In 1994, I walked into a prison in Cambodia, and I met a 12-year-old boy who had been tortured and was denied access to counsel. And as I looked into his eyes, I realized that for the hundreds of letters I had written for political prisoners, that I would never have written a letter for him, because he was not a 12-year-old boy who had done something important for anybody. He was not a political prisoner. He was a 12-year-old boy who had stolen a bicycle. What I also realized at that point was that it was not only Cambodia, but of the 113 developing countries that torture, 93 of these countries have all passed laws that say you have a right to a lawyer and you have a right not to be tortured.
Leta 1994 sem obiskala zapor v Kambodži in spoznala dvanajstletnega fanta, ki so ga mučili in mu preprečili dostop do obrambe. Ko sem mu pogledala v oči, sem spoznala, da kljub stotinam pisem, ki sem jih napisala v podporo političnim zapornikom, nikoli ne bi napisala pisma v njegovo podporo, saj ni bil dvanajstletnik, ki bi za kogarkoli naredil kaj pomembnega. Ni bil politični zapornik. Bil je dvanajstletni deček, ki je ukradel kolo. Takrat sem tudi ugotovila, da ne gre samo za Kambodžo, ampak da je od 113 držav v razvoju, ki izvajajo mučenje, 93 med njimi sprejelo zakone, ki dajejo pravico do odvetnika in prepovedujejo mučenje.
And what I recognized was that there was an incredible window of opportunity for us as a world community to come together and end torture as an investigative tool. We often think of torture as being political torture or reserved for just the worst, but, in fact, 95 percent of torture today is not for political prisoners. It is for people who are in broken-down legal systems, and unfortunately because torture is the cheapest form of investigation -- it's cheaper than having a legal system, cheaper than having a lawyer and early access to counsel -- it is what happens most of the time. I believe today that it is possible for us as a world community, if we make a decision, to come together and end torture as an investigative tool in our lifetime, but it will require three things. First is the training, empowerment, and connection of defenders worldwide.
Pri tem sem spoznala, da obstaja neverjetna priložnost, da se kot svetovna skupnost združimo in končamo mučenje kot preiskovalno prakso. O mučenju pogosto razmišljamo kot da je politične narave ali omejeno samo za najhujše ljudi, a v resnici dandanes 95 odstotkov žrtev mučenja niso politični zaporniki. So ljudje, ki so se znašli v nedelujočih pravnih sistemih in na žalost zato, ker je mučenje najcenejša oblika preiskovanja... cenejša kot imeti pravni sistem, cenejša od odvetnika in od zgodnjega dostopa do obrambe... večinoma se dogaja to. Verjamem, da lahko, če se kot svetovna skupnost odločimo, da bomo stopili skupaj, še v času našega življenja končamo mučenje kot preiskovalno orodje, a potrebne bodo tri stvari. Prva je usposabljanje, opolnomočenje in povezanost branilcev pravic po svetu.
The second is insuring that there is systematic early access to counsel. And the third is commitment. So in the year 2000, I began to wonder, what if we came together? Could we do something for these 93 countries? And I founded International Bridges to Justice which has a specific mission of ending torture as an investigative tool and implementing due process rights in the 93 countries by placing trained lawyers at an early stage in police stations and in courtrooms. My first experiences, though, did come from Cambodia, and at the time I remember first coming to Cambodia and there were, in 1994, still less than 10 attorneys in the country because the Khmer Rouge had killed them all.
Druga je zagotavljanje sistematičnega zgodnjega dostopa do obrambe. In tretja je zavezanost. Leta 2000 sem se začela spraševati, kaj če bi stopili skupaj. Bi lahko naredili kaj za teh 93 držav? In ustanovila sem Mednarodne mostove do pravice, s posebno misijo končati mučenje kot preiskovalno metodo in izvajati pravico do poštenega sojenja v 93 državah, tako da bi usposobljene odvetnike v zgodnji fazi pripeljali na policijske postaje in v sodne dvorane. Moje prve izkušnje pa so iz Kambodže in spomnim se, da ko sem leta 1994 prvič prišla v Kambodžo, je bilo tam manj kot deset odvetnikov, saj je režim Rdečih kmerov vse pobil.
And even 20 years later, there was only 10 lawyers in the country, so consequently you'd walk into a prison and not only would you meet 12-year-old boys, you'd meet women and you'd say, "Why are you here?" Women would say, "Well I've been here for 10 years because my husband committed a crime, but they can't find him." So it's just a place where there was no rule of law.
Še dvajset let kasneje jih je bilo komaj deset, zato smo ob prihodu v zapor srečali ne samo dvanajstletne fante, ampak tudi ženske; vprašali smo jih "Zakaj ste tu?" Ženske so odvrnile: "Tu sem že deset let, ker je moj mož zagrešil zločin, ampak ga ne morejo najti." Gre za prostor, kjer vladavina prava ni obstajala.
The first group of defenders came together and I still remember, as I was training, I said, "Okay, what do you do for an investigation?" And there was silence in the class, and finally one woman stood up, [inaudible name], and she said "Khrew," which means "teacher." She said, "I have defended more than a hundred people, and I've never had to do any investigation, because they all come with confessions."
Prva skupina zagovornikov je prišla skupaj in še se spomnim treninga, na katerem sem rekla: "Ok, kako izvajate preiskavo?" V razredu je nastala tišina in končno je ena od žensk vstala [ime ni razumljivo] in dejala "Khrew", kar pomeni "učitelj". Rekla je: "Branila sem več kot sto ljudi in nikoli mi ni bilo treba izvesti preiskave, saj vsi pridejo s priznanjem."
And we talked about, as a class, the fact that number one, the confessions might not be reliable, but number two, we did not want to encourage the police to keep doing this, especially as it was now against the law. And it took a lot of courage for these defenders to decide that they would begin to stand up and support each other in implementing these laws. And I still remember the first cases where they came, all 25 together, she would stand up, and they were in the back, and they would support her, and the judges kept saying, "No, no, no, no, we're going to do things the exact same way we've been doing them."
Kot razred smo se pogovarjali o tem, da prvič, priznanja morda niso zanesljiva, in drugič, da nočemo spodbujati policije, naj to še naprej počne, še posebej ker je protizakonito. Ti zagovorniki so potrebovali veliko poguma, da so začeli braniti in podpirati drug drugega pri izvajanju teh zakonov. Še se spomnim prvih primerov, ko je vseh 25 skupaj prišlo na obravnavo, ena je vstala, ostali so bili v ozadju, da bi jo podprli, sodniki pa so govorili: "Ne, ne, ne, ne, stvari bomo počeli natanko tako kot doslej."
But one day the perfect case came, and it was a woman who was a vegetable seller, she was sitting outside of a house. She said she actually saw the person run out who she thinks stole whatever the jewelry was, but the police came, they got her, there was nothing on her. She was pregnant at the time. She had cigarette burns on her. She'd miscarried. And when they brought her case to the judge, for the first time he stood up and he said, "Yes, there's no evidence except for your torture confession and you will be released."
A nekoč je prišel popoln primer, šlo je za prodajalko zelenjave, ki je sedela pred hišo. Dejala je, da je videla nekoga priteči ven, za katerega je menila, da je ukradel neke vrste nakit, a prišla je policija in jo prijela, vendar ničesar niso našli. Takrat je bila noseča. Telo je imela ožgano od cigaret. Splavila je. In ko je njen primer prišel pred sodnika, je ta prvič sploh vstal in dejal: "Res, ni nobenega dokaza, razen vašega priznanja, da se je zgodilo mučenje, in izpuščeni ste."
And the defenders began to take cases over and over again and you will see, they have step by step began to change the course of history in Cambodia. But Cambodia is not alone. I used to think, well is it Cambodia? Or is it other countries? But it is in so many countries.
Zagovorniki so začeli sprejemati nove in nove primere in kot boste videli, so zlagoma začeli spreminjati tok zgodovine v Kambodži. Vendar Kambodža ni osamljena. Spraševala sem se, mar gre za Kambodžo? Ali gre za druge države? A dogaja se v tako veliko državah.
In Burundi I walked into a prison and it wasn't a 12-year-old boy, it was an 8-year-old boy for stealing a mobile phone. Or a woman, I picked up her baby, really cute baby, I said "Your baby is so cute." It wasn't a baby, she was three. And she said "Yeah, but she's why I'm here," because she was accused of stealing two diapers and an iron for her baby and still had been in prison. And when I walked up to the prison director, I said, "You've got to let her out. A judge would let her out." And he said, "Okay, we can talk about it, but look at my prison. Eighty percent of the two thousand people here are without a lawyer. What can we do?" So lawyers began to courageously stand up together to organize a system where they can take cases. But we realized that it's not only the training of the lawyers, but the connection of the lawyers that makes a difference.
V Burundiju sem obiskala zapor in nisem srečala dvanajstletnega, pač pa osemletnega fanta, ki je ukradel mobilni telefon. Ali žensko, katere dojenčka sem vzela v roke, res srčkan dojenček. Rekla sem: "Vaš otročiček je tako lep." Saj ni bil dojenček, punčka je imela tri leta. In odgovorila je: "Ja, ampak zaradi nje sem tu," kajti obtožili so jo kraje dveh plenic ter likalnika za svojega otroka in še vedno je bila v zaporu. In ko sem odšla k direktorju zapora, sem dejala: "Morate jo izpustiti. Sodnik bi jo izpustil." In rekel je: "Prav, lahko se pogovoriva o tem, ampak poglejte tale zapor. 80 odstotkov od dva tisoč ljudi tule nima odvetnika. Kaj lahko storimo?" Tako so odvetniki začeli pogumno sodelovati, da bi organizirali sistem, v katerem bi lahko sprejemali primere. A ugotovili smo, da ni potrebno samo usposabljanje odvetnikov, temveč povezava med njimi, to naredi pomembno razliko.
For example, in Cambodia, it was that [inaudible name] did not go alone but she had 24 lawyers with her who stood up together. And in the same way, in China, they always tell me, "It's like a fresh wind in the desert when we can come together." Or in Zimbabwe, where I remember Innocent, after coming out of a prison where everybody stood up and said, "I've been here for one year, eight years, 12 years without a lawyer," he came and we had a training together and he said, "I have heard it said" -- because he had heard people mumbling and grumbling -- "I have heard it said that we cannot help to create justice because we do not have the resources." And then he said, "But I want you to know that the lack of resources is never an excuse for injustice." And with that, he successfully organized 68 lawyers who have been systematically taking the cases.
V Kambodži, denimo, [ime ni razumljivo] ni bila sama, z njo je bilo 24 odvetnikov, ki so nastopili skupaj. Na enak način to poteka na Kitajskem, vedno slišim: "Kot svež veter v puščavi je, ko pridemo skupaj." Ali v Zimbabveju, kjer se spominjam Innocenta, potem ko je prišel iz zapora, v katerem so vsi skupaj rekli: "Tu sem že leto dni, osem let, dvanajst let brez odvetnika," prišel je in skupaj sva izvedla trening in dejal je: "Slišal sem govoriti"... kajti ljudi je slišal mrmrati in godrnjati... "Slišal sem, da ne moremo pomagati ustvarjati pravice, ker nimamo sredstev." In potem je rekel: "Ampak želim, da veste, da pomanjkanje sredstev ni nikakršen izgovor za nepravičnost." Tako je uspešno organiziral 68 odvetnikov, ki zdaj sistematično sprejemajo primere.
The key that we see, though, is training and then early access. I was recently in Egypt, and was inspired to meet with another group of lawyers, and what they told me is that they said, "Hey, look, we don't have police on the streets now. The police are one of the main reasons why we had the revolution. They were torturing everybody all the time." And I said, "But there's been tens of millions of dollars that have recently gone in to the development of the legal system here. What's going on?" I met with one of the development agencies, and they were training prosecutors and judges, which is the normal bias, as opposed to defenders. And they showed me a manual which actually was an excellent manual. I said, "I'm gonna copy this." It had everything in it. Lawyers can come at the police station. It was perfect. Prosecutors were perfectly trained. But I said to them, "I just have one question, which is, by the time that everybody got to the prosecutor's office, what had happened to them?" And after a pause, they said, "They had been tortured."
Ključna stvar pa je, kot kaže, usposabljanje in nato zgodnji dostop. Nedavno sem bila v Egiptu, navdušena nad srečanjem s skupino pravnikov, ki so mi povedali: "Glejte, na ulicah sedaj ni policije. Policija je eden od glavnih razlogov za to, da smo imeli revolucijo. V tistem času so mučili vsakogar." Odvrnila sem: "Ampak na desetine milijonov dolarjev je nedavno šlo za razvoj tukajšnjega pravnega sistema. Kaj se dogaja?" Srečala sem se z eno od razvojnih agencij, ki usposablja tožilce in sodnike, kar je običajna praksa, v nasprotju z usposabljanjem zagovornikov. Pokazali so mi priročnik, ki je bil pravzaprav odličen. Rekla sem: "Tole bom skopirala." Vse je imel. Odvetniki smejo priti na policijsko postajo. Popoln je bil. Tožilci so bili odlično usposobljeni. Potem sem jim rekla: "Imam samo eno vprašanje. Kaj se zgodi z ljudmi, preden dosežejo tožilčevo pisarno?" Po premolku so dejali: "Mučili so jih."
So the pieces are, not only the training of the lawyers, but us finding a way to systematically implement early access to counsel, because they are the safeguard in the system for people who are being tortured. And as I tell you this, I'm also aware of the fact that it sounds like, "Oh, okay, it sounds like we could do it, but can we really do it?" Because it sounds big. And there are many reasons why I believe it's possible. The first reason is the people on the ground who find ways of creating miracles because of their commitment. It's not only Innocent, who I told you about in Zimbabwe, but defenders all over the world who are looking for these pieces. We have a program called JusticeMakers, and we realized there are people that are courageous and want to do things, but how can we support them? So it's an online contest where it's only five thousand dollars if you come up with and innovative way of implementing justice. And there are 30 JusticeMakers throughout the world, from Sri Lanka to Swaziland to the DRC, who with five thousand dollars do amazing things, through SMS programs, through paralegal programs, through whatever they can do.
Sestavni deli so torej ne samo usposabljanje pravnikov, ampak najti način, kako sistematično izvajati zgodnji dostop do obrambe, saj je to varovalka v sistemu za ljudi, ki jih mučijo. In ko vam to pravim, se tudi zavedam, da se sliši kot "oh, prav, zdi se, da bi to lahko naredili, ampak ali to res lahko naredimo?" Kajti sliši se gromozansko. In veliko razlogov je, zaradi katerih verjamem, da je mogoče. Prvi je, da obstajajo ljudje, ki najdejo način za dosego čudežev, ker so tako predani. Ne gre samo za Innocenta iz Zimbabveja, ki sem ga omenila, ampak za zagovornike po vsem svetu, ki iščejo koščke te sestavljanke. Imamo program z imenom JusticeMakers (tvorci pravice) in ugotovili smo, da obstajajo pogumni ljudje, ki hočejo nekaj narediti, ampak kako jih lahko podpremo? Gre za spletno tekmovanje z nagrado le 5000 dolarjev, če razvijete inovativen način izvajanja pravice. Po vsem svetu je 30 JusticeMaker-jev, od Šri Lanke do Svazilanda in Demokratične republike Kongo, ki s 5000 dolarji delajo čudovite reči, skozi SMS programe, skozi paralegalne programe, skozi kakršnokoli sredstvo pač lahko.
And it's not only these JusticeMakers, but people we courageously see figure out who their networks are and how they can move it forward.
In ne gre samo zanje, ampak za ljudi, ki pogumno ugotavljajo, kdo je v njihovem omrežju in kako ga lahko izboljšajo.
So in China, for instance, great laws came out where it says police cannot torture people or they will be punished. And I was sitting side by side with one of our very courageous lawyers, and said, "How can we get this out? How can we make sure that this is implemented? This is fantastic." And he said to me, "Well, do you have money?" And I said, "No." And he said, "That's okay, we can still figure it out." And on December 4, he organized three thousand members of the Youth Communist League, from 14 of the top law schools, who organized themselves, developed posters with the new laws, and went to the police stations and began what he says is a non-violent legal revolution to protect citizen rights. So I talked about the fact that we need to train and support defenders. We need to systematically implement early access to counsel. But the third and most important thing is that we make a commitment to this.
Na Kitajskem, na primer, so dosegli odlične zakone, ki pravijo, da policija ne sme mučiti ljudi, sicer bo kaznovana. Sedela sem poleg enega naših zelo pogumnih pravnikov in rekla: "Kako lahko tole spravimo v javnost? Kako lahko zagotovimo, da se bo uresničevalo? To je fantastično." Odgovoril je: "Hm, imaš denar?" In dejala sem: "Ne." Potem je rekel: "V redu, si bomo že nekaj izmislili." In četrtega decembra je organiziral tri tisoč članov podmladka Zveze komunistov s 14 najboljših pravnih fakultet, ki so se organizirali, napravili posterje z novimi zakoni in šli na policijske postaje ter začeli, kot sam pravi, nenasilno pravno revolucijo za zaščito državljanskih pravic. Govorila sem o tem, da je treba usposobiti in podpreti zagovornike. Sistematično moramo izvajati zgodnji dostop do obrambe. Tretja najpomembnejša stvar pa je zaveza.
And people often say to me, "You know, this is great, but it's wildly idealistic. Never going to happen." And the reason that I think that those words are interesting is because those were the same kinds of words that were used for people who decided they would end slavery, or end apartheid. It began with a small group of people who decided they would commit.
Ljudje mi pogosto rečejo: "Veste, to je krasno, ampak je noro idealistično. Nikoli se ne bo zgodilo." Mislim, da so te besede zanimive, kajti to so bile enake besede, kot tiste, ki so jih izrekali ljudem, ki so se odločili za ukinitev suženjstva ali konec apartheida. Začelo se je z majhno skupino ljudi, ki so se zavezali k nečemu.
Now, there's one of our favorite poems from the defenders, which they share from each other, is: "Take courage friends, the road is often long, the path is never clear, and the stakes are very high, but deep down, you are not alone." And I believe that if we can come together as a world community to support not only defenders, but also everyone in the system who is looking towards it, we can end torture as an investigative tool. I end always, because I'm sure the questions are -- and I'd be happy to talk to you at any point -- "But what can I really do?" Well, I would say this. First of all, you know what you can do. But second of all, I would leave you with the story of Vishna, who actually was my inspiration for starting International Bridges to Justice.
Ena najljubših pesmi, ki si jih delijo zagovorniki, gre takole: "Prijatelji, bodite pogumni, pot je pogosto dolga, pot ni vedno jasna in veliko je nevarnosti, a globoko v sebi nisi sam." In verjamen, da če stopimo skupaj kot svetovna skupnost in podpremo ne samo zagovornike, pač pa vse dele sistema, ki si za to prizadevajo, lahko ustavimo mučenje kot preiskovalno prakso. Vem, da imate vprašanja in z veseljem se bom pogovorila z vami, zato vedno končam takole: "Kaj lahko dejansko storim?" Rekla bi takole. Prvič, veste, kaj lahko naredite. In drugič, naj vam povem zgodbo o Višni, ki me je navdihnil k ustanovitvi Mednarodnih mostov do pravice.
Vishna was a 4-year-old boy when I met him who was born in a Cambodian prison in Kandal Province. But because he was born in the prison, everybody loved him, including the guards, so he was the only one who was allowed to come in and out of the bars. So, you know, there's bars. And by the time that Vishna was getting bigger, which means what gets bigger? Your head gets bigger. So he would come to the first bar, the second bar and then the third bar, and then really slowly move his head so he could fit through, and come back, third, second, first. And he would grab my pinkie, because what he wanted to do every day is he wanted to go visit. You know, he never quite made it to all of them every day, but he wanted to visit all 156 prisoners. And I would lift him, and he would put his fingers through. Or if they were dark cells, it was like iron corrugated, and he would put his fingers through.
Ko sem ga spoznala, je bil Višna štiriletni deček, rojen v kamboškem zaporu v provinci Kandal. A ker je bil rojen v zaporu, so ga vsi imeli radi, tudi pazniki, zato je bil edini, ki je smel prihajati in odhajati izza rešetk. Veste, obstajajo rešetke. In ko je Višna rasel, in kaj pomeni rasti? Glava mu je rasla. Prišel je do prve rešetke, do druge in potem tretje, potem pa je počasi obrnil glavo, da bi se lahko stlačil skozi in se vrnil, skozi tretjo, drugo, prvo. In zagrabil je moj mezinec, ker je vsak dan hotel iti na obisk. Veste, ni mogel vseh obiskati v enem dnevu, ampak hotel je obiskati vseh 156 zapornikov. Jaz sem ga dvignila in svoje prste je pomolil skozi. Če so bili v temnicah, je bilo kot bi se jeklo upognilo in on je potisnil prste skozi.
And most of the prisoners said that he was their greatest joy and their sunshine, and they looked forward to him. And I was like, here's Vishna. He's a 4-year-old boy. He was born in a prison with almost nothing, no material goods, but he had a sense of his own heroic journey, which I believe we are all born into. He said, "Probably I can't do everything. But I'm one. I can do something. And I will do the one thing that I can do." So I thank you for having the prophetic imagination to imagine the shaping of a new world with us together, and invite you into this journey with us.
Večina zapornikov je povedala, da je bil njihovo največje veselje in njihovo sonce in veselili so se ga. Mislila sem si, tule je Višna. Štiriletni otrok. Rodil se je v zaporu skoraj brez vsega, brez materialnih dobrin, a imel je občutek za svoje lastno herojsko potovanje, ki nam je, tako mislim, vsem vrojen. Dejal je: "Verjetno ne morem narediti vsega. Ampak en sam sem. Lahko naredim nekaj. In naredil bom tisto, kar lahko." Zahvaljujem se vam za vašo preroško domišljijo, da bi si zamislili oblikovanje novega sveta skupaj z nami, in vabim vas na naše potovanje.
Thank you.
Hvala vam.
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Thank you.
Hvala.
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Thank you.
Hvala.
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