Meg Jay: We need to talk about the empathy gap. So the empathy gap is why we sometimes hate on people on the other end of the political spectrum. Or it's why maybe we shrug their shoulders at the problems of those who look different or live different or love different than we do. It's why we almost certainly aren't doing enough to protect our kids and grandkids from climate change. It can just be difficult sometimes to care about people that we don't know or to do right by people who don't even exist yet. But what if I told you that that same empathy gap can also get in the way of us doing right by ourselves in our 20s and beyond? And before I go on, let me say that everything I'm about to talk about also applies to all of us out there who are well beyond our 20s.
梅格·杰伊(Meg Jay): 我们需要谈一谈同理心缺口。 同理心缺口就是为什么有时候 我们会讨厌另一个政治倾向的人。 或者为什么我们可能 对那些看起来跟我们不一样, 生活方式以及喜好跟我们不一样的人 所遭遇的问题会满不在乎。 它也是我们在保护子孙后代, 不受气候变化带来的影响方面 做得还不够的原因。 它有时可能表现在 我们很难去关心不认识的人。 或者很难为了还没出生的人 去做一些正确的事。 但是如果我告诉你 同样的同情心缺口, 也会发生在 20 多岁的自己 和未来的自己之间呢? 在我继续演讲之前, 我想说接下来我说的一切, 也同样适用于所有那些 已经过了 20 多岁的人。
But for a little bit of background, in 2013, I gave a talk about why our twenties matter. So it's about almost 10 years later. I'm still a clinical psychologist who specializes in 20-somethings. But these days, the 20-somethings I see, they know their 20s matter. So they want to get them right. They want to move to the right city. They want to take the right job. They want to find the right partner. They want to have the right answers. Well, the bad news is there are no right answers. There are no right answers for where you should live or where you should work or how you should settle down. These are what are called "large world problems" because there are just too many unknowns. No app, no algorithm, no enneagram can ever solve these problems or answer these questions for you.
我要交待一点小背景, 我在 2013 年做了一个演讲, 关于为什么 20 多岁 是很重要的时期。 现在已经过去差不多 10 年了。 我还是一个专门研究 20 多岁年轻人的临床心理学家。 但是如今我见到的 20 多岁的年轻人, 他们已经知道 自己目前的人生阶段很重要。 所以他们想把一切做好。 他们想搬到正确的城市, 他们想从事正确的工作, 他们想找到正确的伴侣, 他们想拥有正确的答案。 坏消息是,没有正确的答案。 你应该在哪里生活、工作以及定居, 这些问题是没有正确答案的。 这些都是所谓的“世界性大难题”, 因为这当中有太多的未知。 没有软件,没有算法, 也没有性格形态学, 能够帮你解决这些难题 或者回答这些疑问。
But the good news is, because there are no right answers, there are no wrong answers. There are only your answers. So your 20s are a great time to listen to and be honest with yourself. They're a great time to have a conversation with your future self. So philosopher Derek Parfit said we neglect our future selves because of some sort of failure of belief or imagination. So I'm going to say that again, because it's really important: we neglect our future selves because of some sort of failure of belief or imagination. So when you're young, it can be difficult to imagine or believe that you could ever really be 35, especially when most of the influencers you see on Instagram or TikTok are younger than that. But that's a problem because research shows that our brains think about our future selves similarly to how they think about strangers. And that's where the empathy gap comes in. It can be difficult for us to care about a version of ourselves that we haven't met yet.
但好消息是,因为不存在正确答案, 所以也没有错误答案。 只有你的答案。 所以你的 20 岁是一个可以倾听 和诚实面对自己的好时机。 它是一个你可以跟未来的自己 进行一场对话的美好时光。 哲学家德里克·帕菲特 (Derek Parfit)说过, 因为一些信仰或想象力的失败 我们会忽略未来的自己。 我要再重复一遍, 因为这句话真的很重要: 我们因为信仰或想象力的失败, 而忽略未来的自己。 当你年轻的时候, 很难想象或者相信 你有一天会真的到 35 岁。 你在 Instagram 和 TikTok 上看到的网红 甚至更年轻。 但这是一个问题,因为研究表明, 我们的大脑在想象未来的自己时, 跟想象陌生人是相似的。 这就是同理心缺口的来源。 我们很难去在乎一个 还没有见过的自己。
Yet research also shows that if we find a way to close that empathy gap between our present selves and our future selves, we start to think more about what we could do now to be kind to ourselves down the line. So in one of my favorite studies on this, researchers used virtual reality to show 20-somethings what they would look like when they're old. Scary, I know, but the 20-somethings who saw their age-morphed selves, set aside more money towards retirement than those who didn't. So I don't have virtual reality in my office and saving for retirement isn't something that comes up a whole lot. But what does come up a whole lot is that about 85 percent of life's most defining moments take place by around age 35. So I ask my clients to imagine themselves at age 35 and I ask them to believe in their ability to have created those defining moments. And then I ask them to get really specific about what they see. What do I look like, where do I live, what do I do for work? Do I enjoy the work? Is it meaningful? Is it important? Does it pay well? Might these things be true one day? Which of these things do I really care about? What about after work? Who do I come home to? Do I have a partner? What does that relationship look like? How does it look different or similar to the ones that I saw growing up? Are there kids in the picture? How old was I when I had my first child? How old might I be when that child goes to college or has their own kids? And of course, am I happy, am I healthy? And what exactly do I do or not do that makes me happy and healthy?
研究还表明, 如果我们能找到方法填补, 当现在的自己面对未来的自己时 的同理心缺口, 我们就会更多的地考虑 现在要怎样做, 才能善待以后的自己。 我最喜欢的这方面的研究之一, 是研究人员利用虚拟现实技术, 为 20 多岁的年轻人, 展现他们老了之后的样子。 我知道这很可怕, 但是这些见过老年的自己的年轻人, 相比那些没见过的人, 会为自己的退休生活存下更多的钱。 我的办公室没有虚拟现实, 而且为退休生活存钱, 并不是经常出现的事情。 但是真正重要的是, 人生中大概有 85% 的决定性时刻, 出现在 35 岁左右。 所以我让我的客户想象 他们 35 岁时的样子, 并让他们相信是通过自己的能力 创造了这些决定性的时刻。 我让他们具体描述他们看到了什么, 那时的我会是什么样子, 住在哪,从事什么工作? 我享受这份工作吗?它是否有意义? 它是否很重要?薪资待遇怎样? 这些事情有一天会变成现实吗? 这其中哪些是我真正关心的? 下班之后又是怎样的呢? 回家后我有要找的人吗? 我有伴侣吗? 那么这段感情又会是怎样的呢? 它会跟我见过的其他的感情 相似还是不同? 我会有孩子吗? 第一个孩子出生时我多大? 当我的孩子上大学, 或者有了他自己的孩子时我多大? 当然,我幸福吗,我健康吗? 那么又是哪些我做了或者没做的事 使我能够幸福和健康呢?
So the idea here is just to try to get to know your future self, because when we spend time connecting with that person, we do some reverse engineering and we start to ask our present self questions about how our present and our future can come together or meet somewhere in the middle, along the way. We start to ask questions like, "How is everything I think I want going to fit?" or "What does all this mean about what I need to be doing now?" Or here's one of my favorite questions to ask yourself at any age: "If I'm in a job or a relationship or a situation I would like not to be in in five years, then how much longer am I going to spend on this?" So, like I said, many of these are tough questions. But 20 years of doing this work has taught me that 20-somethings aren't afraid of being asked the tough questions. What they're really afraid of is not being asked the tough questions. And maybe that's because they've told the world that they're interested in having courageous conversations about race and class and politics and the environment. And perhaps at any age, one of the most courageous conversations you can have is with your future self. Thank you.
所以在这里只是想让你 了解未来的自己, 因为只有当我们花时间 与那个未来的自己沟通, 我们才会做一些改变, 我们会开始问现在的自己, 要何好跟未来的自己共处, 或者达到某种妥协。 我们开始问一些问题,诸如, “我所想要的一切 会与实际相符吗?” 或者“我现在要去做的事情 究竟有什么意义?” 我个人最喜欢的可以在任何年龄 去问你自己的问题之一是: “如果有一份工作、或者一段恋情 又或者是一个处境, 是我不想在五年后看到的, 那么我还会继续在上面 花多少时间?” 就像我说的,很多都是难题。 但是 20 年的从业经验, 教会我的是,20 多岁的年轻人 不害怕回答这些难题。 他们真正害怕的是 没人问他们这些难题。 也许这是因为他们告诉过这个世界, 他们对这些关于种族、阶级、 政治和环境的勇敢的谈话很感兴趣。 也许对于任何年龄来说, 最勇敢的谈话之一就是 跟未来的自己交谈。 谢谢。
Whitney Pennington Rodgers: Thank you so much, Meg. That was wonderful. I'm glad to be here with you and with all of our members. And I know that your work is with people in their 20s, young adults. But you mentioned in your talk that this is something you can apply at any stage of your life and at any point. It's not just advice that you should use in your 20s, is that right?
惠特尼·彭宁顿·罗杰斯 (Whitney Pennington Rodgers): 非常感谢,梅格。 非常棒。 很高兴能在这里跟你以及大家见面。 我知道你的工作 是跟 20 多岁的年轻人有关。 但是在你的演讲中也提到, 你所说的适用于人生的任何阶段 和任何时期。 这不只是给 20 多岁 年轻人的建议,对吧?
MJ: Oh, yes. I mean, I think our 20s is when we first start having to sort of figure out, "Oh, there's a future self out there. And I guess I better think about that person." Because, you know, like, school kind of does it for us, has us plot two or three years in advance. So our 20s are when we first start to think across those horizons. We get better at it over time. And then in our 30s, 40s, 50s, we have more built-in connections to the future. Like maybe if you have kids, you think, "Hey, I really want to be around when they graduate from college" or whatever the case may be. So there are there are ways we kind of -- it becomes a little bit more natural the older that you get. But it's always important. I have a couple in my practice right now and they're actually having a conversation with their future relationship, because in about five years, their kids are going to be leaving for college and they want to be sure they have a marriage they feel good about when the kids are gone. Or if I think about myself, I'm 51. So I'm having a conversation with my future self about, "Hey, you know, what do I want to get out of the years of my career that are just ahead in my 50s and, you know, time's running out. What is it I want to get done?" So I think we're, you know, we always need to be in conversation with our future self. It's just something that's new and usually quite difficult for 20-somethings.
梅格·杰伊:是的。 我觉得我们在 20 多岁时 才会开始出现这种想法, “会有一个未来的自己, 我想我最好考虑一下 那个人的事。” 因为之前学校会帮我们 制定未来两三年的规划。 所以我们在 20 多岁才 第一次开始思考未来的事。 随着时间的推移我们会 越来越善于这样的思考。 当我们30多、 40多、50多岁时, 我们有了和未来更多的内在联系。 如果你有了孩子, 你会想, “ 我真希望一直在他们身边, 直到他们大学毕业”之类的。 所以有时候, 年龄更大后会感觉更坦然。 但这在每个年龄很重要。 我正在引导一对夫妻, 他们其实在谈他们未来的关系, 因为还有不到五年, 他们的孩子就要去上大学了, 他们想确认是否能保持 良好的婚姻关系。 在孩子离家之后, 我也想想自己,我 51 岁了。 所以我也在和未来的自己对话, ”嘿,你知道, 我想在自己 50 岁前 从自己的职业生涯中获得什么? 你也知道,时间飞逝 我到底想做什么?” 所以我想, 我们需要常和未来的自己对话。 这对于 20 多岁的人, 是新鲜的也是困难的。
WPR: So I guess one thing I’m curious about is, you know, people have said, "OK, I like this idea of these questions. I want to ask myself these questions." And they do that. And then what happens? You know, I guess, what do you recommend people do next? What is the way that they can sort of take this further to advance themselves and this thinking?
惠特尼·潘宁顿·罗杰斯: 我有一件事很好奇, 人们会说, “好吧, 我觉得这个想法很不错, 我想问自己这些问题。” 他们也确实如此做了,但是然后呢? 你接下来建议人们怎么做, 他们如何能更进一步, 如何能自我提升之类的?
MJ: Yeah, so, you know, again, it depends on the goal or what ended up happening between you and your future self in this conversation. But I think like most long-form projects, so I would suggest some, you know, pencil and paper, do some math, sort of sketch out some things just to start with. And then as you go along, you might realize other things that are important to you down the line that you want to be sure that you get in there and add in there. And then I would figure out -- it depends on what it is, but a schedule that works for you, where you check in about your progress on, "Hey, am I being true to myself and to my future self in terms of what I said I was going to start prioritizing more." So maybe that check-in is once a month. Maybe it's every year on New Year's. Maybe it's your birthday. It really kind of depends. But I do think -- I mean, having this conversation one time because you heard my chat today and then dropping it is probably not going to do a lot for you. But if it's kind of the beginning of an ongoing conversation with yourself and like with any goal, it's probably something we need to keep circling back around on. "OK? Is this still what I want and how am I doing on this?" It kind of create some accountability. And so for that, that is where I think some people find, I'm going to tell a friend or I'm going to tell my pastor or I'm going to write it in my journal or whatever it is for you to kind of say, this is a goal that I'm going to own and I'm going to keep coming back to it.
梅格·杰伊:同样, 这取决于你的目标, 或者在你和未来的自己 对话时发生了什么。 但我想就像大多数长期项目一样, 我会建议拿起笔纸算一算, 先勾勒出一个大致的草稿。 当你进行下去时, 你或许会意识到 其他对你很重要的事情, 你想把这些重要的事情 加入到规划中。 然后具体情况具体分析, 不过你需要有一个时间表, 来查看事情进程。 “嘿,我对自己和未来的自己 是否真诚呢? 我做到了说过的考虑优先次序吗?” 可以每月查看一次进展, 也可以是每年新年查看, 亦或者是在生日这一天查看, 这要视情况而定。 但我真的认为, 如果因为你听了我今天的讲话, 进行了一次和自己的对话, 但是后来放弃了, 那这不会对你有什么帮助。 但是如果这是你和自己对话的开始, 就像任何其他目标一样, 这是我们需要不断进行回顾调整的。 ”这就是我想要的了吗, 我做得到底如何呢?“ 就如同有了一些责任。 这些责任使某些人觉得, 我要告诉一个朋友, 我要告诉我的牧师, 我要写进日记, 或者这之类的。 可以说这就是我的目标, 而且我会继续追寻下去。
WPR: Have some sort of partner, even if that partner is yourself, your future self.
惠特尼·潘宁顿·罗杰斯: 就像是有了一个同伴, 即使这个同伴其实 就是你自己,未来的你。
MJ: Right.
梅格·杰伊:没错。
WPR: Well, Meg, thank you so much for being with us today, for your for your talk and for sharing so much of your wisdom around these questions and your 20s, and so much more. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
惠特尼·潘宁顿·罗杰斯:好的, 梅格,感谢你今天的到来。 感谢你带来的演讲 和颇具智慧的想法, 关于这些问题,20 岁的时期, 以及所有的一切, 真是感激不尽。
MJ: Yeah, my pleasure. It was really fun.
梅格·杰伊:我的荣幸, 这是场非常有趣的谈话。