Hey, Mark Leifer's, it's Adam. Season four is launching this spring. In the meantime, some exciting news. Each season we've done a couple of bonus episodes where I have a discussion or a debate with a thought leader. You asked for more of those. So we've delivered. This is a new series we're calling taken for granted. Get it? The gist, more unscripted conversations with fascinating people about rethinking things we've taken for granted. This is taken for granted by podcast with the TED Radio Collective, I'm an organizational psychologist. My job is to think again about how we work, lead and live. I'm delighted that we're starting this series with someone who never fails to challenge how I think about the world. Renee Brown is a social work. Professor Bernie has spent two decades studying vulnerability, empathy and shame. She's the host of two new podcasts, Unlocking US and Dare to Lead. Her TED talk is one of the most watched ever with more than 50 million views, one of the big reasons it was such a sensation is that she models what vulnerability looks like. I'm going in. I'm going to figure this stuff out. I'm going to spend a year. I'm going to understand how vulnerability works and I'm going to outsmart it. As you know, it's not going to turn out well. I've long been fascinated with the power of vulnerability and impressed with the power of Bernier's insights. I'm excited to learn from her about the nuances of vulnerability at work, especially in places where it seems risky. I will say from one interview to another, I cannot stand small talk. I love conversations that go deep right away, and you are the queen of going deep and being vulnerable. So I feel like I feel like I have extra permission to do that here. I'm the queen of vulnerability and I'm the assistant queen of, like, boundaries. So we'll see. Let's go. Let's go as deep as we can go and then we'll see. So I guess I guess the place I want to start today is to say that you have convinced millions and millions of people that vulnerability is not a sign of weakness. It can actually be a source of strength and of connection. And yet so many people struggle to be vulnerable at work and they decide to put on armor instead. And I wonder, just for starters, if you could talk a little bit about why people feel special pressure to put armor on at work and what kinds of armor they wear. Yeah, so I hope that the work does and I hope what I do is help people dispel the mythology about a vulnerability. I think that's such an important place to start that there's this idea that vulnerability is weakness. I think most of us were raised with that that kind of ethos like self protect. Be careful. Don't put yourself out there. I mean, vulnerability is very simply defined as uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure. It's the affect or emotion we feel in times of great uncertainty, risk. And when an emotional exposure just means I put myself out there. And so the first thing we have to do is dispel that notion. We are raised to believe it's important to be brave, but then we're taught not to be vulnerable . And they're really. In my you know, based on my research and our data, there just is no courage without vulnerability. I tell the story of asking a group of soldiers a very simple question. Give me an example of courage in your life or an example of courage that you've observed in someone else that did not require uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure. And I think I was at Fort Bragg and there was just absolute silence until one guy stood up and said, three tours, ma'am, there is no courage without vulnerability. Then a week later, I'm doing work with Pete Carroll and the Seattle Seahawks. We're talking about vulnerability. I asked the same question to that group of players. Give me an example of courage on the field or off that doesn't require vulnerability. And it was so funny to me because they they had to huddle for a minute and then they kind of came back and said, there is no courage without vulnerability, not on or off the field. If you're not all in if you're not putting yourself out there, you just can't be brave. And so I think the job is dispelling the mythology about vulnerability is weakness at work. I think we armourer more because there's less trust, there's less confidence. And I think we slip into kind of who we think we're supposed to be at work. And we armer up using things like cynicism , perfectionism, needing to be the knower and be right versus the learner and get it right. There are a lot of forms of armor that can sometimes be rewarded at work. I think that's so true. I love your observation that that people will use expertise or performance as armor at work. And it it really struck a chord with me on a very deep level because I don't want to I don't want to get to psychoanalytic here. But I you know, I had this this defining experience, I guess, in many ways when I was 12, where all of my close friends dropped me because I wasn't cool enough for them. And I never really realized until until you started talking about performance armor that my way of coping with with that experience was to try to be exceptionally good at whatever I did, because then people would respect me or look up to me here like me. And so first it was in sports saying, OK, if I can excel in diving, you know, then I'll have I'll have earned, you know, a badge or some admiration and and maybe I'll be accepted as opposed to rejected. And then I got to college and started to redefine my identity around excellence in school, which which was something that then got reinforced. And then over time it felt like every single project I took on was was one where I knew I could excel. And that way I was just fortifying my armor more and more. And I started to feel like this is a mistake and I'm missing out on opportunities for learning and for challenging myself and stretching myself. And so I just I'd love to get your reactions on on this idea of for those of us who are so accustomed to to treating excellence or expertises as our armor, how do we let go of that? Well, first of all, I have to say that your story of when you are 12 is real trauma. I mean, that's really that that's trauma. And yes, there are different kinds of trauma and different sizes of the bucket. But when you're 12, it's all about belonging. And I think I have the same story. I was I was 13, not 12, but I have a very similar story. But I just got really good at, like smoking cigarettes and being wild, which was probably not the best thing to pick. But but we all have stories like that and we build our armor around those stories. And no one talks about the big developmental milestone of midlife, which can happen, I think, anywhere between our late 30s and probably mid 50s, which is the armor that we put on to protect us when we were children and have less agency and less control over what was happening. That armor no longer serves us and it is heavy. And what it actually does is prevent us from being seen and prevent us from growing into areas because that armor doesn't grow with us. It stays kind of the same size, I think. And so I you know, for me, I kind of switched armor, you know, when I moved from being kind of the loud party girl to, OK, this is scary, but I'm going to try to be the smart kid. And that worked. And I was rewarded for it. Then I went I moved solidly into a life of. Proving, performing, perfecting until I actually physically and emotionally couldn't do it anymore, and so I think, again, the big challenge of midlife is the armor that we're carrying, their armor that we're, you know, that's got us locked in and the weapons that were carrying that kept us safe at some point. What is OK to let go of because it's no longer serving and then how do we peel it off, which is the scary part. You know, I do think that as I peeled mine off and that was work I did with a therapist, and now I'm constantly trying new things that I don't know whether I'm going to be good at or not. And I am failing, you know, on occasion, you know, but feels but now that I've changed the goal to stretching and learning instead of proving and perfecting. It feels so different. Does that make sense? It does it it resonates. And I've I guess I've I've gone through a similar shift in saying, look, I want to be the kind of person who takes on projects that matter. Yes. And where I have the potential to contribute something meaningful. And even if I fail, at least I didn't fail to try. That's right. Yes. And I have let me tell you, I have I have taken on a couple of things in the last several years where I have just failed. But I don't regret it. I don't regret it. It's such a great place to be and part of I guess part of what I've been wondering is, as I've been applying applying your work to my own life and also talking in class about it quite a bit. So just just as a little bit of back story, every year, I have students at the undergrad level apply to my class. And one of the questions is, what's your favorite TED talk? Yours is every year. One of the topics I think one of the things that jumped out at me after the first few years was it was mostly women who were naming you as their favorite talk. And and I'm wondering, I'm sure some of this, of course, is, you know, men tend to choose male role models. Women tend to choose female. But it also seems like vulnerability is easier for women to process and maybe adopt. And it's something men struggle a lot more with. And I wondered if you could talk about what you found in your research there and a little bit of the psychology of why men struggle so much with vulnerability. I have moved from talking about men and women just to talking about folks who are, you know, trying to meet masculine norms and folks trying to meet feminine norms just to be more inclusive. But here's the thing. In terms of masculine norms, the biggest shame trigger is do not be perceived as weak. So just think about that calculus for a second. I'm asking people to be vulnerable. Ninety nine percent of them are raised to believe that vulnerability is weakness, and they know in their heart that they'll experience shame if they're perceived as weak. And that's so it becomes a very big ask for. People who really value complying with masculine norms in terms of women and feminine norms, the number one shame trigger is. Perfection do not be perceived as imperfect, do it all, do it. Well, never let them see you sweat. So now I'm saying, hey, I want you to be vulnerable about your setbacks and your failures and where you're struggling and your emotions. So really the biggest barrier to vulnerability. Is shame the fear of shame? The fear that I'm going to put myself out there and I'm going to find myself experiencing, you know, the definition we use it for, shame is the incredibly painful experience of believing or feeling that we are unworthy, that we're flawed and unworthy of love and belonging and connection. And so you can see how vulnerability is a really big ask. It's a really big ask you. It's so interesting. Your analysis reminds me of the Boston and Vandeleur work on precarious manhood, which it basically says, look, you know, the problem with most definitions of masculinity or masculine cultures is we have to demonstrate it over and over and over again. And so no matter how many times you've proven your strength, if you show just one tiny bit of weakness, then all of a sudden you're no longer a man or you're no longer strong. I don't know. Have you been reading any of that work? Well, I. I found it by asking some folks on my research team what is an alternative to toxic masculinity. Interesting as a phrase, because I'm not sure that phrase is helpful. I am so with you. I hate the phrase. It's it's always bothered me just at a basic level, because it seems to imply that masculinity is inherently toxic as opposed to what you said, which is there's a there's a brand or a flavor of masculinity that can be toxic. And I guess I came to wondering, is that part of the reason why why you see so many men motivated to armor up at work because they have to keep proving their strength over and over again? This is super interesting. And this is I'm like, this is me thinking out loud with you just spit balling right now. Why is vulnerability? So much. More difficult to talk about with men in suits. In organizations or hoodies and jeans, because I work in Silicon Valley a lot, right. Why is it more difficult to talk about with them than it is with. Trauma surgeons and firefighters and military and professional athletes, and I guess this hypothesis that's forming in my head right now, which, you know, who knows if it's right or not, would be. Where masculinity is, you know, where where that kind of strength is seen every day on the pitch or on the football field or in their jobs, they're not having to prove it so often because it's part of what they do. Wow. But they're more open to those conversations. Do you know what I'm saying? That is so fascinating. Right. So if I'm if I'm a firefighter, everybody knows I'm a badass. So if you if I if I break down outside of a burning building into tears, I've I've I've established already that I'm tough and I can I can handle extreme crises and difficult situations, whereas if I'm a software engineer in Silicon Valley or I'm a trader on Wall Street, I haven't been able to demonstrate my strength in the same way as that is. Is that what you're getting at? Yeah, I mean, it's what I'm getting at because, I mean, it's totally what I get. I'm getting that because I'm thinking to this moment where I'm on an Air Force base, talking to a general, doing a lot of work with and these are like serious, serious ass people like these are fighter pilot kind of folks. Right. And before we got started, he and I are talking about the work. And I said, you know, one of the things that's going to be really interesting is I want to talk about care and connection are irreducible needs when we lead, meaning we have to care for and be connected to the people we lead are we can't do it effectively. And up until that point, I had had so much pushback from people like, that's bullshit. I'm not here to like you. I'm here to lead you. And this general turned toward me and said from the highest ranks of the Air Force, we believe you cannot lead people that you do not feel affection toward. Which I think takes care in connection a little another step affections, a bigger word right in my book and I said, Huh? And he goes, Yeah, that's that's just common. If you cannot find a way to feel affection for people you lead, then we need to move them out of your direct report line. You know, as you as you walk through some of these stories and examples, what seems to set apart the contexts where even tough, masculine leaders appreciate the importance of vulnerability and affection, is there doing work with with heavy emotional demands? Yes, whereas I. I mean, I can I'm sure you know, and I also know some some very successful people in knowledge work who have managed to pull off a, you know, a pretty extraordinary career without ever really having to to take off the mask and show what they're really feeling. And so is is there something also built into their work in addition to the fact that you get to prove your strength, that you can't you can't hide from the emotions altogether? Yeah, I think the thing that I would ask I would ask the great contributions that they made without taking off the mask, how much greater could they have been? What changes could they have made had they had that combination of intellect plus humanity and, you know, reading think again was a catalyst for me, re-examining my. Bad assumption that we're all hungry for brave leadership. Thank you, Renee. I'm honored that you read my book, Think Again, let alone that it struck a chord. It kind of grabbed me by the shoulders and gave him gave me a little shake, like a big shake, actually. I don't think we can make the mistake of assuming that everyone wants brave leadership. Yes, because brave leadership puts demands on people to also be courageous, to also be self-aware, to also put more importance on getting things right than being right. I don't think brave leadership for the leader or for the people who are being led is for the faint of heart. So I'm not so sure that everyone wants courageous leadership. And that's. That's a tough thing, don't you think? Yeah, I agree. I think the first thing that comes to mind is I read some research earlier this week showing that when leaders have employees who are courageous and daring, that sometimes they feel like that gives them a pass and they say, OK, you know, my people have got this. And so I don't have to demonstrate the same integrity, which, of course, is the exact opposite of what you would want to see. And it goes to something I've been wondering about that your work has really pushed me to think a lot about, which is, you know, if if if I'm going to play who who believes in the value of courage and vulnerability. But I have a boss or a leader who doesn't get it. Well, how do I manage up? I mean, obviously, in an ideal world, I would just leave. But if I don't have that option, is there anything I can do to nudge a leader to take off the armor, to not be so ashamed to to be a little bit more real? So one thing is I never tell people to leave because I mean, leave if you can. But I just you know, I think you and I are both careful about that in our in our work. Right. Because the reality is you may have a sick kid and this is your insurance, you know, like or this is how you know, definitely when I tell people to leave in this job market right now. So we try to give people real tools. No, you can't manage by teaching your boss this work and asking her to take off the armor. I mean, it just doesn't work like that. What I would say is, let's say you're my boss and you're you're a pretty armored. You're not your you don't do vulnerability. And we just had a big disappointment setback in our team. And, you know, your style is to just move forward. And so what I might say, instead of saying, you know, look, I think we need to be vulnerable and take the armor off and, you know, really embrace this failure that's going to get you fired or in trouble. So what I would say to this person and depending on how they are, is I would say, hey, Adam. I have a question for you. Do you think it could be helpful for us to dig in around what happened as a group? What I'm seeing, as I think people are making up different stories about how we ended up in this setback, and I wonder if it'd be helpful if we sat down and just talked through it so we could get on the same page and figure out just as a group what went wrong so we could embed that in our team and not repeat it. So I would just practice the work. Not try to influence people to do the work. Does that make sense? It does. It does. And to me, what's so clever about that approach is it takes the leader out of the spotlight a little bit. Right. So I'm not attacking or criticizing my boss. I'm actually saying, hey, you know what a lot of people are? I love your phrase. You know, the story I'm making up is and here you're saying a lot of people are making up different stories. And so, you know, maybe we need to actually get the either set the record straight or learn from something from this experience. And so you're almost inviting the leader to be a problem solver as opposed to. Yes. Calling them the problem. That's right. And so it is. We have this list of kind of we you know, we call hard conversations, rumbles. And in fact, I have one schedule today and it literally says in my calendar, ad sales rumball four o'clock. And so what I know what that means in our organization, our culture is we're expecting a lot of different opinions. We're expecting a lot of competing priorities. Bring up a point of view, bring a lot of curiosity, be prepared to listen more than you talk and be prepared from for some discomfort, because we're going to stay in this until we understand each other better. And so it's just an attention set up for us. We're going to rumble. And so we have these rumble starters and language that we give people who go through our training where. If I again, if I'm talking to you and we have different takes on, you know, the perks of vulnerability, I'm just practicing my work with you. So I'm saying, you know, I hear you, Adam. That's not my experience of how OP showed up in that meeting. Can you walk me through what you saw that that is leading you to this belief? There's just language tools that we can use. Yeah, and, you know, I have to ask, because this term rumbles from is is such a great reframe of these hard conversations that many of us avoid. And there's a part of me that thinks, OK, you're you're activating a new mindset. It's we're going into WWE. Let's get ready to rumble. And I can't wait this this could be fun, but there's a part of me that also thinks, oh, do you do you actually do you ruminate even more going into them thinking, oh, God, I've got to rumble. This is going to be horrible. Does the framing help or hurt? It depends. I think it depends on the culture. Right. And it's funny. And this is the age difference maybe because I've got I think I've probably got a decade on you. And so when I think of rumble, I think of West Side Story, I think musicals, you know. And so to me, that's where it came from. It came from this idea of a rumble in West Side Story was part part argument, part dance, because, you know, as a musical. So in our culture, where my number one job is that as the kind of CEO of this organization that I lead is to normalize discomfort, we onboard for discomfort. We teach you how to fail and get back up when you are brand new and weak one like we normalize discomfort because I just can't have people working for me who are only doing what they're already good at doing. I just that's not that's not effective. Like, that's not innovative. So for me, it just means like, I will definitely have people who are two levels, you know, apart from me, who, you know, their bosses boss report to me and they will say to me, hey, Brian, can I rumble with you on the social media strategy? I am not I'm not down with it yet. I don't get it. And Michael Rumble what's what's what do you think? And as you and I both know, one way to really measure embedded change in in cultures, which is a hard thing to do. Right, is language like language is a big indicator. And so I think you can't just start using the word rumble if it's not paired with a deeper culture change. I think that makes a lot of sense, and it it leaves me wondering a little bit if if actually wondering a lot. I'm just going to wonder, no matter how much I'm wondering about it, I I love measuring culture change by looking at the vocabulary people use. I guess I guess maybe this is a little bit of a chicken in the egg. But is it possible that the vocabulary you're introducing is is creating the change, not just reflecting it? Yeah, I think language is praksis. It is. It is the theory of change. It is the practice of change all wrapped up into one thing. And you know, the greatest compliment that I get, people would come up after a talk and say, I already knew everything you said. I had no words for it and I thought it was just me. And so that's that's the goal of the work to give people language, language is power. And and here's the myth . Here's what I tell people. We think. That giving language to hard emotions like shame, our grief are our hard experiences, gives those experiences or those emotions power, but giving language to hard things gives us power. Yeah, that's you know, that's so true when when we can name an emotion, it at least allows us to analyze it or to reflect on it and to control it a little bit, because we realize we have choices about what we call it. And when I do something wrong, as you pointed out so many times, I have a choice about whether I'm going to interpret what I'm feeling as shame. I'm a bad person or guilt. I did a bad thing. That's right, you wanna hear something crazy? Yes, yes, yeah, let me tell you something crazy. So we have communities of facilitators and when we look at evaluation's from that that kind of deeply therapeutic work where people will spend a facilitator will spend 12 weeks taking people through, you know, daring, greatly rising, strong curriculum in the end. And the evaluation, what we see over and over again, understanding the difference between shame and guilt was the most important part of this work. Just understanding that there's a difference between shame I am bad and guilt, I did something bad and that how we talk to ourselves or how we use shame or guilt to parent or lead has profoundly different outcomes. Right. Just understanding that I can look at my child and say, you know what? You're a wonderful kid. That was a really stupid choice and how different that is from your stupid kid. Yeah. Which changes who people are, you know. Welcome back to Taken for Granted and my conversation about vulnerability with Bernie Brown, one of the fears that a lot of people carry around is people are worried that if they're vulnerable at the wrong time or with the wrong person, especially if they're in a more performance oriented culture at work, that they might not be seen as competent. I'd love to hear your latest thinking on, especially in a virtual world. How do I figure out what appropriate vulnerability is and how do I know whether it's safe to be vulnerable? So I would say you don't you'll never succeed in a performative culture if you don't have some of the things that really are vulnerable, like curiosity. If you pretend like you know everything in a performative culture and you're not a learner, that house of cards is going to collapse at some point. So what I think people are asking is how much is too much to share about my feelings? And that always leads me to this very simple sentence, vulnerability minus boundaries is not vulnerability. Are you sharing your your emotions, your experiences to move? Work connection, our relationship forward, or are you working your shit out with somebody and work is not a place to do that. So I'll give you an example that I think is. You know, in fact, what I tell the story, I tell the story a lot when I'm talking, but I think about you sometimes, Adam, when I tell the story, because of things that I have read that you've written. No, no, it's good, I think. But it's this is a nuanced life is nuance. Right. And so I was working with a group of newly funded CEOs from Silicon Valley. And after my talk, one of them came up to me and said, I'm going to be vulnerable. I'm going to tell my investors, I'm going to tell my employees, look, we're in over our head. I don't know what I'm doing. And we're bleeding money. Right, and he said, I'm just going to be vulnerable. And I said. You must have stepped out to go to the bathroom and get a coffee during the part where I said vulnerability minus boundaries is not vulnerability. We always have to interrogate our intention around sharing and we have to question who we're sharing with and is that the right thing? And he's saying, so what do you think is going to happen? You don't think I should do it? I said, I think you'll never get funding again. And I think you will unfairly put the people who've probably left great jobs to follow you over here into a terrible position of fear. And he said, so I don't understand. And I said, if you are literally in over your head, you don't know what to do next and you're bleeding money. You should absolutely share that with someone, but the question is, who is the appropriate person to tell? I so appreciate the nuance that you bring to this idea of vulnerability, to say, look, you know, just just because vulnerability helps to build trust doesn't mean you should share everything in all situations with other people now. And I think that's such a common misconception about the idea. I guess it comes up a lot in discussions about authenticity to you that people think that that, you know, OK, I'm trying to be authentic and that means I don't need to have a filter or, you know, I can defend my actions by saying I was just being myself like, well, you were just being a jerk. That's that's not OK. Yes, that that's exactly right. Look, I know some of the most vulnerable and authentic leaders I have ever had the pleasure of working with. Truly authentic, truly vulnerable, personally disclose very little. And some of the leaders that I work with disclose everything are the least authentic and vulnerable people I've been around. OK, so this is totally fascinating. Are you saying that I don't I can. No, no. I actually love this because I have been criticized on this before. And I think you just you just gave me a new way of thinking about this, which is you're saying I can be vulnerable without disclosing a ton about my emotions or my life. Yes. How I guess. I think this is what I've been trying to do. I'll just give you the back the background in case it's helpful. I have feedback from a bunch of people I work with that when, you know, when there's something difficult going on in my life, I don't care much about it. And my fear has been that when, you know, when people know that there's something difficult going on in my life and then I don't open up about it, they're going to think that I'm you know, I'm not being honest or authentic with them or I'm lacking vulnerability. And you're saying there are ways that I can maintain my, I guess, my degree of privacy that I made up for naturally and still be vulnerable. So I'm excited about this. Tell me more. This is what vulnerability can look like. Hey, I'm I'm really struggling right now. I've got some stuff going on with my mom and it's hard. And I want a job to know. And I want you to know what support looks like for me is I'll check in with you if I need something from you. And I may take some time off, but I want to know for me, support looks like being able to share this with you and being able to bring it up with you when it's helpful for me, but not having to field a lot of questions for it. So I appreciate being able to tell you. I appreciate that we all will need different things when we have hard things going on in our lives. This is what I need right now that is incredibly empowering because what so let me tell you what people are actually worried about, Adam, when you've got someone who compartmentalizes in segments and when they know something really difficult is going on, they've got they've got a parent in chemotherapy or they've got, you know, like some something's really hard going on. They're concerned about you for sure. But what they're also concerned about is Bernie does not give me permission to be human. I am not safe here. Unless I to compartmentalize and bring do not bring my whole self here and what you're doing when you say what I just said, which is I understand we all have different things and different needs, and I love being a part of team A team that can respect that. I do trust you and want you to know that these hard things are going on. And for me, support looks like this right now. That's awesome. Does that make sense? It does, it's a different interpretation than I had made, which is, you know, when when I'm the first or second time, I was like, oh, OK. You know, this is somebody who who wants, you know, who just expects me to open up more that idea. And we have different preferences. That's OK. And as it happened a few more times, I felt like, OK, maybe what's going on is people are worried that they're not as close to me as they thought they were, because if they were, I would have shared this. And you're saying, yes, maybe that, but also that they're worried that if they want to share something with me, that I'm not going to be receptive to it because I don't do it and return. If you're my boss and you're the person that really is very private and doesn't like to disclose and and I know something's going on. It creates eggshells for me. Because you're not being explicit about what you want or don't want, it's just off limits. Yes, and if you said that to me, I'd say, man Adam. I really appreciate you normalizing that we have lives outside of work, and I really appreciate you normalizing that. We all need different things when we're in a hard time. And what I really appreciate is you asking us, you trusting us enough to share that you're having a hard time and ask for what you need, which is not to talk about it unless you bring it up. That safety, that psychological safety. It's such a powerful conversation that I clearly need to have with a bunch of people having to add to my list now, but it also it also makes me think that this it might be helpful to clarify to people what closeness means to me. Yes. You know, when I think about closeness, it's less about disclosing, you know, my deepest emotions or what's going on in my personal life. It's more about, number one, if I made time for you, if that means you matter to me first off. Yes. And number two, and maybe more importantly, I do not I do not see a connection between the frequency of communication and the depth of a friendship or collaboration. And I feel like the people I'm closest to, I sometimes go a year or more without talking to them and we can just pick right up where we left off. And I know that if I ever needed them, they would be there for me and vice versa. And I don't think I've actually let anyone know that, God, it's huge. It's so important. And that that you know what that is? That's authenticity. That's authenticity because let me tell you something, you sitting down with this, folks are concerned because you're not sharing enough and and pushing yourself to share with them is actually not authenticity that's assessing and acclimating to what you think people need. It's not being you. That's why this sentence, what you know, what a support look like for me, what a support look like for you, and that we can build a team, that we can have different needs because we see each other and respect each other. That's authenticity. It's nothing more. Nothing less. So if I can quote you to you, I think I know well, I mean, I'm going to do it. You know, you said something really profound about this. You've said that I think tell me if I'm if I misapplying it here. But I think that another way of saying what you just said in your words is that if I were basically just sharing because people expected me to share, then I'm fitting in as opposed to belonging. That's right. That's right. That's right. And and there is room for all of us, like I have pushed and pushed and pushed people to be more like at my level of sharing, which is kind of somewhere in the middle, like I have my own personal line I'll share with vulnerable, but I never share with sentiment. I'm really clear on all that. I don't my kids are not in my posts. I'm not you know, I just I'm a public person. But that doesn't mean that I forfeited everything in my life. And so what true belonging is, if you've got a team of seven people. That have seven different ways of showing up and different levels of comfort with sharing and that all of them feel like they have a space there, because what's not honored is a way of being was honored is actually authenticity. You know, and that's what we're looking for, but let me tell you, that's a shit ton of work and it's more work than saying authenticity is crying, three point five, which I have really had leaders come up to me and literally say, how many times do I have to cry in front of them to, like, really be considered vulnerable? And I said, yeah, like, you don't get it. There's no hack here. There's no hard wiring here. It's about understanding and seeing. People love that. Well, thank you. I've learned so much from your work. It's been you know, it's been eye opening. It's been at various points uplifting and also a little bit arresting in the best ways. And it's been just a real treat and delight to have you on work life. God, thank you so much. I have to say, this is just one of my favorite conversations ever. So thank you for inviting me. If you're still hungry for more from Bernie and me, we just had another conversation for her podcast, Dare to Lead. It's on Spotify, Renee, with Adam Grant on the power of knowing what you don't know. Taken for granted is a member of the TED Audio Collective. The show is hosted by me, Adam Grant, and produced by TED with Transmitter Media. Our team includes Colin Helmes Credico and Dan O'Donnell, Joanne DeLuna, Grace Rubenstein, Michelle Quint and Ben Chang. And Add a few in this episode was produced by Constanza Gado and Jessica Glaser. Our show is mixed by Rick Original Music by Hartsdale Sue and Alison Layton Brown.
