My inbox is full of hate mails and personal abuse and has been for years. In 2010, I started answering those mails and suggesting to the writer that we might meet for coffee and a chat. I have had hundreds of encounters. They have taught me something important that I want to share with you.
我的收件匣中滿滿都是 攻擊性信件以及個人辱罵, 且已經持續數年。 2010 年,我開始回覆那些信件, 向信件作者提議 見面喝杯咖啡聊聊天。 我已經有了數百次的相會。 他們教了我很重要的東西, 今天我要來跟大家分享。
I was born in Turkey from Kurdish parents and we moved to Denmark when I was a young child. In 2007, I ran for a seat in the Danish parliament as one of the first women with a minority background. I was elected, but I soon found out that not everyone was happy about it as I had to quickly get used to finding hate messages in my inbox. Those emails would begin with something like this: "What's a raghead like you doing in our parliament?" I never answered. I'd just delete the emails. I just thought that the senders and I had nothing in common. They didn't understand me, and I didn't understand them. Then one day, one of my colleagues in the parliament said that I should save the hate mails. "When something happens to you, it will give the police a lead."
我生在土耳其,父母是庫德人, 在我還小的時候,我們就搬到丹麥了。 2007 年,我去競選 丹麥國會的一席, 我是第一個少數族群 背景的女性候選人。 我當選了, 但我很快就發現, 並非人人都對這件事感到高興, 我得要很快適應在我的 收件匣中找到攻擊性信件。 那些信件的開頭可能是這樣的: 「你這種用破布裏頭的人 在我們的國會裡幹什麼?」 我從來沒有回應。 我只會把信件刪除。 我只是認為, 寄件者和我完全沒有交集。 他們不了解我, 我不了解他們。 接著,有一天, 我的一位國會同事說, 我應該要把攻擊性信件保存起來。 「當你發生了什麼事, 警方就能有線索。」
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
I noticed that she said, "When something happens" and not "if."
我注意到她說「『當』你 發生了什麼事」而非「如果」。
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
Sometimes hateful letters were also sent to my home address. The more I became involved in public debate, the more hate mail and threats I received. After a while, I got a secret address and I had to take extra precautions to protect my family. Then in 2010, a Nazi began to harass me. It was a man who had attacked Muslim women on the street. Over time, it became much worse. I was at the zoo with my children, and the phone was ringing constantly. It was the Nazi. I had the impression that he was close. We headed home. When we got back, my son asked, "Why does he hate you so much, Mom, when he doesn't even know you?" "Some people are just stupid," I said. And at the time, I actually thought that was a pretty clever answer. And I suspect that that is the answer most of us would give. The others -- they are stupid, brainwashed, ignorant. We are the good guys and they are the bad guys, period.
有時,攻擊性信件也會 寄到我家的地址。 我涉入越多公開辯論, 我就會收到越多攻擊性信件及威脅。 一陣子之後, 我弄了一個秘密地址, 且我得要做額外的預防, 來保護我的家人。 接著,2010 年, 一個納粹開始騷擾我。 這個人曾經在街上攻擊穆斯林女性。 隨時間過去,狀況越來越糟。 我帶孩子去動物園時, 電話響個不停。 是那個納粹打的。 我覺得他就在附近。 我們啟程回家。 當我們回去後, 我兒子問: 「媽,他為什麼這麼恨你? 他甚至不認識你?」 我說:「有些人就是很蠢。」 那時,我還心想 那是個很聰明的回答。 我猜,那也是大部分人會給的答案。 其他人—— 他們很蠢、被洗腦了、很無知。 我們是好人,他們是壞人, 就這麼簡單。
Several weeks later I was at a friend's house, and I was very upset and angry about all the hate and racism I had met. It was he who suggested that I should call them up and visit them. "They will kill me," I said. "They would never attack a member of the Danish Parliament," he said. "And anyway, if they killed you, you would become a martyr."
幾週後,我在一位朋友家中, 我非常沮喪且生氣, 抱怨我所遇到的 所有仇恨和種族主義。 是那位朋友建議我應該 打電話給他們,並拜訪他們。 我說:「他們會殺了我。」 他說:「他們絕對不會 攻擊丹麥國會成員的。」 「而且就算他們殺了你, 你也會變成烈士。」
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
"So it's pure win-win situation for you."
「所以,對你來說, 是怎樣都贏的局面。」
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
His advice was so unexpected, when I got home, I turned on my computer and opened the folder where I had saved all the hate mail. There were literally hundreds of them. Emails that started with words like "terrorist," "raghead," "rat," "whore." I decided to contact the one who had sent me the most. His name was Ingolf. I decided to contact him just once so I could say at least I had tried. To my surprise and shock, he answered the phone. I blurted out, "Hello, my name is Özlem. You have sent me so many hate mails. You don't know me, I don't know you. I was wondering if I could come around and we can drink a coffee together and talk about it?"
我完全沒料到他會這樣建議, 我回家後,打開我的電腦, 開啟了我儲存所有 攻擊性信件的資料夾, 真的有數百封信在裡面。 電子郵件的開頭包括有 「恐怖分子」、 「用破布裏頭的人」、 「鼠輩」、「妓女」。 我決定要和寄最多信 給我的那個人聯絡。 他的名字叫英格夫。 我決定只要聯絡他一次, 這樣我就可以說至少我試過了。 讓我很意外和驚訝的是, 他接起了電話。 我脫口:「哈囉,我是歐茲蘭。 你寄了好多攻擊性信件給我。 你不認識我,我不認識你。 我在想,我能不能過去, 跟你喝杯咖啡,談談這件事?」 (笑聲)
(Laughter)
There was silence on the line. And then he said, "I have to ask my wife."
電話上是一段沉默。 接著,他說: 「我得問一下我太太。」
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
What? The racist has a wife?
什麼?這個種族主義者有太太?
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
A couple of days later, we met at his house. I will never forget when he opened his front door and reached out to shake my hand. I felt so disappointed.
幾天後,我們在他家見面。 我永遠不會忘記, 當他打開他的前門, 伸出手和我握手的那一刻。 我感到好失望。
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
because he looked nothing like I'd imagined. I had expected a horrible person -- dirty, messy house. It was not. His house smelled of coffee which was served from a coffee set identical to the one my parents used. I ended up staying for two and a half hours. And we had so many things in common. Even our prejudices were alike.
因為他完全不是我想像的那樣子。 我預期他會是個很糟糕的人—— 骯髒、零亂的房子。 並非如此。 他的房子有咖啡香, 咖啡香來自他泡咖啡的那組用具, 且跟我父母用的是同一款。 結果,我在那裡待了兩個半小時。 我們有好多共通點。 就連我們的偏見都很相近。
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
Ingolf told me that when he waits for the bus and the bus stops 10 meters away from him, it was because the driver was a "raghead." I recognized that feeling. When I was young and I waited for the bus and it stopped 10 meters away from me, I was sure that the driver was a racist.
英格夫告訴我,當他在等公車時, 公車在離他十公尺的地方停下來, 原因是因為司機是 「用破布裏頭的人」。 我認得這種感覺。 我年輕時, 我在等公車時, 它停在離我十公尺的地方。 我很確定那司機是種族主義者。
When I got home, I was very ambivalent about my experience. On the one hand, I really liked Ingolf. He was easy and pleasant to talk to, but on the other hand, I couldn't stand the idea of having so much in common with someone who had such clearly racist views. Gradually, and painfully, I came to realize that I had been just as judgmental of those who had sent me hate mails as they had been of me.
當我回到家, 我對我的經歷感到十分矛盾。 一方面,我真的很喜歡英格夫。 跟他說話很自在愉快, 但另一方面, 我無法忍受想到和我 有如此多共通點的人, 卻也是個有這麼明顯 種族主義觀點的人。 漸漸地,且痛苦地, 我開始了解到, 我其實也在評斷那些 寄攻擊性信件給我的人, 就如同他們在評斷我一樣。
This was the beginning of what I call #dialoguecoffee. Basically, I sit down for coffee with people who have said the most terrible things to me to try to understand why they hate people like me when they don't even know me. I have been doing this the last eight years. The vast majority of people I approach agree to meet me. Most of them are men, but I have also met women. I have made it a rule to always meet them in their house to convey from the outset that I trust them. I always bring food because when we eat together, it is easier to find what we have in common and make peace together.
這件事開始了我所稱的 「#對話咖啡」。 基本上,我會和曾經對我說過 最惡劣的話的人坐下來喝杯咖啡, 試圖了解為什麼他們 會恨像我這樣的人, 即使他們根本不認識我。 我過去八年都一直在做這件事。 我試圖聯絡的人, 絕大多數都同意跟我見面。 大部分是男性, 但我也曾經見過女性。 我訂下了一條規則, 都要在他們的家中和他們見面, 從一開端就傳達出我對他們的信任。 我總會帶食物, 因為當我們一起吃時, 就比較容易找到我們的共通點, 並一起言歸於好。
Along the way, I have learned some valuable lessons. The people who sent hate mails are workers, husbands, wives, parents like you and me. I'm not saying that their behavior is acceptable, but I have learned to distance myself from the hateful views without distancing myself from the person who's expressing those views. And I have discovered that the people I visit are just as afraid of people they don't know as I was afraid of them before I started inviting myself for coffee.
一路上,我學到了一些寶貴的經驗。 寄攻擊性信件給我的人是勞工、 丈夫、妻子、 父母,跟你我沒兩樣。 我並不是說他們的 行為是可以接受的, 但我已經學會了讓我自己遠離仇恨的看法, 卻不讓自己遠離表述那些看法的人。 我發現, 我拜訪的那些人 只是害怕他們不認識的人, 就如同在我開始要求 自己去喝咖啡之前, 我會很害怕他們一樣。
During these meetings, a specific theme keeps coming up. It shows up regardless whether I'm talking to a humanist or a racist, a man, a woman, a Muslim or an atheist. They all seem to think that other people are to blame for the hate and for the generalization of groups. They all believe that other people have to stop demonizing. They point at politicians, the media, their neighbor or the bus driver who stops 10 meters away. But when I asked, "What about you? What can you do?", the reply is usually, "What can I do? I have no influence. I have no power." I know that feeling. For a large part of my life, I also thought that I didn't have any power or influence -- even when I was a member of the Danish parliament. But today I know the reality is different. We all have power and influence where we are, so we must never, never underestimate our own potential.
在這些會面過程中, 有一個主題不斷出現。 這個主題總會出現,不論我談話的 對象是人道主義者或種族主義者, 男人或女人, 穆斯林或無神論者。 他們似乎全都認為 仇恨、族群的概化, 都是其他人的錯, 他們都相信, 其他人必須要停止妖魔化。 他們把矛頭對準政客、 媒體、他們的鄰居, 或是把公車停在十公尺外的司機。 但當我問:「你自己呢? 你能做什麼?」 回答通常是: 「我能做什麼? 我沒有影響力。 我沒有權力。」 我知道那種感覺。 我人生中很長一段時間也認為 我沒有任何權力或影響力—— 即使當我成為丹麥 國會的成員也一樣。 但,現今,我知道現實是不同的。 不論我們在哪裡, 我們都有權力和影響力, 所以我們永遠不可以, 永遠不可以低估我們自己的潛力。
The #dialoguecoffee meetings have taught me that people of all political convictions can be caught demonizing the others with different views. I know what I'm talking about. As a young child, I hated different population groups. And at the time, my religious views were very extreme. But my friendship with Turks, with Danes, with Jews and with racists has vaccinated me against my own prejudices. I grew up in a working-class family, and on my journey I have met many people who have insisted on speaking to me. They have changed my views. They have formed me as a democratic citizen and a bridge builder. If you want to prevent hate and violence, we have to talk to as many people as possible for as long as possible while being as open as possible. That can only be achieved through debate, critical conversation and insisting on dialogue that doesn't demonize people.
「#對話咖啡」會面教導我的是: 任何政治信念的人, 都可能會將其他 不同觀點的人給妖魔化。 我知道我在說什麼。 我還小的時候, 我痛恨不同的族群。 那時,我的宗教觀點 是非常極端的。 但我和土耳其人、丹麥人、 猶太人,及種族主義者的友誼, 已經讓我對於我自己的 偏見能夠免疫。 我在一個勞工階級的家庭長大, 在我的旅程中,我見到了許多人, 他們堅持要跟我說話。 他們改變了我的觀點。 他們讓我成為了一個民主的 公民以及搭起橋樑的人。 如果你想要預防仇恨和暴力, 我們得要盡可能和更多人談談, 能做多久就做多久, 且要盡可能讓自己保持開放態度。 達成的唯一方式只有辯論、 批判性交談, 並堅持在對話中不要將別人妖魔化。
I'm going to ask you a question. I invite you to think about it when you get home and in the coming days, but you have to be honest with yourself. It should be easy, no one else will know it. The question is this ... who do you demonize? Do you think supporters of American President Trump are deplorables? Or that those who voted for Turkish President Erdoğan are crazy Islamists? Or that those who voted for Le Pen in France are stupid fascists? Or perhaps you think that Americans who voted for Bernie Sanders are immature hippies.
我要問各位一個問題。 我想請各位在回家之後 及接下來的幾天想想這個問題, 但你們得要對自己誠實以待。 應該很容易,沒有其他人會知道。 這個問題就是…… 你把誰妖魔化了? 你認為美國總統川普的支持者 是可嘆的、淒慘的人 (註:希拉蕊說的)? 或者,認為投票給 土耳其總統艾爾多安的人 是瘋狂的伊斯蘭教徒? 或者,認為在法國投票給勒朋的人 是愚蠢的法西斯主義者? 或者,也許你認為投票給 伯尼桑德斯的美國人 是不成熟的嬉皮?
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
All those words have been used to vilify those groups. Maybe at this point, do you think I am an idealist?
所有這些字詞, 都曾經被用來誹謗那些族群。 也許,在這個時點, 你認為我是個理想主義者?
I want to give you a challenge. Before the end of this year, I challenge you to invite someone who you demonize -- someone who you disagree with politically and/or culturally and don't think you have anything in common with. I challenge you to invite someone like this to #dialoguecoffee. Remember Ingolf? Basically, I'm asking you to find an Ingolf in your life, contact him or her and suggest that you can meet for #dialoguecofee.
我想要給各位一個挑戰。 在今年結束之前, 我挑戰各位,去邀請 某個被你妖魔化的人—— 你在政治上及/或文化上不能認同, 且你認為和你沒有共通點的人。 我挑戰各位,去邀請這樣的人 進行#對話咖啡。 記得英格夫嗎? 基本上,我是在請你們去找到 自己人生中的英格夫, 聯絡他/她, 提議你們可以見個面, 來杯#對話咖啡。
When you start at #dialoguecoffee, you have to remember this: first, don't give up if the person refuses at first. Sometimes it's taken me nearly one year to arrange a #dialoguecoffee meeting. Two: acknowledge the other person's courage. It isn't just you who's brave. The one who's inviting you into their home is just as brave. Three: don't judge during the conversation. Make sure that most of the conversation focuses on what you have in common. As I said, bring food. And finally, remember to finish the conversation in a positive way because you are going to meet again. A bridge can't be built in one day.
當你開始做#對話咖啡時,切記: 第一,如果對方一開始拒絕你, 不要放棄。 有時,我要花一年才能安排好 一次#對話咖啡的會面。 第二:認可對方的勇氣。 勇敢的人不只是你。 邀請你進到他家中的 那個人也同等勇敢。 第三:在交談時不要做評斷。 確保交談能大致上聚焦在 你們的共通點上。 如先前說過的,帶食物去。 最後,切記,要用 正面的方式來結束交談, 因為你們會再次見面。 橋樑不是一天就能建造好的。
We are living in a world where many people hold definitive and often extreme opinions about the others without knowing much about them. We notice of course the prejudices on the other side than in our own bases. And we ban them from our lives. We delete the hate mails. We hang out only with people who think like us and talk about the others in a category of disdain. We unfriend people on Facebook, and when we meet people who are discriminating or dehumanizing people or groups, we don't insist on speaking with them to challenge their opinions. That's how healthy democratic societies break down -- when we don't check the personal responsibility for the democracy. We take the democracy for granted. It is not. Conversation is the most difficult thing in a democracy and also the most important.
在我們所居住的世界中, 人們對於其他人 會抱持有決定性 且通常很極端的意見, 但其實對於對方所知甚少。 我們比較會注意到對方的偏見, 而不是我們自己這邊的。 我們就把他們排拒在 我們的人生之外了。 我們會把攻擊性信件刪除。 我們只和跟我們思想 相近的人一起出去, 用一種鄙棄的方式來談論他人。 我們在臉書上解除朋友關係, 當我們遇到有歧視或是會把 人或族群給妖魔化的人時, 我們不會堅持要和他們說話 來挑戰他們的意見。 健康的民主社會就是 這樣才失靈的—— 我們不去檢查個人在民主上的責任。 我們覺得民主是理所當然的。 並不是。 在民主中,交談是最困難, 卻也是最重要的。
So here's my challenge. Find your Ingolf.
所以,這是我給大家的挑戰。 找到你的英格夫。(笑聲)
(Laughter)
Start a conversation. Trenches have been dug between people, yes, but we all have the ability to build the bridges that cross the trenches.
開始進行交談。 是的,人與人之間 已經被挖出了鴻溝, 但我們都有能力 可以在鴻溝上面搭建橋樑。
And let me end by quoting my friend, Sergeot Uzan, who lost his son, Dan Uzan, in a terror attack on a Jewish synagogue in Copenhagen, 2015. Sergio rejected any suggestion of revenge and instead said this ... "Evil can only be defeated by kindness between people. Kindness demands courage." Dear friends, let's be courageous.
在演說的尾聲,我想要引述 我朋友沙吉阿特烏贊的話, 在一場恐怖攻擊當中, 他失去了他的兒子,丹烏贊, 這件事於 2015 年發生在 哥本哈根的猶太教堂中。 沙吉阿特回絕了任何報復的建議, 反之,他這麼說…… 「只有人與人之間的仁慈, 才能打敗邪惡。 仁慈需要勇氣。」 親愛的朋友們, 咱們鼓起勇氣吧。
Thank you.
謝謝。
(Applause)
(掌聲)