Chris Anderson: This is such a strange thing. Your software, Linux, is in millions of computers, it probably powers much of the Internet. And I think that there are, like, a billion and a half active Android devices out there. Your software is in every single one of them. It's kind of amazing. You must have some amazing software headquarters driving all this. That's what I thought -- and I was shocked when I saw a picture of it. I mean, this is -- this is the Linux world headquarters.
Kris Anderson: Ovo je tako čudno. Tvoj softver Linuks je u milionima kompjutera, verovatno pokreće veći deo interneta. I verujem da ima skoro milijardu i po aktivnih android uređaja. Tvoj softver je u baš svakom od njih. Nekako je neverovatno. Mora da imaš neverovatno sedište za softver koje pokreće sve ovo. To sam mislio - i šokirao sam se kad sam video njegovu sliku. Mislim, ovo je - ovo je svetsko sedište Linuksa.
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
(Applause)
(Aplauz)
Linus Torvalds: It really doesn't look like much. And I have to say, the most interesting part in this picture, that people mostly react to, is the walking desk. It is the most interesting part in my office and I'm not actually using it anymore. And I think the two things are related.
Linus Torvalds: Zaista ne izgleda bog zna kako. I moram da kažem da je najzanimljiviji deo na slici, na koji ljudi uglavnom reaguju, pokretni sto. To je najzanimljiviji deo moje kancelarije i ja ga zapravo više ne koristim. I mislim da su ove dve stvari povezane.
The way I work is ... I want to not have external stimulation. You can kind of see, on the walls are this light green. I'm told that at mental institutions they use that on the walls.
Način na koji radim... Ne želim da imam spoljne podsticaje. Možete nekako da vidite, zidovi su svetlozeleni. Rečeno mi je da mentalne institucije koriste tu boju na zidovima.
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
It's like a calming color, it's not something that really stimulates you.
To je nekako umirujuća boja, nije nešto što bi vas zaista stimulisalo.
What you can't see is the computer here, you only see the screen, but the main thing I worry about in my computer is -- it doesn't have to be big and powerful, although I like that -- it really has to be completely silent. I know people who work for Google and they have their own small data center at home, and I don't do that. My office is the most boring office you'll ever see. And I sit there alone in the quiet. If the cat comes up, it sits in my lap. And I want to hear the cat purring, not the sound of the fans in the computer.
Ovde ne vidite kompjuter, samo vidite ekran, ali najvažnije mi je kod kompjutera - ne moraju da budu veliki i moćni, iako mi se i to sviđa - zaista moraju da budu potpuno tihi. Znam ljude koji rade za Gugl i imaju svoje male centre za podatke u svojim domovima, a ja to ne radim. Moja kancelarija je najdosadnija kancelarija koju ćete ikada videti. I ja sedim u njoj sam i u tišini. Ako mačka navrati, sedi mi na krilu. A ja želim da slušam mačku kako prede, a ne zvuk ventilatora u kompjuteru.
CA: So this is astonishing, because working this way, you're able to run this vast technology empire -- it is an empire -- so that's an amazing testament to the power of open source.
KA: Ovo je zapanjujuće jer radeći na ovaj način, u stanju si da upravljaš tim ogromnim tehnološkim carstvom - radi se o carstvu - stoga je to neverovatno svedočanstvo snage otvorenog koda.
Tell us how you got to understand open source and how it lead to the development of Linux.
Ispričaj nam kako si savladao otvoreni kod i kako je to dovelo do nastanka Linuksa.
LT: I mean, I still work alone. Really -- I work alone in my house, often in my bathrobe. When a photographer shows up, I dress up, so I have clothes on.
LT: Mislim, i dalje radim sam. Zaista - radim sam u svojoj kući, često u bade-mantilu. Kad fotograf navrati, obučem se, da bih imao odeću na sebi.
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
And that's how I've always worked. I mean, this was how I started Linux, too. I did not start Linux as a collaborative project. I started it as one in a series of many projects I had done at the time for myself, partly because I needed the end result, but even more because I just enjoyed programming. So it was about the end of the journey, which, 25 years later, we still have not reached. But it was really about the fact that I was looking for a project on my own and there was no open source, really, on my radar at all.
I tako sam oduvek radio. Mislim, ovako sam i Linuks stvorio. Nisam stvorio Linuks da bude sarađivački projekat. Stvorio sam ga kao jedan u nizu mnogih projekata koje sam svojevremeno pravio za sebe, delimično zbog krajnjeg rezultata, no i više zato što sam prosto uživao u programiranju. Dakle, radilo se o kraju putovanja, do kog, 25 godina kasnije, još nismo stigli. Ali zaista se radilo o činjenici da sam tragao za samostalnim projektom i otvoreni kod mi zaista uopšte nije bio na umu.
And what happened is ... the project grows and becomes something you want to show off to people. Really, this is more of a, "Wow, look at what I did!" And trust me -- it was not that great back then. I made it publicly available, and it wasn't even open source at that point. At that point it was source that was open, but there was no intention behind using the kind of open-source methodology that we think of today to improve it. It was more like, "Look, I've been working on this for half a year, I'd love to have comments."
A desilo se da je... projekat raste i postane nešto čime želite da se pohvalite pred ljudima. Zaista, ovo je više u fazonu: "Vau, pogledajte šta sam napravio!" I verujte mi - tada to nije bilo toliko sjajno. Učinio sam da bude dostupan javnosti i u tom trenutku nije čak ni bio otvoren kôd. U tom trenutku je bio dostupan kôd, ali nije postojala namera njegovog korišćenja u vidu metodologije otvorenog kôda kakva se danas podrazumeva za unapređivanje. Više je bilo u fazonu: "Pogledajte, na ovome sam radio pola godine, voleo bih da čujem komentare."
And other people approached me. At the University of Helsinki, I had a friend who was one of the open source -- it was called mainly "free software" back then -- and he actually introduced me to the notion that, hey, you can use these open-source licenses that had been around. And I thought about it for a while. I was actually worried about the whole commercial interests coming in. I mean, that's one of the worries I think most people who start out have, is that they worry about somebody taking advantage of their work, right? And I decided, "What the hell?" And --
A drugi su mi prilazili. Na Univerzitetu Helsinki sam imao prijatelja koji je pripadao otvorenom kôdu - tada se uglavnom to zvalo "besplatan softver" - i zapravo mi je predstavio ideju o tome da, hej, možeš da koristiš postojeće licence otvorenih kodova. I ja sam razmišljao na kratko o tome. Zapravo sam brinuo o čitavom komercijalnom interesu u svemu tome. Mislim, to je jedna od briga koju verujem većina ima kad počinje, brinu da će neko da se okoristi njihovim radom. I odlučio sam: "Zašto da ne?" I -
CA: And then at some point, someone contributed some code that you thought, "Wow, that really is interesting, I would not have thought of that. This could actually improve this."
KA: Onda je jednom neko napravio doprinos nekim kodom da si pomislio: "Opa, to je zaista zanimljivo, to mi ne bi palo na pamet. Moglo bi zapravo da unapredi ovo."
LT: It didn't even start by people contributing code, it was more that people started contributing ideas. And just the fact that somebody else takes a look at your project -- and I'm sure it's true of other things, too, but it's definitely true in code -- is that somebody else takes an interest in your code, looks at it enough to actually give you feedback and give you ideas. That was a huge thing for me.
LT: Nije počelo tako što su ljudi doprinosili kodovima, više su ljudi doprinosili idejama. A sama činjenica da neko drugi pogleda vaš projekat - i siguran sam da je tako i kod drugih stvari, ali je definitivno tačno za kôd - to da se neko drugi zainteresuje za vaš kôd, pogleda ga taman toliko da pruži povratnu informaciju i da vam da ideje. To mi je bilo od ogromne važnosti.
I was 21 at the time, so I was young, but I had already programmed for half my life, basically. And every project before that had been completely personal and it was a revelation when people just started commenting, started giving feedback on your code. And even before they started giving code back, that was, I think, one of the big moments where I said, "I love other people!" Don't get me wrong -- I'm actually not a people person.
Tada mi je bila 21 godina, dakle, bio sam mlad, ali već tada sam proveo praktično pola života programirajući. A svaki prethodni projekat je bio potpuno lične prirode i bilo mi je otkrovenje kad su ljudi počeli prosto da komentarišu, da daju povratne informacije o mom kodu. A čak i pre nego što su počeli da mi vraćaju kôd, to je bio, verujem, veliki momenat kad sam rekao: "Volim druge ljude!" Da ne bude zabune - zapravo nisam druželjubiv.
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
I don't really love other people --
Zaista ne volim druge ljude -
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
But I love computers, I love interacting with other people on email, because it kind of gives you that buffer. But I do love other people who comment and get involved in my project. And it made it so much more.
Ali volim kompjutere, volim da kontaktiram s drugim ljudima putem mejla jer to nekako ublažava stvari. Ali volim druge ljude koji komentarišu i uključuju se u moj projekat. Tako je postao nešto značajnije.
CA: So was there a moment when you saw what was being built and it suddenly started taking off, and you thought, "Wait a sec, this actually could be something huge, not just a personal project that I'm getting nice feedback on, but a kind of explosive development in the whole technology world"?
KA: Da li je postojao momenat kad si uvideo šta se stvara i da iznenada zaživljava i pomislio si: "Stani malo, ovo bi zapravo moglo da bude nešto veliko, a ne puki lični projekat za koji dobijam dobre reakcije, već se radi o burnom preokretu u čitavom svetu tehnologije?"
LT: Not really. I mean, the big point for me, really, was not when it was becoming huge, it was when it was becoming little. The big point for me was not being alone and having 10, maybe 100 people being involved -- that was a big point. Then everything else was very gradual. Going from 100 people to a million people is not a big deal -- to me. Well, I mean, maybe it is if you're --
LT: Ne baš, mislim, važan momenat za mene nije bio kad je sve postajalo ogromno, već kad je sve postajalo malo. Velika stvar za mene je što više nisam bio sam već sam imao deset, možda 100 ljudi koji su uključeni - to je bila velika stvar. Sve posle toga je bilo postupno. Prelazak sa 100 ljudi na milion ljudi nije bila velika stvar za mene. Pa, mislim, možda jeste ako vi -
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
If you want to sell your result then it's a huge deal -- don't get me wrong. But if you're interested in the technology and you're interested in the project, the big part was getting the community. Then the community grew gradually. And there's actually not a single point where I went like, "Wow, that just took off!" because it -- I mean -- it took a long time, relatively.
ako želite prodati svoj rezultat, onda jeste strašna stvar - da se razumemo. Ali ako ste zainteresovani za tehnologiju i zainteresovani za projekat, važan deo je pridobijanje zajednice. Onda je zajednica postupno rasla. I zapravo nije postojao momenat kad sam bio u fazonu: "Ala je ovo baš zaživelo!" jer - mislim - trebalo je relativno mnogo vremena.
CA: So all the technologists that I talk to really credit you with massively changing their work. And it's not just Linux, it's this thing called Git, which is this management system for software development. Tell us briefly about that and your role in that.
KA: Dakle, svi tehnolozi s kojim sam razgovarao pripisuju ti da si im mnogo promenio posao. Ne radi se samo o Linuksu, već o nečemu što se zove Git, to je upravljački sistem za razvoj softvera. Ispričaj nam ukratko o tome i o tvojoj ulozi u tome.
LT: So one of the issues we had, and this took a while to start to appear, is when you ... When you grow from having 10 people or 100 people working on a project to having 10,000 people, which -- I mean, right now we're in the situation where just on the kernel, we have 1,000 people involved in every single release and that's every two months, roughly two or three months. Some of those people don't do a lot. There's a lot of people who make small, small changes.
LT: Jedno od pitanja koje smo imali, a trebalo je vremena da počne da iskače, je kad.. kad broj ljudi koji radi na projektu poraste od 10 ili 100 na 10,000 ljudi što - mislim, trenutno imamo situaciju gde samo na jednom softveru imamo uključeno 1,000 ljudi prilikom svakog objavljivanja, a to se dešava na svaka dva meseca, otprilike dva ili tri meseca. Neki ljudi ne doprinose mnogo. Gomila ljudi pravi male, male promene.
But to maintain this, the scale changes how you have to maintain it. And we went through a lot of pain. And there are whole projects that do only source-code maintenance. CVS is the one that used to be the most commonly used, and I hated CVS with a passion and refused to touch it and tried something else that was radical and interesting and everybody else hated.
Ali da biste održavali ovo, razmere menjaju to kako upravljate time. I prošli smo kroz mnogo muka. Imamo čitave projekte koji se jedino bave održavanjem otvorenog kôda. Nekada je najčešće korišćen CVS, a ja sam strasno mrzeo CVS i odbijao sam da ga diram, te sam isprobavao nešto drugo radikalnije i interesantnije što su svi drugi mrzeli.
CA: (Laughs)
KA: (Smeje se)
LT: And we were in this bad spot, where we had thousands of people who wanted to participate, but in many ways, I was the kind of break point, where I could not scale to the point where I could work with thousands of people.
LT: I bili smo u problemu, imali smo na hiljade ljudi koji su želeli da učestvuju, ali na razne načine ja sam bio tačka prekida, gde nisam mogao da savladam da radim sa hiljadama ljudi.
So Git is my second big project, which was only created for me to maintain my first big project. And this is literally how I work. I don't code for -- well, I do code for fun -- but I want to code for something meaningful so every single project I've ever done has been something I needed and --
Stoga je Git moj drugi veliki projekat, koji je napravljen za mene kako bi održavao moj prvi veliki projekat. Ja bukvalno tako radim. Ne kodiram zbog - dobro, kodiram iz zabave - ali želim da kodiram za nešto što ima smisla, stoga je svaki projekat kojim sam se bavio bio nešto što mi je trebalo i -
CA: So really, both Linux and Git kind of arose almost as an unintended consequence of your desire not to have to work with too many people.
KA: Dakle, zaista, i Linuks i Git su na neki način proistekli skoro kao nenamerna posledica tvoje želje da ne radiš s previše ljudi.
LT: Absolutely. Yes.
LT: Apsolutno. Da.
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
CA: That's amazing. LT: Yeah.
KA: To je neverovatno. LT: Da.
(Applause)
(Aplauz)
And yet, you're the man who's transformed technology not just once but twice, and we have to try and understand why it is. You've given us some clues, but ... Here's a picture of you as a kid, with a Rubik's Cube. You mentioned that you've been programming since you were like 10 or 11, half your life.
Pa, ipak, ti si čovek koji je transformisao tehnologiju, ne jednom, već dva puta i moramo da pokušamo da raumemo zašto je to tako. Malo si nam nagovestio, ali... Ovo je slika tebe kao dečaka, s Rubikovom kockom. Pomenuo si da programiraš od svoje 10 ili 11. godine, pola svog života.
Were you this sort of computer genius, you know, übernerd, were you the star at school who could do everything? What were you like as a kid?
Da li si bio tip kompjuterskog genijalca, znaš, nadštreber, jesi li bio školska faca koja može da uradi bilo šta? Kakav si bio kao dete?
LT: Yeah, I think I was the prototypical nerd. I mean, I was ... I was not a people person back then. That's my younger brother. I was clearly more interested in the Rubik's Cube than my younger brother.
LT: Da, mislim da sam bio prototip štrebera. Mislim, bio sam... Nisam ni tad bio druželjubiv. To je moj mlađi brat. Mene očigledno više interesuje Rubikova kocka od mog mlađeg brata.
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
My younger sister, who's not in the picture, when we had family meetings -- and it's not a huge family, but I have, like, a couple of cousins -- she would prep me beforehand. Like, before I stepped into the room she would say, "OK. That's so-and-so ..." Because I was not -- I was a geek. I was into computers, I was into math, I was into physics. I was good at that. I don't think I was particularly exceptional. Apparently, my sister said that my biggest exceptional quality was that I would not let go.
Moja mlađa sestra, koje nema na slici, kad bismo imali porodična okupljanja - a ne radi se o velikoj porodici, ali imam otprilike nekoliko rođaka - ona bi me unapred pripremala. Kao, pre nego bih zakoračio u prostoriju ona bi rekla: "U redu. Tako i tako..." Jer nisam bio - bio sam čudak. Zanimali su me kompjuteri, matematika, fizika. Bio sam dobar u tome. Mislim da nisam bio naročito izuzetan. Očito, moja sestra bi rekla da je moja najizuzetnija vrlina to što neću da se okanim.
CA: OK, so let's go there, because that's interesting. You would not let go. So that's not about being a geek and being smart, that's about being ... stubborn?
KA: U redu, počnimo odatle jer je to zanimljivo. Ne možeš da se okaniš. Dakle ne radi se o tome da si štreber i da si pametan, radi se o tome da si... tvrdoglav?
LT: That's about being stubborn. That's about, like, just starting something and not saying, "OK, I'm done, let's do something else -- Look: shiny!"
LT: Radi se o tvrdoglavosti. Radi se o tome da, kad upravo započnete nešto i ne kažete: "U redu, završio sam, radimo nešto drugo - vidi, nešto svetlucavo!"
And I notice that in many other parts in my life, too. I lived in Silicon Valley for seven years. And I worked for the same company, in Silicon Valley, for the whole time. That is unheard of. That's not how Silicon Valley works. The whole point of Silicon Valley is that people jump between jobs to kind of mix up the pot. And that's not the kind of person I am.
Primetio sam to i u drugim oblastima mog života. Živeo sam sedam godina u Silicijumskoj dolini. I radio sam za istu firmu u Silicijumskoj dolini, sve vreme. To je nezapamćeno. Tako ne funkcioniše Silicijumska dolina. Čitava poenta Silicijumske doline je da ljudi prelaze s posla na posao kako bi se napravio bućkuriš. A ja nisam takva osoba.
CA: But during the actual development of Linux itself, that stubbornness sometimes brought you in conflict with other people. Talk about that a bit. Was that essential to sort of maintain the quality of what was being built? How would you describe what happened?
KA: Međutim tokom razvoja samog Linuksa ta tvrdoglavost te je ponekad dovodila u sukob s drugim ljudima. Pričaj nam malo o tome. Je li to bilo krucijalno za održavanje kvaliteta onoga što ste pravili? Kako bi objasnio šta se desilo?
LT: I don't know if it's essential. Going back to the "I'm not a people person," -- sometimes I'm also ... shall we say, "myopic" when it comes to other people's feelings, and that sometimes makes you say things that hurt other people. And I'm not proud of that.
LT: Ne znam da li je krucijalno. Vratiću se na to da "nisam druželjubiva osoba" - ponekad sam takođe... da li da kažem, "kratkovid" kad su u pitanju osećanja drugih ljudi, a zbog toga ponekad kažete nešto što povređuje druge ljude. I nisam ponosan na to.
(Applause)
(Aplauz)
But, at the same time, it's -- I get people who tell me that I should be nice. And then when I try to explain to them that maybe you're nice, maybe you should be more aggressive, they see that as me being not nice.
Ali istovremeno se radi - razumem ljude koji mi govore da bi trebalo da budem ljubazan. A onda kad pokušam da im objasnim da su oni možda ljubazni, možda bi trebalo da budu agresivniji, oni to vide kao neljubaznost.
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
What I'm trying to say is we are different. I'm not a people person; it's not something I'm particularly proud of, but it's part of me. And one of the things I really like about open source is it really allows different people to work together. We don't have to like each other -- and sometimes we really don't like each other. Really -- I mean, there are very, very heated arguments. But you can, actually, you can find things that -- you don't even agree to disagree, it's just that you're interested in really different things.
Pokušavam da kažem da smo svi mi različiti. Ja nisam druželjubiv; nije to nešto na šta sam naročito ponosan, ali je deo mene. A jedna stvar koja mi se zaista sviđa kod otvorenog kôda je to što zaista omogućuje različitim ljudima da rade zajedno. Ne moramo da se međusobno volimo - a ponekad se zaista ne sviđamo jedni drugima. Zaista - ima tu veoma, veoma žustrih rasprava. Ali možete, zapravo, možete da otkrijete stvari - čak se ni ne slažete da se ne slažete, prosto vas zanimaju potpuno različite stvari.
And coming back to the point where I said earlier that I was afraid of commercial people taking advantage of your work, it turned out, and very quickly turned out, that those commercial people were lovely, lovely people. And they did all the things that I was not at all interested in doing, and they had completely different goals. And they used open source in ways that I just did not want to go. But because it was open source they could do it, and it actually works really beautifully together.
Vratiću se na mesto od ranije gde sam rekao kako sam se plašio da će komercijalisti da se okoriste mojim radom, ispostavilo se, i to se veoma brzo ispostavilo, da su ti komercijalisti dragi, dragi ljudi. I obavili su sve ono što mene nije zanimalo da radim, a imali su potpuno različite ciljeve. I koristili su otvoreni kôd na načine kojim prosto nisam želeo da se bavim. No, kako se radilo o otvorenom kôdu, mogli su, i to zapravo sve zajedno savršeno funkcioniše.
And I actually think it works the same way. You need to have the people-people, the communicators, the warm and friendly people who like --
I zapravo mislim da isto funkcioniše. Morate da imate druželjubive ljude, komunikatore, topla i prijateljska lica koji su u fazonu -
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
really want to hug you and get you into the community. But that's not everybody. And that's not me. I care about the technology. There are people who care about the UI. I can't do UI to save my life. I mean, if I was stranded on an island and the only way to get off that island was the make a pretty UI, I'd die there.
da zaista žele da vas zagrle i da vas uvedu u zajednicu. Ali svi nisu takvi. Ja nisam takav. Mene interesuje tehnologija. Neke ljude zanima korisnički interfejs. Ne bih mogao ni za spas života da napravim korisnički interfejs. Mislim, kad bih se nasukao na pusto ostrvo i jedini način da odem s ostrva je da napravim lep korisnički interfejs, umro bih tamo.
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
So there's different kinds of people, and I'm not making excuses, I'm trying to explain.
Dakle, postoje razni ljudi; i ne pravdam se, pokušavam da objasnim.
CA: Now, when we talked last week, you talked about some other trait that you have, which I found really interesting. It's this idea called taste.
KA: Kad smo pričali prošle sedmice, govorio si o još jednoj osobini koju poseduješ, a koja je meni zaista zanimljiva. Ideja koja se naziva ukusom.
And I've just got a couple of images here. I think this is an example of not particularly good taste in code, and this one is better taste, which one can immediately see. What is the difference between these two?
I imam ovde nekoliko slika. Verujem da je ovo primer ne naročito dobrog ukusa u kodiranju, a ovaj je s više ukusa, to svako odmah primeti. U čemu je razlika među njima?
LT: So this is -- How many people here actually have coded?
LT: Dakle, ovo je - Koliko se vas ovde bavilo kodiranjem?
CA: Oh my goodness.
KA: O, gospode.
LT: So I guarantee you, everybody who raised their hand, they have done what's called a singly-linked list. And it's taught -- This, the first not very good taste approach, is basically how it's taught to be done when you start out coding. And you don't have to understand the code.
LT: Pa, garantujem vam, svi koji su podigli ruke, radili su ono što se naziva jednostruko povezanim listama. To se uči - Ovo, prvo nije pristup naročito dobrog ukusa, u suštini tako vas uče kad počnete da kodirate. I ne morate da razumete kôd.
The most interesting part to me is the last if statement. Because what happens in a singly-linked list -- this is trying to remove an existing entry from a list -- and there's a difference between if it's the first entry or whether it's an entry in the middle. Because if it's the first entry, you have to change the pointer to the first entry. If it's in the middle, you have to change the pointer of a previous entry. So they're two completely different cases.
Najzanimljiviji deo za mene je poslednji iskaz "ako". Jer u jednostruko povezanim listama se dešava - ovo pokušava da ukloni postojeći unos sa liste - a postoji razlika u tome da li se radi o prvom unosu ili se radi o unosu u sredini. Jer ako se radi o prvom unosu, morate da promenite pokazivač na prvi unos. Ako je u sredini, morate da promenite pokazivač kod prethodnog unosa. Radi se o dva potpuno različita slučaja.
CA: And that's better.
KA: A taj je bolji.
LT: And this is better. It does not have the if statement. And it doesn't really matter -- I don't want you understand why it doesn't have the if statement, but I want you to understand that sometimes you can see a problem in a different way and rewrite it so that a special case goes away and becomes the normal case. And that's good code. But this is simple code. This is CS 101. This is not important -- although, details are important.
LT: Ovaj je bolji. Nema "ako" iskaz. I nije zaista bitno - ne želim da shvatite zašto nema "ako" iskaz, ali želim da razumete da ponekad možete da posmatrate problem drugačije i da ga prepravite kako bi nestao specijalan slučaj i postao običan slučaj. A to je dobar kôd. Ali ovo je prost kôd. Ovo su osnove kompjuterskog softvera. Ovo nije važno - iako su detalji važni.
To me, the sign of people I really want to work with is that they have good taste, which is how ... I sent you this stupid example that is not relevant because it's too small. Good taste is much bigger than this. Good taste is about really seeing the big patterns and kind of instinctively knowing what's the right way to do things.
Za mene, znak da zaista želim da radim s ljudima je kad imaju dobar ukus, na taj način... Poslao sam vam ovaj glupi primer koji nije relevantan jer je suviše kratak. Dobar ukus je mnogo više od ovoga. Dobar ukus je kad zaista vidite velike obrasce i kad instinktivno znate koji je pravi način da radite nešto.
CA: OK, so we're putting the pieces together here now. You have taste, in a way that's meaningful to software people. You're --
KA: U redu, trenutno sklapamo kockice. Ti imaš ukusa, na način koji je značajan programerima softvera. Ti si -
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
LT: I think it was meaningful to some people here.
LT: Mislim da je bilo značajno za neke ljude ovde.
CA: You're a very smart computer coder, and you're hellish stubborn. But there must be something else. I mean, you've changed the future. You must have the ability of these grand visions of the future. You're a visionary, right?
KA: Ti si veoma pametan programer i prokleto si tvrdoglav. Međutim, mora da ima još nešto. Mislim, promenio si budućnost. Mora da imaš moć za te velike vizije budućnosti. Ti si vizionar, zar ne?
LT: I've actually felt slightly uncomfortable at TED for the last two days, because there's a lot of vision going on, right? And I am not a visionary. I do not have a five-year plan. I'm an engineer. And I think it's really -- I mean -- I'm perfectly happy with all the people who are walking around and just staring at the clouds and looking at the stars and saying, "I want to go there." But I'm looking at the ground, and I want to fix the pothole that's right in front of me before I fall in. This is the kind of person I am.
LT: Zapravo osećam blagu neprijatnost na TED-u u protekla dva dana jer ovde imamo mnogo vizija, zar ne? A ja nisam vizionar. Nemam petogodišnji plan. Ja sam inženjer. I mislim da je to zaista - mislim - uopšte mi ne smetaju svi ti ljudi koji šetaju okolo i prosto zure u oblake i gledaju u zvezde i govore: "Želim da stignem tamo." Ali ja gledam u zemlju i želim da popravim provaliju koja je ispred mene pre nego što u nju upadnem. Takva sam osoba.
(Cheers)
(Klicanje)
(Applause)
(Aplauz)
CA: So you spoke to me last week about these two guys. Who are they and how do you relate to them?
KA: Govorio si mi prošle nedelje o ova dva čoveka. Ko su oni i kako se poistovećuješ s njima?
LT: Well, so this is kind of cliché in technology, the whole Tesla versus Edison, where Tesla is seen as the visionary scientist and crazy idea man. And people love Tesla. I mean, there are people who name their companies after him.
LT: Pa, ovo je nekakav tehnološki kliše, sva ta fama Tesla protiv Edisona, gde Teslu vide kao vizionara naučnika i čoveka s ludim idejama. A ljudi vole Teslu. Mislim, neki ljudi nazivaju firme po njemu.
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
The other person there is Edison, who is actually often vilified for being kind of pedestrian and is -- I mean, his most famous quote is, "Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration." And I'm in the Edison camp, even if people don't always like him. Because if you actually compare the two, Tesla has kind of this mind grab these days, but who actually changed the world? Edison may not have been a nice person, he did a lot of things -- he was maybe not so intellectual, not so visionary. But I think I'm more of an Edison than a Tesla.
Druga osoba ovde je Edison, koga često kleveću da je bio nekako neinspirativan i jeste - mislim, njegov najčuveniji citat je: "Genije je jedan procenat inspiracija, a 99 procenata vredan rad." A ja sam u Edisonovom kampu, čak iako ga ljudi nužno ne vole. Jer ako zapravo uporedite ovu dvojicu, Tesla nam zaokuplja umove ovih dana, ali ko je zapravo promenio svet? Edison možda nije bio draga osoba, uradio je mnogo toga - možda nije bio toliko inteligentan, nije bio naročit vizionar. Ali mislim da sam sličniji Edisonu nego Tesli.
CA: So our theme at TED this week is dreams -- big, bold, audacious dreams. You're really the antidote to that.
KA: Dakle, naša ovonedeljna tema na TED-u su snovi - veliki, hrabri, odvažni snovi. Ti si zaista suprotnost tome.
LT: I'm trying to dial it down a bit, yes.
LT: Pokušavam malo da spustim loptu, da.
CA: That's good.
KA: To je dobro.
(Laughter) We embrace you, we embrace you.
(Smeh) Mi te prihvatamo, prihvatamo te.
Companies like Google and many others have made, arguably, like, billions of dollars out of your software. Does that piss you off?
Firme, poput Gugla i mnogih drugih, su zaradile verovatno na milijarde dolara na tvom softveru. Da li te to nervira?
LT: No. No, it doesn't piss me off for several reasons. And one of them is, I'm doing fine. I'm really doing fine.
LT: Ne. Ne nervira me iz nekoliko razloga. A jedan od njih je da mi dobro ide. Zaista mi dobro ide.
But the other reason is -- I mean, without doing the whole open source and really letting go thing, Linux would never have been what it is. And it's brought experiences I don't really enjoy, public talking, but at the same time, this is an experience. Trust me. So there's a lot of things going on that make me a very happy man and thinking I did the right choices.
Ali drugi razlog je - mislim, da se nisam bavio otvorenim kodom i zaista poklanjanjem, Linuks nikad ne bi postao ono što jeste. I donelo je iskustva, ja zaista ne uživam da govorim u javnosti, ali istovremeno je i ovo iskustvo. Verujte mi. Dakle, mnogo toga se dešava što me usrećuje i uverava da sam napravio prave izbore.
CA: Is the open source idea -- this is, I think we'll end here -- is the open source idea fully realized now in the world, or is there more that it could go, are there more things that it could do?
KA: Da li je ideja o otvorenom kôdu - ovo je, mislim da ovim završavamo - da li je ideja o otvorenom kôdu u potpunosti realizovana trenutno u svetu ili ima još mesta za njenu upotrebu, ima li još nešto što bi mogla da postigne?
LT: So, I'm of two minds there. I think one reason open source works so well in code is that at the end of the day, code tends to be somewhat black and white. There's often a fairly good way to decide, this is done correctly and this is not done well. Code either works or it doesn't, which means that there's less room for arguments. And we have arguments despite this, right? In many other areas -- I mean, people have talked about open politics and things like that -- and it's really hard sometimes to say that, yes, you can apply the same principles in some other areas just because the black and white turns into not just gray, but different colors.
LT: Ovde se dvoumim. Mislim da je razlog zašto otvoreni kôd dobro funkcioniše u kodiranju to što kad se sve svede, kôd je nekako crno-beo. Često imate poprilično dobar način da odlučite šta je urađeno tačno, a šta nije. Kôd ili funkcioniše ili ne funkcioniše, što znači da ima manje prostora za rasprave. A mi ipak raspravljamo, uprkos tome, zar ne? U mnogim drugim oblastima - mislim, ljudi su govorili o otvorenoj politici i slično - i zaista je teško ponekad reći da, da, možete primeniti iste principe u nekim drugim oblastima samo zato što se crno i belo ne pretvaraju prosto u sivo, već u različite boje.
So, obviously open source in science is making a comeback. Science was there first. But then science ended up being pretty closed, with very expensive journals and some of that going on. And open source is making a comeback in science, with things like arXiv and open journals. Wikipedia changed the world, too. So there are other examples, I'm sure there are more to come.
Pa, očigledno se otvoreno deljenje vraća u nauku. U nauci je i nastalo. Ali potom je nauka postala prilično zatvorena, sa veoma skupim časopisima i sličnim pojavama. A otvoreno deljenje se vraća u nauku, sa pojavama poput arXiv-a i otvorenih časopisa. I Vikipedija je promenila svet. Pa ima tu i drugih primera i siguran sam da će ih biti još.
CA: But you're not a visionary, and so it's not up to you to name them.
KA: Ali ti nisi vizionar, pa nije na tebi da ih imenuješ.
LT: No.
LT: Ne.
(Laughter)
(Smeh)
It's up to you guys to make them, right?
Ljudi, na vama je da ih ostvarite, zar ne?
CA: Exactly.
KA: Tačno tako.
Linus Torvalds, thank you for Linux, thank you for the Internet, thank you for all those Android phones.
Linuse Torvaldse, hvala ti za Linuks, hvala ti za internet, hvala ti za sve telefone s androidom.
Thank you for coming here to TED and revealing so much of yourself.
Hvala ti što si došao na TED i otkrio toliko o sebi.
LT: Thank you.
LT: Hvala vama.
(Applause)
(Aplauz)