In the early days of Twitter, it was like a place of radical de-shaming. People would admit shameful secrets about themselves, and other people would say, "Oh my God, I'm exactly the same." Voiceless people realized that they had a voice, and it was powerful and eloquent. If a newspaper ran some racist or homophobic column, we realized we could do something about it. We could get them. We could hit them with a weapon that we understood but they didn't -- a social media shaming. Advertisers would withdraw their advertising. When powerful people misused their privilege, we were going to get them. This was like the democratization of justice. Hierarchies were being leveled out. We were going to do things better.
U ranim danima Tvitera to je bilo mesto javnog oslobađanja od stida. Ljudi bi otkrivali svoje prljave tajne, a onda bi drugi komentarisali: "Gospode, takav je slučaj i sa mnom." Ljudi bez prava na glas su ga dobili i taj glas je bio moćan i obrazložan. Ako bi novina objavila neki rasistički ili homofobni članak, bilo je jasno da možemo da reagujemo. Mogli smo da ih ukebamo. Mogli smo da ih pobedimo oružjem koje oni nisu razumevali ali mi jesmo, izlaganje sramu preko društvenih medija. Reklamne kompanije bi povlačile svoje reklame. Kada bi moćni ljudi zloupotrebljavali svoj status, mi smo tu da ih ukebamo. To je bilo kao demokratizovanje pravde. Hijerarhija je bila izjednačena. Mi bismo postupili bolje.
Soon after that, a disgraced pop science writer called Jonah Lehrer -- he'd been caught plagiarizing and faking quotes, and he was drenched in shame and regret, he told me. And he had the opportunity to publicly apologize at a foundation lunch. This was going to be the most important speech of his life. Maybe it would win him some salvation. He knew before he arrived that the foundation was going to be live-streaming his event, but what he didn't know until he turned up, was that they'd erected a giant screen Twitter feed right next to his head. (Laughter) Another one in a monitor screen in his eye line.
Ne mnogo posle toga, neprihvaćeni pisac popularne nauke, Džona Lerer, uhvaćen je kako falsifikuje i krade tekstove, i našao se u moru srama i kajanja, kako reče. Imao je priliku da se javno izvini na ručku organizacija. To je trebalo da bude najvažniji govor u njegovom životu. Možda bi time obezbedio sebi spas. Znao je pre nego što je stigao da će organizacija prenositi uživo taj događaj, ali nije znao da će postaviti ogroman ekran sa komentarima sa Tvitera iza. (Smeh) Drugi ekran, u visini njegovih očiju.
I don't think the foundation did this because they were monstrous. I think they were clueless: I think this was a unique moment when the beautiful naivety of Twitter was hitting the increasingly horrific reality.
Ne verujem da je organizacija ovo uradila jer je čudovišna, rekao bih da nemaju pojma: to je bio, verujem, jedinstveni momenat kada je simpatična naivnost Tvitera pogodila klimaks užasa realnosti.
And here were some of the Tweets that were cascading into his eye line, as he was trying to apologize:
Eve nekih od tvitova koji su iskakali u visini njegovog pogleda dok je on pokušavao da se opravda:
"Jonah Lehrer, boring us into forgiving him." (Laughter)
"Džona Lerer, muči nas dosadom da bi mu oprostili." (Smeh)
And, "Jonah Lehrer has not proven that he is capable of feeling shame."
"Džona Lerer nije još dokazao da je u stanju da se postidi."
That one must have been written by the best psychiatrist ever, to know that about such a tiny figure behind a lectern.
Ovaj mora da je napisao neki vrhunski psihijatar, koji je uspeo da provali kakva je to osoba koja se krije iza pisaćeg stola.
And, "Jonah Lehrer is just a frigging sociopath."
I još: "Džon Lerer je samo prokleti sociopata."
That last word is a very human thing to do, to dehumanize the people we hurt. It's because we want to destroy people but not feel bad about it. Imagine if this was an actual court, and the accused was in the dark, begging for another chance, and the jury was yelling out, "Bored! Sociopath!" (Laughter)
To je tipično kada želimo da napravimo bezličnim ljude koje povređujemo. To je zato što želimo da uništimo ljude a da se ne osećamo loše povodom toga. Zamislita da je to bila prava sudnica, optuženi je u mraku, moli za još jednu šansu, a sudija se dernja: "Dosadnjaković! Sociopata!" (Smeh)
You know, when we watch courtroom dramas, we tend to identify with the kindhearted defense attorney, but give us the power, and we become like hanging judges.
Kada pratimo sudske drame mi se identifikujemo sa velikodušnim advokatom odbrane ali ako nam se samo da moć, mi postajemo dželati.
Power shifts fast. We were getting Jonah because he was perceived to have misused his privilege, but Jonah was on the floor then, and we were still kicking, and congratulating ourselves for punching up. And it began to feel weird and empty when there wasn't a powerful person who had misused their privilege that we could get. A day without a shaming began to feel like a day picking fingernails and treading water.
Moć se brzo prebacuje. Mi se svetimo Džoni, jer je naizgled zloupotrebio svoje privilegije, ali on je u toj prilici bio posrnuo, a mi smo nastavili da ga udaramo i bili ponosni na sebe što ga mlatimo. Postaje, međutim, isprazno kad to više nije ta moćna osoba koja je zloupotrebila svoje privilegije kojoj se svetimo. Dan kada ne posramimo nekog počinje da biva kao presipanje iz šupljeg u prazno.
Let me tell you a story. It's about a woman called Justine Sacco. She was a PR woman from New York with 170 Twitter followers, and she'd Tweet little acerbic jokes to them, like this one on a plane from New York to London: [Weird German Dude: You're in first class. It's 2014. Get some deodorant." -Inner monologue as inhale BO. Thank god for pharmaceuticals.] So Justine chuckled to herself, and pressed send, and got no replies, and felt that sad feeling that we all feel when the Internet doesn't congratulate us for being funny. (Laughter) Black silence when the Internet doesn't talk back. And then she got to Heathrow, and she had a little time to spare before her final leg, so she thought up another funny little acerbic joke:
Dozvolite mi da vam ispričam priču. To je priča o ženi zvanoj Džastin Sako. Ona je radila na javnim odnosima u Njujorku, sa 170 pratioca na Tviteru. Tvitovala je neslane šale, kao recimo ova, za vreme leta iz Njujorka za London: "Čudni Nemac: U prvoj si klasi, čoveče, i 2014. je godina, kupi sebi dezodorans. Pričam sama sa sobom dok udišem smrad. Hvala bogu za apoteke." Smejurila se u sebi, poslala tvit, ali nije bilo odgovora, i osetila onu vrstu razočaranja koju svi osetimo kad nas internet ne nagradi priznanjem jer smo bili duhoviti. (smeh) Muka tišina je kad nam internet ne odgovara. Stigla je na Hitrou, imala malo vremena da ubije na terminalu tako da je smislila još jednu neslanu šalu:
[Going to Africa. Hope I don't get AIDS. Just kidding. I'm white!]
"Putujem u Afriku. Nadam se da neću dobiti AIDS. Šalim se. Ja sam belkinja!"
And she chuckled to herself, pressed send, got on the plane, got no replies, turned off her phone, fell asleep, woke up 11 hours later, turned on her phone while the plane was taxiing on the runway, and straightaway there was a message from somebody that she hadn't spoken to since high school, that said, "I am so sorry to see what's happening to you." And then another message from a best friend, "You need to call me right now. You are the worldwide number one trending topic on Twitter." (Laughter)
Nasmešila se, poslala tvit, ušla u avion, nije bilo odgovora, isključila telefon i legla da spava. Probudila se 11 sati kasnije, uključila telefon dok je avion još bio na pisti i dobila poruku od nekog sa kim nije pričala još od srednje škole, i ona je glasila: "Tako mi je žao da vidim to što se tebi dogodilo." Onda još jedna poruka od njene najbolje prijatljice: "Pozovi me odmah. Ti si glavna tema svih tviteraša na svetu." (Smeh)
What had happened is that one of her 170 followers had sent the Tweet to a Gawker journalist, and he retweeted it to his 15,000 followers: [And now, a funny holiday joke from IAC's PR boss] And then it was like a bolt of lightning. A few weeks later, I talked to the Gawker journalist. I emailed him and asked him how it felt, and he said, "It felt delicious." And then he said, "But I'm sure she's fine."
Naime, jedan od njenih 170 pratioca je poslao tvit nekom žutom novinaru, koji je to poslao svakom od 15.000 svojih pratioca: "A sada, jedna šala sa odmora od IAC-ove šefice javnih odnosa." I to je bilo kao grom iz vedra neba. Nekoliko nedelja kasnije pričao sam sa tim novinarom. Pitao sam ga kako se osećao tada, on je odgovorio: "Izvanredno". A onda je dodao: "Siguran sam da će ona biti OK."
But she wasn't fine, because while she slept, Twitter took control of her life and dismantled it piece by piece. First there were the philanthropists: [If @JustineSacco's unfortunate words ... bother you, join me in supporting @CARE's work in Africa.] [In light of ... disgusting, racist tweet, I'm donating to @care today] Then came the beyond horrified: [... no words for that horribly disgusting racist as fuck tweet from Justine Sacco. I am beyond horrified.]
Ali to nije bio slučaj jer, dok je ona spavala, tviter je preuzeo kontrolu nad njenim životom i postepeno ga je rušio. Prvo su tu bili filantropi: "Ako vas je Džastin Sako povredila svojom izjavom, pridružite nam se u podršci za rad @CARE u Africi." "Povodom ovog odvratnog rasističkog tvita, doniraću za @CARE danas." Onda je došao užas nad užasima: "...nemam reči o tom odvratnom i jebeno rasističkom tvitu Džastin Sako. Užasnut sam."
Was anybody on Twitter that night? A few of you. Did Justine's joke overwhelm your Twitter feed the way it did mine? It did mine, and I thought what everybody thought that night, which was, "Wow, somebody's screwed! Somebody's life is about to get terrible!" And I sat up in my bed, and I put the pillow behind my head, and then I thought, I'm not entirely sure that joke was intended to be racist. Maybe instead of gleefully flaunting her privilege, she was mocking the gleeful flaunting of privilege. There's a comedy tradition of this, like South Park or Colbert or Randy Newman. Maybe Justine Sacco's crime was not being as good at it as Randy Newman. In fact, when I met Justine a couple of weeks later in a bar, she was just crushed, and I asked her to explain the joke, and she said, "Living in America puts us in a bit of a bubble when it comes to what is going on in the Third World. I was making of fun of that bubble."
Da li je neko bio na tviteru te noći? Možda nekoliko vas. Da li je njen komentar poplavio vaš "feed" kao što je moj? Pomislio sam ono što su i svi te noći: "Au. Neko je nadrljao! Nečiji će život biti strašan od sad!" Seo sam u krevet stavio jastuk iza glave i pomislio kako nisam siguran da je šala bila smišljeno rasistička. Možda je ona umesto da se pravi važna zbog svojih privilegija ismejavala upravo tu uobraženost privilegovanih. O tome postoji i tradicija kod komičara, kao kod Saut Parka ili Kolbera ili Rendija Njumana. Možda njen zločin nije bio toliko dobar kao kod Rendija Njumana. Zapravo, kada sam sreo Džastin nekoliko nedelja kasnije u baru, bila je slomljena, i pitao sam je da mi objasni šalu, i ona je rekla: "Živeći u Americi je kao da živiš pod staklenim zvonom što se tiče događaja u trećem svetu. Našalila sam se sa tim."
You know, another woman on Twitter that night, a New Statesman writer Helen Lewis, she reviewed my book on public shaming and wrote that she Tweeted that night, "I'm not sure that her joke was intended to be racist," and she said straightaway she got a fury of Tweets saying, "Well, you're just a privileged bitch, too." And so to her shame, she wrote, she shut up and watched as Justine's life got torn apart.
Te večeri na Tviteru, druga novinarka iz Njuz Stejtsmena, Helen Luis, recenzirala je moju knjigu o javnom sramljenju i ona je tvitovala te noći: "Nisam sigurna da je njena šala namerno rasistička." Odmah je dobila tvitove pune besa koji su govorili: "Pa ti si i sama privilegovana kučka." I na svoj sram, napisala je, samo je ućutala i gledala kako se Džastinin život raspada.
It started to get darker: [Everyone go report this cunt @JustineSacco] Then came the calls for her to be fired. [Good luck with the job hunt in the new year. #GettingFired] Thousands of people around the world decided it was their duty to get her fired. [@JustineSacco last tweet of your career. #SorryNotSorry Corporations got involved, hoping to sell their products on the back of Justine's annihilation: [Next time you plan to tweet something stupid before you take off, make sure you are getting on a @Gogo flight!] (Laughter)
Postaje još morbidnije: "Svi prijavite tu kurvu Džastin Sako." Onda su je pozvali da joj kažu da je otpuštena. "Srećno sa traženjem posla u Novoj godini." Hiljade ljudi širom sveta odlučilo je da je njihova dužnost da dovedu do njenog otpuštanja. "Džastin Sako, poslednji tvit u tvojoj karijeri." Razne kompanije su se umešale, nadajući se da profitiraju na Džastinovoj propasti: "Sledeći put kad planiraš da tvituješ nesto glupo, potrudi se da si na letu @Gogo kompanije!" (Smeh)
A lot of companies were making good money that night. You know, Justine's name was normally Googled 40 times a month. That month, between December the 20th and the end of December, her name was Googled 1,220,000 times. And one Internet economist told me that that meant that Google made somewhere between 120,000 dollars and 468,000 dollars from Justine's annihilation, whereas those of us doing the actual shaming -- we got nothing. (Laughter) We were like unpaid shaming interns for Google. (Laughter)
Mnoge su kompanije lepo zaradile te noći. Znate, Džastinino ime je obično guglovano 40 puta mesečno. Tog meseca, između 20. i kraja decembra, njeno ime je guglovano 1 220 000 puta. Jedan ekonomista koji se bavi internetom mi je rekao da to znači da je Gugl zaradio negde između 120 000 i 468 000 dolara od Džastinine propasti, a oni od nas koji su je blatili nisu dobili ništa. (smeh) Mi smo kao neki spoljni blatnjaci za Gugl. (Smeh)
And then came the trolls: [I'm actually kind of hoping Justine Sacco gets aids? lol] Somebody else on that wrote, "Somebody HIV-positive should rape this bitch and then we'll find out if her skin color protects her from AIDS." And that person got a free pass. Nobody went after that person. We were all so excited about destroying Justine, and our shaming brains are so simple-minded, that we couldn't also handle destroying somebody who was inappropriately destroying Justine. Justine was really uniting a lot of disparate groups that night, from philanthropists to "rape the bitch." [@JustineSacco I hope you get fired! You demented bitch... Just let the world know you're planning to ride bare back while in Africa.]
A onda su došli trolovi: "U stvari, nadam se da Džastin Sako dobije AIDS? lol" Neko drugi je napisao: "Neko ko je HIV pozitivan bi trebalo da siluje ovu kučku i onda ćemo saznati da li je boja kože štiti od AIDS-a." I ta osoba je dobila odobrenje. Niko nije gonio tu osobu. Svi smo bili tako uzbuđeni uništavanjem Džastin, a naši mozgovi blatnjaca su toliko prosti da nismo mogli da se nosimo sa uništavanjem nekog ko je besramno uništavao Džastin. Džastin je u stvari ujedinila mnoge različite grupe te večeri, od filantropa do "silujte kučku". "Džastin Sako, nadam se da će te otpustiti, ti zaostala kučko... Samo neka svet sazna da ćes imati seks bez kondoma dok si u Africi."
Women always have it worse than men. When a man gets shamed, it's, "I'm going to get you fired." When a woman gets shamed, it's, "I'm going to get you fired and raped and cut out your uterus."
Ženama je uvek gore nego muškarcima. Kada je muškarac obrukan onda je to u stilu "Bićeš otpušten." Kada je žena obrukana, to je onda: "Bićeš otpuštena i silovana i iseci ćemo ti matericu."
And then Justine's employers got involved: [IAC on @JustineSacco tweet: This is an outrageous, offensive comment. Employee in question currently unreachable on an intl flight.] And that's when the anger turned to excitement: [All I want for Christmas is to see @JustineSacco's face when her plane lands and she checks her inbox/voicemail. #fired] [Oh man, @justinesacco is going to have the most painful phone-turning-on moment ever when her plane lands.] [We are about to watch this @JustineSacco bitch get fired. In REAL time. Before she even KNOWS she's getting fired.] What we had was a delightful narrative arc. We knew something that Justine didn't. Can you think of anything less judicial than this? Justine was asleep on a plane and unable to explain herself, and her inability was a huge part of the hilarity. On Twitter that night, we were like toddlers crawling towards a gun. Somebody worked out exactly which plane she was on, so they linked to a flight tracker website. [British Airways Flight 43 On-time - arrives in 1 hour 34 minutes] A hashtag began trending worldwide: # hasJustineLandedYet? [It is kinda wild to see someone self-destruct without them even being aware of it. #hasJustineLandedYet] [Seriously. I just want to go home to go to bed, but everyone at the bar is SO into #HasJustineLandedYet. Can't look away. Can't leave.] [#HasJustineLandedYet may be the best thing to happen to my Friday night.] [Is no one in Cape Town going to the airport to tweet her arrival? Come on, twitter! I'd like pictures] And guess what? Yes there was. [@JustineSacco HAS in fact landed at Cape Town international. And if you want to know what it looks like to discover that you've just been torn to shreds because of a misconstrued liberal joke, not by trolls, but by nice people like us, this is what it looks like: [... She's decided to wear sunnies as a disguise.]
A onda se umešao i Džastinin poslodavac: "O tvitu Dastine Sako: To je bezobrazan i uvredljiv komentar. Službenica koja je u pitanju je trenutno nedostupna, jer je u toku leta." A onda se bes preobratio u uzbuđenost. "Sve što želim za Božić je da vidim njenu facu kad avion sleti i ona proveri svoje poruke." "Hej čoveče, Džastina Sako će imati najgore uključivanje telefona kada njen avion sleti." "Gledaćemo kako otpuštaju ovu kuču, Džastinu Sako, uživo čak i pre nego što ona sazna da je odpuštena." Ponuđen nam je zanimljiv zaplet. Znali smo nešto što ona nije. Možete li zamisliti nešto manje pravedno od ovog? Džastin je spavala u avionu, u nemogućnosti da se pravda, i ta njena nemogućnost je bila deo zabave. Na tviteru te noći bili smo kao odojčad koja puze prema pištolju. Neko je otkrio u kom je tačno avionu i postavio link za sajt za praćenje letova. "Britiš Ervejz, let 43 stiže na vreme za 1 sat 34 minuta." Tviterske oznake su razmenjivane širom sveta: #dalijeonavećsletela? "Nekako je sumanuto gledati kako se neko sam uništava bez da je sam svestan toga." "Ozbiljno. Sve što želim je da idem na spavanje, ali svi u baru bulje u tviter i čekaju da ona sleti. Ne mogu da odstranim pogled i odem." "#dalijeonavećsletela - nešto najbolje što mi se desilo u petak uveče." "Da li će neko u Kejp Taunu na aerodrom da tvituje njen dolazak? Hajde, tviter! Želim fotke." I znate šta? Neko je bio tamo. "Džastin Sako je sletela u Kejp Taun." I ako hoćete da znate kako izgleda da otkriješ da si upravo razbucan zbog svoje preslobodne neslane šale, ne od strane trolova, nego od dobrih ljudi kao što smo mi, evo kako to izgleda: "Prerušila se noseći tamne naočare."
So why did we do it? I think some people were genuinely upset, but I think for other people, it's because Twitter is basically a mutual approval machine. We surround ourselves with people who feel the same way we do, and we approve each other, and that's a really good feeling. And if somebody gets in the way, we screen them out. And do you know what that's the opposite of? It's the opposite of democracy. We wanted to show that we cared about people dying of AIDS in Africa. Our desire to be seen to be compassionate is what led us to commit this profoundly un-compassionate act. As Meghan O'Gieblyn wrote in the Boston Review, "This isn't social justice. It's a cathartic alternative."
Zašto to radimo? Mislim da su neki ljudi iskreno potreseni, ali mislim da drugi, i to zato što je Tviter mašina za uzajamno uvažavanje. Okružujemo sebe onima koji su nama slični, i odobravamo jedni druge, i to je zaista dobar osećaj. Ali ako je neko drugačiji, mi ga odbacimo. A znate li čemu je to suprotnost? Demokratiji. Želeli smo da pokazemo da nam je stalo do ljudi u Africi koji umiru od side. Naša želja, da budemo viđeni kao saosećajni, nas je navela da počinimo duboko nesaosećajan čin. Kao sto je Megan Ogiblin napisala u Boston Rivjuu: "To nije socijalna pravda već rešenje za katarzu."
For the past three years, I've been going around the world meeting people like Justine Sacco -- and believe me, there's a lot of people like Justine Sacco. There's more every day. And we want to think they're fine, but they're not fine. The people I met were mangled. They talked to me about depression, and anxiety and insomnia and suicidal thoughts. One woman I talked to, who also told a joke that landed badly, she stayed home for a year and a half. Before that, she worked with adults with learning difficulties, and was apparently really good at her job.
U protekle tri godine, putujem širom sveta i srećem ljude poput Džastin Sako - i verujte mi, mnogo je takvih. I ima ih više svakoga dana. Želimo da verujemo da će biti u redu, ali neće. Ljudi koje sam sreo su raskomadani. Pričaju mi o depresiji, o anksioznosti, nespavanju i samoubilačkim mislima. Jedna žena sa kojom sam pričao je takođe napravila šalu koja je loše primljena, zatvorila se u kuću na godinu ipo dana. Pre toga, radila je sa odraslima koji imaju poteškoća u učenju i bila je zapravo dobra u svom poslu.
Justine was fired, of course, because social media demanded it. But it was worse than that. She was losing herself. She was waking up in the middle of the night, forgetting who she was. She was got because she was perceived to have misused her privilege. And of course, that's a much better thing to get people for than the things we used to get people for, like having children out of wedlock. But the phrase "misuse of privilege" is becoming a free pass to tear apart pretty much anybody we choose to. It's becoming a devalued term, and it's making us lose our capacity for empathy and for distinguishing between serious and unserious transgressions.
Džastin je otpuštena, naravno, jer su društveni mediji to zahtevali. Ali bilo je gore od toga. Gubila se. Hodala je u mrklom mraku, neznajući ko je. Osvetili su joj se, jer je izgledalo kao da je zloupotrebila svoje privilegije. Naravno, to je dobar razlog da se svetimo ljudima nego li na primer, za rađanje vanbračne dece. Fraza "zloupotreba privilegija" je kao dozvola da razbijemo koga god želimo. To je postao obezvređivački izraz, i čini nas da izgubimo sav kapacitet za saosećanje i za razlikovanje između ozbiljnog i neozbiljnog prekršaja.
Justine had 170 Twitter followers, and so to make it work, she had to be fictionalized. Word got around that she was the daughter the mining billionaire Desmond Sacco. [Let us not be fooled by #JustineSacco her father is a SA mining billionaire. She's not sorry. And neither is her father.] I thought that was true about Justine, until I met her at a bar, and I asked her about her billionaire father, and she said, "My father sells carpets."
Džastin je imala 170 pratioca na Tviteru i da bi to funkcionisalo, morala je da bude "izmišljena". Govorili su da je ćerka milijardera, vlasnika rudnika Dezmonda Saka. "Ne dozvolimo da nas prevari Džastin Sako, njen je otac rudni milioner. Ona se ne kaje. A ni njen tata." Mislio sam da je to istina dok je nisam sreo u baru i pitao o njenom ocu milijarderu, odgovorila je: "Moj je otac prodavac tepiha."
And I think back on the early days of Twitter, when people would admit shameful secrets about themselves, and other people would say, "Oh my God, I'm exactly the same." These days, the hunt is on for people's shameful secrets. You can lead a good, ethical life, but some bad phraseology in a Tweet can overwhelm it all, become a clue to your secret inner evil.
Mislim na rane dane Tvitera kad su ljudi priznavali svoje prljave tajne, a drugi odgovarali: "Gospode, bas je takav slučaj i sa mnom." U tom periodu, lovili smo prljave tajne. Možete voditi miran, moralni život, ali dovoljan je jedan loše formulisan tvit da sve to zaseni, i postane pokazatelj vašeg tajnog unutrašnjeg zla.
Maybe there's two types of people in the world: those people who favor humans over ideology, and those people who favor ideology over humans. I favor humans over ideology, but right now, the ideologues are winning, and they're creating a stage for constant artificial high dramas where everybody's either a magnificent hero or a sickening villain, even though we know that's not true about our fellow humans. What's true is that we are clever and stupid; what's true is that we're grey areas. The great thing about social media was how it gave a voice to voiceless people, but we're now creating a surveillance society, where the smartest way to survive is to go back to being voiceless.
Moguće je da postoje dve vrste ljudi na svetu: oni koji više vole ljude nego ideologije i oni koji više vole ideologiju od ljudi. Ja više volim ljude od ideologije, ali trenutno ideologija pobeđuje i stvara se bina za stalnu veštački izazvanu dramu u kojoj su ljudi ili veličanstveni heroji ili bolesni zlotvori, čak iako znamo da to nije istina o ljudima. Ono što je istina je da smo i jedno i drugo, da postoje i sive zone. Sjajno je da su društveni mediji dali glas ljudima koji ga nisu imali, ali sada se kreira društvo nadgledanja gde je za samoodržanje bolje biti bezglasan.
Let's not do that.
Nemojmo to dozvoliti.
Thank you.
Hvala vam.
(Applause)
(Aplauz)
Bruno Giussani: Thank you, Jon.
Bruno Đuzani: Hvala ti, Džone.
Jon Ronson: Thanks, Bruno.
Džon Ronson: Hvala, Bruno.
BG: Don't go away. What strikes me about Justine's story is also the fact that if you Google her name today, this story covers the first 100 pages of Google results -- there is nothing else about her. In your book, you mention another story of another victim who actually got taken on by a reputation management firm, and by creating blogs and posting nice, innocuous stories about her love for cats and holidays and stuff, managed to get the story off the first couple pages of Google results, but it didn't last long. A couple of weeks later, they started creeping back up to the top result. Is this a totally lost battle?
BĐ: Nemoj da ideš. Ono što me je pogodilo u Džastininoj priči je činjenica da ako danas guglate njeno ime, ova priča se prostire na prvih sto stranica pretrage, a ne piše nista drugo o njoj. U tvojoj knjizi, ti si pomenuo priču o žrtvi koju je preuzela firma za reputaciju i koja je objavljujući blogove o njenim voljenim mačkama, odmoru i slično, uspela da njena priča bude skinuta a prvih sto strana, ali to nije trajalo dugo. Nekoliko nedelja posle, ponovo je dogurala na početak. Da li se radi o unapred izgubljenoj bici?
Jon Ronson: You know, I think the very best thing we can do, if you see a kind of unfair or an ambiguous shaming, is to speak up, because I think the worst thing that happened to Justine was that nobody supported her -- like, everyone was against her, and that is profoundly traumatizing, to be told by tens of thousands of people that you need to get out. But if a shaming happens and there's a babble of voices, like in a democracy, where people are discussing it, I think that's much less damaging. So I think that's the way forward, but it's hard, because if you do stand up for somebody, it's incredibly unpleasant.
DžR: Najbolje što možemo da uradimo jeste da, ako vidimo nepravedno blaćenje, reagujemo, jer, najgore što se dogodilo Džastin jeste da je niko nije podržao, svi su bili protiv. I da je duboko bolno da ti desetine hiljada ljudi kaže da se nosiš. Ali ako se blećenje dogodi i tu bude dijaloga, kao u demokratiji to je, verujem, manje štetno. Dakle, postoji način ali je težak, jer je zastupati nekog veoma neprijatno.
BG: So let's talk about your experience, because you stood up by writing this book. By the way, it's mandatory reading for everybody, okay? You stood up because the book actually puts the spotlight on shamers. And I assume you didn't only have friendly reactions on Twitter.
BĐ: Reci nam svoje iskustvo, jer ti jesi stao u odbranu pišući ovu knjigu. Uzgred, obavezno je pročitajte, OK? Ti si zastupio, zapravo, one koji su blaćeni. Pretpostavljam da si imao i negativnih komentara.
JR: It didn't go down that well with some people. (Laughter) I mean, you don't want to just concentrate -- because lots of people understood, and were really nice about the book. But yeah, for 30 years I've been writing stories about abuses of power, and when I say the powerful people over there in the military, or in the pharmaceutical industry, everybody applauds me. As soon as I say, "We are the powerful people abusing our power now," I get people saying, "Well you must be a racist too."
DžR: Pa, nekima je malčice zasmetalo. (Smeh) Ne bih se osvrtao samo na to. Mnogi su razumeli i bili pozitivni o knjizi. Istina, pišem preko 30 godina o zloupotrebi moći, mislim na moć u vojnoj oblasti, u farmaceutskoj industriji, svi su me odobravali. Dokle god formulišem kao: "Mi smo moćni i sada zloupotrebljavamo svoju moć", ljudi kažu: "Pa, mora da si i ti rasista."
BG: So the other night -- yesterday -- we were at dinner, and there were two discussions going on. On one side you were talking with people around the table -- and that was a nice, constructive discussion. On the other, every time you turned to your phone, there is this deluge of insults.
BĐ: Juče na večeri odvijala se diskusija. Dok bi ti pričao sa ljudima za stolom odvijao se konstruktivan, lep dijalog. Kad god bi, međutim, ti odgovarao na telefon, počeo bi pljusak uvreda.
JR: Yeah. This happened last night. We had like a TED dinner last night. We were chatting and it was lovely and nice, and I decided to check Twitter. Somebody said, "You are a white supremacist." And then I went back and had a nice conversation with somebody, and then I went back to Twitter, somebody said my very existence made the world a worse place. My friend Adam Curtis says that maybe the Internet is like a John Carpenter movie from the 1980s, when eventually everyone will start screaming at each other and shooting each other, and then eventually everybody would flee to somewhere safer, and I'm starting to think of that as a really nice option.
DžR: Da, to se događalo juče na TED večeri. Imali smo prijatan razgovor kad sam odlučio da proverim Tviter. Neko je rekao: "Ti si za superiornost belaca." Onda sam se vratio prijatnom razgovoru i kad sam ponovo proverio Tviter, neko je rekao da samo moje postojanje čini svet gorim. Moj prijatelj Adam Kertis je rekao da je internet kao film Džona Karpentera iz 80--tih gde će u nekom trenutku svi da se deru na sve i da vrište i da će svi u nekom trenutku da se povuku negde sigurnije, i mislim da je to dobro rešenje.
BG: Jon, thank you. JR: Thank you, Bruno.
BĐ: Džone, hvala ti. DžR: Hvala tebi, Bruno.
(Applause)
(Aplauz)