Julia Gillard: Ngozi, 10 years ago when I became prime minister of Australia, I assumed that at the start, there would be a strong reaction to me being the first woman, but it would abide over time and then I would be treated the same as every other Prime Minister had been. I was so wrong. That didn't happen. The longer I governed, the more visible the sexism became. I don't want any other woman to be blindsided like that. That's why I'm so excited about working with you to help women get ready to lead in what is still a sexist world.
茱莉亞‧吉拉德:恩戈齊, 十年前,我當上澳洲總理時, 我預期一開始會有很強烈的反應, 因為我是第一位女性總理, 但隨時間會漸漸可以忍受, 接著我就會和所有其他首相 得到相同的待遇。 結果我大錯特錯了。 那沒有發生。 我執政越久,性別歧視就越明顯。 我不希望其他女性被這樣攻其不備。 這就是為什麼我很興奮能和你合作, 協助女性在這個仍然充滿 性別歧視的世界中準備好領導。
Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala: I share that sense of excitement. After I was finance minister of Nigeria, I was overwhelmed by the number of women who wanted me to be their mentor. It is terrific that aspiring, young women are keen to learn from those who have gone before, but there are still too few female role models, especially women of color. Now as a result of the work we have done together, I can offer everyone clear, standout lessons that are based not just on my own experience, but on the global research on women and leadership and the candid insights of leading women.
恩戈齊‧奧孔約‧伊衞拉: 我也同樣興奮。 在我當上奈及利亞的財政部長之後, 我很驚訝有這麼多女性 希望我能扮演她們的導師。 這是很棒的事, 有志向的年輕女性渴望 向前人學習, 但女性典範還是太少了, 特別是有色人種女性。 現在,我們的合作有了成果, 我可以提供大家清楚、 出色的經驗之談, 不僅是以我個人的經驗為基礎, 還有全世界對於女性 及領導力所做的研究, 以及女性領導人的公正洞見。
JG: One of the things to share is that there's joy in being a leader -- in having the opportunity to put your values into action. Emphasizing the positive makes a real difference to the power of role modeling. If we only focus on the sexist and negative experiences, women may decide that being a leader sounds so grim they don't want to do it. On the other hand, if we pretend it's all rosy and easy, women and girls can be put off because they decide leadership is only for superwomen who never have any problems. We all have to get the balance right, but Ngozi, it's impossible to talk about role models right now without asking you: how does it make you feel to see Kamala Harris elected as vice president?
茱:值得分享的是, 身為領導者是件喜悅的事—— 因為有機會能把你的價值觀 變成實際行動。 強調正面能夠大大增加 扮演模範的力量。 如果我們只把焦點放在 性別歧視和負面的經歷, 女性可能會認定擔任 領導者聽起來好可怕, 她們不會想去做。 另一方面,如果我們假裝 當領導人很美好、輕鬆, 女人和女孩會被潑冷水, 因為她們會認為領導職 是從來沒有任何問題的女超人做的。 我們都得找到好的平衡點, 但,恩戈齊,現在要談模範, 就一定要問問你: 看到賀錦麗被選為副總統, 你有什麼感受? 恩:我很高興。
NOI: I'm delighted. It's important to the aspiration of girls and women that they see role models they can relate to. Vice President-elect Harris is exactly that kind of role model, particularly for girls and women of color. And every woman who steps forward makes more space for the women who come next.
要鼓舞女孩和女人,很重要的就是 就是要有她們能夠連結的模範。 被選為副總統的賀錦麗 正是這種模範, 特別是對有色人種的 女孩及女性而言。 每一位站出來的女性, 都會為下一位女性 製造更多一點空間。
JG: Of course both of us know from our own experiences that even when women get to the top, unfortunately, too much time and attention will be spent on what they look like rather than what they do and say. Ngozi, for women, is it still all about the hair?
茱:當然,我們兩人 從自身經驗都知道, 即使女性爬到頂端, 很不幸,有太多時間和注意力 會被放在她們的外表上, 而非她們做了什麼、說了什麼。 恩戈齊,看女性的重點 仍然全是髮型嗎?
NOI: Certainly, Julia. I laughed when Hillary Clinton said she envied my dress style, and particularly my signature scarf, so I don't need to worry about my hair. Like many of our women leaders, I've effectively adopted a uniform. It's a colorful one, it's African, it's me. I have developed my own style that I wear every day and I don't vary from it. That has helped protect me from endless discussion of my appearance. It's helped me to get people to listen to my words, not look at my clothes.
恩:肯定是,茱莉亞。 當希拉蕊‧克林頓說 她羨慕我的穿著風格時,我笑了, 特別是我的招牌圍巾, 所以我不用擔心我的髮型。 和許多女性領導人一樣, 我實際上挑選了一件制服。 它很鮮艷,它很非洲, 它代表的就是我。 我開發出了我自己的風格, 我每天都會穿著它,不會改變。 那對我是種保護,避免大家 無止境地討論我的外表, 它協助我,讓大家聽我在說什麼, 不是看我穿什麼。
JG: Hillary told us she lost the equivalent of 24 full days of campaign time in the 2016 election getting her hair and makeup done every day. But actually, contemporary problems for women leaders go far deeper than anything to do with looks. I'd better warn you now, I'm about to use a word many people would find rude. My favorite funny moment in our travels was discussing "resting bitch face" with Prime Minister Erna Solberg of Norway. The global research shows that if a man comes across as strong, ambitious, even self-seeking, that's fine, but if a woman does it, then the reactions against her can be as visceral as revulsion or contempt. They're pretty mind-bogglingly strong words, aren't they?
茱:希拉蕊告訴我們,她花了等同於 二十四個完整競選日的時間, 在 2016 年的選戰中, 每天做頭髮和化妝。 但,事實上,女性領導人 現今遇到的問題更深許多, 不僅僅是和外表有關。 我要先警告大家,我等下要用 一個許多人覺得粗魯的詞。 我們旅程中,我最喜歡的趣味時刻 是和挪威的首相埃爾娜‧索爾貝格 討論「天生臭臉綜合症」。 全球性的研究指出, 如果男性表現出堅強、 有野心,甚至追逐自利, 那沒問題; 但若換成女性, 大家對她的反應 可能是發自內心的嫌惡 或蔑視。 強烈到讓人驚訝的用詞,是吧?
NOI: They certainly are, and women leaders talk about it intuitively, understanding that to be viewed as acceptable as a leader, they have to stay balanced on a tightrope between strength and empathy. If they come across as too tough, they're viewed as hard and unlikeable. But if they come across as too soft, they seem to be lacking the backbone needed to lead.
恩:的確如此, 且女性領導人會很直覺地去談它, 她們了解,要成為被接受的領導人, 她們得在力量和同理之間找到平衡。 如果她們表現得太強悍, 她們會被視為難搞且不討喜。 但如果她們表現得太軟弱, 她們似乎又少了領導所需要的骨氣。
JG: The problem is we still all have sexist stereotypes whirring in the back of our brains. I was portrayed as out of touch because I don't have children. I was even compared to a barren cow in the bush, destined to be killed for hamburger mince.
茱:問題在於,充滿 性別歧視的刻板印象仍然 在我們的腦中揮之不去。 我被描述成與生活脫節的人, 因為我沒有孩子。 我甚至被比喻為荒野中的不孕母牛, 注定要被宰來當漢堡絞肉。
NOI: That's horrible that you faced that stereotype. While I was worried that people would think I couldn't do my job when my family was young, I enjoyed talking to New Zealand's Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern about her experience as the second woman ever to have a child while being a national leader. I was very taken by her saying she doesn't think she gets the work-life balance right, in the sense that she doesn't like the word "balance," and there's always guilt. She just makes it work.
恩:你面臨這種 刻板印象真的很糟糕。 當我在擔心,大家會因為 我的家人還太小 而認為我無法勝任我的工作時, 我很喜歡和紐西蘭總理 潔辛達·阿德恩聊 她的經歷,她是史上 第二個能同時有孩子 並擔任國家領導人的女性。 她有句話很吸引我,她說 她認為她沒有做好 工作和生活的平衡, 因為她不喜歡「平衡」這個詞, 且總是有罪惡感。 她只是設法把這種生活搞定。
JG: Ngozi, where are men in this?
茱:恩戈齊,在此, 男性扮演什麼角色?
NOI: Hopefully, manning up. Men can more equitably share domestic and care work. They can point out sexism when they see it. They can make space for women and mentor and sponsor them. Given that men disproportionately still have the power, we won't see change unless they work with us to create a world that will be better for men and women.
恩:希望是能硬起來。 男性可以很平等地 分擔家務和照護工作。 他們可以在發現 性別歧視時把它點出來。 他們能為女性製造空間, 指導、贊助她們。 因為男性擁的權力的狀況 仍然高得不成比例, 若要有所改變,就需要 他們和我們合作, 創造一個對男性和女性 都更好的世界。
JG: Let's talk about the "glass cliff" phenomenon. If a business or an organization is going well, then they're likely to appoint a new leader who looks a lot like the old one -- that is, a man. But if they are in difficulties, they decide it's time to get someone quite different, and often reach for a woman. To take one example, Christine Lagarde became the first woman to lead the International Monetary Fund when it was in crisis after its former head was arrested for sexual assault. Ngozi, while not as dramatic as that, you know a bit about glass cliffs too.
茱:咱們來談談「玻璃懸崖」現象。 如果企業或組織一切順利, 他們會指派的新領導人很可能 會和原本的很相似—— 也就是,男人。 但如果他們處在困境中, 它們會認為該是 找個不同的人的時候了, 通常就會找來一個女人。 舉例來說,克莉絲汀‧ 拉加德成為第一個 國際貨幣基金組織的女性領導人, 那時組織正在危機中, 因為前任領導人因性侵而被逮捕。 恩戈齊,雖然沒那麼戲劇化, 但你也對玻璃懸崖有點認識。
NOI: I certainly do. I remember clearly being chosen, as a young woman, to lead a very problematic World Bank project in Rwanda. No one else wanted to lead it, lest they fail. So there was this attitude of "if she pulls it off, it's OK. If she fails, then, well, she's just a young African woman whose career doesn't matter that much." From that experience, I learned things about myself and leadership, and the biggest lesson we can share is this: if you have a sense of purpose that drives you, then aim high -- become a leader. And make room as you go. Former US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright is fond of saying that there's a special place in hell for women who don't support women. In this world, we need to be there for each other.
恩:的確如此。 我清楚記得我年輕時被選上 主導世界銀行在盧安達的 一個棘手專案計畫。 沒有人想要接這個工作,以免失敗。 所以他們的態度是 「如果她救援成功,很好。 如果她失敗了,反正 她只是個年輕的非洲女子, 她的職涯沒那麼重要。」 我從那段經歷了解了我自己 也學到了領導能力, 跟大家分享其中最重要的一課: 如果有使命感在推動著你, 那就把目標設高——成為領導人。 並在過程中製造空間, 美國前國務卿馬德琳‧ 歐布萊特很喜歡說 地獄中有個區域特別保留給 不支持女性的女性。 在這個世界裡,我們得要支持彼此。
JG: There's a bit of good news and bad news here. Certainly the research shows that the stereotype about the businesswoman who makes it to the top and then stops other women coming through isn't borne out by the facts. The constraint seems to be that organizations think once they've got a woman or two, they don't need to worry about gender anymore. But we do have to be frank -- women do get pitted against other women for the limited number of seats at the table. We have to be wary of having our solidarity with each other eroded by these politics of scarcity. Instead, we should work together to change the rules that keep us at the margins.
我有好消息也有壞消息。 無疑地,研究指出, 對於爬到頂峰並阻止其他女性進入的 女實業家刻板印象 背後並沒有事實來支持。 限制似乎是在於組織 認為一旦他們有了一、兩個女性, 他們就不用再擔心性別問題了。 但我們必須要坦言—— 女性的確會彼此較量, 因為決策的席位有限。 我們要小心, 別讓我們彼此的團結 被席位稀少的政治因素給破壞。 反之,我們應該同心協力改變那些 把我們擋在邊緣的規則,
NOI: So to summarize, our standout lessons are ... Number one, there's no right way to be a woman leader. Be true to yourself.
恩:所以,總結一下, 我們出色的經驗之談包括: 第一,成為女性領導人, 沒有所謂對的方式。 忠於自己就好。
JG: Number two, we know that women leaders face sexism and stereotyping, so sit down with your mentors, sponsors, best supporters and friends and war-game. How are you going to deal with the gendered moments, with being judged on your appearance, with being assumed to be a bit of a bitch or with your family choices questioned? Forewarned is forearmed.
茱:第二,我們知道女性領導人 要面對性別歧視和被套上刻板印象, 所以,和你的導師、贊助人、 最支持你的人,及朋友坐下來, 做演習。 在出現性別問題的時刻, 你要如何處理? 也許是遇到你的外表被評斷、 別人被假設你是個潑婦, 或者你的家庭抉擇被執疑。 有備無患。
NOI: Number three, let everyone you know talking about gender stereotypes and debunking them: these false assumptions can't survive being held up to the light of day.
恩:第三, 讓你認識的每個人來談性別 刻板印象,揭穿其虛假: 這些虛假的假設, 在光天化日下無法生存。
JG: Number four, there are structural barriers too. Don't wait until you need help balancing work and family life or to be fairly evaluated for promotion. Be a supporter of systems and changes that aid gender equality even if you don't personally need them immediately.
茱:第四,也有結構性的障礙。 別等到你需要協助來幫你 平衡工作與家庭生活, 或被公平地評估是否該升遷。 去支持那些促進 性別平等的制度和改變, 即使你個人並不急需。
NOI: Number five, don't take a backwards step. Don't shy away from taking up space in the world. Don't assume you're too junior or people are too busy. Reach out, network.
恩:第五,別開倒車。 別客氣,儘管去佔據世界的空間。 別假設你太資淺或別人太忙碌。 向外求助,建立關係網。
JG: That's great advice, and leads us to the most important lesson of all -- go for it.
茱:很棒的建議, 也就帶出我們最重要的一課—— 放膽去做。
NOI: Yes, go for it.
恩:是的,放膽去做。
JG: (Laughs) Thank you.
茱:(笑)謝謝你。
NOI: Thank you.
恩:謝謝你。