Simone Ross: Good morning, Kiran.
西蒙·罗丝(Simone Ross): 早上好,基兰。
Kiran Mazumdar-Shaw: Hi, Simone.
基兰·马祖达-肖(Kiran Mazumdar-Shaw): 你好,西蒙。
SR: Thank you so much for joining us here today. How do you think that the challenges of the past year will, sort of -- Do you think they will either hinder or improve equitable access to health care?
西蒙·罗丝:非常感谢你能 参加我们今天的谈话。 你如何看待过去一年的 挑战将,某种程度上—— 你认为它们会阻拦 还是增加公平获取 医疗服务的机会呢?
KMS: Well, you know, Simone, one thing is very clear -- that COVID-19 actually pointed out to us that we are all in it together. And I think it also exposed many frailties and fragilities of the health-care systems around the world. And, you know, if I may say so, the developing world showed that it had better primary-care capabilities than the western hemisphere. And this actually has helped them cope with the disease I think a little better than what the Western world has struggled with. And it also pointed out that, you know, you cannot be looking after your own small populations and forget about others who are in the neighborhood because you're not safe. And I think from that point of view, this is now becoming a collective global effort, when it comes to a post-pandemic world, a post-COVID world, because we will need to basically cooperate in terms of surveillance, in terms of prevention and in terms of preparedness, in terms of future pandemics. So I think COVID-19 actually has demonstrated the importance of equitable health care for all, because if you don't do that, you're not really protecting yourselves against it.
基兰·马祖达-肖:嗯, 西蒙,有一点很清楚—— 实际上新冠肺炎告诉我们, 我们都是一条绳上的蚂蚱。 我认为新冠肺炎还暴露了 全世界医疗系统的弱点。 恕我直言, 发展中国家的情况表明,它们拥有 比西方国家更好的基层医疗能力。 这事实上帮助了他们相较于西方, 去更好地 应付这个疾病。 而这也突显了一个道理: 你不能只照顾家里的几口人, 却完全不管其他社区里的人, 因为这病是传染性的。 而且我觉得从这个角度, 说到疫情后的世界, 新冠之后的世界, 这些在变为 全球范围内的统一行动, 因为涉及未来疫情的话, 在监控方面, 在预防方面, 以及在准备措施方面, 我们需要互相合作。 我觉得新冠疫情其实展现出了 平均医疗资源分配的重要性, 因为不然, 你并不能有效地防御它。
And the other point is that, of course, we've seen a large number of initiatives under various umbrellas of WHO, or CEPI, COVAX, the Gates Foundation, et cetera, et cetera, which really has focused on stockpiling vaccines for equitable distribution amongst various countries. So I think all these efforts show you that there is a collective force for global public good that is gaining a lot of acceptance.
另一点自然是 我们看到了世卫组织下 众多附属机构的许多倡议, 像病防范创新联盟(CEPI), 新冠肺炎疫苗实施计划(COVAX) 和盖茨基金会 (the Gates Foundation)等等 都在致力于囤积疫苗, 以及向全球各国的均匀分配。 所以我觉得这所有的努力都表明了 有一股致力于全球 大众幸福的综合势力 正在被广泛认可。
SR: I think nothing to sort of show you how interconnected we truly are than a global pandemic. So, you know, it's pretty amazing, almost unbelievable that a year into this, we have multiple vaccines that are rolling out. And as you sort of mentioned, there has been a fair amount of cooperation between, certainly it seems, in the pharmaceutical industry, on this. Is there anything that has been surprising about that to you? And I'm curious if you have thoughts on what governments can actually learn from industry on this? Because, as you said, global cooperation is really, really important if we're going to get a grip on this pandemic and future pandemics.
罗丝:我觉得没有 像一次全球疫情那样 能彰显我们大家是 那么相连互通的事件。 你知道,这是令人惊讶, 几乎难以置信的;我们 在疫情发生一年后 就已经推出了多款疫苗。 而且就像你说到的, 看起来在制药业内部 肯定是有着这一块的不少合作。 在这方面有什么你始料未及的吗? 我也很好奇, 你对政府能从这个行业 学到什么怎么想? 因为如你所说的,如果我们要对 现在以及未来的疫情有些把控, 全球合作将非常非常关键。
KMS: So, you know, the way I look at this, Simone, is let's look at what actually is happening and what happened to begin with. So to begin with, one of the things that we actually learned was the fact that small biotechs were the ones who actually delivered on innovation and innovative vaccines. So whether it was Oxford University, whether it was BioNTech and whether it was Moderna and many other biotechs like Novavax, et cetera, I think they were the ones who actually pivoted very rapidly and came up with those early vaccine programs, which were then quickly partnered with Big Pharma. So Big Pharma actually then decided to basically invest and license and develop these programs and take it to global markets because, you know, they felt that it was Big Pharma that had the kind of necessary networks and supply chains to deliver those vaccines efficiently to global markets. And that's where they got a lot of help from public funding from BARDA and EU and many other sources of funding, including the Gates Foundation, to basically then deliver these programs to the end-markets that required these vaccines. So that was one very important learning that we had from this pandemic.
马祖达-肖:西蒙, 我看待它的方式 就是讨论现实里正在发生 和已发生的情况。 那么首先, 我们了解的事实之一就是 小型的科技生物公司是那些 真正研发出创新型的疫苗的: 不论是牛津大学, 或是 BioNTech, 又或是莫德纳(Moderna), 还是很多其它如诺瓦瓦克斯 (Novavax)的生物科技,等等。 我觉得恰恰是它们快速转变策略 并制定出最早的疫苗研发项目; 这在不久后与知名药企挂钩。 那么其实知名药企再决定投资, 特批和开发这些项目, 并将它引入全球市场。 因为他们意识到只有药企集团 有那些必要的关系网和供应链 将这些疫苗高效地送达全球市场。 在这里他们极大地得到来自 生物医学高级研究与开发局(BARDA), 欧盟和其它经费来源, 包括盖茨基金会的众筹经费的援助, 以助他们将项目推进到 需求这些疫苗的终端市场。 这便是我们从疫情 学到的非常重要的一点。
The second thing was that after these vaccines were approved, again, some gaps in production came about. And so therefore, suddenly Big Pharma started partnering with each other, which really hasn't happened before, where, say, Novartis decided to help out Pfizer in its manufacturing gaps. And the same thing happened with Merck now trying to help out J an J with its manufacturing needs. So there's been a lot of interesting partnerships and collaborations to really address this global challenge. So I think this has been a really good effort and a great collective effort.
第二件事就是疫苗获批之后, 这一次,出现产量低于预期的情况。 于是出现了以前从没发生过的事情: 大型制药集团 突然之间开始共同合作, 比如说,诺华决定帮助 辉瑞填补他们的产能缺口。 而同样的默克也想办法替强生 解决他们的生产需求。 所以为了应对这个全球性挑战 产生了许多搭档与伙伴关系。 所以我认为这是一次非凡的作为, 是很棒的集体投入。
Amidst all this, I also wanted to pitch for what the Indian vaccine industry has done for the world. If you remember, in the early stages of the pandemic, we had Indian companies really starting to invest in vaccine development. Our largest vaccine maker, Serum Institute, in fact partnered with Oxford University even before AstraZeneca did. And they agreed to help Oxford University by saying that we will actually manufacture this at risk so that you can start clinical trials. And then, of course, AstraZeneca came into the picture and then, you know, Serum Institute is still making very large quantities of the vaccines at scale and supplying it to COVAX and many other countries who are short-supplied in terms of vaccines. Another company, Bharat Biotech, also started developing its own homegrown vaccine based on the virus, which was then an inactivated virus-based vaccine, which has also received emergency-use authorization in India. And then many other companies are also partnering with Novavax and J and J. And there is a quadrilateral alliance summit in India between the US, India, Australia and Japan that is actually talking about partnering in this whole pandemic crisis in terms of both surveillance, in terms of manufacturing, in terms of vaccine deployment. So I think it's very interesting what's happening in the world.
在这所有之中, 我也想聚焦印度的疫苗行业 对世界的贡献。 如果你还记得的话, 在疫情的初期, 有些印度的公司开始 切实投资疫苗的研发。 我们最大的疫苗生产商, 印度血清研究所, 实际上在阿斯利康 之前就与牛津合作了。 他们帮助牛津大学的方式是 承诺会冒着风险生产疫苗, 以便牛津方面可以做临床试验。 当然,后来 阿斯利康也加入进来, 但同时血清研究所还在 生产大批量的疫苗, 以供给那些疫苗短缺的 新冠肺炎疫苗实施计划 (COVAX)和许多其它国家。 除此之外,巴拉特生物技术公司 也开始基于病毒研发 它自己的本土疫苗; 这是灭活疫苗,并在后来 获得了印度的紧急使用授权。 此外,很多其他公司也在 与诺瓦瓦克斯和强生合作。 在印度还举行了一次 四方的盟友峰会, 涉及美国、印度、 澳大利亚和日本。 这是关于 在整个疫情形势下, 在监控、疫苗生产、 和部署疫苗这几方面的合作。 所以我觉得现在世界上 发生的这些很有趣。
And I think India has finally found recognition as a major supplier of vaccines and not just vaccines, but the entire supply chain. We are now recognised as the largest producer of vaccines, of syringes, of glass vials, of needles, because that was our original business. India was vaccinating the world, but it was actually vaccinating low and middle-income countries for the kind of vaccines that you normally deploy worldwide to immunize children. Today, I think it has pivoted and it has gotten recognised as a major vaccine producer in the world. So I think it's important for us to recognize that India is a very critical part of the global supply chain when it comes to vaccines and even generic medicines, for that matter.
我也觉得印度终于被认同为 疫苗的主要供应方之一。 而且不只是疫苗本身, 还包括了整个供应链。 我们现今被认定为疫苗、注射器、 注射剂瓶和针筒的最大产地, 因为我们原本就是干这行的。 印度曾经接种全世界, 其实是接种中低等收入国家, 通过那些你通常在世界范围内 发放的那些给小孩的疫苗。 今天,我觉得它已经转型, 并被认同为全球内的 主要疫苗生产商。 所以我觉得我们很需要意识到 印度是涉及疫苗, 或甚至是通用药物的 全球供应链的关键一环。
SR: Many countries in the developing world have actually done very well in controlling the virus, in controlling COVID-19, and has gotten somewhat better than other parts of the world. Do you think there's something cultural in that? Because the other thing you talked about at Berkeley was sort of, the difference between the pharma industry in India versus the rest of the world.
罗丝:许多发展中国家其实 很好地控制住了病毒, 控制住了新冠, 并且情况较世界的 其它地方多少要好些。 你觉得这其中有文化的因素吗? 因为你在伯克利大学 所讲的另一件事, 大概是印度的制药 较其它国家的区别。
KMS: So you know, there are a number of hypotheses in terms of why did the developing world manage COVID better than other parts of the world, especially Asia, I would say. And I think the reason is that there are many, many factors. One is that we are a young population, you know, so I think our demographics have played to our advantage. I think what has also helped us a lot is that unlike the rigidity of standard of care protocols in many advanced parts of the world, I think Indian doctors are very ready to experiment with therapies that can work. Now, for instance, this is a new virus. This was a new disease. And if you are very stuck on standard of care protocols, which may not work for this disease, then you're actually not giving yourself a fair chance to deal with the disease in a more optimal way.
马祖达-肖:你懂得, 关于为什么发展中 国家更好地应对新冠 存在许多猜测, 特别是亚洲。 我觉得这包括许多 原因和许多因素。 其一就是我们拥有 可观的青年群体, 所以我们的人口组成 对我们是有益的。 我觉得还有一点 很好地帮助我们的, 是不像在很多发达国家的 那些死板的行医规范, 我认为印度的医生时刻准备着 试验新的可行的疗法。 那么,拿现在举例子, 这是个新病毒, 是个新的疾病。 所以如果你拘泥于 死板的行医条规, 那还不一定对这种疾病有效, 那你并没有给你自己很多机会 来以更优化的方式应对病毒。
In India, I think we have an excellent medical community, we have great doctors. And these doctors were actually willing to experiment with anything that could save patients. And what I mean by that is way before WHO prescribed steroids as one of the important interventions for hyper immune responses, I mean, Indian doctors were using steroids right at the start of the disease, OK? And then we were trying everything possible in a very logical way, whether it was basically blood thinners, whether it was low molecular weight heparins to prevent clotting. As they learned about how this disease was working, they were willing to use these kind of therapeutics to try and deal with these patients and their problems. So I think this has helped a lot.
在我看来印度有一个 非常优秀的医学社区, 有着杰出的医生。 并且这些医生为了救病人 愿意做各种尝试。 我的意思是在世卫组织将类固醇 纳入对过度免疫反应的 有效干预措施之前, 印度的医生早在 疫情一开始就在用了。 我们按逻辑顺序试过了 所有可能的方法, 无论是血液稀释剂, 还是低分子量肝素以防止血栓。 当他们逐步了解这个 疾病的运作机制时, 他们愿意通过这种治疗方式 来试图治愈病人,消除症状。 所以我觉得这个帮助了很多。
SR: I'm curious. So you're an entrepreneur, although maybe you don't consider yourself one now, but you did start your company, I've read, in a garage, which often you hear as part of the start-up law, certainly here in the US. I'm curious what advice you might have for a young biotech entrepreneur now.
罗丝:我很好奇。 你是一个企业家。 即使你现在可能不认为自己是, 但我在某处读到,你在一个 车库中开办了你的公司, 而这至少与美国这里的 “创业准则”类似。 我想知道你目前对 年轻企业家有何建议。
KMS: Well, you know, I would say this is the most exciting time for a biotech start-up, because you can see that, you know, a lot of the new ideas are actually coming out of small biotech start-ups. And as you heard, BioNTech was actually struggling to survive and suddenly COVID has made them into a multibillion-dollar biotech company today. So I think, you know, we must understand that any idea can be a blockbuster idea. And you shouldn't give up on these ideas. And to me, you know, entrepreneurship in the tech space is the most exciting space to be in. And I just feel that there are so many challenges and so many unmet needs that in our field of biotechnology, I think, you know ... There's umpteen number of opportunities to be successful. So really, the world is your oyster. And I think, you know, this couldn't be a better time to be an entrepreneur in the tech world, whether it's information technology or biotechnology or any tech space, I think it’s a very exciting time.
马祖达-肖:嗯, 我会说现在是对生物科技 初创来说最有机遇的时段, 因为你也知道, 很多新颖的想法和技术是从 小型生物科技初创公司那儿来的。 你也听说 BioNTech 原本挣扎着活着, 但转眼间疫情使他们成为 一个市值数十亿的生物科技公司。 所以,嗯,我觉得 我们必须明白任何想法 都有可能引起轰动。 所以你不该放弃这些想法。 对于我而言, 科技领域的创业是最热闹的。 我觉得那里有着那么多挑战 和未满足的需求; 而在我们生物科技行业 有无数机会可以成功。 毫不夸张地,这是前途无量的。 而且我还想, 不论是在信息技术还是生物科技 或者任何其它的科技领域, 不会再有一个更好的 科技创业的时机了。 这是充满机遇的时代。
Because today it’s not just about biotech, it's also about the opportunities in AI, in, you know, in the kind of, IOTs and many, many other areas which are actually leveraging information technologies for various applications. I mean, you think about work from home, which has happened during the pandemic, and, you know, technology and technology-based companies are just, you know, finding so many opportunities. Who had heard of Zoom till the pandemic broke out? You know, things like that.
因为如今不仅是生物科技, 还有人工智能领域的机会, 还比如说物联网,和很多其它 把信息技术作为 实际运用手段的领域。 再考虑疫情期间衍生的在家办公, 嗯,科技和科技为本的公司 挖掘出很多机遇。 谁在疫情以前听说过 Zoom?
SR: That's true. I'm curious, so you mentioned sort of blockbusters and that's something else that you talked about a little bit a couple of days ago. You said for some companies, sort of a blockbuster drug is a one-billion-dollar treatment, but that for you, a blockbuster is it reaches one billion people. Can you talk about that a little bit?
罗丝:此言不假。 我感到好奇,你提到了 轰动性的想法, 而且这也是你前几天谈论到的。 你说对于某些公司而言, 轰动性的药物等同于 价值十亿美金的疗程, 但对你来说,这种药应该 是能让十亿人拿到手的。 你能稍微阐述一下吗?
KMS: Yeah, you know, I've always felt that the Western model, in terms of the pharmaceutical industry, has always been to serve a small population which is affluent and which can pay a lot for the drug. So it's been about a high-value, low-volume, kind of a business model. Whereas when you live in a country like India, with over a billion people, and you're trying to basically address the unmet medical needs of such a large population, it has to be about economies of scale. It has to be about serving a large population base. So, for instance, we are an insulin-producing company. And when I look at producing insulin, it has to be affordable and accessible to a billion people at least who need that insulin. So that's what I mean by saying that for me, a blockbuster drug is about serving at least a billion patients, not about a billion dollars, because the moment you serve a billion patients anyway, it's going to be over a billion dollars of an opportunity. So to me, it's about patients first and business will follow.
马祖达-肖:可以,嗯, 我一直以来认为西方的模型, 在制药行业, 是被设计去服务 小部分富裕的, 能为药物付很多钱的人。 所以它是个少而精的商业模型。 而当你住在有着 超十亿人口的印度, 试图为如此庞大的群体解决 未满足的医疗需求, 这必须得和规模经济有关。 必须是以服务众多的人口为中心。 那么比如, 我们是一个胰岛素生产企业。 当我考量胰岛素的生产时, 它必须得足够廉价, 而且是至少十亿人中 有需要能轻易买到的。 所以这就是我说对我而言 轰动市场的药物是 能为至少十亿病人所用, 而不赚来十亿美金的意思; 因为反正当你的客户 是十亿病人的时候, 这肯定也是不止十亿美金的生意了。 所以对我来说, 先服务病人,再来盈利。
SR: Kiran, thank you so much for talking to me today. This was great. Thank you.
罗丝:基兰,谢谢你 参加今天的访谈。 这很棒,谢谢你。
KMS: Thank you, Simone.
马祖达-肖:也谢谢你,西蒙。