Cyndi Stivers: El futur de la narració. Abans de fer el futur, parlem del que no canviarà mai a la narració.
Cyndi Stivers: So, future of storytelling. Before we do the future, let's talk about what is never going to change about storytelling.
Shonda Rhimes: El que no canviarà mai. Òbviament, crec que una bona història no canviarà mai, la necessitat de les persones de reunir-se i intercanviar històries i parlar sobre les coses que consideren universals, la idea de la necessitat que tots sentim de mirar històries, de contar-les, de compartir-les com una mena de reunió al voltant del foc per debatre les coses que ens diuen que no estem sols al món. Per a mi, aquestes coses no canviaran mai. Aquesta essència de la narració no canviarà mai.
Shonda Rhimes: What's never going to change. Obviously, I think good stories are never going to change, the need for people to gather together and exchange their stories and to talk about the things that feel universal, the idea that we all feel a compelling need to watch stories, to tell stories, to share stories -- sort of the gathering around the campfire to discuss the things that tell each one of us that we are not alone in the world. Those things to me are never going to change. That essence of storytelling is never going to change.
CS: Per preparar aquesta conversa, he parlat amb la Susan Lyne, qui estava al càrrec d'ABC Entertainment quan tu treballaves a "Anatomía de Grey"...
CS: OK. In preparation for this conversation, I checked in with Susan Lyne, who was running ABC Entertainment when you were working on "Grey's Anatomy" --
SR: Sí.
SR: Yes.
CS: I em va dir que tenia un record inesborrable del teu càsting, quan sense haver-ho tractat amb cap dels executius, rebies gent per llegir els teus guions, i cada persona era diferent a l'anterior, i no les classificaves de cap manera, i això era totalment sorprenent. Així, a més d'educar els executius de l'estudi, va dir que tu també, segons ella, i crec que es així, vas transformar les expectatives de la tele-audiència americana. Què més hi ha que l'audiència encara no s'ha adonat que necessita?
CS: And she said that there was this indelible memory she had of your casting process, where without discussing it with any of the executives, you got people coming in to read for your scripts, and every one of them was the full range of humanity, you did not type anyone in any way, and that it was completely surprising. So she said, in addition to retraining the studio executives, you also, she feels, and I think this is -- I agree, retrained the expectations of the American TV audience. So what else does the audience not yet realize that it needs?
SR: Què és el que encara no veu? Vull dir, no crec que estiguem en aquesta fase encara. Vull dir, encara estem en un lloc distant, llunyà del que sembla el món real. Jo no portava un grup d'actors ben diferents els uns dels altres només per destacar res concret i no intentava fer res d'especial. Mai vaig pensar que allò era nou, diferent o estrany. Només portava actors perquè em semblaven interessants i crec que aquesta idea sorprenia a tothom - Al principi no ho sabia. Només pensava: aquests són els actors que vull en aquestes escenes. Vull veure com són quan llegeixen. Veurem què passa. Trobo interessant que quan mires el món d'una altra manera quan no ets la persona que acostuma a ser al càrrec de les coses, les coses acaben sent diferents.
SR: What else does it not yet realize? Well, I mean, I don't think we're anywhere near there yet. I mean, we're still in a place in which we're far, far behind what looks like the real world in actuality. I wasn't bringing in a bunch of actors who looked very different from one another simply because I was trying to make a point, and I wasn't trying to do anything special. It never occurred to me that that was new, different or weird. I just brought in actors because I thought they were interesting and to me, the idea that it was completely surprising to everybody -- I didn't know that for a while. I just thought: these are the actors I want to see play these parts. I want to see what they look like if they read. We'll see what happens. So I think the interesting thing that happens is that when you look at the world through another lens, when you're not the person normally in charge of things, it just comes out a different way.
CS: Ara tens aquesta gran empresa que dirigeixes, com un tità - com sabeu, de l'any passat quan donà la xerrada - ella és un tità. Què penses que passarà mirant endavant? Hi ha grans quantitats de diners invertits en la producció dels programes. Mentre que les eines per crear històries s'han popularitzat bastant, hi continua havent aquesta gran distribució: les persones que lloguen les xarxes, que lloguen l'audiència als patrocinadors i fan que tot rendeixi. Com canvia el model de negoci ara que qualsevol pot ser narrador?
CS: So you now have this big machine that you run, as a titan -- as you know, last year when she gave her talk -- she's a titan. So what do you think is going to happen as we go on? There's a huge amount of money involved in producing these shows. While the tools of making stories have gone and gotten greatly democratized, there's still this large distribution: people who rent networks, who rent the audience to advertisers and make it all pay. How do you see the business model changing now that anyone can be a storyteller?
SR: Crec que això canvia cada dia. És a dir, el ràpid canvi que està tenint lloc és impressionant I sento que el pànic és palpable, però no en el mal sentit. Penso que això és excitant. La idea de que es produeix una mena d'equalització, que ve a dir que tothom pot crear alguna cosa, és meravellós. Crec que hi ha quelcom alarmant en la idea que ara no es pot trobar la bona feina. Hi ha tanta cosa... Crec que actualment hi ha al voltant de 417 drames a la televisió a qualsevol hora i a qualsevol lloc, però no els pots trobar. No pots trobar els bons. Per això, hi ha molt material dolent ja que tothom pot crear alguna cosa. És com si tothom pintés un quadre. No hi ha tants pintors bons. Però trobar bones històries i bons programes és cada cop més i més difícil. Ja que si tens un petit programa a l'AMC i un altre petit programa aquí i allà, trobar on són esdevé molt més complicat. Crec que descobrir les autèntiques joies i trobar qui féu el gran episodi online i qui féu això és -- pensa en els pobres crítics que dediquen les 24 hores diàries, atrapats a casa seva, mirant-ho tot. No és una feina fàcil ara mateix. Els motors de distribució es tornen cada cop més immensos, però trobar una programació adient per a tots els espectadors és cada cop més difícil. I, a diferència de les notícies, on tot es redueix a qui ets tu, sembla que la televisió, i quan dic televisió em refereixo a allò que pots veure com els tele-programes, s'estigui ampliant cada cop més. Tothom està creant històries, i els genis sovint estan amagats. Però són cada cop més difícils de trobar, i arribarà un punt que s'ensorrarà. Es parla del punt àlgid de la TV. No sé quan hi arribarem. Penso que en algun moment es començarà a ensorrar i d'alguna manera ho refarem. Potser no seran les cadenes de televisió. No sé si és un model sostenible.
SR: I think it's changing every day. I mean, the rapid, rapid change that's happening is amazing. And I feel -- the panic is palpable, and I don't mean that in a bad way. I think it's kind of exciting. The idea that there's sort of an equalizer happening, that sort of means that anybody can make something, is wonderful. I think there's some scary in the idea that you can't find the good work now. There's so much work out there. I think there's something like 417 dramas on television right now at any given time in any given place, but you can't find them. You can't find the good ones. So there's a lot of bad stuff out there because everybody can make something. It's like if everybody painted a painting. You know, there's not that many good painters. But finding the good stories, the good shows, is harder and harder and harder. Because if you have one tiny show over here on AMC and one tiny show over here over there, finding where they are becomes much harder. So I think that ferreting out the gems and finding out who made the great webisode and who made this, it's -- I mean, think about the poor critics who now are spending 24 hours a day trapped in their homes watching everything. It's not an easy job right now. So the distribution engines are getting more and more vast, but finding the good programming for everybody in the audience is getting harder. And unlike the news, where everything's getting winnowed down to just who you are, television seems to be getting -- and by television I mean anything you can watch, television shows on -- seems to be getting wider and wider and wider. And so anybody's making stories, and the geniuses are sometimes hidden. But it's going to be harder to find, and at some point that will collapse. People keep talking about peak TV. I don't know when that's going to happen. I think at some point it'll collapse a little bit and we'll, sort of, come back together. I don't know if it will be network television. I don't know if that model is sustainable.
CS: Què en penses sobre el model en què Amazon i Netflix estan invertint molts diners actualment?
CS: What about the model that Amazon and Netflix are throwing a lot of money around right now.
SR: És veritat. Crec que és un model interessant. Crec que té un punt excitant. Per als creadors de contingut, crec que hi ha quelcom fascinant. Per al món, crec que també té un punt excitant. El fet de que ara hi ha programes que poden ser en diverses llengües amb personatges d'arreu del món que són atractius i que representen a tothom alhora és fascinant. Crec que el sentit internacional que la televisió pot adquirir ara té sentit per a mi, que la programació pot prendre ara. En gran part la televisió està feta per l'audiència americana. Fem aquests programes, i després es venen per tot el món sense pensar-hi massa, a diferència de pensar que Amèrica no ho és tot. Vull dir, que ens estimem i tal, però no ho som tot. I hauríem de considerar que hi ha altres llocs al món que ens haurien d'interessar mentre contem històries. Això empetiteix el món. No ho sé. Crec que treu a la llum la idea de que el món és universal, i les històries esdevenen universals. Deixem de ser l'altre.
SR: That is true. I think it's an interesting model. I think there's something exciting about it. For content creators, I think there's something exciting about it. For the world, I think there's something exciting about it. The idea that there are programs now that can be in multiple languages with characters from all over the world that are appealing and come out for everybody at the same time is exciting. I mean, I think the international sense that television can now take on makes sense to me, that programming can now take on. Television so much is made for, like -- here's our American audience. We make these shows, and then they shove them out into the world and hope for the best, as opposed to really thinking about the fact that America is not it. I mean, we love ourselves and everything, but it's not i. And we should be taking into account the fact that there are all of these other places in the world that we should be interested in while we're telling stories. It makes the world smaller. I don't know. I think it pushes forward the idea that the world is a universal place, and our stories become universal things. We stop being other.
CS: Pel que veig, també has promogut formes curioses de llençar programes nous. Per exemple, quan vas estrenar "Scandal" al 2012, hi va haver una extraordinària onada de suport a Twitter com no s'havia vist abans. Guardes algun altre truc a la màniga per les teves futures estrenes? Què creus que passarà en aquest sentit?
CS: You've pioneered, as far as I can see, interesting ways to launch new shows, too. I mean, when you launched "Scandal" in 2012, there was this amazing groundswell of support on Twitter the likes of which nobody had seen before. Do you have any other tricks up your sleeve when you launch your next one? What do you think will happen in that regard?
SR: Tenim algunes propostes interessants. Tenim un programa, "Still Star-Crossed", que s'estrena a l'estiu. Tenim vàries idees curioses. No estic segura de si les podrem complir a temps. Creia que eren divertides La idea de piular el programa en directe ens va semblar que seria divertit. No vam preveure que els crítics començarien a interactuar amb nosaltres. Però els fans, integrar la gent al programa, com si fos el foc de camp, quan estem tots junts a Twitter i parlem tots alhora, és més una experiència compartida, i trobar altres maneres per fer-la possible i trobar formes per comprometre a les persones és important.
SR: We do have some interesting ideas. We have a show called "Still Star-Crossed" coming out this summer. We have some interesting ideas for that. I'm not sure if we're going to be able to do them in time. I thought they were fun. But the idea that we would live-tweet our show was really just us thinking that would be fun. We didn't realize that the critics would start to live-tweet along with us. But the fans -- getting people to be a part of it, making it more of a campfire -- you know, when you're all on Twitter together and you're all talking together, it is more of a shared experience, and finding other ways to make that possible and finding other ways to make people feel engaged is important.
CS: Quan hi ha tantes persones creant històries i només algunes prosperen i arriben a enganxar a l'audiència, com creus que cobraran als narradors?
CS: So when you have all those different people making stories and only some of them are going to break through and get that audience somehow, how do you think storytellers will get paid?
SR: Francament, tinc problemes amb aquest concepte. Serà un format de subscripció? Dirà la gent, "veuré el programa d'aquest," i és així com ho farem?
SR: I actually have been struggling with this concept as well. Is it going to be a subscriber model? Are people going to say, like, I'm going to watch this particular person's shows, and that's how we're going to do it?
CS: Hauríem de comprar un passaport a Shondaland, oi?
CS: I think we should buy a passport to Shondaland. Right?
SR: No ho sé, potser sí. És una feinada per a mi. Crec que hi haurà diverses maneres d'atreure a l'audiència, però no ho sé ben bé. Honestament, molts creadors de contingut no estan interessats en ser distribuïdors, sobretot perquè el que somio fer és crear contingut. M'encanta crear contingut. Vull cobrar per això i vull cobrar el salari que em mereixo, i és bastant complicat trobar-lo. Però també vull que sigui possible per la gent que treballa amb mi, els que treballen per a mi, que tothom acabi cobrant, i pugui guanyar-se la vida. La forma com es distribueix el contingut es complica cada cop més.
SR: I don't know about that, but yeah. That's a lot more work for me. I do think that there are going to be different ways, but I don't know necessarily. I mean, I'll be honest and say a lot of content creators are not necessarily interested in being distributors, mainly because what I dream of doing is creating content. I really love to create content. I want to get paid for it and I want to get paid the money that I deserve to get paid for it, and there's a hard part in finding that. But I also want it to be made possible for, you know, the people who work with me, the people who work for me, everybody to sort of get paid in a way, and they're all making a living. How it gets distributed is getting harder and harder.
CS: I què passa amb les moltes eines noves, com ara: RV, RA... Trobo fascinant que puguis veure tota una sèries de cop, que puguis tirar endavant en aquestes coses. Com veus el futur de RV i RA per la narració?
CS: How about the many new tools, you know, VR, AR ... I find it fascinating that you can't really binge-watch, you can't fast-forward in those things. What do you see as the future of those for storytelling?
SR: L'any passat vaig dedicar molt temps a explorar això, en moltes demostracions i parant atenció. Ho trobo fascinant, principalment perquè crec que... opino que la majoria les veu com a eines pel joc, Penso que la gent les concep per l'acció, i crec que hi ha una sensació d'intimitat que hi és molt present, la idea de que, imagina't, et pots sentar i conversar amb en Fitz, o al menys sentar-te i escoltar mentre et parla, el president Fitzgerald Grant III, mentre ell t'explica per què pren les decisions que pren, i és un moment molt sincer. I en comptes de mirar la pantalla de la televisió, estàs sentada al seu costat, i esteu conversant. Ara, t'enamores de l'home mentre ell et parla des d'una pantalla. Imagina't seure al seu costat o estar amb un personatge com Huck, qui està a punt d'executar a algú. I en comptes de fer una escena on ell està parlant amb un altre personatge molt de pressa, es fica en un armari i es gira cap a tu i et diu el que passarà i per què està espantat i nerviós. És una mena de teatre, i no estic segura de si això funcionaria, estic fascinada per aquest concepte teatral i pel significat que tindria pel públic. I jugar amb aquestes idees seria interessant, i penso en les persones que miren els meus programes, el meu públic, el qual comprèn dones de 12 a 75 anys, als programes hi ha quelcom interessant per elles.
SR: I spent a lot of time in the past year just exploring those, getting lots of demonstrations and paying attention. I find them fascinating, mainly because I think that -- I think most people think of them for gaming, I think most people think of them for things like action, and I think that there is a sense of intimacy that is very present in those things, the idea that -- picture this, you can sit there and have a conversation with Fitz, or at least sit there while Fitz talks to you, President Fitzgerald Grant III, while he talks to you about why he's making a choice that he makes, and it's a very heartfelt moment. And instead of you watching a television screen, you're sitting there next to him, and he's having this conversation. Now, you fall in love with the man while he's doing it from a television screen. Imagine sitting next to him, or being with a character like Huck who's about to execute somebody. And instead of having a scene where, you know, he's talking to another character very rapidly, he goes into a closet and turns to you and tells you, you know, what's going to happen and why he's afraid and nervous. It's a little more like theater, and I'm not sure it would work, but I'm fascinating by the concept of something like that and what that would mean for an audience. And to get to play with those ideas would be interesting, and I think, you know, for my audience, the people who watch my shows, which is, you know, women 12 to 75, there's something interesting in there for them.
CS: I què n'opines sobre l'input de l'audiència? Com d'interessada estàs en que l'audiència pugui arribar fins a un cert punt i després decidir, "espera, escolliré la meva pròpia aventura." Fugiré amb en Fitz o fugiré amb...
CS: And how about the input of the audience? How interested are you in the things where the audience can actually go up to a certain point and then decide, oh wait, I'm going to choose my own adventure. I'm going to run off with Fitz or I'm going to run off with --
SR: Les històries de "escull la teva aventura". No m'acaben d'agradar, i no necessàriament perquè ho vulgui controlar tot, sino perquè quan veig la televisió o una pel·lícula, tinc la certesa de que una història no és tan bona com quan controlo exactament el què passarà al personatge d'algú altre. Si et pogués dir què m'agradaria que li passés a Walter White, seria increïble, però la història ni seria la mateixa ni seria tan potent. Si m'encarrego de com acaba "Els Soprano", seria preciós, tindria un final bonic i satisfactori, però ni la història seria igual ni tindria el mateix impacte emotiu.
SR: Oh, the choose- your-own-adventure stories. I have a hard time with those, and not necessarily because I want to be in control of everything, but because when I'm watching television or I'm watching a movie, I know for a fact that a story is not as good when I have control over exactly what's going to happen to somebody else's character. You know, if I could tell you exactly what I wanted to happen to Walter White, that's great, but the story is not the same, and it's not as powerful. You know, if I'm in charge of how "The Sopranos" ends, then that's lovely and I have an ending that's nice and satisfying, but it's not the same story and it's not the same emotional impact.
CS: No puc parar d'imaginar-me com seria això. Disculpa, he perdut l'oremus.
CS: I can't stop imagining what that might be. Sorry, you're losing me for a minute.
SR: El que és preciós és que no arribo a imaginar-m'ho ja que Vince té un final propi, i és realment poderós saber que algú altre l'ha imaginat. Si pogués decidir això, a la pel·lícula "Jaws" el tauró guanya, per exemple no fa el que tu vols que faci. La història és la que és, i pots marxar enfadat o discutint, i pots marxar barallant-te, però és per això que funciona. Per això és art. Contràriament, seria tan sols un joc, i els jocs també poden ser art, però d'una forma diferent.
SR: But what's wonderful is I don't get to imagine it, because Vince has his own ending, and it makes it really powerful to know that somebody else has told. You know, if you could decide that, you know, in "Jaws," the shark wins or something, it doesn't do what it needs to do for you. The story is the story that is told, and you can walk away angry and you can walk away debating and you can walk away arguing, but that's why it works. That is why it's art. Otherwise, it's just a game, and games can be art, but in a very different way.
CS: Els jugadors que vènen el dret a comentar el què està passant, els considero més comunitat que narradors.
CS: Gamers who actually sell the right to sit there and comment on what's happening, to me that's more community than storytelling.
SR: És una altra versió del foc de camp. No ho descarto com a forma de narració, però suposo que és una forma d'agrupació.
SR: And that is its own form of campfire. I don't discount that as a form of storytelling, but it is a group form, I suppose.
CS: Molt bé, què en penses sobre el súper-súper el fet que tot s'escurça cada cop més. I ara Snapchat disposa d'una eina que anomena "programes" que duren un minut.
CS: All right, what about the super-super -- the fact that everything's getting shorter, shorter, shorter. And, you know, Snapchat now has something it calls shows that are one minute long.
SR: És interessant. Una part de mi pensa que semblen anuncis. Vull dir, que estan patrocinats per algú. Però una altra part de mi ho entén a la perfecció. Hi ha quelcom meravellós en tot això. Si penses en un món on la majoria de la gent veu la televisió als mòbils, si penses en un lloc com l'Índia, on la majoria de la informació arriba i és on la majoria del producte arriba, més brevetat té sentit. Si pots cobrar més per un contingut més breu, algun distribuidor haurà esbrinat una forma de fer molts diners. Si estàs creant contingut, costa menys de fer i publicar. I, per cert, si tens 14 anys i perds l'atenció fàcilment, com la meva filla, això és el què vols veure, el què vols fer, així és com funciona. I si ho fas bé i el que fas sembla narració, la gent s'hi enganxarà facis el que facis.
SR: It's interesting. Part of me thinks it sounds like commercials. I mean, it does -- like, sponsored by. But part of me also gets it completely. There's something really wonderful about it. If you think about a world in which most people are watching television on their phones, if you think about a place like India, where most of the input is coming in and that's where most of the product is coming in, shorter makes sense. If you can charge people more for shorter periods of content, some distributor has figured out a way to make a lot more money. If you're making content, it costs less money to make it and put it out there. And, by the way, if you're 14 and have a short attention span, like my daughter, that's what you want to see, that's what you want to make, that's how it works. And if you do it right and it actually feels like narrative, people will hang on for it no matter what you do.
CS: M'alegro que hagis criar les teves filles, perquè, em pregunto com consumiran l'entreteniment i no només això, sinó també les notícies. Quan no són, vull dir, els "déus dels algoritmes" els oferiran el que ja han fet. Com creus que ho corregirem i farem dels ciutadans gent responsable?
CS: I'm glad you raised your daughters, because I am wondering how are they going to consume entertainment, and also not just entertainment, but news, too. When they're not -- I mean, the algorithmic robot overlords are going to feed them what they've already done. How do you think we will correct for that and make people well-rounded citizens?
SR: Bé, la forma com ho corregeixo és completament diferent de com ho faria algú altre.
SR: Well, me and how I correct for it is completely different than how somebody else might do it.
CS: Endavant, imagina-ho.
CS: Feel free to speculate.
SR: No sé com corregirem aquests errors al futur. Amb les meves pobres filles he fet tots els meus experiments. Encara fem el que jo anomeno "Estiu Amish" quan apago tots els aparells i guardo tots els ordinadors i veig com criden durant una estona fins que es calmen entrant a una mena "d'estiu lliure d'electrònica." Però honestament, estem parlant d'un món molt dur en el qual ara, com a persones adultes, estem tan tancats a la nostra pròpia bombolla personal, que ni sabem que a vegades se'ns ofereixen només les nostres pròpies opinions. Tal i com funciona el món ara, estàs mirant continguts, que estan sent manipulats perquè només rebis les teves opinions i et sentis cada cop millor amb tu mateix. I com comences a distingir el input? S'està tornant una mica inquietant. És probable que es sobrecorregeixi, que esclati, o potser tots esdevindrem, odio ser negativa sobre això, però probablement esdevinguem més estúpids.
SR: I really don't know how we're going to do it in the future. I mean, my poor children have been the subject of all of my experiments. We're still doing what I call "Amish summers" where I turn off all electronics and pack away all their computers and stuff and watch them scream for a while until they settle down into, like, an electronic-free summer. But honestly, it's a very hard world in which now, as grown-ups, we're so interested in watching our own thing, and we don't even know that we're being fed, sometimes, just our own opinions. You know, the way it's working now, you're watching a feed, and the feeds are being corrected so that you're only getting your own opinions and you're feeling more and more right about yourself. So how do you really start to discern? It's getting a little bit disturbing. So maybe it'll overcorrect, maybe it'll all explode, or maybe we'll all just become -- I hate to be negative about it, but maybe we'll all just become more idiotic.
(Cyndi riu)
(Cyndi laughs)
CS: Sí, pots imaginar-te algun correctiu que es podria fer amb un treball guionat i fictici?
CS: Yeah, can you picture any corrective that you could do with scripted, fictional work?
SR: Penso molt en el fet de que la televisió té la capacitat per educar a la gent poderosament, i quan estàs veient la televisió, per exemple, s'hi fan estudis sobre els programes mèdics. Crec que hi ha un 87%, un 87% de la gent que obté la majoria del seu coneixement sobre la medicina dels programes mèdics, obtenen més d'aquests que dels seus metges, més que dels articles. Així que treballem molt per ser precisos, i cada cop que ens equivoquem, em sento realment culpable, com si féssim quelcom dolent. però també oferim molta informació mèdica valuosa. Hi ha tantes formes de donar informació en aquests programes. Les persones s'entretenen i potser no volen llegir els diaris, però hi ha moltes formes d'oferir dades justes en aquests programes, no d'una forma horripilant, com si anéssim a controlar la ment humana però d'una forma més interessant i intel·ligent i no només oferir una versió sesgada, sinó que dir la veritat. Seria estrany, que els drama de la televisió fossin la forma d'oferir les notícies.
SR: I think a lot about the fact that television has the power to educate people in a powerful way, and when you're watching television -- for instance, they do studies about medical shows. I think it's 87 percent, 87 percent of people get most of their knowledge about medicine and medical facts from medical shows, much more so than they do from their doctors, than from articles. So we work really hard to be accurate, and every time we make a mistake, I feel really guilty, like we're going to do something bad, but we also give a lot of good medical information. There are so many other ways to give information on those shows. People are being entertained and maybe they don't want to read the news, but there are a lot of ways to give fair information out on those shows, not in some creepy, like, we're going to control people's minds way, but in a way that's sort of very interesting and intelligent and not about pushing one side's version or the other, like, giving out the truth. It would be strange, though, if television drama was how we were giving the news.
CS: Seria estrany però he d'entendre que la majoria del que ha escrit com a ficció ha esdevingut predicció aquesta temporada?
CS: It would be strange, but I gather a lot of what you've written as fiction has become prediction this season?
Sap, "Scandal" ha sigut inquietant per aquest motiu. Tenim aquest programa sobre la política embogida i bàsicament la forma en què hem dut el programa, tothom presta atenció als diaris. Ho llegim tot. Parlem sobre tot. Tenim molts amics a Washington. I sempre hem tractat el programa com una mena d'especulació. Sèiem al despatx i pensàvem, i si les rodes sortissin disparades de l'autobús i tot es tornès un caos? I això sempre era genial, excepte que ara és com si les rodes sortissin de l'autobús i les coses fossin realment bojes, així que les coses amb les que especulàvem es tornaven reals. La temporada d'aquest any havia d'acabar amb els russos controlant les eleccions americanes, i això ho havíem escrit i planejat, tot era allà, i després els russos eren sospitosos d'involucrar-se a les eleccions americanes i de sobte vam haver de canviar el guió per la nostra temporada. Arribo i començo, "I l'escena on aquella dona misteriosa comença a parlar rus? Ho hem d'arreglar i decidir què fer." Això prové de l'extrapolació del que havíem pensat que passaria, o del que vèiem com una bogeria.
SR: You know, "Scandal" has been very disturbing for that reason. We have this show that's about politics gone mad, and basically the way we've always told the show -- you know, everybody pays attention to the papers. We read everything. We talk about everything. We have lots of friends in Washington. And we'd always sort of done our show as a speculation. We'd sit in the room and think, what would happen if the wheels came off the bus and everything went crazy? And that was always great, except now it felt like the wheels were coming off the bus and things were actually going crazy, so the things that we were speculating were really coming true. I mean, our season this year was going to end with the Russians controlling the American election, and we'd written it, we'd planned for it, it was all there, and then the Russians were suspected of being involved in the American election and we suddenly had to change what we were going to do for our season. I walked in and I was like, "That scene where our mystery woman starts speaking Russian? We have to fix that and figure out what we're going to do." That just comes from extrapolating out from what we thought was going to happen, or what we thought was crazy.
CS: Fantàstic. On més als EUA o altres parts del món busques aquestes tècniques narratives? Qui fa narracions interessants avui en dia?
CS: That's great. So where else in US or elsewhere in the world do you look? Who is doing interesting storytelling right now?
No ho sé, hi ha molt de material interessant. Evidentment la televisió britànica és sempre fascinant i sempre fa coses interessants. No veig massa televisió, sobretot perquè estic ocupada treballant. I de debò intento no mirar la televisió gaire estona, ni la televisió americana, fins que acabo una temporada, ja que sinó les coses se'm fiquen al cap Em començo a preguntar... per què els personatges no poden portar corones i parlar sobre un tro? Es una bogeria. Per això, intento no mirar massa televisió fins que s'acaben les temporades. Però penso que hi ha molta televisió europea interessant. Vaig estar als International Emmys i estava veient els programes que projectaven, i em vaig quedar sorpresa. Hi ha alguns programes que vull veure i comprovar.
SR: I don't know, there's a lot of interesting stuff out there. Obviously British television is always amazing and always does interesting things. I don't get to watch a lot of TV, mainly because I'm busy working. And I pretty much try not to watch very much television at all, even American television, until I'm done with a season, because things start to creep into my head otherwise. I start to wonder, like, why can't our characters wear crowns and talk about being on a throne? It gets crazy. So I try not to watch much until the seasons are over. But I do think that there's a lot of interesting European television out there. I was at the International Emmys and looking around and seeing the stuff that they were showing, and I was kind of fascinated. There's some stuff I want to watch and check out.
CS: Es pot imaginar, sé que no acostuma a pensar molt en els aspectes tecnològics, però ja sap que ara fa uns quants anys vam rebre a algú a TED que parlava de "veure", mirant els teus programes televisius a través dels Google Glass? Algun cop t'has imaginat... la nena petita que seia al terra del rebost a casa dels seus pares, algun cop t'has imaginat un altre mitjà? Ho faries ara?
CS: Can you imagine -- I know that you don't spend a lot of time thinking about tech stuff, but you know how a few years ago we had someone here at TED talking about seeing, wearing Google Glass and seeing your TV shows essentially in your eye? Do you ever fantasize when, you know -- the little girl who sat on the pantry floor in your parents' house, did you ever imagine any other medium? Or would you now?
SR: Qualsevol altre mitjà. Per narració, que no siguin llibres? Vull dir, he crescut volent ser Toni Morrison, així que no. Ni tan sols m'havia imaginat la televisió. Així que la idea de que hi pogués haver un món més gran, una altra forma més màgica de fer les coses... Sempre m'excito quan apareix la nova tecnologia i sempre sóc la primera que la vol provar. Ara mateix les possibilitats semblen il·limitades i excitants, el qual em fascina. Ens trobem en aquesta mena de període d'Oest Salvatge, i és com si ningú sapigués on ens instal·larem. Ara mateix pots ubicar històries on sigui i això és guay, i sembla com si quan esbrinem com unir la tecnologia i la creativitat de la narració, les possibilitats són infinites
SR: Any other medium. For storytelling, other than books? I mean, I grew up wanting to be Toni Morrison, so no. I mean, I didn't even imagine television. So the idea that there could be some bigger world, some more magical way of making things --- I'm always excited when new technology comes out and I'm always the first one to want to try it. The possibilities feel endless and exciting right now, which is what excites me. We're in this sort of Wild West period, to me, it feels like, because nobody knows what we're going to settle on. You can put stories anywhere right now and that's cool to me, and it feels like once we figure out how to get the technology and the creativity of storytelling to meet, the possibilities are endless.
CS: A més, la tecnologia ha fet possible la idea que comentava anteriorment, "afartar-te a sèries", que és un fenomen recent, des que fas programes, oi? I com creus que això canvia el procés de la narració? Abans, sempre tenies una biblia per tota la temporada, veritat?
CS: And also the technology has enabled the thing I briefly flew by earlier, binge-viewing, which is a recent phenomenon, since you've been doing shows, right? And how do you think does that change the storytelling process at all? You always had a bible for the whole season beforehand, right?
SR: No, simplement sempre sabia on acabaríem. Així, per a mi, l'única cosa que jo puc dir és que tinc un programa amb 14 temporades a les espatlles, hi ha gent que l'està veient des de fa 14 temporades, i després hi ha nenes de 12 anys que em trobo a les botigues que han vist 297 episodis en tres setmanes. I la veritat, és una experiència molt diferent per a elles, ja que ho han viscut molt intensament durant un període de temps molt curt d'una forma molt intensa, i per a elles la història te un desenvolupament ben diferent i un significat totalment diferent perquè no hi ha hagut cap pausa.
SR: No, I just always knew where we were going to end. So for me, the only way I can really comment on that is that I have a show that's been going on for 14 seasons and so there are the people who have been watching it for 14 seasons, and then there are the 12-year-old girls I'd encounter in the grocery store who had watched 297 episodes in three weeks. Seriously, and that's a very different experience for them, because they've been inside of something really intensely for a very short period of time in a very intense way, and to them the story has a completely different arc and a completely different meaning because it never had any breaks.
CS: És com visitar un país i després deixar-lo. És estrany
CS: It's like visiting a country and then leaving it. It's a strange --
SR: És com llegir una novel·la increïble i després deixar-la. Crec que en això consisteix la bellesa de l'experiència. No necessàriament has de veure una sèrie durant 14 temporades. No tot ha de ser així necessàriament.
SR: It's like reading an amazing novel and then putting it down. I think that is the beauty of the experience. You don't necessarily have to watch something for 14 seasons. It's not necessarily the way everything's supposed to be.
CS: Hi ha algun tema que consideres que no s'hauria de tractar?
CS: Is there any topic that you don't think we should touch?
SR: Crec que no. Veig la història així. Veig la història com a personatges i el que aquests poden fer i el que els personatges han de fer per fer avançar les històries, així, mai penso en les històries només com a trama. i quan els escriptors venen al meu despatx amb una trama, jo els hi dic "Vosaltres no parleu l'anglès." És el que els dic. No parlem l'anglès. Necessito sentir què és real. No ho penso d'aquesta forma. No sé si hi ha una forma de pensar que hi ha alguna cosa que no faria ja que és com si arranqués trossos de trama de la paret.
SR: I don't think I think of story that way. I think of story in terms of character and what characters would do and what characters need to do in order to make them move forward, so I'm never really thinking of story in terms of just plot, and when writers come into my writer's room and pitch me plot, I say, "You're not speaking English." Like, that's the thing I say. We're not speaking English. I need to hear what's real. And so I don't think of it that way. I don't know if there's a way to think there's something I wouldn't do because that feels like I'm plucking pieces of plot off a wall or something.
CS: Increïble. Fins a quin punt creu que usarà... recentment ha entrat a la junta de "Planned Parenthood" i s'ha involucrat en la campanya de Hillary Clinton. Fins a quin punt creu que utilitzarà la seva narració al món real per efectuar un canvi?
CS: That's great. To what extent do you think you will use -- You know, you recently went on the board of Planned Parenthood and got involved in the Hillary Clinton campaign. To what extent do you think you will use your storytelling in the real world to effect change?
SR: Bé, ja sap, hi ha... és un assumpte intens per a mi, ja que trobo que la manca de capacitat narrativa que molta gent té és problemàtica. És com si hi hagués moltes organitzacions que no ofereixen una narració positiva que han creat ells mateixos que els ajudaria. Hi ha moltes campanyes que els aniria bé una millor narrativa. Els demòcrates podrien fer molt amb una narrativa més sòlida. Podrien passar moltes coses diferents en relació a l'ús de la veu narrativa, i no ho dir en el context de la ficció, Ho vull dir com ho faria qualsevol redactor de discursos. I ho veig, però no necessàriament veig que aquesta sigui la meva feina.
SR: Well, you know, there's -- That's an intense subject to me, because I feel like the lack of narrative that a lot of people have is difficult. You know, like, there's a lot of organizations that don't have a positive narrative that they've created for themselves that would help them. There's a lot of campaigns that could be helped with a better narrative. The Democrats could do a lot with a very strong narrative for themselves. There's a lot of different things that could happen in terms of using storytelling voice, and I don't mean that in a fiction way, I mean that in a same way that any speechwriter would mean it. And I see that, but I don't necessarily know that that's, like, my job to do that.
CS: Molt bé.
CS: All right.
Si us plau, un aplaudiment per Shonda. SR: Moltes gràcies.
Please help me thank Shonda. SR: Thank you.
(Aplaudiments)
(Applause)