Whitney Pennington Rodgers: Each of us, no matter who we are, have dreams for ourselves. and all of us also have fears. Luvvie Ajayi Jones has spent lots of time thinking about the intersection of these two things, namely, how you can overcome your fears to accomplish your dreams. Here to break this all down for us is Luvvie Ajayi Jones. Welcome, Luvvie.
惠妮·潘尼頓·羅傑斯:無論是誰, 每個人都有自己的夢想。 我們也都有恐懼。 拉薇·艾賈伊·瓊斯花了 很多時間思考這兩者的關聯, 即,你要如何克服恐懼來實現夢想。 拉薇·艾賈伊·瓊斯要來為我們說明。 拉薇,歡迎。 拉薇:嗨!
Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Hi!
惠妮:嗨,拉薇,你好嗎?
WPR: Hi, Luvvie. How are you doing?
拉薇:很好,好很。
LAJ: Doing well. Doing well.
WPR: Why do you use the term "professional troublemaker" to describe yourself? Why is that sort of the term that you've landed on to define what you are, who you are?
惠妮:為什麼你要用「職業的 製造麻煩者」來形容自己? 為什麼你會選擇用個詞 來定義你是什麼樣的人? 拉薇:我們有些人在成長過程 會常被稱為製造麻煩者。
LAJ: Yeah. You know, some of us have been called troublemakers growing up. When you are too loud in the class or, you know, your mom tells you to eat vegetables and you say no, and you're like, you're a troublemaker. I want to reclaim what that means. I think about the late, great John Lewis, who said we have to be ready to make necessary trouble, good trouble, and really was the lens of: we are going to have to do things that are going to disrupt the status quo in this world. If we're going to do anything of impact and of note and make any type of positive change, we are going to have to "make trouble." And making trouble is not about being a contrarian randomly. It's not about being a troll. It's not just simply because you want to make people uncomfortable. It's that, often, when you are the person who thinks different from everybody else in the room, it does feel like trouble. You know, when you are not going along with the group, it feels like trouble. But sometimes, it's actually what you need to do to not just honor yourself, but honor the world and honor who you want to be. So if making trouble looks like we actually end up being better off for it, then we have to make trouble. I think it's an obligation for us to make trouble, the type that leaves our kids better, that leaves the rooms that we are in elevated, the types that lets us be proud of ourselves.
也許是在課堂上太大聲,或者…… 你媽媽叫你吃蔬菜時你說不要, 你就成為了製造麻煩者。 我想改變這個詞的意思。 我會想到已故的約翰·路易斯,他說, 他說: 我們必須準備好 製造必要的麻煩,好的麻煩, 意思其實是: 我們必須要做一些 會打破世上現狀的事情。 如果我們要做有影響力、 有重要性的事情, 做出正向的改變, 我們就得「製造麻煩」。 製造麻煩的重點不是要隨機唱反調。 重點不是要當酸民。 並不是想要讓別人感到不舒服。 重點是,通常, 當你的想法和全場 所有其他人都不同時, 那就像是麻煩。 如果你不配合團體, 那就像是麻煩。 但有時你非得這麼做, 不只是尊重你自己, 也是尊重世界,尊重 你想要成為怎樣的人。 所以,如果製造麻煩的結果 是我們變得更好了, 那我們就得製造麻煩。我認為, 我們有義務要製造麻煩, 這種麻煩會讓我們的孩子過得更好, 讓我們所處的空間能夠提升, 讓我們為自己感到驕傲。
Now, making trouble will not always go well, right? Let's keep -- I'm going to say that. It's not that when you speak the truth, somebody's going to always receive it properly. But you go to bed knowing that you at least tried, as opposed to saying, "What if I had tried?" It's a life of, "Oh, well," then "What if?" So I think that's why professional troublemaking is something that we should be proud of.
製造麻煩不見得會有好結果,對吧? 咱們——我要直說。 並不是當你說實話時, 別人就一定會妥當地接收到。 但至少你知道你試過了,心安理得, 而不是在說:「如果 我當初有嘗試呢?」 這是種「喔,好」 而非「如果當初」的人生。 所以我認為那就是為什麼 我們應該為「職業的 製造麻煩」感到驕傲。
WPR: So I know everyone is dying to know: How how do I become a professional troublemaker? You outlined this in your book. You talk a little bit about it in your talk. But I know there are three big things that you think you need to do to approach this idea of becoming a troublemaker. Will you share a little bit about that with us?
惠妮:大家都很想知道, 我要如何成為職業的製造麻煩者? 你在你的書中有概述, 剛才也談到了一點。 但我知道你認為 必須要做到三個重點, 才能成為「職業的製造麻煩者」, 能跟我們分享一下嗎? 拉薇:好的,所以,
LAJ: Yes. So when you are in the room, and somebody says something that is not a great idea -- we've all been in meetings like that, where a campaign idea was brought forth or a slogan or just something, and you're just like, "Oof," but everybody else in the room is like, "This is a great idea! We love it! Yes, let's do it!" And usually you feel like you're standing on an island by yourself, because you're like, "If I'm the only person that has a problem with it, am I the problem?" So then oftentimes, we'll be quiet, the room will dissipate, we walk out, and we keep thinking about that moment, and we keep saying, "Should I have said something?" I don't like the feeling of thinking, "Should I have said something?" Because I'll sit on it, and I'll overthink it, and I'll think about it the day after, and I'll be like, "I should have said something."
當你在房間裡, 有人提出了一個不怎麼樣的主意—— 我們都參加過這樣的會議, 有人提出了宣傳點子 或標語之類的, 你心想:「呼!」 但房間裡的其他人卻都說: 「好點子!我喜歡,來動手吧!」 通常此時你會覺得你自己 一個人站在孤島上, 你會想:「如果我覺得這點子不好, 也許問題在我?」 所以,通常我們會保持沉默, 大家就散會了, 我們走出房間後會一直想著那一刻, 一直說:「我剛才 是不是該說點什麼?」 我不喜歡想著「我剛才是不是 該說點什麼?」的感覺。 因為我會把這件事一直放著, 想太多,隔天再想, 我會想:「我當時應該說點什麼。」 所以,在那些困難的時刻,
So for those tough moments where you want to say something that feels like it's contrary to what everybody else is saying but you know you deeply believe it, I say ask yourself three questions. And if the answer is yes to all three, you say the thing. OK, so the three questions are: Do I mean it? This question is important because you're not just talking to hear your own voice. Do you actually mean what you're about to say? Can I defend it? OK, if somebody challenges you on this thing that you are also challenging, do you have a way to justify and back it up? Do you have a clear way to say, "These are the receipts I'm coming with"? And then: Can I say it thoughtfully? Because how you say it does matter. Now, it does not mean that you should be tone-policed, nor does it mean that everybody will think you're saying it thoughtfully. But if you at least try to run it through your own, "Am I trying to be as thoughtful as possible?" it's risk mitigation. So you're saying, "OK, I'm not going to be hateful about this. I'm not going to say this to demean somebody. And I'm not just saying it to blow the room up or make the room feel like a rocky place to be in." When the answer is yes to all three -- Do I mean it? Can I defend it? Can I say thoughtfully? -- say it, and then deal with whatever comes. Now, again -- I say risk mitigation. I'm not saying everybody will receive what you're going to say with the intention you meant, OK? But it is a way to check yourself, check in with yourself, check what you're about to say, check your tone a little bit so it doesn't come out as unthoughtful as it could. Because there are moments when things might be heated and you might want to speak really quickly. It slows you down just a little bit to say, all right, all right, you do want to say this thing, it is valid, but don't come at this person's neck. So I think it's important for me. It's a checkpoint that I've used for years that I kind of lead with. And most of the time it goes well.
當你想說出和大家不同的意見, 但你真心相信該說時, 你可以問自己三個問題。 如果三個答案都是「是」,就說吧。 好,所以這三個問題是: 我是認真的嗎? 這個問題很重要,是因為 發言不是為了聽見你自己的聲音。 對你準備要說出來的話, 你是認真的嗎? 我能為它辯護嗎? 如果有人在這件 (你也挑戰的)事上挑戰你, 你有辦法提出正當理由 來支持你的說法嗎? 你有沒有辦法清楚地說: 「我可以用這些收據證明。」 以及,我能否周到地說出來? 因為「怎麼說」會有差別。 並不是說你應該注意語氣, 也不是說人人就會 認為你說得很周到。 但如果你至少自己演練一下: 「我有沒有盡可能做到周到?」 這是在減低風險。所以, 你說:「好,對這件事我不要反感, 我說出來不是為了要貶低誰。 我說出來也不是要讓大家吵成一團, 或者把氣氛搞得好像 讓人坐立難安。」 當這三個問題的答案 都是「是] —— 我是認真的嗎?我能辯護嗎? 我能周到地說嗎? 就說吧,然後去處理接下來的後續。 再說一次——我說的是減低風險。 我並不是說所有人都能 正確接收到你的意圖,好嗎? 但這是一個自我檢查的方式, 跟自己做確認, 檢查你準備要說的話, 稍微檢查你的語氣, 才不會說出很不周到的話來。 因為有些時候,場面會很激動, 你可能會想以很快的速度說話。 你可以這樣說來幫你慢下來: 好,好,你確實想說這件事, 它是站得住腳的,但, 別逼死人。 所以,這方式對我很重要。 它就像是個檢查點,我用了很多年, 我都會從這個點開始。 大部分的情況都很順利。
WPR: That is part of the tenets you outline. This is part of the "be" part. You have "be, say, do" -- Is that right? -- for tenets.
惠妮:這是你說到的信條的一部分。 是「當」的那部分。 信條是「當、說、做」,對嗎?
LAJ: Yes. Be, say, do.
拉微:是的,當,說,做。 惠妮:當,說,做。
WPR: Be, say, do. And Ahmed, he asks, "How do you recognize professional trouble rather than regular trouble?"
阿邁德問道: 「你怎麼區分職業麻煩 和一般麻煩?」
LAJ: I think it just really comes down to the heart from which you're doing it.
拉薇:我想這就要看
You know, I really do think professional troublemaking, what it means is to disrupt for the greater good. You're not just disrupting because you don't like the person that's sitting across from you. You're disrupting because you know what you're saying or doing is going to be better for somebody else or somebody who looks like you or somebody who doesn't even look like you, right? It is ... it's mission-driven. And it is sometimes brave, because a lot of troublemaking is going to be scary. If it's not scary, it's probably not troublemaking, right? If it does not give you a little bit of, "Uhh ... I'm about to do this," it's probably not troublemaking. Because if it was easy, everybody would do it. If something was easy to say or do, everybody would do it, so it wouldn't be special.
你做這件事的初心了。 我真心相信,職業製造麻煩的真締 在於引發混亂是為了更大的善。 你引發混亂不是因為 坐在對面的人讓你看不順眼。 你引發混亂,是因為你知道 你打算要說/做的事, 對另一個人會更好, 也許是很像你的人, 也許是完全不像你的人。 這是使命導向的。 有時,會需要勇氣, 因為製造很多麻煩是很嚇人的。 如果不嚇人,可能 就不算是製造麻煩, 對吧?如果做這件事不會讓你稍微 「啊……我要做囉」, 那可能就不是製造麻煩。 容易的話大家都會做了。 如果很容易說或很容易做, 大家都會去做,就不特別了。 我想,通常,關於製造麻煩, 需要了解的一點是,
So I think a lot of times about troublemaking the thing to really understand is: it's going to be scary. But what we sometimes will think is that if it's scary, that means I need to not do it. That's not true. That's how we end up not living the lives that we want to live. That's how we end up passing on opportunities that are meant to transform our lives. That's how we end up regretting our silence in rooms. One of the things that I actually ask myself whenever I'm in a room and I feel like I need to say something that feels tough is, I also ask myself, "Will my silence make me proud? This thing that feels like trouble, if I don't do it, will I be proud of myself?" Because ultimately, we are all our own biggest critics. Like, I could disappoint other people and still be able to deal with it. But when I disappoint myself, it's really tough. So I'm always like, "I'm making trouble so I don't disappoint myself. I'm making trouble so my silence is not something that will convict me." Because if I was there, I have to justify what I did in any room. And I want to be able to say, "At least I tried."
它會很嚇人。 但,有時,我們會想, 如果這件事這麼嚇人, 我就不該去做它。 不是這樣的。這樣只會讓我們落得 無法過我們想要過的生活。 這樣會讓我們錯失本來能 改變人生的機會。 這樣會讓我們後悔在當時保持沉默。 當我在房間面,覺得我必須要說出 很難啟齒的意見時, 我還會問自己一個問題, 那就是,我會問自己: 「我的沉默會讓我驕傲嗎? 這件感覺像是麻煩的事, 如果我不去做,我會 對自己感到驕傲嗎?」 因為最終,我們要面對的 都是自己對自己的批評。 比如, 我可以讓其他人失望, 仍然可以過得下去。 但我讓自己失望時,實在很難受。 所以,我總是說:「我要 製造麻煩才不會讓自己失望。 我要製造麻煩, 這樣我才不會因為沉默而後悔。」 因為如果我在場,我的 所做所為都要有正當理由。 我希望我能說: 「至少我嘗試過了。」
WPR: And to this point, Dennis asks, "How do you pick your battles to maintain your energy every day? How do you decide which trouble's worth making?"
惠妮:關於這一點, 丹尼斯想問: 「你怎麼選擇打哪場仗, 才能每天維持能量? 你怎麼決定什麼麻煩值得製造?」
LAJ: Great question. Sometimes, I just ... don't have the energy to make trouble on that day. What that means is, if I am in a meeting, and on that day, I'm wiped, and I'm just like, "I don't have the energy to even be the one that's challenging," on that day, I might be quiet. So I just need more people to feel the obligation to also make the good trouble, so the one person who's always doing it can take a rest.
拉薇:好問題。 有時,我只是…… 那天就是提不起勁去製造麻煩。 意思就是,如果我在開會, 且那天我精疲力竭, 我就會說:「我實在沒有 精力去當挑戰別人的人。」 那天我可能會很安靜。 所以我需要有更多人 覺得自己有義務 也來製造好的麻煩, 讓總是在製造麻煩的人 可以休息一下。
WPR: I mean, it sounds like a big part of this is understanding yourself, right? Is understanding the sorts of things you want to go after. And we have an anonymous question where somebody asks, "I think being a troublemaker also requires us to identify what we truly want. What's your advice on finding out what you want?"
惠妮:這樣聽起來, 很重要的就是要了解你自己, 了解你想要追求什麼。 這裡還有一個匿名者提問: 「我想,扮演製造麻煩者 也需要我們找出自己 真正想要的是什麼。 在這方面,你有什麼建議?」
LAJ: Yeah, I think it's important to know what your core values are and what the thing that you will fight for is, which is why I started the book with a chapter called "Know Thyself." That was important because we have to be doubly clear on who we are, what we hold dear, why we are who we are, because it's what's going to inform what we want to speak up about. It's what's going to inform what drives us to fight. It's what's going to inform the why of it all. It's what pushes you past the fear to say, "I have to do this anyway." So if you're not clear about who you are and what's important to you, you're going to find it hard to know, "What am I actually going to be standing up for?"
拉薇:是,很重要的是要知道 你的核心價值是什麼,以及 你是為什麼奮鬥,這就是為什麼 我的書始於 「認識你自己」這一章。 這很重要,因為 我們必須非常清楚知道 自己是什麼人、珍視什麼、 為什麼我們是現在這樣的人, 因為知道這些能幫助我們 了解我們要為什麼發聲。 了解驅使我們奮鬥的動機。 了解這一切背後的「為什麼」。 這樣你才能克服恐懼,說: 「不論如何,我得做這件事。」 所以,如果你不清楚你是 什麼樣的人、重視什麼, 你就很難知道: 「我到底要為什麼而戰?」 惠妮:你又提到了這些信條, 用來回答這個問題,想法,
WPR: You've gone back to these tenets, then, in answering this question, this idea of being the troublemaker that you want to be. And then what you shared earlier is the saying of the asking the three questions. And then there's a third part of this, the doing element. Could you talk a little bit about what that looks like?
去當你想要「當」的 那種製造麻煩者。 接著你也分享了要「問」三個問題。 再來就是第三部分,「做」。 能否談談「做」是什麼樣子的?
LAJ: Yeah, you know, you can talk a good talk, but if you're not doing work, then what's the point of the talk? Ultimately, we have to put action to our beliefs, to our ideas, to our convictions. So you can be like, yes, you know, Black lives matter. But if you're a boss who hasn't promoted your most senior Black staff, and somebody who just started got promoted over them, then the words that you said did not matter. So the "do" of it all is important; it's an exclamation point, because first you fix your mindset with the "be," then you start putting words to it with the "say," and then now you actually put action to it with the "do." And we cannot have the other two without the do. I think what ends up happening a lot is that people feel really good about what they said, but they haven't made it actually match with their action. So be who you say you are, you know, whether people are watching or not. Be who you say you are in private and in public, in the rooms where it's easy and in the rooms where it's tough and you face opposition. Because a lot of us are walking with privilege that we're not using. So every day you're trying to figure out in what ways can you use your voice, your access, your social currency in service of people who don't have it as much as you do.
拉薇:好的。話可以說得很好聽, 但若光說不做,那幹嘛說? 最終,我們得要去 實踐我們相信的事、 我們的想法、我們的信念。 所以你可以說,是的, 黑人的命也是命,但, 但如果你的老闆沒有提拔 你最資深的黑人員工, 新進人員卻升遷到 比他們還高的位子, 那你說的話也沒意義。 所以「做」的部分很重要, 它是個驚嘆號, 因為,首先,「當」 是要調整心態, 接著開始「說」出相應的話, 接著去「做」,去實際採取行動。 不能只有前兩點而沒有「做」。 有個常見的狀況 就是對自己所說的話感覺良好, 但說的話和行為卻沒有搭配起來。 你說你是怎樣的人, 就要當那樣的人, 不論有沒有人在看都一樣。 在私下和在公共場合都要做到, 在輕鬆的場合要做到, 在困難且面對反對的場合也要做到。 我們很多人都有特權但沒有使用。 所以每天你都想要搞清楚 你能如何運用你的聲音、你的門路、 你的社交身價, 來服務不像你擁有 這麼多這些資源的人。
WPR: So, Anushka, she asks, "As someone who's young and often seen as inexperienced, how do I gain the space to speak and have others realize my worth?"
惠妮:阿努許卡想請問: 「我很年輕且通常被視為經驗不足, 我要如何取得發言空間, 並讓別人了解我的價值?」
LAJ: You won't gain the space to speak. People won't let go of their power that they perceive. Basically, you have to take it. Now, that means you might have to interrupt and say, "Hi. I've been trying to speak for the last 20 minutes. I have a point of view that I'd love to offer up." It is being -- it is taking up space even when people don't give it to you. And it does not mean you're going to be rude. It doesn't mean you're going to be arrogant. It means your voice is necessary, just like everybody else's. In the places where your voice is not given space, sometimes, you either have to take it, or you walk away, knowing that's not the space for you. Because if you have to constantly fight to be heard, that's exhausting. People might look at you with all types of weird projections of what they think you do or don't know. Do not let it shift what you see as your own value. That is also why you cannot attach your value to how other people are treating you or how other people are projecting things onto you. If you do that, you will very quickly be told that you don't fit into spaces. You'll be very, very quickly told that you're not worthwhile or that your ideas are terrible, and then you will absorb it. And then you'll go, like, "Oh, I guess I won't use my voice." You got to fortify yourself and know that your voice is just as important as anybody else's in the room and that you as somebody who's learning, who's growing, who is already in the room, you have already proven yourself to be valuable. And whether or not people see it is not ... it's not your fault, but affirm yourself and make yourself known. You know, take up space, even if they're not giving it to you, don't wait for their permission to speak. Be brilliant whether or not they want you to be.
拉薇:你不能取得發言空間。 人們不會放手他們 感覺自己擁有的權力。 基本上,你得去爭取。 這表示你可能需要 打斷別人,說:「嗨, 剛才二十分鐘我都一直想發言。 我有一個觀點,我想提出來。」 這就是—— 這就是別人不給你 空間時,自己去爭取。 這不表示你很無禮。 也不表示你很傲慢。 這表示你的聲音和其他人的 聲音一樣,都是必要的。 在你沒有發言空間的地方, 有時,你得去爭取, 或者如果你知道沒有 你的空間,那就離開。 因為如果你經常要爭取 才能被聽見,那很累人。 別人可能會用各種 奇怪的投射來看待你, 預期你應該知道或不知道什麼。 別讓這些改變你認定的自身價值。 這也就是為什麼你不能 把你的價值連結到 別人對待你的方式 或者別人對你投射的預期。 如果你那麼做, 很快就會有人告訴你, 你無法融入。 很快就會有人告訴你,你不值得, 或者你的想法很糟糕, 接著你把這些聽進去, 你就會想:「喔, 我想我還是別發聲了。」 你得讓自己振作, 要知道你的聲音和在場所有 其他人的聲音同等重要, 且,身為一個在學習、成長的人, 一個已經在場的人, 你已經證明了自己的價值。 不論別人有沒有看見 你的價值,都不是…… 都不是你的錯, 重要的是你自看見、 肯定你自己的價值。 去爭取空間, 即使沒有人要給你, 也別等他們允許才發言。 成為出色的人,不論他們想不想要。
WPR: Well, thank you so much, Luvvie, I know we're all going to be waiting with bated breath for the news around this book.
惠妮:哇,非常謝謝你,拉薇, 我們都會屏息期待這本書的消息。 拉薇:謝謝邀請我。在我的 旅程中,TED 一直相當重要。
LAJ: Thank you so much for having me. TED has been so significant in my journey.