Charlie Rose: So Larry sent me an email and he basically said, we've got to make sure that we don't seem like we're a couple of middle-aged boring men. I said, I'm flattered by that -- (Laughter) — because I'm a bit older, and he has a bit more net worth than I do.
查理.羅斯:賴瑞發了封信給我, 基本上他就是說, 我們得確保我們看起來不能像 兩個乏味的中年人。 我回他說,你這麼講我深感榮幸── (笑聲)── 因為我年紀大一點, 而他的淨資產又比我多一點。
Larry Page: Well, thank you.
賴瑞.佩吉:呵,謝謝。
CR: So we'll have a conversation about the Internet, and we'll have a conversation Google, and we'll have a conversation about search and privacy, and also about your philosophy and a sense of how you've connected the dots and how this journey that began some time ago has such interesting prospects. Mainly we want to talk about the future. So my first question: Where is Google and where is it going? LP: Well, this is something we think about a lot, and our mission we defined a long time ago is to organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful. And people always say, is that really what you guys are still doing? And I always kind of think about that myself, and I'm not quite sure. But actually, when I think about search, it's such a deep thing for all of us, to really understand what you want, to understand the world's information, and we're still very much in the early stages of that, which is totally crazy. We've been at it for 15 years already, but it's not at all done.
查理.羅斯:我們會聊聊網際網路, 還會聊聊 Google, 聊聊搜尋, 和隱私, 還有你的處世哲學, 以及你如何把這 一切聯接起來的, 以及多年前開始的 這個旅程, 具有怎樣的有趣前景。 我們主要來討論一下未來。 那我的第一個問題是:Google 身在何處, 它將前往何方? 賴瑞.佩吉: 好的,這個問題我們思考過很多, 我們很早以前所定下的目標 就是將全世界的資訊組織起來 讓全世界的人們可以 獲得它並且從中受益。 人們總會問, 你們還在做這樣的事情嗎? 我自己也常思考這問題, 我還不是很確定。 但事實上,說到搜尋, 對所有人來說都 是個深奧的問題, 要真正理解你想要的是什麼, 要理解這個世界的資訊, 我們還處於非常早期的階段, 這真的很誇張。 我們在這個領域裡已有十五年, 卻離實現它還差得很遠。
CR: When it's done, how will it be?
查理.羅斯: 當實現時,它會是什麼樣?
LP: Well, I guess, in thinking about where we're going -- you know, why is it not done? -- a lot of it is just computing's kind of a mess. You know, your computer doesn't know where you are, it doesn't know what you're doing, it doesn't know what you know, and a lot we've been trying to do recently is just make your devices work, make them understand your context. Google Now, you know, knows where you are, knows what you may need. So really having computing work and understand you and understand that information, we really haven't done that yet. It's still very, very clunky.
賴瑞.佩吉:我猜, 想想我們的前進方向── 像是,為什麼還沒有完成?── 大部分原因是 數據計算還是一團亂。 電腦不知道你在哪、 不知道你在做什麼, 也不知道你懂什麼。 近年來我們花了很多的精力, 只為了讓你的設備運作起來, 讓它理解你的大致意圖。 Google Now 知道你人在哪, 知道你可能需要什麼。 所以讓電腦真正地 運作起來、理解你 並且理解這些資訊, 我們還沒真的做到那步。 它仍非常地不成熟。
CR: Tell me, when you look at what Google is doing, where does Deep Mind fit?
查理.羅斯: 對於 Google 正在做的事, DeepMind 扮演什麼角色?
LP: Yeah, so Deep Mind is a company we just acquired recently. It's in the U.K. First, let me tell you the way we got there, which was looking at search and really understanding, trying to understand everything, and also make the computers not clunky and really understand you -- like, voice was really important. So what's the state of the art on speech recognition? It's not very good. It doesn't really understand you. So we started doing machine learning research to improve that. That helped a lot. And we started just looking at things like YouTube. Can we understand YouTube? But we actually ran machine learning on YouTube and it discovered cats, just by itself. Now, that's an important concept. And we realized there's really something here. If we can learn what cats are, that must be really important. So I think Deep Mind, what's really amazing about Deep Mind is that it can actually -- they're learning things in this unsupervised way. They started with video games, and really just, maybe I can show the video, just playing video games, and learning how to do that automatically.
賴瑞.佩吉:DeepMind 這家公司, 我們最近才併購進來。 它在英國。 首先,我講一下我們當時的狀況, 當時我們焦點放在搜尋, 並真正地理解, 試圖理解一切, 讓電腦不那麼遲鈍, 並且真正地理解你── 比如,語音非常重要。 最先進的語音辨識技術是怎樣的? 它不是很好, 它並不能真正地理解你。 於是我們研究機器學習, 以改進它, 結果成效很大。 然後我們開始轉向 YouTube 之類的東西。 我們可以理解 YouTube 嗎? 我們實際在 YouTube 上 進行機器學習, 它找到了貓,完全靠自己。 這是個重要的概念。 我們意識到,其中有著深義。 如果我們能學習貓是什麼, 那一定是非常重要的。 所以我認為 DeepMind, 它的真正神奇之處 在於它真的可以 自主學習,無需人的干預。 他們從遊戲開始, 真的只是 ──也許我可以播一下那影片── 只是玩遊戲, 並且學習怎樣自動地玩。
CR: Take a look at the video games and how machines are coming to be able to do some remarkable things.
查理.羅斯:看一下這遊戲, 機器是如何開始有能力 做一些驚人的事情。
LP: The amazing thing about this is this is, I mean, obviously, these are old games, but the system just sees what you see, the pixels, and it has the controls and it has the score, and it's learned to play all of these games, same program. It's learned to play all of these games with superhuman performance. We've not been able to do things like this with computers before. And maybe I'll just narrate this one quickly. This is boxing, and it figures out it can sort of pin the opponent down. The computer's on the left, and it's just racking up points. So imagine if this kind of intelligence were thrown at your schedule, or your information needs, or things like that. We're really just at the beginning of that, and that's what I'm really excited about.
賴瑞.佩吉:這驚人之處在於, 我覺得很明顯, 這些都是老遊戲, 但是系統和你看到的 完全一樣,就是像素, 並且它能控制、能得分, 還有它學會了所有這些遊戲, 同一個程式。 它學會了所有這些遊戲, 而且表現是超人級的。 在過去,電腦是做不到這些事的。 我要簡單說明一下, 這是拳擊遊戲,系統算出 如何制伏對手。 左邊的是電腦, 它就是要贏得高分。 所以設想一下,如果這樣的 人工智慧能用在你的排程、 解決你的訊息需求, 或類似的事情。 機器學習其實還在起步階段, 而這讓我感到無比興奮。 查理.羅斯: 當你看到 DeepMind 和拳擊遊戲
CR: When you look at all that's taken place with Deep Mind and the boxing, also a part of where we're going is artificial intelligence. Where are we, when you look at that?
上所發生的這一切, 加上人工智慧 也是我們前進的方向之一。 從這些來看,我們走到哪步了? 賴瑞.佩吉:我認為對於我來說,
LP: Well, I think for me, this is kind of one of the most exciting things I've seen in a long time. The guy who started this company, Demis, has a neuroscience and a computer science background. He went back to school to get his Ph.D. to study the brain. And so I think we're seeing a lot of exciting work going on that sort of crosses computer science and neuroscience in terms of really understanding what it takes to make something smart and do really interesting things.
這是我看到的 最令人興奮的事情之一, 在很長時間以來。 創立這家公司的德米斯 擁有神經學和電腦科學的背景。 他回學校攻讀博士, 課題是研究大腦。 我們看到許多激勵人心的成果, 出現在跨神經學與 電腦科學的領域。 關於如何真正去理解, 去打造出有智慧的機器, 來做一些有趣的事。 查理.羅斯: 我們現在處於什麼階段呢?
CR: But where's the level of it now? And how fast do you think we are moving?
你覺得我們的進展速度如何? 賴瑞.佩吉: 這是當前達到的最高水準,
LP: Well, this is the state of the art right now, understanding cats on YouTube and things like that, improving voice recognition. We used a lot of machine learning to improve things incrementally, but I think for me, this example's really exciting, because it's one program that can do a lot of different things.
理解 YouTube 上的貓 還有類似的事情, 加強語音辨識技術。 我們使用了許多機器學習 來逐步改進各種問題, 我個人認為這例子非常令人興奮, 因為它只是一個程式 卻可以做許多不同事情。 查理.羅斯: 我不知道這樣做合不合適,
CR: I don't know if we can do this, but we've got the image of the cat. It would be wonderful to see this. This is how machines looked at cats and what they came up with. Can we see that image?
我這兒有一張貓的圖片, 這張圖意義非凡。 這就是機器看貓, 反映出的形象。 可以看一下圖片嗎? 賴瑞.佩吉:好的。 查理.羅斯:這就是了。你能看到貓嗎?
LP: Yeah. CR: There it is. Can you see the cat? Designed by machines, seen by machines.
機器自己設計、看到了它。 賴瑞.佩吉:是的。
LP: That's right. So this is learned from just watching YouTube. And there's no training, no notion of a cat, but this concept of a cat is something important that you would understand, and now that the machines can kind of understand. Maybe just finishing also on the search part, it started with search, really understanding people's context and their information. I did have a video I wanted to show quickly on that that we actually found.
這是僅僅透過觀看 YouTube 學到的。 沒有事先訓練過, 沒有貓的概念, 但這個貓的概念挺重要的, 我們都知道什麼是貓, 而現在機器也有了一定理解。 也許它已經完成了搜尋這部分, 它從搜尋開始,去理解人的意圖 和他們的資訊。 我有一個影片, 我想快速展示一下 我發現了什麼。 (影片) 「肯亞,索伊」
(Video) ["Soy, Kenya"]
Zack Matere: Not long ago, I planted a crop of potatoes. Then suddenly they started dying one after the other. I checked out the books and they didn't tell me much. So, I went and I did a search. ["Zack Matere, Farmer"] Potato diseases. One of the websites told me that ants could be the problem. It said, sprinkle wood ash over the plants. Then after a few days the ants disappeared. I got excited about the Internet. I have this friend who really would like to expand his business. So I went with him to the cyber cafe and we checked out several sites. When I met him next, he was going to put a windmill at the local school. I felt proud because something that wasn't there before was suddenly there. I realized that not everybody can be able to access what I was able to access. I thought that I need to have an Internet that my grandmother can use. So I thought about a notice board. A simple wooden notice board. When I get information on my phone, I'm able to post the information on the notice board. So it's basically like a computer. I use the Internet to help people. I think I am searching for a better life for me and my neighbors. So many people have access to information, but there's no follow-up to that. I think the follow-up to that is our knowledge. When people have the knowledge, they can find solutions without having to helped out. Information is powerful, but it is how we use it that will define us.
查克.馬泰爾:不久之前, 我種了一片馬鈴薯, 然後突然地, 不斷有馬鈴薯死掉。 我查了書,但沒發現多少資訊, 所以我去搜尋了一下。 「查克.馬泰爾,農民」 馬鈴薯、疾病。 有一個網站告訴我 問題可能是螞蟻。 它說,在作物上撒一些木灰。 幾天之後螞蟻消失了。 網路讓我非常興奮。 我有個朋友, 他很想擴展生意, 於是我和他一起去了網咖, 我們查了一些網站。 再次見到他時, 他準備在當地學校建一座風車。 我感到很驕傲, 因為一個以前沒有的東西, 就這樣突然出現了。 我意識到, 並不是所有人都能夠用 我能用的東西。 我想我需要有種網路, 讓我奶奶也會用它。 所以我想到了一個公告欄, 一個簡單的木製公告欄。 我從手機上得到資訊的時候, 我就可以把它 公布在公告欄上。 所以,它有點像部電腦, 我用網際網路來幫助別人。 我認為我是在尋找 一個更好的生活, 為我,也為我的鄰居們。 這樣許多人都可以得到資訊, 但是在這之後就沒有後續了。 我認為「後續」就是我們的知識。 人們有了知識, 他們就能找到方法, 而不需要找人幫忙。 資訊的力量很強大, 但是如何使用資訊 才決定我們的未來。
(Applause)
(掌聲)
LP: Now, the amazing thing about that video, actually, was we just read about it in the news, and we found this gentlemen, and made that little clip.
賴瑞.佩吉: 這段影片的精彩之處在於, 我們是先從新聞看到, 我們才找這位先生, 錄了這段影片。
CR: When I talk to people about you, they say to me, people who know you well, say, Larry wants to change the world, and he believes technology can show the way. And that means access to the Internet. It has to do with languages. It also means how people can get access and do things that will affect their community, and this is an example. LP: Yeah, that's right, and I think for me, I have been focusing on access more, if we're talking about the future. We recently released this Loon Project which is using balloons to do it. It sounds totally crazy. We can show the video here. Actually, two out of three people in the world don't have good Internet access now. We actually think this can really help people sort of cost-efficiently.
查理.羅斯:當我和別人說起你, 這些很了解你的人,他們對我說, 賴瑞想要改變世界, 他相信科技可以指引方向, 而這需要有網路。 這也和語言有關。 這也意味著, 人們要如何存取網路 來做一些事情, 會影響到他所在的群體。 這就是一個例子。 賴瑞.佩吉:是的,對我來說, 我致力於更易用的網路, 如果我們說的是未來的話。 我們最近推出了 Loon 專案, 用熱氣球來存取網路, 聽起來很瘋狂。 我們可以在這裡播一下影片。 世界上三分之二的人 沒好的網路可用。 我們認為這個專案可以幫助人們, 並且費用低廉。
CR: It's a balloon. LP: Yeah, get access to the Internet.
查理.羅斯:這是一個氣球。 賴瑞.佩吉:是的,可以連網。
CR: And why does this balloon give you access to the Internet? Because there was some interesting things you had to do to figure out how to make balloons possible, they didn't have to be tethered.
查理.羅斯:為什麼可以透過這氣球連網? 因為你得想出一些有趣的辦法, 來讓氣球連網成為可能, 還不用給氣球插上線。 賴瑞.佩吉: 是的,這是個關於創新的好例子。
LP: Yeah, and this is a good example of innovation. Like, we've been thinking about this idea for five years or more before we started working on it, but it was just really, how do we get access points up high, cheaply? You normally have to use satellites and it takes a long time to launch them. But you saw there how easy it is to launch a balloon and get it up, and actually again, it's the power of the Internet, I did a search on it, and I found, 30, 40 years ago, someone had put up a balloon and it had gone around the Earth multiple times. And I thought, why can't we do that today? And that's how this project got going.
在我們在著手之前 就已經在思考這想法了, 有五年甚至更久, 但問題在於, 如何才能便宜地 在天上設一個存取點? 傳統得用人造衛星, 但發射需要很長時間。 然後我們就想到,放個氣球到天上, 是多麼簡單的事, 這再次說明網路的力量。 我確實搜尋過這件事, 我發現三四十年前 就有人放出過一個氣球, 而這個氣球繞著地球轉了不少圈。 然後我想,我們如今 為何不這麼做呢? 這個專案就這樣開始了。 查理.羅斯: 但是你受風的影響大嗎?
CR: But are you at the mercy of the wind?
賴瑞.佩吉:是的,但實際上,
LP: Yeah, but it turns out, we did some weather simulations which probably hadn't really been done before, and if you control the altitude of the balloons, which you can do by pumping air into them and other ways, you can actually control roughly where they go, and so I think we can build a worldwide mesh of these balloons that can cover the whole planet.
我們做了些氣象模擬, 很可能以前從來沒人做過, 如果控制氣球的高度, 可以通過充氣或別的方法實現, 就可以大致控制氣球的動向, 因此,我想我們可以 建造一個世界性網路, 用這些氣球來覆蓋全球。 查理.羅斯: 在我們聊未來和運輸之前
CR: Before I talk about the future and transportation, where you've been a nerd for a while, and this fascination you have with transportation and automated cars and bicycles, let me talk a bit about what's been the subject here earlier with Edward Snowden. It is security and privacy. You have to have been thinking about that.
──這兩樣你已浸淫了一段時間。 你對運輸、自動駕駛汽車和 自行車研究很深── 我先提一下有關 愛德華.史諾登的話題, 稍早前也是 TED 主題, 事關安全與隱私。 你一定一直有在思考這問題。 賴瑞.佩吉:是的,毫無疑問。
LP: Yeah, absolutely. I saw the picture of Sergey with Edward Snowden yesterday. Some of you may have seen it. But I think, for me, I guess, privacy and security are a really important thing. We think about it in terms of both things, and I think you can't have privacy without security, so let me just talk about security first, because you asked about Snowden and all of that, and then I'll say a little bit about privacy. I think for me, it's tremendously disappointing that the government secretly did all this stuff and didn't tell us. I don't think we can have a democracy if we're having to protect you and our users from the government for stuff that we've never had a conversation about. And I don't mean we have to know what the particular terrorist attack is they're worried about protecting us from, but we do need to know what the parameters of it is, what kind of surveillance the government's going to do and how and why, and I think we haven't had that conversation. So I think the government's actually done itself a tremendous disservice by doing all that in secret.
昨天我看到了謝爾蓋和 愛德華.史諾登的照片。 在座的有些人應該也看到了。 但我個人覺得, 隱私和安全是非常重要的事情。 我們在這兩方面都有所思考, 我認為沒有安全就不存在隱私, 所以我先談談安全, 因為你問到了有關史諾登的事情, 然後我會再講一點隱私。 我個人感到極度失望, 政府偷偷做了這些事 沒有告訴我們。 我將不再擁有民主, 如果我們被迫由政府手中, 保護大家 不受未討論的事情侵害的話。 我倒不是說我們必須知道 政府所擔心的具體 恐怖襲擊是什麼, 而是我們需要知道 在什麼樣的情況下, 政府要進行何種監控, 打算怎麼做,為什麼這樣做, 我認為我們並沒有 討論過這些問題。 我認為政府偷做這些事情, 這種失職造成了嚴重的傷害。
CR: Never coming to Google to ask for anything.
查理.羅斯: 絕不要找 Google 要任何東西? 賴瑞.佩吉:不是 Google,而是大眾。
LP: Not Google, but the public. I think we need to have a debate about that, or we can't have a functioning democracy. It's just not possible. So I'm sad that Google's in the position of protecting you and our users from the government doing secret thing that nobody knows about. It doesn't make any sense.
我認為我們需要討論一下這個問題, 否則我們的民主就名不符實。 這不可能稱為民主。 對於 Google 處在一個, 要防範政府偷雞摸狗的位置, 我覺得很可悲。 這毫無道理。
CR: Yeah. And then there's a privacy side of it.
查理.羅斯:沒錯,然後還有隱私方面的問題。
LP: Yes. The privacy side, I think it's -- the world is changing. You carry a phone. It knows where you are. There's so much more information about you, and that's an important thing, and it makes sense why people are asking difficult questions. We spend a lot of time thinking about this and what the issues are. I'm a little bit -- I think the main thing that we need to do is just provide people choice, show them what data's being collected -- search history, location data. We're excited about incognito mode in Chrome, and doing that in more ways, just giving people more choice and more awareness of what's going on. I also think it's very easy. What I'm worried is that we throw out the baby with the bathwater. And I look at, on your show, actually, I kind of lost my voice, and I haven't gotten it back. I'm hoping that by talking to you I'm going to get it back.
賴瑞.佩吉:是的,還有隱私面, 我認為,世界在變。 你帶著手機,它知道你在哪裡。 還有許多你的個人資訊, 這是件非常重要的事情, 人們也合理地提出一些, 難以回答的問題。 我們花了很多時間去思考這一點, 以及問題所在。 我有一點…… 我認為我們需要做的事情裡最主要的一點, 就是讓人們可以選擇, 告訴他們什麼數據會被收集── 搜尋記錄、位置資訊。 我們對於 Chrome 瀏覽器的 無痕模式感到很興奮, 將它應用到更多的方面, 也就是給予人們更多選擇, 讓他們更完整地 認識到發生了什麼事。 我也認為這非常簡單。 我所擔心的是, 我們會因噎廢食。 我看到,在你的節目上, 我嗓子有點啞了, 我還沒有恢復。 我希望和你聊聊 能恢復得快一點。
CR: If I could do anything, I would do that.
查理.羅斯: 如果我能幫上什麼忙,我一定會幫。
LP: All right. So get out your voodoo doll and whatever you need to do. But I think, you know what, I look at that, I made that public, and I got all this information. We got a survey done on medical conditions with people who have similar issues, and I look at medical records, and I say, wouldn't it be amazing if everyone's medical records were available anonymously to research doctors? And when someone accesses your medical record, a research doctor, they could see, you could see which doctor accessed it and why, and you could maybe learn about what conditions you have. I think if we just did that, we'd save 100,000 lives this year.
賴瑞.佩吉:那好,拿出你的巫毒娃娃, 該做什麼儘管做。 但是我認為,我看著這件事, 我把它公開化了, 我得到很多資訊。 我做了個關於身體狀況的調查, 調查對象都有些類似的問題。 我一邊看著醫療記錄,一邊說, 如果每個人的醫療記錄 都可以匿名地提供給 做研究的醫生, 豈不是很好? 當有人查看你的醫療記錄時, 一個做研究的醫生, 他們可以看到,你也可以看到 是哪位醫生看了,為什麼, 然後你也許可以了解到 你的狀況如何。 我想我們若做到這點, 一年就可以多救十萬人。
CR: Absolutely. Let me go — (Applause)
查理.羅斯:毫無疑問。讓我…… (掌聲)
LP: So I guess I'm just very worried that with Internet privacy, we're doing the same thing we're doing with medical records, is we're throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and we're not really thinking about the tremendous good that can come from people sharing information with the right people in the right ways.
賴瑞.佩吉:我想我就是非常擔心 網路隱私的問題。 我們的問題和醫療記錄一樣, 就是我們因噎廢食了, 我們沒有真正地思考過 資訊共享帶來的巨大益處, 人們分享資訊, 與正確的人分享,用正確的方式。
CR: And the necessary condition that people have to have confidence that their information will not be abused.
查理.羅斯:還有一個必要條件, 就是人們得有信心, 相信他們的資訊不會被濫用。
LP: Yeah, and I had this problem with my voice stuff. I was scared to share it. Sergey encouraged me to do that, and it was a great thing to do.
賴瑞.佩吉:是的, 我在嗓音上有同樣的問題, 我害怕分享出來。 謝爾蓋鼓勵我這麼做, 這件事非常值得做。
CR: And the response has been overwhelming.
查理.羅斯: 而且大家的反應出奇地好。
LP: Yeah, and people are super positive. We got thousands and thousands of people with similar conditions, which there's no data on today. So it was a really good thing.
賴瑞.佩吉: 是的,而且人們的反應極為正面。 我們調查了成千上萬的人, 都有類似狀況, 而這些數據至今都是沒有的。 所以這是件非常好的事情。
CR: So talking about the future, what is it about you and transportation systems?
查理.羅斯: 說到未來,你是怎麼 注意到運輸系統的?
LP: Yeah. I guess I was just frustrated with this when I was at college in Michigan. I had to get on the bus and take it and wait for it. And it was cold and snowing. I did some research on how much it cost, and I just became a bit obsessed with transportation systems.
賴瑞.佩吉: 我在密西根州讀大學的時候, 我是感到非常沮喪的。 我必須坐公共汽車, 還要等它。 當時很冷,又在下雪。 我做了點成本研究, 然後我就有點迷上了運輸系統。
CR: And that began the idea of an automated car.
查理.羅斯: 於是就有了自動駕駛汽車的想法。
LP: Yeah, about 18 years ago I learned about people working on automated cars, and I became fascinated by that, and it takes a while to get these projects going, but I'm super excited about the possibilities of that improving the world. There's 20 million people or more injured per year. It's the leading cause of death for people under 34 in the U.S.
賴瑞.佩吉: 是的,大約 18 年前我發現 有人在研究自動駕駛, 我被深深吸引, 讓這些專案有所進展得花點時間, 但是想到有可能讓世界變得更好, 我感到無比興奮。 每年有超過兩千萬人受傷。 這是美國 34 歲以下群體 的主要死因。
CR: So you're talking about saving lives.
查理.羅斯:這就是拯救生命了。
LP: Yeah, and also saving space and making life better. Los Angeles is half parking lots and roads, half of the area, and most cities are not far behind, actually. It's just crazy that that's what we use our space for.
賴瑞.佩吉:是的,也是節省空間 和讓生活更美好。 在洛杉磯一半的土地 都是停車場和道路, 一半的土地, 而且大部分城市其實也差不多了。 這實在是太瘋狂了, 我們居然這樣利用空間。
CR: And how soon will we be there?
查理.羅斯:我們什麼時候可以實現?
LP: I think we can be there very, very soon. We've driven well over 100,000 miles now totally automated. I'm super excited about getting that out quickly.
賴瑞.佩吉: 我想非常、非常快就可以實現了。 我們已正常行駛超過十萬英里, 現在完全是自動行駛。 能夠這麼快地實現它,讓我無比興奮。
CR: But it's not only you're talking about automated cars. You also have this idea for bicycles.
查理.羅斯:但你考慮的 不只是自動駕駛汽車, 你對自行車也有這樣的想法。
LP: Well at Google, we got this idea that we should just provide free bikes to everyone, and that's been amazing, most of the trips. You see bikes going everywhere, and the bikes wear out. They're getting used 24 hours a day.
賴瑞.佩吉: 在 Google,我們有個想法, 我們應該向每一個人 提供免費自行車, 這非常棒,對大多數旅行都是。 自行車哪都能去, 而自行車會磨損, 一天 24 小時都在用。
CR: But you want to put them above the street, too.
查理.羅斯:但你也想把自行車放到街道上。
LP: Well I said, how do we get people using bikes more?
賴瑞.佩吉:我就說,怎樣才能 讓人們多騎自行車呢?
CR: We may have a video here.
查理.羅斯:我們這有一段影片。
LP: Yeah, let's show the video. I just got excited about this.
賴瑞.佩吉: 好,我們來播一下影片, 這個讓我非常興奮。
(Music) So this is actually how you might separate bikes from cars with minimal cost. Anyway, it looks totally crazy, but I was actually thinking about our campus, working with the Zippies and stuff, and just trying to get a lot more bike usage, and I was thinking about, how do you cost-effectively separate the bikes from traffic? And I went and searched, and this is what I found. And we're not actually working on this, that particular thing, but it gets your imagination going.
(音樂) 其實這就是把自行車與 汽車分離的最經濟方法, 這看起來很瘋狂, 但實際上我考慮的是我們的校園, 和許多城市等等一起合作, 就是想大大提高自行車使用率, 我還在想, 我們怎樣才能有效並且廉價地 把自行車從車流中分離? 我做了研究, 這就是我所得到的。 我們其實沒有研究這個, 我是說這個具體方案, 但它擴展了想像力。
CR: Let me close with this. Give me a sense of the philosophy of your own mind. You have this idea of [Google X]. You don't simply want to go in some small, measurable arena of progress.
查理.羅斯: 我們把這個話題先告一段落, 說一下你內心的哲學。 你有了 Google X 這個想法, 你想要的不只是一些 小的,規模有限的舞臺。
LP: Yeah, I think many of the things we just talked about are like that, where they're really -- I almost use the economic concept of additionality, which means that you're doing something that wouldn't happen unless you were actually doing it. And I think the more you can do things like that, the bigger impact you have, and that's about doing things that people might not think are possible. And I've been amazed, the more I learn about technology, the more I realize I don't know, and that's because this technological horizon, the thing that you can see to do next, the more you learn about technology, the more you learn what's possible. You learn that the balloons are possible because there's some material that will work for them.
賴瑞.佩吉:是的,我認為 我們剛討論過的許多事情就是這樣, 它們真是…… 我差點要用經濟學 概念上的額外性了, 就是說,你要做的事情 本來並不會發生, 除非你真的動手做。 我認為這樣的事情你做得越多, 你的影響力就越大, 重點在於 去做人們認為不可能的事。 我驚訝地發現, 我懂的技術越多, 就越意識到自己的不足。 這是因為技術的眼界提高了, 也就是預見下一步 該怎麼做的能力。 你懂的技術越多, 你就越知道什麼是可能的。 你知道氣球專案是可能的, 因為有合適的材料可用。
CR: What's interesting about you too, though, for me, is that, we have lots of people who are thinking about the future, and they are going and looking and they're coming back, but we never see the implementation. I think of somebody you knew and read about, Tesla. The principle of that for you is what?
查理.羅斯:不過在我看來, 你的有趣之處在於, 有很多的人在思考未來, 有很多的人在思考未來, 他們去看了看,又回來了, 而我們卻沒有看到最終實現。 我想到了一個人,你一定知道, 特斯拉。 你在這方面的原則是怎樣的?
LP: Well, I think invention is not enough. If you invent something, Tesla invented electric power that we use, but he struggled to get it out to people. That had to be done by other people. It took a long time. And I think if we can actually combine both things, where we have an innovation and invention focus, plus the ability to really -- a company that can really commercialize things and get them to people in a way that's positive for the world and to give people hope. You know, I'm amazed with the Loon Project just how excited people were about that, because it gave them hope for the two thirds of the world that doesn't have Internet right now that's any good.
賴瑞.佩吉: 我認為僅僅有發明是不夠的。 如果你發明一樣東西, 特斯拉發明了 我們用的電力系統, 但是他推廣起來就非常困難, 普及是由別人實現的, 花費了很長時間。 我認為,如果我們能將 二者真正結合起來, 同時著眼於創新與發明, 再加上一家公司, 可以使成果真正商業化, 讓人們接觸到它, 讓它對世界有積極的影響, 並給人們帶來希望。 你知道,大家對氣球專案的關注程度 讓我很是吃驚, 因為它帶來了希望, 尤其是對世界上無法 上網的三分之二來說, 查理.羅斯: 這就是關於公司的第二件事。
CR: Which is a second thing about corporations. You are one of those people who believe that corporations are an agent of change if they are run well.
有些人,包括你,認為, 公司可以成為帶來改變的媒介, 如果好好經營的話。 賴瑞.佩吉:是的, 多數人認為企業是邪惡的,
LP: Yeah. I'm really dismayed most people think companies are basically evil. They get a bad rap. And I think that's somewhat correct. Companies are doing the same incremental thing that they did 50 years ago or 20 years ago. That's not really what we need. We need, especially in technology, we need revolutionary change, not incremental change.
這讓我很是沮喪, 這麼說並不公正, 但我認為在某程度上又是正確的。 公司做的事情就是漸進發展, 五十年前的公司就這樣做, 或者說二十年前, 這也並非是我們真正需要的。 我們需要的是,特別是在科技上, 是革命性改變, 而不是漸進式改變。
CR: You once said, actually, as I think I've got this about right, that you might consider, rather than giving your money, if you were leaving it to some cause, just simply giving it to Elon Musk, because you had confidence that he would change the future, and that you would therefore —
查理.羅斯:你曾說過, 我希望我的理解是對的, 就是,你可能考慮, 相較於直接捐出你的錢, 你更願意用於某些事業, 給伊隆.馬斯克就好了, 因為你相信 他會改變未來, 因此你就會……
LP: Yeah, if you want to go Mars, he wants to go to Mars, to back up humanity, that's a worthy goal, but it's a company, and it's philanthropical. So I think we aim to do kind of similar things. And I think, you ask, we have a lot of employees at Google who have become pretty wealthy. People make a lot of money in technology. A lot of people in the room are pretty wealthy. You're working because you want to change the world. You want to make it better. Why isn't the company that you work for worthy not just of your time but your money as well? I mean, but we don't have a concept of that. That's not how we think about companies, and I think it's sad, because companies are most of our effort. They're where most of people's time is, where a lot of the money is, and so I think I'd like for us to help out more than we are.
賴瑞.佩吉:是的,如果你想去火星, 他想去火星, 來為人類尋找後備方案, 這目標很有價值, 但對公司來說是慈善事業。 所以我覺得我們的目標 是做些類似的事情。 你問過,我們在 Google 有許多員工, 他們非常富有, 通過技術賺了很多錢, 很多人都非常富有。 你工作的目的是改變世界, 你想讓世界變得更好。 為什麼你工作的這家公司, 值得你投入時間, 卻不值得你投入金錢呢? 我的意思是,我們並不這樣認為, 我們也不是這樣看待公司的。 我也覺得很傷感, 因為我們所付出的努力 絕大部分都花在了公司上。 人們在這裡付出了最多的時間, 也花費了許多金錢, 所以我想我要幫助大家, 而非只顧自己。 查理.羅斯: 我跟許多人的談話結束時,
CR: When I close conversations with lots of people, I always ask this question: What state of mind, what quality of mind is it that has served you best? People like Rupert Murdoch have said curiosity, and other people in the media have said that. Bill Gates and Warren Buffett have said focus. What quality of mind, as I leave this audience, has enabled you to think about the future and at the same time change the present?
我總是問這樣的一個問題: 怎樣的心態, 怎樣的心靈特質, 讓你最有收穫? 像魯柏.梅鐸這樣的人 說是好奇心, 別的媒體人士也這樣說。 比爾.蓋茲和華倫.巴菲特 說是專注, 什麼樣的心靈特質 ──在與觀眾說再見前── 使得你能夠思考未來, 而且與此同時, 改變現在? 賴瑞.佩吉: 我認為最重要的事情,
LP: You know, I think the most important thing -- I looked at lots of companies and why I thought they don't succeed over time. We've had a more rapid turnover of companies. And I said, what did they fundamentally do wrong? What did those companies all do wrong? And usually it's just that they missed the future. And so I think, for me, I just try to focus on that and say, what is that future really going to be and how do we create it, and how do we cause our organization, to really focus on that and drive that at a really high rate? And so that's been curiosity, it's been looking at things people might not think about, working on things that no one else is working on, because that's where the additionality really is, and be willing to do that, to take that risk. Look at Android. I felt guilty about working on Android when it was starting. It was a little startup we bought. It wasn't really what we were really working on. And I felt guilty about spending time on that. That was stupid. That was the future, right? That was a good thing to be working on.
我見過很多公司, 為什麼我認為它們 沒能經受時間的考驗。 如今公司的人員流動更快, 我問,他們出錯的根源是什麼? 這些公司都錯在了哪裡? 通常就是因為他們錯失了未來。 所以在我看來, 我就是專注於這一點,並且在想, 未來將真正走向何方, 我們要如何創造未來, 我們怎樣才能讓我們的組織 真正專注於它, 並且帶領組織快速行動呢? 所以那就是好奇心, 去尋找人們 可能沒有想過的東西, 研究別人所沒有研究過的東西, 因為那才是真正的額外性, 同時樂於去做, 樂於承擔風險。 看看 Android, 為 Android 花心力曾讓我感到內疚, 在它剛起步時, 我們併購它時, 它只是個小公司。 它當時也不是我們 真正努力的方向。 為它花時間讓我感到內疚, 那真是非常傻。 但那就是未來,對吧? 那是個很棒的東西, 值得為之努力。 查理.羅斯: 很高興在這裡見到你,
CR: It is great to see you here. It's great to hear from you, and a pleasure to sit at this table with you. Thanks, Larry.
很高興聽到你的講述, 和你一起坐在這也是我的榮幸。 謝謝賴瑞。 賴瑞.佩吉:謝謝你。
LP: Thank you.
(掌聲)
(Applause)
查理.羅斯:賴瑞.佩吉。
CR: Larry Page.