Chris Anderson: Welcome to The TED Interview. I’m Chris Anderson, and this is the podcast series where I sit down with a TED speaker, and we dive much deeper into their ideas than was possible during their TED Talk. Today on the show, one of the world’s most famous introverts, Susan Cain. Seven years ago, Susan called for something of a revolution in how the world should think about introverts. She published a best-selling book called "Quiet," and she also gave a TED Talk: "The Power of Introverts." The book and the talk were packed with ideas on how to avoid doing what we often do to introverts: make them suffer and ignore their superpowers.
(Recorded talk) Susan Cain: ...and it's our loss, for sure. But it is also our colleagues' loss and our communities' loss. And at the risk of sounding grandiose, it is the world's loss, because when it comes to creativity and to leadership, we need introverts doing what they do best.
CA: Speaking as something of an introvert myself, I find this whole topic super interesting. Really, talking with Susan is kind of like coming home, and in the next hour, we'll be discussing how to better manage our places of work, our schools, our relationships, and explore what the scientific understanding of introversion really is. Susan Cain, welcome.
SC: Thank you so much. It's great to be here.
CA: We’re very excited to have you here. You’re a revolutionary. Honestly, you’ve ushered in this revolution. I think we can say that, because not many people do anything like you have done. So, introversion-extroversion: let's talk some science. I'd love to hear your definition, fundamentally, of how we should think about what an introvert is versus an extrovert.
SC: The one-minute answer: you could ask yourself how do you feel when you show up at a party that you're truly enjoying, with company you truly like? If you're an extrovert, it's as if you have an internal battery that is getting charged by that experience. So at the end of the two hours, now your battery's charged, you're raring to go, you're looking for more. And if you're an introvert, no matter how socially skilled you are and no matter how much fun you've been having, after two or three hours, you just start to hit that mark where you wish you could kind of teleport home. You probably know this feeling well, right? Like, there you are --
CA: Oh, I do.
SC:... at the wonderful TED dinner, and then suddenly, "Oh, I wish I could go."
CA: Yeah, and people assume that because I host TED, I must be an extrovert. You know, here's this conference with 1,500 people there, and you have these big events, and you have to go around and glad-hand people and so forth. And people assume I must be an extrovert, and I'm not. And that is exactly what happens to me. Actually, it's not even two hours. It's about 74 minutes. My battery sort of hits, "Oh, God, I just have to get out of here and breathe." So, there's plenty of types of social stimulation that introverts are actually great at. Draw that distinction for me. What is the difference between social stimulation that an introvert actually is great at, versus what they get depleted by?
SC: Yeah. And I don't want to say "great," because there are introverts who are really great at any number of types of social interactions. Everybody's got their different ones that they like, but there's a big difference between what you're good at and what you enjoy doing or feel energized by. So it really does vary by person. In general, you can say for lots of introverts, they prefer a one-on-one conversation. They prefer to direct more of their social energy to family or to the people who they know and love best. But then there's also this subset of introverts who I discovered through my research who love performing. You know, they love being onstage, and for them, that's the real comfort zone. You talk to comedians and actors, and lots of them will tell you that they're really comfortable when they're up onstage doing their prescribed role, and then the minute they step off and have to mingle at the cocktail party, that's when the discomfort comes for them.
CA: Well, you're in control in that situation. You are not exposed to random things that you don't know where you might take you, it's -- you own the stage. And there's something very powerful and different about that than having to figure out small talk in a social setting.
SC: That's exactly it. And when you look at what's happening neurobiologically for a lot of introverts, what it really is is a nervous system that reacts more to all the different bits of incoming stimulation. So if you think about a cocktail party or something like that, there's so much coming at you, so much you have to decode all at once, and it doesn't matter how big a brain you have. Your nervous system is just experiencing that as a kind of bombardment.
CA: So I read that in your book, where you said that often, the key marker for an introvert child is one who reacts more strongly to stimulation.
SC: Mm-hmm.
CA: What kind of child were you, for example?
SC: Oh, gosh. Well, I think as a child I was really similar to the way I am now, which is, I really liked people and I always made friends pretty easily, but I liked to hang out with people usually one person at a time or in small settings, and I tended to like the company of people who I knew really well, and you could, oh, I don't know, as a kid you don't think about talking about things deeply, but I liked that kind of socializing. And I liked to spend a lot of time reading. I grew up in a family where all of that was really normal and par for the course, and I became aware at a pretty early age that my preference of how I liked to spend my time didn't always match up with the way people thought that kids were supposed to be. You know, there was this feeling that you'd want to get together in a group of kids and sing a song, just this kind of constant socializing.
CA: Were there lots of awkward or painful moments as a child, where you were just, "No, please don't make me do that. I don't want to go to that party," or, "That's too hard for me"?
SC: Well, I was shy as a child, so I had a lot of those moments of shyness in situations where I didn't know the people well. Or I was really into figure skating when I was a kid and, you know, every figure skater gets nervous before they go out on the ice for their performance or competition, but I really suffered more than your typical skater would. Until I learned how to deal with that side of myself, yeah, that would sort of show up and get in the way sometimes.
CA: I mean, you explain in the book that shyness, per se, is not necessarily the same as introversion. Explain that difference.
SC: Yeah. I always think of the book and the work that I do as being about both shyness and introversion and the whole constellation of traits that goes along with this way of being, even though they really are separate. And you could be an introvert who's not shy, and you could be a super extrovert who is shy in new situations. So, shyness is about the fear of social judgment. So if you're going out on the ice and everybody's watching you, you're feeling an acutely, painfully heightened self-consciousness. And then later on in life it would show up in job interviews and things like that. And introversion is much more about the preference for environments where there's just a little less going on, you know, it's more mellow, it's more chill, and that's where you feel that you're most alive.
CA: So someone could be shy but be an extrovert, in the sense that they actually want to connect with other people, they just don't know how to, and they're fearful of that moment of initiating connection, perhaps. So, there's a child sort of reluctant to go out and introduce themselves to someone, because they don't know what to say. But when they do, then they're happy to spend lots and lots of time with those people.
SC: Yeah.
CA: Whereas the introvert may or may not be shy, they may actually be quite good at the initial hello, but within half an hour, are feeling stress inside and wanting to retreat. Is that the difference?
SC: Yeah, it’s something like that. The only thing I would say is, the question of, are you good at the initial hello or not, could kind of go either way. Because, I think of how you do with the initial hello in many ways has to do with a social skill that a child and then later an adult sort of acquires over time. But, I'm thinking a lot about the internal experience: What are you feeling? How joyful do you feel to be entering into this gathering of people, or how nervous do you feel?
CA: Right. So, you were both shy and introverted --
SC: Yes.
CA: And by the way, I was as well as a kid. I felt both intensely. The first day at a new school was so stressful, so hard. I could hardly cope with that.
SC: And how long did it take you to feel comfortable?
CA: In some ways, I never did. I was often the socially awkward somewhat outsider who relied on a small number of closer friends. I was never Mr. Popular, and definitely not Mr. Cool. (Laughs)
(Laughter)
CA: But bringing it back to you, I mean, as a shy, introverted kid, how on earth did you end up being a corporate lawyer?
SC: I went to law school, and the strangest thing was that because I was such an unlikely lawyer, I was the last person you ever would have expected to go to law school -- not only because of these personality styles, but also I was much more of a literary kid -- I ended up loving it. I found it just incredibly fascinating, because I experienced the whole thing as if it was just this lark or an adventure, and I was in this foreign country and I just had to figure it all out. And so, I actually felt that way all through law school and for the first few years of practicing law. I was like, "This is great." I was doing the type of law where you're putting deals together for companies. Some of the time, you're spending hours alone in your office poring over a contract and drafting it. It’s funny, because over 50% of lawyers are introverts, according to one study. There are lots of effective ones, and one of the ways that I first started developing this whole thesis about the power of introversion is by watching the attorneys around me for the whole time I was practicing and noticing that there were some who were effective in the kind of stereotypical, you know, taking over the room in a really charismatic kind of way, and others who got there through a really quiet and cerebral and just deeply effective approach.
CA: But to reach the top level, you have to have sort of an ability to schmooze a bit more than was natural for you? Because you had this painful moment, right? When you were pulled aside and [someone] said, "You know, that partner thing you maybe were hoping for? That's probably not in your future." Because you quit after you were told that. Like, you quit pretty soon after that.
SC: Oh -- about three hours later.
(Laughter)
SC: Yeah! I mean, because actually, I had been sort of chafing at it for the last two or three years that I was practicing, and so it was like, the moment that that happened, I felt suddenly set free. So the whole time I had been practicing law, I had completely forgotten -- completely -- about the fact that I had wanted to be a writer. It didn't even enter my head. But the minute I was out, within 24 hours, I started writing. And a week later, I signed up for a class in creative nonfiction writing at NYU. And I showed up at this class, and I still remember this moment of sitting in this class and feeling like, "Ah! This is what I was supposed to be doing the whole time!" And, you know, I had no idea at all that I would ever make a living at it. I never assumed that I could, but I thought, still, I'm going to organize my entire life around this hobby, because this is what I need to do.
CA: And so presumably you look back now on that day, on that moment, as, "Thank goodness that happened."
SC: (Laughs) Yes. Yeah. Because, the environments that we live in tend to be emotionally kind of hermetically sealed, and you don't even realize how much you're operating within that little bubble. During the time I was practicing corporate law and I was starting to get really unhappy, it was maybe three or four years in, and I came across this book. It was called "Do What You Are." And it was a book that helped you figure out what your personality type was and then what your career should be based on that type. And so I did this test, and it was so clear, you know. All the careers for my type were, like, writer, psychologist, clergy person, social worker... You know, it was this very particular constellation that had nothing to do with corporate law. Yeah, and that was also a kind of eureka moment. So I think that kind of self-diagnostic exercise is helpful.
CA: OK, so, you became a writer. And you felt some relief and some, "I have come home" sense to the decision.
SC: More than some. More like every day, overflowing sense of it.
CA: But that was still six or seven years before "Quiet" was published.
SC: Oh, yeah. CA: So seven years is a long time. How many doubts were there during that period?
SC: None, because, as I say --
CA: Wow, none?
SC:... my mindset was that my goal was to publish something by the time I was 75. I really had no expectation, and I was purposely doing that because I loved this act of writing so much that I didn't want everyday concerns to come in between me and it, and so, I set up this little consultancy where I was training people in negotiation skills, and I was making enough of a living doing that, and I could have done that forever, presumably. And I thought, "OK, so I'm just doing this hobby." And it's funny, because now that I'm a professional writer, I mean, I still have the sense of, like, it's some of my happiest moments when I have my daily writing sessions, but every so often, the stresses of it do creep in. And when that happens, I always try to bring myself back to the way writing was for me at the very beginning, when I had zero expectations and it was just a matter of, like, "I'm going to sit in the sunny café window and type."
(Music)
CA: Talk a bit about social stimulation versus other types of stimulation. Like, certainly speaking personally, stimulation that is non-people-based, it's not the loud party or the bar where you have to make clever, cool small talk. Like, if you put me in an IMAX theater, and you were going to show me some drama documentary of the universe with 3-D effects and sound up at the maximum and all these amazing, unexpected visual stimuli coming in, I would say, "Bring it on, that's thrilling. I love that!" Totally open to that. But it's just the party afterwards that I might shy away from. So, is that in the science? Is that talked about and understood, the difference between social stimulation versus just any type of stimulation? It seems like some of the earlier experiments that were done on kids were other types of stimulation, not social, but that the kids that reacted strongly to a noise or whatever, often, that was predictive that they would end up as introverts.
SC: Yeah. OK. That's such a good question, and two separate answers to it. One is that, in your case that you just described, it could be that you're such a lover of ideas that if we put you into the IMAX theater where you're going to learn something about the universe, it could be that your reward system is being so activated and so gratified by the rush of ideas that it overcomes whatever discomfort is coming to you via excessive stimulation. But the other thing is that we're talking here in generalities, but it really varies from person to person. Some people tend to be more sensitive to social stimulation, for some people, it's bright lights, for some people, it's sounds. It's not going to be the same for everybody. Actually, in those experiments that you were just talking about with the children, these were longitudinal studies where scientists started with babies, and they exposed them to sugar water, which is a kind of stimulation. And they found that the babies with a nervous system that reacts more in response to the sugar water, as they grow older, tend to be more reactive to all different kinds of stimulation, including social stimulation. They take the same sugar water babies, put them in a playgroup of kids they've never seen before at age two, and those are going to be the kids who are going to react with more trepidation.
CA: And that right there is strong evidence that at least part of what causes introversion is genetic. Like, you're born with it, at least part.
SC: Partly, yeah. I mean, it's so tricky, because you know, there's no trait that is all one or all the other.
CA: I think this is what you say in the book, as well. Roughly speaking, half of that sort of introversion tendency is probably inherited somehow, and half may well not be and is more mysterious. But it's different in every case, so maybe we should just do a health warning for the rest of the podcast and say, "All this stuff is really complicated." There's exceptions to everything. There are no absolutes in these categories. For one thing, everyone's on a spectrum. What does that spectrum look like, do you think?
SC: You know, it depends on which study you look at, and it's so hard because it depends on how you're defining these terms when you do the study. One that I just looked at found 40% introvert, 20% who would call themselves ambivert -- who are people who really kind of feel that they're in the middle of both -- 40% more on the extrovert side. But as you say, even within those poles, there's no absolute.
CA: It seems to me that people's external persona and what they themselves feel may be different. I think there's a lot of people who look to be extroverts, but --
SC: Yes. Oh, gosh.
CA:... but if you were to actually hear their internal dialogue, they definitely often get that sort of feeling of social stress, of, "I need to breathe, I need some me time, I need to get away. Take me back to my hotel room, take me out of here." Is that right?
SC: I cannot even tell you how many people are described by what you just said. And I first learned this, well, I guess I saw it during my book research, but I really felt it when I gave the TED Talk. You might remember, I was one of the first speakers that year, and I came off the stage and spent the entire rest of that week absolutely besieged by all the other attendees at the conference who all wanted to tell me that what you just described is their living reality. It describes so many people for whom you would least expect it.
CA: Well, so, first of all, we not only made you do a talk, we then put you through hell of being besieged by many, many people.
SC: No, no! Well, this is the thing -- I actually loved that, because I really love to be able to talk to people about what they actually think and feel. For me, small talk is the kryptonite. So, the amazing thing since I've written this book is, I almost never have to do small talk, because people will now talk to me about whatever it is that is making them feel vulnerable. And so, we kind of get to the heart of it.
CA: But based on that, isn't it possible that, rather than saying a third to a half of people are introverts, you might almost say that the majority of people, at times, feel intensely the kinds of feelings that introverts feel? Even someone who shades extrovert overall can actually, perhaps, learn from some of this?
SC: Yeah. I think that's right. I think there are some people for whom the introvert label is like, "OK, that really is me." And then there's other people where, yeah, they just have that experience from time to time. Maybe they have it in a back-to-back day of company meetings or something like that. And I think what's really happening is, for all the talk about how we're all disappearing into our isolated technologies, we still are living in a culture that really does expect us to be "on" a remarkable percentage of the time, often with people who we don't know that well or have never even met before. Which isn't necessarily what we're evolved to do, and so that's difficult for most humans.
CA: So let's talk about that. So, we can agree there is this large group of people who have strong introvert feelings for at least a good portion of the time. How can we be kinder to them? What are some of the things that really, society, we need to raise our game on and do better?
SC: Well, first of all, I mean, being kinder is great, and I guess I wish that were enough impetus in general, but I'll give people another framework, too. You know, we did one study of companies and found that the majority of people believe that their organizations are not harnessing the talents of the introverted half of their workforces. So it's really a bottom-line question as well.
CA: What's distinctive about those talents?
SC: Well, I mean, there are so many different ones. First of all, I'll start with a counterintuitive one, which is, people assume that introverted leadership would be less effective, but the studies that we have and lots of the anecdotal data that we see out there suggests that introverted leaders actually deliver pretty great results. And the studies show that the extroverted leaders, the charismatic ones, tend to get paid more, but they're not necessarily delivering better results. So one thing we've got is a massive waste of potential, of people who could be really effective leaders, because at the same time, there's this data showing effective introverted leadership, there's a different pile of data showing that introverts tend to get passed over for leadership positions. So, we're not using our talent.
CA: Give me an example of two leaders that people might have heard of that sort of -- if you like, stereotypes -- for those two different types of leadership.
SC: Oh, sure. OK. Well, Bill Gates is a great example of an introverted leader, and he's talked about this and about how, when he's faced with a difficult problem, his impulse is to go off and read about it for three days. And you can see what the downside of that might be, that people need the person to actually be there, engaging with them. And the upside is that problems are really complex, and you want a leader who's thinking things through and not just behaving rashly. If you want the extroverted counterpart, there's Steve Ballmer, who was kind of the counterpart to that. And I think that most people who have more extreme temperaments in one direction or another, if they're self-aware enough to be good leaders, they usually know that about themselves, and they look for people around them who will complement them, which makes everybody happier and more effective.
CA: I mean, Bill Gates probably benefited for a long time from having Steve Ballmer there, driving the Microsoft sales force and so forth, while holding the reins on figuring out the strategic vision forward. And even though he was introverted, he was a fierce competitor -- like, really fierce.
(Laughter)
CA: But as you say, he's done OK.
SC: But people assume that if you're introverted, you wouldn't be competitive, you wouldn't be ambitious, and that's not necessarily so, it just kind of shows up differently.
CA: So what are the main misconceptions that people actually have about introversion?
SC: Well, there's a lot of them, but I think the biggest, biggest one probably, is the idea that introverts are antisocial or misanthropic. I think most people really do assume that on some fundamental level, and it's not that at all. It really is about just the wish to socialize differently, and wanting to just kind of allot your social energies in very different ways from what might be conventional.
CA: I mean, if you're running an org and you wanted to boost introvert-powered leaders, how would you even identify them?
SC: Yeah, what I always say to companies when I go in, is that every single person should be thinking of some -- just pick one person who you know in your company, who you would describe as super talented, who is not a so-called "natural leader," and what could you be doing to advance that person? And very often, the best step is to just sit down with that person and let them know how much you've noticed and appreciated what they've been contributing, and find out from them what their wildest dream career looks like one or three or five years from now. People assume that the quiet person is going to be less ambitious, and so you might be shocked to find out that if you really encourage the dreamy version of their career, it actually looks quite bold. And then once you know what it is, then you can kind of together be plotting with them, "Well, how can you get from A to B?" And how can you help them draw on the strengths they already have, and where are the places that they can, little by little by little, step outside their comfort zone?
CA: Well, so, talk more about the introvert-extrovert issue at work, because you've got fairly passionately held opinions on how work offices, for example, could and should be organized. Talk about that.
SC: Yeah, so, well, I told you, before I started writing, I had been a lawyer, right? And at least back then, it was the standard that lawyers had their own offices. So I had this lovely little space looking out at the Statue of Liberty. And then I started writing, ultimately, "Quiet," and I went and I plopped myself in Silicon Valley for a while while I was doing the research, because I figured this is going to be the place that will be a nirvana for introverts, so I want to see what they're doing right. And the first thing I found is that, in company after company, they were all situated in these big, open office plans, with, really, no space to get away. And in those days, it was really not OK to critique that type of plan. So, these people I was interviewing would kind of whisper to me and tell me, you know, "I can't focus. I can't get anything done. But I don't want to tell my boss, because I'm afraid I won't be seen as a team player." And so they would say, "Is there any research that you have that you could give me that maybe I could show my boss in an empirical type of way?" And I thought, "This is really interesting." So I started looking into it, and I found there was this mountain of research. You know, and this is back in 2006, 2007. Lots of data showing that when you have people in open offices, they're less productive, they have trouble focusing. Ironically, they have more trouble forming close connections, because if you think about it, the currency of getting to know someone well is that you're sharing information with them that you might not share with everybody else around you. But if everybody's hearing everything you say, there's not as much of an opportunity to develop those connections. So, the data was all there. Yeah, and I started talking about it, and boy, did that touch a nerve with people.
CA: Indeed! Well, it touched a nerve with me, for one thing. When you said that in your talk, like, ideas spark when you have this sort of catalyst of a creative person here and an analytical person here and someone who knows something else there, and they talk together and kind of, bada boom! An idea erupts and everyone goes, "Yes! That's great." There's definitely a case for that type of openness and letting people have, you know, yes, sometimes a bit of stress, but the energy and provocation and so forth from each other. Do you see a best of both worlds possibility here?
SC: In terms of the best of both worlds, a workspace where it really is a combination between social spaces and then lots of private spaces that people can get access to as they need them, and you can move freely back and forth between those spaces throughout the day.
CA: Well, after your talk, we moved offices. We moved into these offices we're in now.
SC: Yeah, which I love, by the way.
CA: And your talk prompted a long conversation among the leadership team here about, you know, how on earth should we do this? And I mean, most of the teams are still organized on sort of -- like there's an open team area. People don't have individual offices. We realized, you know, we had to take you seriously, and we put in lots of little nooks where you can sort of, you know, hide away in a chair with a view of the outside and hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, cater for those moments when someone either needs to get away for a bit or just do quiet, concentrated work. You definitely cost us a fortune in extra space --
(Laughter)
CA: but I think it's probably money well-spent.
SC: Well, thank you for saying that with a big smile on your face.
(Laughter)
CA: What would you say to someone who said, "It's true that some people hate that sort of open space, but people also hate being paid what they're being paid," like, there's a lot of things that people would like in their work, and that it's actually good for people to feel a little bit of discomfort at work. That's how people open up and discover stuff that wouldn't otherwise have happened, and that actually, we should be saying to people, not just, "Come and work, and should you ever feel the tiniest twinge of discomfort, then go away and have your own office or go work at home. But rather, saying, 'You know what? Embrace the openness because of the possibility of serendipitous connection and what you can learn from other employees and the team-building and all the rest of it." Is there some level of discomfort that's actually appropriate?
SC: Oh, yeah. I mean, sure. I guess what I would say is, well, two things. One is just to look at the data of it. This isn't only about, "Well, let's just make employees as happy and comfortable at all times as possible." It's also about, "Well, how do you want people to be most focused and most productive?" I really do believe in the serendipity of people chatting with each other, so even in my ideal world, it would be designing office spaces where there's plenty of spaces for people to do that. I'm just saying, you know, protect the other side of human needs, as well. If you think of this in terms of stimulation, for all of us, whether we're introverts or extroverts, our craving for stimulation fluctuates throughout the day. And so, you want people, when they're at the moment where they need stimulation, you want them to have access to a nice, social space. And then the moment that they need to chill it out, you want them to have access to that phone booth, because that's how they're going to be most productive and happiest. I'm going to say also a bigger point beyond office spaces, which is: I think people often think that I'm saying, no one should ever be uncomfortable anytime, ever. And I'm actually a huge believer in people stepping outside their comfort zones and doing the stuff that's difficult. And in fact, you know, I would never have given a TED Talk if I didn't believe that. But I believe in doing that really strategically.
CA: Talk about that talk, because this is another riddle, really. I mean, here you are, you're an introverted person, you've got this book coming out, you're terrified of public speaking, and you know you've got this book tour coming and a TED invitation. How did you manage that?
SC: Yeah. OK, so I was flat-out terrified, and I'm now going to give you the secret to overcoming any fear. In this case, it happens to be the fear of public speaking. The answer is that you have to expose yourself to the thing that you fear, but you have to do it in really small doses. So, you can't start out by giving the TED Talk. And in my case, I went and signed up for this seminar on public speaking anxiety, and all you had to do in the seminar, the very first day you would show up, and you would just say your name and then sit back down and declare victory. And you were done! And that was it. And then you'd go back the next week and you'd do a little bit more, a little more and a little more. And it's the most amazing thing, how you can extinguish a fear that way. And so, the great irony is, I now have this crazy career as a public speaker, where I'm constantly going in and speaking to companies and organizations and schools, and if you had told me that even one week before giving the TED Talk, I would've thought that was a crazy prediction. And now, it's not a big deal. And I guess the part that I left out, it's not only about extinguishing fears but it's also, I care so much about what I'm saying and about sharing these ideas, that even at the moments where my butterflies come back, I'll always say to myself, you know, "I'm sure there's one person at least in this audience who will maybe be a better parent to their child, or they're going to be a better boss at work, and so I'm going to do it for that one person."
CA: I think that's almost the number one key to overcoming fear, is actually to have something really important to say. Like, if that pulls you through, I think that's a crucial part of it. So what I'm hearing is, don't obsess about, like, understand introversion and some of these associated things like shyness or spending time on the internal world of thoughts and ideas and so forth, be aware of it, but don't obsess about it, don't become a narcissist. The main thing to think about is still what the external goals are. Let that be your North Star.
SC: I mean, within balance. Let me flip it around. So, imagine you have somebody who's very extroverted who loves science, and that's what they really want to do in some capacity. I speak to extroverts sometimes who'll tell me, "Oh, my gosh. I work in this lab and everybody's really introverted and it's deathly quiet and nobody wants to talk, and I'm going crazy!" And so for that person, the answer is not to leave the field of science, right? It might actually be -- and without knowing more, we don't know -- but it might actually be that they would be better off in a different lab that has a slightly different culture. And so, they should be paying attention to those needs that they have and then making the adjustments within. Or if they really love that lab, OK, well, how do you make this work for your temperament? What could you be doing to build stimulation into your workday? So you still get to do the work you love, but you're honoring who you are.
CA: Talk a bit about schools and about parenting. What should schools do differently, and what should parents know?
SC: I think it starts with -- this is going to sound very woo-woo and loosey-goosey but it really matters -- it starts with really doing a deep think about how do you feel about your child's way of being. Because whatever you feel is communicating itself to your child. So if you've got, let's say, a four- or five-year-old who's having trouble, let's say, saying, "Hello, how are you?" to the neighbor, are you feeling, at that moment, embarrassed and ashamed? Or are you feeling like, "Oh, I get it. I get how Sophia's feeling, and she'll get there"? And the difference between those two attitudes is profound. If you're able to feel the latter way, then you can say to your child, "You know, I understand exactly how you feel. I get why you don't want to do that. I know it's hard. I know you can get there. I have every faith that you can. So, we're going to work on that little by little."
CA: Is it important to know whether your child is shy or introvert? Because it seems like those are two different things, and that the shy child, maybe the key is just to give them some skills for making that initial introduction, then they're going to be fine. But for the introvert, it's to give them permission to have a bit of social time but then come away.
SC: Yeah, that's right. CA: How can you tell the difference?
SC: Oh, I think, I mean, you can see it from such early ages. You can tell whether the motivation is anxiety. I mean, you can see the signs of fear on a face as you know the child. And then there will be some children where there is no fear and they're fine for 10 minutes but then go off and play by themselves. And to talk about it as if it's no big deal, so you're saying to them, "Well, yeah, you know, I know that you, let's say, feel uncomfortable on the playground having to manage lots of different social groups. Here's what I do when I'm feeling that way. Let's talk about some strategies that you can use when you're feeling that way."
CA: And at schools, you'd want teachers not to insist on the kind of hypersocial form of teaching of every child having to participate in some little group of four or six or 30 other kids. How do you frame that? What's the single biggest thing you'd love to see change at schools?
SC: Well, one of the great things that I am starting to see change at some schools is moving from a framework of grading and encouraging class participation, to classroom engagement. And it's a subtle difference, but it's also a profound one. It's recognizing that there are some children who will engage with material and with their classmates not by raising their hand again and again but by showing in quieter ways that they're paying attention. Maybe when the teacher divides the kids up into small groups, that's when they're really starting to participate and to share their ideas and elicit ideas from others. And we actually have a tool -- and all this stuff is free on QuietRev.com -- but we have a tool for teachers to use where they can... We call it a Quiet Engagement Rubric, and it's different ways of thinking about how a child can kind of show up in a classroom without the classic raising your hand over and over.
CA: So there's been all these changes already happening, I think, in work and school and elsewhere and in the culture. I just saw this article in "The Guardian" that was kind of interesting. It was called, "Why the 'introverts v extroverts' battle helps neither side." This is, in a way, a bit of pushback.
SC: Yeah. Yep. Sure.
CA: Actually, this article credits you -- or blames you, perhaps -- with the fact that the internet is now overwhelmed with memes that basically celebrate introverts. And I think the author's saying extroverts are starting to get a hard deal. And there's this line in here: "Introversion has been romanticized into an image of a thoughtful soul wandering through nature, book in hand, considering life's big picture. Extroversion, meanwhile, is a boorish individual at a loud party, demanding attention and holding forth in a conversation about a topic on which they are relatively ill-informed." And you, Susan Cain, are to blame for this.
(Laughter)
CA: Do you feel that extroverts are the bad guys here and that your whole revolution has been trying to put them down and raise the power of introversion? Or something else?
SC: Oh, God, no.
(Laughter)
SC: I so don't feel that, and I'm so aware of the danger that it could be and occasionally is seen that way. And I think it's what happens, really, with any movement. I often look to the women's movement as an analog for this. And you can see women as loving men but wanting everybody to be really equal, or you could say, "Oh, anyone who is against sexism must be a man-hater." I think it's a little bit like that. I'm married to an extrovert, and I enjoy extroverts' company, and there are situations where I really need it. You know, it completes me in a very intense and profound way.
CA: Talk about that a bit. I mean, you're married to an extrovert. How do you manage your social life?
SC: Oh, well, you know, it's funny, because that particular area is probably our easiest. But even there, we definitely have differences. My husband would love to be having guests over all the time. And I like it when we have guests, but I like to really space it out. I bear the responsibility of hosting really heavily. So, it's not something I can just do lightly, whereas he would love to have the house full of people a lot. And so, you know, we just kind of work it out and try to establish a balance. I have met couples where that's a real issue for them, and I often would say to them to try to kind of come up with a quota system in advance of how often are you going to invite guests over, how often are you going to go out -- kind of negotiate it one time, so that you don't have to do it over and over again.
CA: I'm also married to an amazing extrovert. She's incredible in social settings. Our solution for the social side is that there's a type of bring-the-guests-round that we both love, which is the kind of the single-topic dinner. Like, I'm terrible at small talk, but if you have a dinner where it's about one topic and you go around the table, people have a chance to say, I don't know, what's top of their mind, what they're fearful about in the world or hopeful about, or you're discussing some topic that everyone's interested in. I love that, I feel safe in that, I feel I can contribute. And Jacqueline, my wife, loves it as well. For me it's the negotiation if you're married. If it's an introvert-extrovert couple, the negotiation isn't just about how often to have a social event. It's probably about how many people come, and even more importantly, what is the format?
SC: Yes. Yeah, that's very true. That's so, so true. The data that I looked at shows that about half of couplings are a cross-type, but it feels to me, just walking around the world, like it's much more common than that. But anyway, I was going to say that one place that the difference shows up for us in a way that you might not think about, but I think really matters, is: How do you express enthusiasm? So, my husband has this amazing, really delightful way of expressing enthusiasm about whatever happens. My best example of it is when I first met him, it was right after I had left law and had just started writing. And at that time, it was before I was writing "Quiet." I was working on this memoir in sonnet form. And so I had just written a few poems and he was on the verge of publishing this best-selling memoir about his years as a UN peacekeeper, and I had just written a few poems. And we went out on this date, and afterwards I showed him the poems. So he sent me this email and it was in this gigantic font, like, 65-size font or something, all in red, and it said something like, "Holy shit! Drop everything! Write, woman, write!"
(Laughter)
SC: And I still have that framed in my office. And he's like that all the time about everything. And it's really amazing to be on the receiving end of it. And I always feel like I have to remember when there's something good that's happening on his side that I'm never going to match that because I express myself differently, but to try to show the enthusiasm in a way that will feel real to him.
CA: Right, will actually break through. He won't go, "Oh, clearly she doesn't think that matters that much."
SC: Yeah! Exactly. And that's an insight that you need to have not only one time, but it's like I have to have it every day, I have to remind myself about that. And I see that happening not only in marriages, but in workplaces, too. I'll often hear from people who will think that their introverted colleagues don't care about something that just happened, great for the team or something, and then you talk to that person and they actually care really deeply.
CA: Yeah. "No, no -- that was actually introvert speak for 'Awesome!'"
SC: Yeah. Yeah.
CA: Wow. Well, this has been quite a conversation. I'd love to end -- maybe, you know, say one parting thought for an introvert and one parting thought for an extrovert.
SC: For an introvert, I guess I would leave off where we began, which is that I hope you'll really embrace the permission to be your full self, and that the more you do, the more amazed you will be by all the different things you will go on to be and do. And for an extrovert, I would say, we love you -- we introverts, I mean -- and for all of us to know that there is this colossal waste, currently, of talent and energy and happiness that comes from not fully understanding and appreciating these differences, and it's really easy to fix, which is the good news. So I hope you will join us.
CA: Well, Susan, I feel very lucky to have got to sit down and talk for so long with a revolutionary. Thank you for what you've done. You've really changed how literally millions of people see themselves, and this has been an absolute delight.
SC: Well, thank you so much for having me on that stage and now here. It's so nice to be with you.
CA: Thank you, Susan. SC: Thank you.
(Music)
CA: Susan Cain is the author of "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking." She joined us on the TED stage in 2012, and you can listen to that talk on ted.com. For educators or parents who want to learn more about Susan’s approach to introversion, she recommends visiting QuietRev.com for resources. That's "quiet R E V dot com." Susan’s currently working on a new book that seeks to answer questions about our connections to the sorrows of the world and our sense of longing.
If you know an introvert or an extrovert who you think might be interested in some of Susan’s ideas, why not share this episode with them? If you like the show, please rate us on iTunes. We love to hear your thoughts.
This week’s show was produced by Megan Tan. Our production manager is Roxanne Hai Lash, our mix engineer, David Herman. Our theme music is by Allison Layton-Brown. Special thanks to my colleague Michelle Quint. I’m Chris Anderson. Thanks so much for listening. On the next episode, MIT research scientist Andrew McAfee and the scary but exciting future of our work lives, driven by the coming artificial intelligence revolution.
(Recording) Andrew McAfee: I kind of believe that in the rest of my lifetime, I am going to live to see peak jobs or peak labor.
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