Chris Anderson: Dr. Şahin and Dr. Türeci, welcome.
克里斯·安德森 (Chris Anderson): 萨欣博士 (Chris Anderson),
Such a treat to speak with you.
图雷西博士 (Dr. Türeci), 非常欢迎。 能和你们交谈真是太好了。
Özlem Türeci: Thank you very much, Chris. It's a pleasure to be here.
厄兹勒姆·图雷西 (Özlem Türeci): 十分感谢,克里斯。 很高兴来到这里。
CA: So tell me, as you think back over the last 18 months, what words pop to mind for you?
克·安:当你回顾过去的 18 个月, 头脑中会跳出哪些词?
ÖT: Well, one word which comes to mind is breathless. It was indeed a breathless 16, 17 months for us. When we started in January last year, it was already at that time clear to us that we were already in a pandemic. What was not known was how fast this pandemic would evolve and whether we would have the time in the first place to have a vaccine ready soon enough in due time. And understanding this, it meant for us that there was not even one day to lose. And this was the mindset of the entire team here in Mainz and at BioNTech and later on also of our partners which were involved, Pfizer and others, to keep going and be fast.
厄·图: 我能想到的 一个词是“气喘吁吁”。 对我们来说,这过去的 16 或 17 个月确实令人喘不过气。 我们去年 1 月 开始这项工作的时候, 就已经很清楚, 我们已身处疫情之中。 我们尚不清楚的是, 疫情的发展速度会有多快, 我们是否有时间 在适当的时候, 足够快地研制出疫苗。 我们明白, 这意味着我们不能 损失哪怕一天的时间。 在美因滋,这是 BioNTech 整个团队的观念模式。 之后,这也成为了 辉瑞和其他伙伴的观念模式, 持续、快速前进。
CA: I mean, it's so extraordinary that the ideas and the work in your minds have now impacted hundreds of millions, perhaps billions of people. That must feel overwhelming. And yet, I know at the same time, you don't believe in this notion of a flash-in-the-pan ideas. Steven Johnson, the author, in his book "Where [Good] Ideas Come From," speaks of the slow hunch, that the best ideas happen over many years. And I know that you believe that is true in your case. I'd like us to go back a couple of decades to -- tell us how this began. How did you meet?
克·安:你们想出来的主意和办法 已经影响到了数亿, 甚至数十亿人口, 这真是太了不起了。 这肯定是一种排山倒海的感觉。 但是,我也知道 你们不相信昙花一现的主意。 史蒂文·约翰逊 (Steven Johnson), 《[好]主意是从哪里来的》的作者, 在这本书里谈到了“慢直觉”, 最好的主意要用 多年的时间才会产生。 我知道,你们认为, 就你们而言,这是正确的。 我想让咱们回到几十年前—— 跟我们说说,这一切是怎么开始的。 你们俩是怎么遇到的?
ÖT: We met on an oncohematology ward, Uğur being a young physician, and I was still in medical school training on ward. Which means we met in one of the worlds which became important to us, the world of patient care, of treating oncohematology patients. And we soon found out that there was a second world which we liked, namely the world of science. We were haunted by the same dilemma, namely that whereas there was not much we could offer our cancer patients, there were so many potential technologies we encountered in the lab which could address this. So one of our shared visions was to bridge this dilemma by working on bringing science and technology fast. And that's an important word here. Fast to the patient's bedside to address high medical need.
厄·图: 我们是在 血液肿瘤病房遇到的, 乌尔当时是一位年轻的内科医生, 我还在医学院接受病房训练。 这意味着,我们相遇的地方是一个 对我们将十分重要的世界。 这是个照顾患者, 治疗血液肿瘤病人的世界。 我们很快发现 还有另一个让我们喜爱的世界, 那就是科学的世界。 我们为同一个两难困境所困扰, 一方面我们为癌症患者 提供不了太多帮助, 然而,我们在实验室里 遇到许多很有潜力的技术, 这些技术可以解决这个问题。 所以,我们共同的愿景是, 通过努力推动科学技术的快速发展 来解决这个困境。 “快速”是个至关重要的词。 将科技快速带到患者的床榻, 以满足医疗的高度需求
CA: So I think the first company you founded nearly 20 years ago was to use the power of the human immune system to tackle cancer.
克·安: 我想,差不多 20 年前, 你们创立的第一家公司 是利用人体免疫系统的 自身力量来治疗癌症。
Uğur Şahin: We were always interested in using the patient's immune system to fight cancer and other type of diseases. As immunologists, we knew how powerful the human immune system is. But it was also clear that the human immune system, in the case of cancer, did not fight cancer cells. It could fight it, but it didn't. And for that, we wanted to develop immunotherapies. That means treatments that use the power of the immune system and redirect the power of the immune system to cancer cells. It was clear that in the university setting, we could not continue to develop monoclonal antibodies because the cost for development of monoclonal antibodies before you can start a clinical trial, was in the range of 20, 30 million euros, and therefore we decided to start a company to get the funding.
乌尔·萨欣:我们的兴趣一直都是 利用病人的免疫系统 来抵抗癌症及其他类型的疾病。 作为免疫学专家,我们知道人类的 免疫系统有多么强大。 但是同样清楚的是,就癌症而言, 人类的免疫系统 并不与癌细胞展开搏斗。 它可以抵抗癌细胞, 但是没有做出这样的反应。 为此,我们想到要研发免疫疗法。 就是说,利用免疫系统的 力量来进行治疗, 把这种力量导向癌细胞。 当时很清楚,在大学里, 我们不可能继续培养单株抗体, 因为培养单株抗体的成本巨大。 在开始临床试验前, 成本就已经在 2 千到 3 千万欧元, 所以我们决定创建一家公司, 以此来获得资金。
CA: Now, soon after you started this company, you decided to get married. Tell me about your wedding day.
克·安:公司开办不久, 你们就决定结婚了。 跟我讲讲你们婚礼当天的情况。
ÖT: Day was well planned, a quick wedding. And thereafter we went back to the laboratory and our guests at our wedding, that was basically our team, our research team. So no time to lose, Chris.
厄·图:那一天是经过精心策划的, 婚礼非常短暂。 婚礼之后,我们就回到了实验室。 婚礼上的客人基本上 都是我们团队的成员, 我们科研团队的人。 没有时间去浪费,克里斯。
CA: (Laughs) That was a pretty special honeymoon. I mean, it seems like your love for each other is very much bound up in your love for this work and your sense of the importance of this work. How would you characterize those intersecting relationships there?
克·安:(笑声) 那是个非常特别的蜜月。 似乎你们对彼此的爱 与你们对这项工作的爱, 以及对它的重视紧密相关。 你们会如何描述 这些相互交叉的关系呢?
UŞ: We are really two scientists. At the end of the day, we love what we do, and for us, we don't differentiate between work and life balance. It's for us really a privilege to be scientists, to be able to do what we love. And therefore, we combine our normal life with our professional life. And therefore, this is pretty normal for us.
乌·萨: 我们是两个科学家。 不管怎么说, 我们热爱自己从事的工作, 对于我们而言, 我们并不区分工作和 生活间的平衡关系。 能够成为科学家, 从事自己热爱的工作, 是我们的一种荣幸。 因此,我们把日常生活和 职业生活融合了起来。 这对我们来说非常正常。
CA: So talk to me about this extraordinary molecule RNA, and how you got interested in it and how it became, as I understand it, an increasing focus of your work. And indeed, it led to the founding of BioNTech. Talk about that.
克·安:跟我讲讲,核糖核酸 RNA 这个非同寻常的分子, 你们怎么对它产生了兴趣? 就我了解,你们工作的焦点 越来越集中在这方面, 这是如何发生的? 事实上,它促成了 BioNTech 的建立。 谈一谈这些情况。
UŞ: Yeah, mRNA is a natural molecule, it's one of the first molecules of life. It is a carrier of genetic information. But in contrast to DNA, it's not stable. So it can be used to transfer information to human cells. And the human cells can use this information to build proteins, which can be used for therapeutic settings, for example, to make a protein which is a vaccine, or to make a protein which is an antibody, or to make a protein which is another type of drug. And we were fascinated by this molecule class, because it was very clear that mRNA can be produced pretty fast, within a few days. And we were, as MDs, we were particularly interested to develop personalized medicines. That means a treatment and immunotherapy specifically designed for a cancer patient, because one of the key challenges in cancer treatment, is that every patient has a different tumor. If you compare two tumors of two patients with the same type of tumor, the similarity of the tumors is less than three percent and 97 percent is really unique. And today, it's still not possible to address the uniqueness of the tumor of a patient. And therefore, we were seeking for a technology which could be used for immunotherapy and which could be used to develop a treatment within the shortest possible time. The idea to get the genetic sequence of the tumor and then make a vaccine which is personalized, within a few weeks.
乌·萨:信使核糖核酸 mRNA 是一个自然分子, 是最初的生命分子中的一种。 它载有遗传信息。 但是,与脱氧核糖核酸 DNA 相比,它十分不稳定, 所以可以用来向人体细胞输送信息。 人体细胞可以利用 这些信息来生成蛋白质, 而蛋白质则可以用于治疗性情境, 比如,生成疫苗蛋白, 抗体蛋白, 或者其他药物蛋白。 这类分子令我们着迷, 因为,很明显 mRNA 可以 很快在几天内生产出来。 我们作为医学博士, 对研发个性化药物特别感兴趣。 这意味着,为每一位癌症患者 特别制定一套治疗方案及免疫疗法, 因为癌症治疗中的一个关键挑战是 每位患者的肿瘤都不尽相同。 如果比较两位患者的 同类型肿瘤的话, 两个肿瘤间的相似度不到 3%, 97% 的成分都很独特。 如今,仍然无法 解决患者肿瘤的独特性。 所以, 我们当时在寻找一种 可以用于免疫疗法的技术, 这个技术可以在尽可能短的时间内 研制出一种治疗方案。 我们的想法是 先获取肿瘤的基因排序, 之后在几周之内制造一种 个性化的疫苗
CA: Is it fair to say that almost all of the significant things that happen to us biologically are actions done by proteins, and that it's mRNA that actually makes those proteins? If you can understand the language of mRNA, you can get involved in pretty much everything of significance to the well-being of a human being.
克·安:是否可以说 在我们身上, 几乎所有重要的生物活动 都是由蛋白质来完成的, 而这些蛋白质正是 由 mRNA 制造的? 如果你能够理解 mRNA 的语言, 就可以参与到几乎每件 对人类健康有重要意义的事情中。
ÖT: Exactly. So in principle, the information instructions are in the DNA. These have to be translated into protein because proteins are the actors which keep our cells alive and our organism functional. And the way how to translate what is instructed by DNA in a fashion that it is well-timed and happens at the right places, into protein, there is messenger RNA. Messenger RNA sort of instructs when and how much of which protein has to be built in order to ensure the activity of our body.
厄·图:完全正确。 原则上讲, 信息指令存储在 DNA 里。 这些指令必须转化传达给蛋白质, 因为蛋白质的作用是,维持细胞生命 和有机体的功能。 如何把 DNA 的指令 在适当时刻和正确地点 传达给蛋白质 是信使 RNA 的功能。 在某种程度上讲,信使 RNA 就蛋白质的合成时间和 所需数量做出指示, 以此来确保我们身体的正常活动。
CA: So you can almost think of DNA as the sort of The Oxford English Dictionary of Language. It sort of sits there as the reference point. But for the actual living work, the living work of language out there in the world instructing things, that is done by mRNA.
克·安:所以, 差不多可以把 DNA 看作是某种《牛津英语词典》。 差不多是一个参照点。 但是实际工作, 也就是语言在外部世界里 指导事物的工作, 要由 mRNA 来完成。
UŞ: Yeah, absolutely, it is possible. So the human cells, exactly, DNA is like a library. If you have the platform for the messenger RNA therapy, you can deliver any type of message and the body cells ensure that the message is translated into the right protein.
乌·萨:是的,这绝对可能。 人类细胞, 确切地说, DNA 就像一座图书馆。 如果你有一个 信使 RNA 的治疗平台, 你就可以传递任何类型的信息, 而人体细胞可确保将信息转化成 正确的蛋白质。
ÖT: A high advantage of mRNA is that it is so versatile. You can deliver all sorts of messages, as Uğur has called them. On the one hand, you can deliver the blueprint for the protein which you want to be produced in this cell. But you can, with the same molecule, also design into the mRNA instructions how this protein should be built, instructions to the protein factories of the cell. So you can define whether you want this protein to be built in high amounts or for a long duration, how the pharmacokinetics of this protein should be in the cell.
厄·图:mRNA 的 一大优势是用途广泛。 你可以传递各种各样的信息, 就像乌尔说的那样。 一方面,你可以为需要在细胞内 生成的蛋白质传递蓝图。 但是,用同一种分子, 你还可以在 mRNA 内设计指令, 规定该如何制造这个蛋白质。 这些指令将传递给 细胞中的蛋白加工厂。 所以,你可以限定 是否希望大量或者长期 制造这种蛋白质, 以及蛋白质在细胞内 该如何发挥药物的代谢动力。
CA: So talk about January of last year when you first heard about this new virus that was spreading.
克·安:谈一谈去年一月份, 当时你们第一次听说 有一种新的病毒正在流行。
UŞ: So in the end of January, we read a paper published about this outbreak in Wuhan, and realized that this new outbreak has all features to become a global pandemic, and we were concerned that our life will change, that this outbreak could change the fate of mankind. And we knew that we have this messenger RNA technology, which was actually developed for personalized cancer therapy. But the idea of personalized cancer therapy is to get the genetic information of the patient and then make a vaccine as fast as possible. And we had now the same situation. It was not a personalized vaccine, but it was a genetic information of the virus, which was released two weeks earlier. And so this genetic information of this virus was available, and our task was to make a vaccine as fast as possible. And the challenge at that time point was, there was almost nothing known about this virus. It was a completely new virus. We had some assumptions which target which molecule encoded by the virus could be the right target. That means the molecule which can be used to precisely engineer an immune attack. This is the spike protein. It is on the surface of the virus. And there's not only one copy of the spike protein on the virus, but multiple in the range of 20, 25, 30 spike proteins. And the spike protein has two functions. One function is really to enable that the virus sticks to human cells. For example, it sticks to cells in the human lung. And the second is that the spike protein acts as a key. It allows the virus to enter into the cells. Our goal was to engineer an immune response.
乌·萨:一月底的时候, 我们读到一篇关于 武汉爆发疫情的论文, 意识到这次新近爆发的疫情 具有成为全球大流行的所有特征, 我们担心生活将会发生改变, 这次爆发可能会改变人类的命运。 我们知道,我们拥有 信使 RNA 技术, 它实际上是为癌症的 个性化治疗而研发的。 但是这个个性化治疗癌症的想法 就是获取患者的基因信息, 然后尽快生产出一种疫苗。 我们当时处于类似的情形之中。 但不是个性化的疫苗, 而是病毒的基因信息, 这些信息在两个星期前 就已经公布了。 所以,我们可以获得 病毒的基因信息, 我们的任务就是 尽快研造出一种疫苗。 当时的挑战是 我们对病毒几乎一无所知。 这是一种全新的病毒。 我们有一些假设, 即哪个分子在被病毒编码后 可以成为正确的目标分子。 这意味着,我们可以用这个分子来 设计精准的免疫攻击。 这个就是刺突蛋白。 它在病毒的表层。 病毒表面不只有一个刺突蛋白副本, 而是有 20,25,30 个刺突蛋白。 刺突蛋白有两个功能。 一是使病毒能够附着在人体细胞上。 比如,它可以吸附在人的肺脏器官里。 第二个功能是,刺突蛋白 有钥匙的作用。 它可以让病毒进入细胞。 我们的目标是设计出一种免疫反应。
CA: You've got a slide showing the T-cell response to your vaccine. How long were you into the process before you saw this and you saw, wow, there really is a spectacular response going on here?
克·安:你们的一张幻灯片显示 T 细胞对你们的疫苗产生了反应。 你们工作了多久,才看到这个反应, 才看到,哇,这里产生的 反应的确惊人?
ÖT: We saw this already in the animal models because they are also meant to assess the immune response. And what is shown on this slide is on the left side, a lymph node from a setting where there was no RNA treatment or RNA vaccination. And on the right side, a lymph node of a treated organism, in this case, an animal. And the localization matters. And we have constructed our RNA nanoparticles, with encapsulation into lipids such that the mRNA is carried into lymph nodes, not just anywhere, it's carried into lymph nodes and in the lymph nodes it reaches a very special cell type, which is called dendritic cells, and these cells are coaches of the immune system. So they are the generals which call all the different special forces and train them on the wanted poster of attacker. And it's very important that you reach those cells. On the right side, you can see the effect of reaching those cells. You see many red dots. And these are T-cells which have been trained to recognize the antigen, the protein which mRNA has delivered, and they have expanded to a sort of army of clones, so to say. So all these red dots are an army which only knows one goal, namely attacking this specific protein encoded by the mRNA.
厄·图:我们在动物模式中 就已经看了到这个反应, 因为这些模式也是 用于评估免疫反应的。 在这个幻灯片上 左边显示的是一个淋巴结, 其所处环境没有经过 RNA 处理, 也没有 RNA 疫苗。 右边显示的淋巴结来自 一个处理过的有机体, 这里,是一只动物。 定位非常重要。 我们已经建构了 RNA 纳米粒子, 把它用脂肪包裹起来, 这样 mRNA 就可以 被携带到淋巴结内, 不是带到任何一个地方, 而是淋巴结。 在淋巴结内, 它会接触到一类非常特殊的细胞, 称为树突细胞。 这些细胞是免疫系统的教练。 他们是将军,集结各种 不同的特种部队, 并在需要的攻击岗位上训练他们。 抵达这些细胞非常重要。 在右边,你可以看到 抵达这些细胞所产生的效果。 你可以看到许多红色的斑点。 这些是 T 细胞,他们经过 训练可以识别抗原, 也就是 mRNA 传递的蛋白质。 可以说,T 细胞已经 扩大成某种克隆部队。 所以,所有这些红色斑点 组成了一只部队, 他们只有一个目标, 即,攻击那个经 mRNA 编码过的特殊蛋白。
CA: So it's really stunning that within just a few days of your looking at this sequence of the most dangerous pathogen to hit humanity in 100 years, I guess, that you were able to come up with these these candidate vaccines. And I guess over the course of the next weeks and months, you had growing confidence that, wow, this was going to work. It wasn't until the results of the human trials came out, I guess in November of last year, that you really knew. Tell us about that moment.
克·安:这个太惊人了。 你们在看到,我猜,100 年间 最危险的病原体序列后的几天内, 就能得到这些备选疫苗。 我想,在此后的几周,或几个月内, 你们变得越来越有信心, 相信,哇,这个将会起作用。 但是直到人体试验得出结果后, 我想,那是去年11月, 你们才能对此确信无疑。 跟我们谈谈那个时刻。
ÖT: It was a Sunday when we were waiting for these results, which are assessed in such trials by an independent committee and Uğur said, "So let's see how the data will look like." It was not clear whether it would be a thumbs up or down. And we were very relieved. And I felt blessed to hear that the vaccine was efficacious and it was highly efficacious, over 90 percent.
厄·图:那是个星期日, 我们正在等待结果, 这些试验结果由 一个独立委员会进行评审。 乌尔说,“让咱们来看看 这些数据看起来如何。” 我们尚不清楚,结果是好还是坏。 我们松了一大口气。 当得知疫苗不但有效, 而且有效性超过 90% 时 , 我感到非常幸运。
CA: And that more than 90 percent almost disguises the full extent, because that's just against any kind of level of infection of COVID. Severe infection and fatalities were almost completely protected against, I think. And it must have been an ecstatic moment for you. Certainly was for so many people around the world.
克·安:超过 90% 的有效性 几乎遮盖了其全景, 因为疫苗针对的是任何 程度的冠状病毒感染。 它几乎可以完全预防 重症感染和死亡, 我是这么认为的。 对于你们而言,那必定是 一个欣喜若狂的时刻。 毫无疑问,对世界各地 很多人来说它正是如此。
UŞ: Yes, absolutely. So this was a Sunday evening, and there were a handful of people knowing that an effective vaccine is existing against this global pandemic. And we were so excited and so happy and we shared of course this information the next day.
乌·萨:是的,一点不错。 那是一个星期天的晚上, 只有少数几个人知道, 世上有了一种可以有效对抗 这次全球疫情的疫苗。 我们非常激动,非常高兴, 当然我们第二天就分享了这个消息。
CA: So based on what's happened this time around and the amazing acceleration, compared with any other vaccine development, I mean, if we were hit by another virus, could you picture that next time we could accelerate the time line further still if need be?
克·安:基于目前的状况, 相较于任何其他疫苗的研发速度, 当前的加速度令人惊叹。 如果我们受到另一种病毒的冲击, 你们是否可以想象,下次, 如果需要的话, 我们还可以进一步缩短时间表?
UŞ: Yes, Chris, this is an excellent question. Actually, the world was not prepared to deal with such a pandemic. The science and the vaccine developers reacted in an excellent fashion. And it is incredible and wonderful that it was possible to come up with an effective vaccine while a pandemic is ongoing, in less than 12 months. But the challenges that we have at the moment is that we don't have sufficient production capacity. Ideally, we would be prepared the next time, not only to develop a vaccine in light speed, but also to to make and distribute the vaccine in light speed. So what we need now is an additional element which was not existing, is manufacturing capacity. And idle manufacturing capacity. We must be bringing us into a position that we can produce 12 billion doses of vaccine, if you consider prime boost, within less than six months. And this is technically possible. So this can be done if governments and international organizations invest into manufacturing capacity, invest into keeping this idle capacity, and also come up with a standard time span and process to enable even faster response. So we in principle, we might be able to manage to come up with a vaccine and start distribution in even less than eight months.
乌·萨:是的,克里斯, 这是个很好的问题。 实际上,这个世界并没有准备好 来对付这样的大规模流行病。 科学和疫苗研发人员 做出了非常出色的反应。 令人惊叹且难以置信的是, 在疫情大流行期间, 用了不到 12 个月的时间, 就能生产出一种有效的疫苗。 我们目前面对的挑战是 我们的生产能力不足。 理想状况下, 我们可以为下次疫情做好准备, 不仅要以光速来研发疫苗, 而且要以光速来制造和分配疫苗。 所以,我们现在需要的是 一个以前没有的附加要素, 即制造能力。 以及闲置制造能力。 我们必须具有 在 6 个月内,生产 120 亿剂疫苗的能力, 如果把追加疫苗也考虑进来的话。 技术上,这是有可能的。 所以,如果各国政府和国际组织 对提高制造力和维持闲置生产力 进行投资的话, 这是可以做到的。 此外,还需要有一个 标准的时间限度和响应流程 以提高反应速度。 所以,原则上, 我们甚至可以设法在 不到 8 个月的时间内, 完成疫苗研制,并开始疫苗分发。
CA: What does what's happened in this last year tell you now about the prospects for using mRNA to treat cancer and indeed other diseases? Where is this heading?
克·安:就利用 mRNA 治疗 癌症和其他疾病的前景而言 过去一年中发生的事情, 对你们有什么启发吗? 其发展方向是什么?
UŞ: What we have now is now an approved technology and a first approved product. The development of the coronavirus mRNA vaccine shows the power of the mRNA and it shows also the safety of this approach. And it shows that it opens up a door for new technology and for new type of treatments. And the mRNA molecules that we are currently using for cancer, we have more than 10 products now in clinical development, are diverse against different types of cancer. We are very confident that the success that we have generated now for our infectious disease vaccines can be continued with our cancer immunotherapies.
乌·萨:我们现在有了 一个经过审批的技术, 和一个首次获批的产品。 针对冠状病毒而研发出的 mRNA 疫苗展示了 mRNA 的威力, 也显示了这个方法的安全性。 这还显示了 它为新技术和新的治疗方法 打开了一扇大门。 我们目前用于癌症治疗的 mRNA 分子 已有 10 多种产品 正处在临床研发中。 这些分子种类多样, 可以针对不同的癌症类型。 我们非常有信心, 目前在传染病疫苗上取得的成功 可以在癌症免疫疗法中 继续取得成功。
CA: Some people may hear this and say this is just another type of drug that's coming along. But I think on the mental model you're talking about, we should think about it as much more revolutionary than that, that typically a drug, a traditional drug, kind of changes the chemical environment, the background of an entire area of the body. But your -- If you understand the language of mRNA, you can do something much more specific and precise. Is that something like a fair way to think about it?
克·安:有些人听到这个 也许会说,这不过是 另一种即将上市的药物罢了。 但我想,就你谈到的思维模式而言, 我们应该把这看作是 一种更具革命性的疗法。 典型的传统药物治疗 改变的是化学环境, 也就是全身的背景环境。 但是…… 如果你理解了 mRNA 的语言, 就可以进行更加具体精准的治疗。 这么想是否合理?
ÖT: Yes, indeed. It could be the next revolution in the biopharm landscape.
厄·图:确实是这样。 这可以是生物制药领域里的 下一场革命。
UŞ: At the end of the day, disease is a situation where the communication between cells is disturbed. So, for example, autoimmune disease is a disease condition where immune cells attack normal cells. And indeed, we could engineer messenger RNA therapies which could teach the immune system to stop to do that, without inhibiting the whole immune system, by just communicating with the immune cells which are attacking. We could be precise and more specific.
乌·萨:归根结底, 疾病是一种问题状态, 在这种状态下, 细胞间的交流受到了干扰。 比如说,自身免疫系统疾病是 一种免疫细胞攻击正常细胞的疾病。 的确,我们可以设计出 各种信使 RNA 疗法, 这些疗法可以 教会免疫系统停止攻击, 而不必抑制整个免疫系统的功能, 只要与那些正在进攻的免疫细胞 取得交流,就能做到这一点。 我们的疗法可以 非常精准,更有针对性。
CA: The success of BioNTech over the last couple of years, I think the value of the company has rocketed because of the amazingness of what's happened. I mean, it's made you both extremely wealthy, I think you're both billionaires now. How have you been able to respond to that? Sometimes so much money brings its own problems with it. Is that proving a distraction?
克·安:BioNTech 公司在过去 几年里取得了成功, 公司价值飙升, 正是因为有了这些惊人业绩。 这让你们变得极其富有, 我想,你们现在都是亿万富翁了。 你们是如何对待这件事的? 有时,钱太多也会出问题。 这是否是一件令人分心的事?
ÖT: For a company which sees innovation as its core mission, too much money is never a problem. Because innovation really means that you have to invest. Otherwise, we will only have two type of products or incremental improvement for solutions of high medical need.
厄·图:对于一家 把创新视为其核心使命的公司来说, 钱太多从来都不是一个问题, 因为创新就意味着你必须进行投资。 否则,我们就只能有两种产品, 或者只能逐渐改进 那些有着极高医疗需求的解决方案。
UŞ: It really gives us the chance to transform our company. So we were when we started -- When we compare ourselves with the situation we had at the beginning of 2020, we had a number of product candidates in clinical testing, but the company required funding every year or every second year. Now we have a situation to really address the full vision of the company. We started BioNTech with the idea really to provide novel treatments wherever there is a high unmet medical need. And we now can do that in a much larger and broader scale, and bring our innovations faster to patients.
乌·萨:这的确给了我们 一个改造公司的机会。 当我们刚起步的时候—— 与我们在 2020 年初的状况相比较 我们当时有几个候选产品 正在临床试验中, 但是公司每年,或每两年, 就需要有资金投入。 现在的状态让我们可以 真正着手实现公司的全部愿景。 创建 BioNTech 的初衷是 只要有高度的医疗需求 尚未得到满足, 我们就可以为其提供 全新的治疗方案。 我们现在有能力以更大更广的 规模来实现这一点, 而且可以更迅速地 把我们的创新提供给患者。
CA: You are both from families who immigrated from Turkey to Germany. Immigrants have faced hard times in many countries, including Germany. And yet you, I think, have helped transform the debate about immigration, in Germany and elsewhere, just by the extraordinary success that you've achieved creating this world-leading company in Germany. Do you take joy for the impact you may have had on this issue?
克·安:你们两位都来自 德国的土耳其移民家庭。 移民在许多国家,包括德国在内, 都经历过艰难时期。 但是,我认为, 你们帮助改变了德国以及其他各地 关于移民问题的争论, 这是因为你们取得了卓越成就, 在德国创建了一家领先世界的公司。 你们是否为自己在这个问题上 可能产生的影响而高兴呢?
UŞ: It is somehow surprising because the way how we do science, and how we recognize how people work effectively in teams together is not to us from where the person is coming, but what the person can contribute. So in our company, we have employees from more than 60 countries. So we are an international group of scientists, as any other research institution. So we have to recognize that globalization really helps to bring people, scientists or other engineers into one place, allowing to work together and to come with extraordinary results. For us, this is somehow surprising that this is seen as special. It is just the way how excellent research and science work.
乌·萨:这个有些令人吃惊, 因为我们从事科学研究的方式, 以及识别人们是否能够有效地 与团队一起工作的方式, 不是看那个人从哪里来, 而是看这个人可以贡献些什么。 所以在我们的公司里, 有着来自 60 多个国家的雇员。 我们是一个国际化的科学家小组, 就跟其他研究机构一样。 我们必认识到全球化的确有助于 把人员、科学家或其他 工程设计人员聚到一起, 让他们能够一同工作, 取得卓越的成就。 对我们来说,把这事看得很特别, 是有些令人惊讶的。 这不过是出色的科学研究 应有的运作方式。
CA: Well, it's extraordinary and inspiring what you've achieved, and it'll be very exciting to track progress over the coming years. Thank you so much. Thank you.
克·安:你们的成就非同凡响, 而且振奋人心, 追踪你们未来几年的进展 将会非常令人激动。 非常感谢。谢谢。