 我會把預測或者計畫丟到一邊去。 所以我才能帶著同樣的不穩定感對待每一個項目。 當然,我的信心隨著時間累積著, 所以一切都會變好。 我確實是在經營一門生意, 我有個120人的團隊, 要付給每個人薪水, 這其中包含了很大責任。 但這工作的關鍵, 我覺得是很合理的不安全感
And like the playwright said the other day -- I could relate to him: you're not sure. When Bilbao was finished and I looked at it, I saw all the mistakes, I saw ... They weren't mistakes; I saw everything that I would have changed and I was embarrassed by it. I felt an embarrassment -- "How could I have done that? How could I have made shapes like that or done stuff like that?" It's taken several years to now look at it detached and say -- as you walk around the corner and a piece of it works with the road and the street, and it appears to have a relationship -- that I started to like it.
正如那位劇作家說的—我引用他的話— 你不確定。 當畢爾巴鄂的工程(古根海姆美術館)結束的時候,我看著它, 我發現了所有的錯誤。 它們不能算是錯誤。 我看著我曾經可以改變的一切, 自己覺得有點難為情。 我覺得局促不安——怎麼弄成那樣了? 形狀怎麼成這樣,怎麼把那些地方弄成那個樣子? 過好多年我才能超然地看著它,然後 當你走過建築的拐角,發現有一塊地方與街道很契合, 它似乎和街道產生了一種聯繫, 我開始喜歡上了它。
RSW: What's the status of the New York project?
烏爾曼:紐約的項目怎麼樣了?
FG: I don't really know. Tom Krens came to me with Bilbao and explained it all to me, and I thought he was nuts. I didn't think he knew what he was doing, and he pulled it off. So, I think he's Icarus and Phoenix all in one guy. (Laughter) He gets up there and then he ... comes back up. They're still talking about it. September 11 generated some interest in moving it over to Ground Zero, and I'm totally against that. I just feel uncomfortable talking about or building anything on Ground Zero I think for a long time.
蓋瑞:我也不太清楚。 湯姆•科倫斯拿著畢爾巴鄂專案資料來找我,給我講了一番, 當是我就覺得他是個瘋子, 我認為他根本不知道自己在幹什麼。 但是他把這事兒弄成了。 所以我覺得他是伊卡洛斯和費尼克斯的合體。 (笑) 他已經取得了很高成就—然後下去,又上來。 直到現在大家都還在議論。 九一一事件後有人建議 將其移到世貿遺址。 而我堅決反對。 談論世貿或者在世貿遺址上建東西我都覺得很不舒服。 這件事我想了很久。
RSW: The picture on the screen, is that Disney?
烏爾曼:螢幕上的這幅圖, 是迪士尼嗎?
FG: Yeah.
蓋瑞:是的。
RSW: How much further along is it than that, and when will that be finished?
烏爾曼:還有多久, 什麼時候能完工?
FG: That will be finished in 2003 -- September, October -- and I'm hoping Kyu, and Herbie, and Yo-Yo and all those guys come play with us at that place. Luckily, today most of the people I'm working with are people I really like. Richard Koshalek is probably one of the main reasons that Disney Hall came to me. He's been a cheerleader for quite a long time. There aren't many people around that are really involved with architecture as clients. If you think about the world, and even just in this audience, most of us are involved with buildings. Nothing that you would call architecture, right? And so to find one, a guy like that, you hang on to him. He's become the head of Art Center, and there's a building by Craig Ellwood there. I knew Craig and respected him. They want to add to it and it's hard to add to a building like that -- it's a beautiful, minimalist, black steel building -- and Richard wants to add a library and more student stuff and it's a lot of acreage. I convinced him to let me bring in another architect from Portugal: Alvaro Siza.
蓋瑞:要到2003年的九月或者十月。 到時候我希望Kyu, Herbie, 還有馬友友以及所有那些音樂家 能和我們一起在那兒演出。 很幸運,今天和我在一起工作的人,大都是我很喜歡的。 理查‧科沙萊克可能是迪士尼劇場找上我 的眾多因素中的主要原因。 他一直都像個啦啦隊隊長似的。 那個工程並沒有太多人涉及到 建築風格設計。 你知道的,想想看這個世界 包括我們面前的這些觀眾, 大多數人是與大樓相聯繫。 你根本不會通過他們聯想到建築,對吧? 所以找到一個那樣的人, 可以信賴的,你理解嗎? 他成為了藝術中心的主任, 那兒已經有一座克雷格•埃爾伍德的作品。 我認識克雷格而且很尊敬他。 他們想要再加點什麼。 但是很難在那樣的一座建築上再加個像它一樣的東西。 那是一座漂亮、極簡的黑色鋼制建築, 理查想要再建一個圖書館和一些為學生服務的設施。 那得占很大的地方。 我說服他讓我帶上另一位建築師, 葡萄牙人,阿爾瓦羅•西紮。
RSW: Why did you want that?
烏爾曼:為什麼呢?
FG: I knew you'd ask that question.
蓋瑞:我就知道你得這樣問。
It was intuitive. (Laughter)
直覺吧。 (笑)
Alvaro Siza grew up and lived in Portugal and is probably considered the Portuguese main guy in architecture. I visited with him a few years ago and he showed me his early work, and his early work had a resemblance to my early work. When I came out of college, I started to try to do things contextually in Southern California, and you got into the logic of Spanish colonial tile roofs and things like that. I tried to understand that language as a beginning, as a place to jump off, and there was so much of it being done by spec builders and it was trivialized so much that it wasn't ... I just stopped. I mean, Charlie Moore did a bunch of it, but it didn't feel good to me. Siza, on the other hand, continued in Portugal where the real stuff was and evolved a modern language that relates to that historic language. And I always felt that he should come to Southern California and do a building. I tried to get him a couple of jobs and they didn't pan out. I like the idea of collaboration with people like that because it pushes you. I've done it with Claes Oldenburg and with Richard Serra, who doesn't think architecture is art. Did you see that thing? RSW: No. What did he say?
蓋瑞:西紮在葡萄牙長大,也在那裏居住。 現在被認為是葡萄牙建築學界的領軍人物。 前些年我和他有過會面。 他給我看了一些他的早期作品。 他的早期作品和我的早期作品有些相似之處。 當我剛從學校畢業, 我開始嘗試在南加州做一些地域性的東西。 想到西班牙殖民時期的磚瓦屋頂風格 以及那類的東西。 我以理解那種語言為開端, 把它當做一塊跳板。 那兒已經有太多的模式化建造者, 建築元素被過於淡化以至於不能— 於是我停了下來。 我的意思是,查理•摩爾做了很多類似的東西, 但我無法被它們吸引。 另一方面西紮,在葡萄牙 進行著實實在在的實踐, 演化成了一種與歷史語言相聯繫的現代語言。 我一直覺得他可以到南加州來 做一個工程。 我嘗試給他爭取一些項目,但是沒有成功。 而且我喜歡與這樣的人合作, 因為這樣會一直推動我。 我曾經與克拉斯•歐登伯格和裏查德•塞拉合作過, 他們並不將建築視為藝術。 你注意到了嗎? 烏爾曼:他怎麼說的?
FG: He calls architecture "plumbing." (Laughter)
蓋瑞:他把建築叫做“鉛工業。” (笑)
FG: Anyway, the Siza thing. It's a richer experience. It must be like that for Kyu doing things with musicians -- it's similar to that I would imagine -- where you ... huh?
蓋瑞:不論如何,與西紮的合作, 是很豐富很有意義的經歷。 正像Kyu與其他音樂家合作, 我覺得與西紮合作就是那麼個感覺。 你會—呃?
Audience: Liquid architecture.
觀眾:液態建築。
FG: Liquid architecture. (Laughter) Where you ... It's like jazz: you improvise, you work together, you play off each other, you make something, they make something. And I think for me, it's a way of trying to understand the city and what might happen in the city.
蓋瑞:液態建築。 (笑) 就像爵士樂—你可以即興發揮,大家一起演奏。 你們互相挑戰,你弄點兒什麼, 他們再弄點兒什麼。 我認為這是一種— 對我來說,這是一種理解一個城市的方法, 以及這個城市將會發生什麼。
RSW: Is it going to be near the current campus? Or is it going to be down near ...
烏爾曼:它會建在現有的場地附近嗎? 還是會在—
FG: No, it's near the current campus. Anyway, he's that kind of patron. It's not his money, of course. (Laughter)
蓋瑞:不,它就在現有場地附近。 不論如何,他就是那種顧客。 當然,那不是他的錢就是了。 (笑)
RSW: What's his schedule on that?
烏爾曼:對此他的計畫是什麼?
FG: I don't know. What's the schedule, Richard? Richard Koshalek: [Unclear] starts from 2004.
蓋瑞:我不知道。 什麼計畫,理查? 理查:2004年開工。
FG: 2004. You can come to the opening. I'll invite you. No, but the issue of city building in democracy is interesting because it creates chaos, right? Everybody doing their thing makes a very chaotic environment, and if you can figure out how to work off each other -- if you can get a bunch of people who respect each other's work and play off each other, you might be able to create models for how to build sections of the city without resorting to the one architect. Like the Rockefeller Center model, which is kind of from another era.
蓋瑞:2004。 你可以來參加開工典禮,我會邀請你的。 不,但民主的城市建設很有趣, 因為會造成混亂,是嗎? 每個人各幹各的會造成一種非常混亂的局面, 如果你能找出勝過對方的方法— 我是說,不是那個意思—如果你能找到一群人, 在互相尊重的前提下良性競爭, 就可能實現建設城市的各個分區 而不僅僅依賴于一個建築模型。 就像是洛克菲勒中心模型, 像是另一個時代的作品。
RSW: I found the most remarkable thing. My preconception of Bilbao was this wonderful building, you go inside and there'd be extraordinary spaces. I'd seen drawings you had presented here at TED. The surprise of Bilbao was in its context to the city. That was the surprise of going across the river, of going on the highway around it, of walking down the street and finding it. That was the real surprise of Bilbao.
烏爾曼:我找到了最值得稱道的東西了。 我對畢爾巴鄂項目的預想是這樣一座精彩的建築, 進去之後有非凡的空間。 我看過你以前在TED展示的草圖。 畢爾巴鄂的驚喜是它與城市地域的互相適應。 這種驚喜是跨過河流 連接周圍的高速公路, 沿街行走突然邂逅它的驚喜。 這正是畢爾巴鄂的驚喜所在。
FG: But you know, Richard, most architects when they present their work -- most of the people we know, you get up and you talk about your work, and it's almost like you tell everybody you're a good guy by saying, "Look, I'm worried about the context, I'm worried about the city, I'm worried about my client, I worry about budget, that I'm on time." Blah, blah, blah and all that stuff. And it's like cleansing yourself so that you can ... by saying all that, it means your work is good somehow. And I think everybody -- I mean that should be a matter of fact, like gravity. You're not going to defy gravity. You've got to work with the building department. If you don't meet the budgets, you're not going to get much work. If it leaks -- Bilbao did not leak. I was so proud. (Laughter) The MIT project -- they were interviewing me for MIT and they sent their facilities people to Bilbao. I met them in Bilbao. They came for three days.
蓋瑞:但是你知道的,理查, 大多數建築師展示他們的作品時— 我們認識他們, 會站起來,談論自己的作品, 就像告訴所有人他是個好人, 說道,我考慮環境問題, 我考慮這座城市, 我為我的雇主著想, 我要考慮預算,我要如期完工。 就是這類話。 就像是想要拼命洗清自己 好像說了那些,就可以一定程度上說明工作完成得不錯。 而且我認為每個人 我是指應該像對待事實,像重力。 你不可能否認重力的存在。 你必須和建築部門合作。 如果預算有限制,你就不能做太多。 如果發生滲水— 畢爾巴鄂可沒有滲水, 這讓我非常驕傲。 (笑) 麻省理工的項目——他們就那個項目面試我, 派工作人員去畢爾巴鄂。 我在畢爾巴鄂和他們見面。 他們在那待了三天。
RSW: This is the computer building?
烏爾曼:所以這是棟電腦建設囉?
FG: Yeah, the computer building. They were there three days and it rained every day and they kept walking around -- I noticed they were looking under things and looking for things, and they wanted to know where the buckets were hidden, you know? People put buckets out ... I was clean. There wasn't a bloody leak in the place, it was just fantastic. But you've got to -- yeah, well up until then every building leaked, so this ... (Laughter)
蓋瑞:是的。 他們待的那三天,天天下雨。 他們一直到處轉。 我注意到他們總在往底下看, 在找什麼東西一樣。 你知道嗎,他們想知道水桶都藏在哪兒了? 人們一般把桶擱外邊 我可一身清白!那地方滴水不漏。 太棒了。 但是你得 嗯,過些日子什麼房子都會有滲水的毛病,所以說 (笑)
RSW: Frank had a sort of ...
烏爾曼:弗蘭克有種
FG: Ask Miriam!
蓋瑞:去問米里亞姆
RW: ... sort of had a fame. His fame was built on that in L.A. for a while. (Laughter)
很有名聲——一陣子他在洛杉磯的名望就是靠“不漏水”得來的。 (笑)
FG: You've all heard the Frank Lloyd Wright story, when the woman called and said, "Mr. Wright, I'm sitting on the couch and the water's pouring in on my head." And he said, "Madam, move your chair." (Laughter) So, some years later I was doing a building, a little house on the beach for Norton Simon, and his secretary, who was kind of a hell on wheels type lady, called me and said, "Mr. Simon's sitting at his desk and the water's coming in on his head." And I told her the Frank Lloyd Wright story.
蓋瑞:你們都聽說過弗蘭克•勞埃德•賴特的故事。 一個女人打電話說 賴特先生,我當時躺在躺椅上, 水就直接澆在我頭上。 他回答:太太,您挪挪椅子。 (笑) 若干年後我做另一個專案, 為諾頓•西蒙在海灘上建一棟房子。 他的秘書,一位嚴肅苛刻的小姐, 打電話給我說: 西蒙先生正坐在他的書桌前, 水正落在他的頭頂上。 我就把弗蘭克•勞埃德•賴特的故事講給她聽。
RSW: Didn't get a laugh.
烏爾曼:她當時肯定沒笑。
FG: No. Not now either. (Laughter)
蓋瑞:是的,就是現在也不會。 (笑)
But my point is that ... and I call it the "then what?" OK, you solved all the problems, you did all the stuff, you made nice, you loved your clients, you loved the city, you're a good guy, you're a good person ... and then what? What do you bring to it? And I think that's what I've always been interested in, is that -- which is a personal kind of expression. Bilbao, I think, shows that you can have that kind of personal expression and still touch all the bases that are necessary of fitting into the city. That's what reminded me of it. And I think that's the issue, you know; it's the "then what" that most clients who hire architects -- most clients aren't hiring architects for that. They're hiring them to get it done, get it on budget, be polite, and they're missing out on the real value of an architect.
我的意思是—我能不能這麼說“那又怎麼樣?” 好吧,你解決了所有問題。 你都做了,幹得不錯。 你喜歡你的客戶, 你喜愛這個城市。 你是個好人—一個不錯的傢伙。 那又如何? 你到底帶來了什麼呢? 這才是一直以來我的興趣所在。 就是—一種個人表達, 畢爾巴鄂,我認為,就展現出你可以有 這種個人表達, 而且符合所有必要的條件 來融入這個城市。 這提醒我想到了它。 我認為那才是重點,你知道的。 就是“那又怎樣”讓大多雇傭了建築師的客戶 大多客戶並不是為了那個雇傭建築師。 建築師至是被雇來完成專案,把握好預算 你知道的,以禮相待。 他們忽略了建築師的真正價值所在。
RSW: At a certain point a number of years ago, people -- when Michael Graves was a fashion, before teapots ...
烏爾曼:在一個時期,一些年前,人們 在邁克爾•格雷夫斯很受歡迎的時候,在茶壺以前
FG: I did a teapot and nobody bought it. (Laughter)
蓋瑞:我也做過茶壺,但沒人買我的賬。 (笑)
RSW: Did it leak?
烏爾曼:它漏不?
FG: No. (Laughter)
蓋瑞:不。 (笑)
RSW: ... people wanted a Michael Graves building. Is that a curse, that people want a Bilbao building?
烏爾曼:人們想要邁克爾•格雷夫斯那樣的建築。 是不是因為如此,人們都想要畢爾巴鄂那樣的建築物?
FG: Yeah. Since Bilbao opened, which is now four, five years, both Krens and I have been called with at least 100 opportunities -- China, Brazil, other parts of Spain -- to come in and do the Bilbao effect. And I've met with some of these people. Usually I say no right away, but some of them come with pedigree and they sound well-intentioned and they get you for at least one or two meetings. In one case, I flew all the way to Malaga with a team because the thing was signed with seals and various very official seals from the city, and that they wanted me to come and do a building in their port. I asked them what kind of building it was. "When you get here we'll explain it." Blah, blah, blah. So four of us went. And they took us -- they put us up in a great hotel and we were looking over the bay, and then they took us in a boat out in the water and showed us all these sights in the harbor. Each one was more beautiful than the other. And then we were going to have lunch with the mayor and we were going to have dinner with the most important people in Malaga. Just before going to lunch with the mayor, we went to the harbor commissioner. It was a table as long as this carpet and the harbor commissioner was here, and I was here, and my guys. We sat down, and we had a drink of water and everybody was quiet. And the guy looked at me and said, "Now what can I do for you, Mr. Gehry?" (Laughter)
是啊,我接到過這種電話。 當畢爾巴鄂開放的時候——大概距現在有四五年了吧,我也記不清了—— 科倫斯和我都接到很多這樣的電話, 我也不清楚了,大概至少有100個。 中國的,巴西的,還有西班牙其他地方的。 都想要做畢爾巴鄂那樣的效果。 這些人我也見了一些。 通常,我都直接拒絕, 但是有些人把家譜都拿來了, 他們聽上去挺好心。 他們找到你,開至少一兩次會 有一次我和團隊飛到馬拉加去 因為邀請函上有各種蓋章和簽名 你知道的——非常官方的城市簽章 他們想讓我在港口建一座建築。 我問他們想要什麼樣的 “你來了我們就會告訴你的——”諸如此類的話 我們四個人一起去了 他們接待了我們,安排了非常好的酒店。 然後帶我們去看那個海灣。 他們帶我們乘船出海 給我們看海港的景觀 一個比一個美麗 然後我們要去和市長一起吃午餐 再和馬拉加的重量級人士 一起吃晚餐 就在去和市長午餐之前 我們去見了港口的行政長官 那張桌子能有這塊地毯長 行政官就坐那兒 我們四個在這裏 我們坐下,喝了點水 每個人都很安靜 那個人看著我,說 “我能為你做些什麼,蓋瑞先生?” (笑)
RSW: Oh, my God. FG: So, I got up. I said to my team, "Let's get out of here." We stood up, we walked out. They followed -- the guy that dragged us there followed us and he said, "You mean you're not going to have lunch with the mayor?" I said, "Nope." "You're not going to have dinner at all?" They just brought us there to hustle this group, you know, to create a project. And we get a lot of that. Luckily, I'm old enough that I can complain I can't travel. (Laughter) I don't have my own plane yet.
烏爾曼:哦,老天 蓋瑞:于是我就站了起來 跟我的團隊說 咱們撤吧 我們站起來,走了出去。 他們跟著——那個人一路跟著我們,然後說 您難道不去和市長吃午餐了嗎? 我說:“不了。” 您也不吃晚餐了嗎? 他們就只是帶我們去那,把這夥人湊在一起, 你知道的,創造出一個計劃。 這樣的还有很多。 還好我已經夠老的了 我可以把不能長途旅行當藉口。 (笑) 我還沒有私人飛機。
RSW: Well, I'm going to wind this up and wind up the meeting because it's been very long. But let me just say a couple words.
烏爾曼:我要收收尾了,差不多結束這次談話 因為它已經夠長的了 请允许我說兩句
FG: Can I say something? Are you going to talk about me or you? (Laughter) (Applause)
蓋瑞:我能說兩句嗎? 你是想說我還是你自己啊? (笑) (鼓掌♫)
RSW: Once a shit, always a shit!
江山易改本性難移
FG: Because I want to get a standing ovation like everybody, so ...
蓋瑞:我是想體驗一下站起來接受掌聲的感覺,所以
RSW: You're going to get one! You're going to get one! (Laughter)
烏爾曼:肯定有機會的嘛! (笑)
I'm going to make it for you!
烏爾曼:我要給你鼓個掌先!
FG: No, no. Wait a minute! (Applause)
蓋瑞:不,不,等等! (鼓掌♫)