To give me an idea of how many of you here may find what I'm about to tell you of practical value, let me ask you please to raise your hands: Who here is either over 65 years old or hopes to live past age 65 or has parents or grandparents who did live or have lived past 65, raise your hands please. (Laughter)
請大家表示意見 現場有多少人 可能發現我要演講的主題 就是「實用價值」 我想請問各位一個問題 有符合描述的人請舉手 在場有誰超過65歲 誰希望活超過65歲 有父母或祖父母生前 或現在超過65歲的人 請舉手(笑聲)
Okay. You are the people to whom my talk will be of practical value. (Laughter) The rest of you won't find my talk personally relevant, but I think that you will still find the subject fascinating.
好 你們就是那些 會覺得我的演講很實用的人(笑聲) 其餘的人 可能會覺得我的演講與自己沒有關係 但是我認為你們 還是會覺得這次主題 很吸引人
I'm going to talk about growing older in traditional societies. This subject constitutes just one chapter of my latest book, which compares traditional, small, tribal societies with our large, modern societies, with respect to many topics such as bringing up children, growing older, health, dealing with danger, settling disputes, religion and speaking more than one language.
我今天的演講主題是 在傳統社會裡年紀增長的議題 這個主題只是我新書當中的其中一個章節 我的新書是將 傳統社會、小型社會、部落社會 與我們大型的現代社會比較 還有許多主題 像是撫養小孩 人口高齡化、健康問題、危機處理 解決紛爭、宗教議題 還有語言多樣性等主題
Those tribal societies, which constituted all human societies for most of human history, are far more diverse than are our modern, recent, big societies. All big societies that have governments, and where most people are strangers to each other, are inevitably similar to each other and different from tribal societies. Tribes constitute thousands of natural experiments in how to run a human society. They constitute experiments from which we ourselves may be able to learn. Tribal societies shouldn't be scorned as primitive and miserable, but also they shouldn't be romanticized as happy and peaceful. When we learn of tribal practices, some of them will horrify us, but there are other tribal practices which, when we hear about them, we may admire and envy and wonder whether we could adopt those practices ourselves.
在人類歷史上可以常看到這種部落社會 在人類歷史上可以常看到這種部落社會 這種社會比我們近期的大型現代社會 更加多元化 所有大型社會都有政府組織 在這種社會裡 多數民眾對彼此都很生疏 每種大型社會都很類似 但是又與部落社會不同 部落社會是經由大自然千錘百鍊的試驗 得出人類社會最佳的運作方式 他們所建構出的這些實驗 也許我們能從這些實驗學到一些東西 我們不應該嘲笑部落社會 是一種很落後、原始的社會 但也不能將其美化成 是一個快樂安寧的社會 我們聽說某些部落習俗的時候 有些習俗可能會嚇到我們 但是其他的部落習俗 我們聽到的時候 我們可能會很羨慕 然後遲疑我們自己 是否也能採納那些方法
Most old people in the U.S. end up living separately from their children and from most of their friends of their earlier years, and often they live in separate retirements homes for the elderly, whereas in traditional societies, older people instead live out their lives among their children, their other relatives, and their lifelong friends. Nevertheless, the treatment of the elderly varies enormously among traditional societies, from much worse to much better than in our modern societies.
在美國多數的老人在臨走前 都沒有和他們的小孩住在一起 沒有與多數早年的朋友 保持聯繫 通常他們都住在養老院 養老院是屬於傳統社會 年紀較長的長輩反而是 與他們的小孩住在一起 和其他親戚常有交流 常終身好友互動往來 不過對待老年人的方式 在各種傳統社會型態上 有著很大的差異 相較於我們現代社會 對待老年人的情況 狀況是從「極差」到「極佳」都有
At the worst extreme, many traditional societies get rid of their elderly in one of four increasingly direct ways: by neglecting their elderly and not feeding or cleaning them until they die, or by abandoning them when the group moves, or by encouraging older people to commit suicide, or by killing older people. In which tribal societies do children abandon or kill their parents? It happens mainly under two conditions. One is in nomadic, hunter-gather societies that often shift camp and that are physically incapable of transporting old people who can't walk when the able-bodied younger people already have to carry their young children and all their physical possessions. The other condition is in societies living in marginal or fluctuating environments, such as the Arctic or deserts, where there are periodic food shortages, and occasionally there just isn't enough food to keep everyone alive. Whatever food is available has to be reserved for able-bodied adults and for children. To us Americans, it sounds horrible to think of abandoning or killing your own sick wife or husband or elderly mother or father, but what could those traditional societies do differently? They face a cruel situation of no choice. Their old people had to do it to their own parents, and the old people know what now is going to happen to them.
最糟糕的情況就是 許多傳統社會 棄養老年人逐年增長的 四大直接了當的方式包括: 對老年人漠不關心 不餵他們吃飯 到他們死前也不幫他們洗澡 拋棄他們 勸老年人自己了結生命 殺害老年人 部落社會裡的小孩 真的會棄養或殺害他們的雙親嗎? 會發生此等情事 主要有兩種情況 其中一個就是游牧的狩獵採集社會 這種社會常常遷徙 實際上沒有餘力 帶上不便行走的老年人 當身強體健的年輕人準備 要帶上他們的小孩 和他們所有財產移動的時候 另外一種情況就是 生活在邊緣的社會 或經常變動的環境之下 像是北極地區、沙漠地帶 都常出現週期性食物短缺的狀態 偶爾也會發生糧食不足的情況 無法養活每一個人 不管食物是否足夠都必須 留給健康的成年人和小孩食用 對我們美國人來說 要棄養或殺害 自己患有重病的老婆、丈夫 或年邁的父母 這種事情聽起來很恐怖 但是那些傳統社會 能有什麼不一樣的做法嗎? 他們面臨一種很殘酷的情況 毫無選擇餘地 他們的老年人也得 以同樣的方式對待他們自己的父母 老年人知道 接下來會降臨在他們身上的事情
At the opposite extreme in treatment of the elderly, the happy extreme, are the New Guinea farming societies where I've been doing my fieldwork for the past 50 years, and most other sedentary traditional societies around the world. In those societies, older people are cared for. They are fed. They remain valuable. And they continue to live in the same hut or else in a nearby hut near their children, relatives and lifelong friends.
另外一種對待老年人的作法上 是一個極端狀態就是「非常好」 新幾內亞的農業社會對老年人非常好 我在當地研究超過50年 也研究大多數 世界上固有的傳統社會 在那些社會中 老年人都有得到妥善照顧 都有人會餵飯給他們吃 他們還是有生存的價值 也都還是住在同一間房子 或是住在小孩 親戚或終身好友的附近
There are two main sets of reasons for this variation among societies in their treatment of old people. The variation depends especially on the usefulness of old people and on the society's values.
這種變化有兩組主要原因 在各社會型態 對其他老年人的方式 這種變化特別是取決於 老年人是否還有利用價值 還有該社會的價值
First, as regards usefulness, older people continue to perform useful services. One use of older people in traditional societies is that they often are still effective at producing food. Another traditional usefulness of older people is that they are capable of babysitting their grandchildren, thereby freeing up their own adult children, the parents of those grandchildren, to go hunting and gathering food for the grandchildren. Still another traditional value of older people is in making tools, weapons, baskets, pots and textiles. In fact, they're usually the people who are best at it. Older people usually are the leaders of traditional societies, and the people most knowledgeable about politics, medicine, religion, songs and dances.
首先 關於利用價值 老年人持續做出有用的貢獻 傳統社會中 老年人的其中一個作用 就是通常他們仍然 對生產食物有一定的影響力 另一個老年人傳統上的利用價值 就是他們能夠 照顧他們的孫子女 讓他們長大成人的兒女 也就是他們孫子女的父母 能放心去打獵 或採集食物給小孩吃 老年人還有另一個傳統價值 就是製造工具、武器、竹籃 鍋、壺、紡織品等 實際上他們通常都是 最會做這些東西的人 老年人通常都扮演著 傳統社會的領導者 他們也對政治、醫學、宗教、歌謠與舞蹈 非常博學多聞
Finally, older people in traditional societies have a huge significance that would never occur to us in our modern, literate societies, where our sources of information are books and the Internet. In contrast, in traditional societies without writing, older people are the repositories of information. It's their knowledge that spells the difference between survival and death for their whole society in a time of crisis caused by rare events for which only the oldest people alive have had experience. Those, then, are the ways in which older people are useful in traditional societies. Their usefulness varies and contributes to variation in the society's treatment of the elderly.
最後 傳統社會的老年人 具有一種重要性 那種重要性在現代文明社會 我們絕對想像不到 在文明社會裡 我們資訊的來源都是依靠書籍 與網際網路 相較之下 在沒有以文字傳遞訊息的傳統社會裡 老年人就是一座資訊寶庫 靠著他們的知識拼湊出 整個社會對於生死之間觀念的差異 在一段時間由少數事件所導致的危機 只有現在活著的老年人 已經經歷過的 那些生活方式都使 傳統社會的年長者存有利用價值 他們還能做很多事 也能改善社會 對待老年人的方式
The other set of reasons for variation in the treatment of the elderly is the society's cultural values. For example, there's particular emphasis on respect for the elderly in East Asia, associated with Confucius' doctrine of filial piety, which means obedience, respect and support for elderly parents. Cultural values that emphasize respect for older people contrast with the low status of the elderly in the U.S. Older Americans are at a big disadvantage in job applications. They're at a big disadvantage in hospitals. Our hospitals have an explicit policy called age-based allocation of healthcare resources. That sinister expression means that if hospital resources are limited, for example if only one donor heart becomes available for transplant, or if a surgeon has time to operate on only a certain number of patients, American hospitals have an explicit policy of giving preference to younger patients over older patients on the grounds that younger patients are considered more valuable to society because they have more years of life ahead of them, even though the younger patients have fewer years of valuable life experience behind them. There are several reasons for this low status of the elderly in the U.S. One is our Protestant work ethic which places high value on work, so older people who are no longer working aren't respected. Another reason is our American emphasis on the virtues of self-reliance and independence, so we instinctively look down on older people who are no longer self-reliant and independent. Still a third reason is our American cult of youth, which shows up even in our advertisements. Ads for Coca-Cola and beer always depict smiling young people, even though old as well as young people buy and drink Coca-Cola and beer. Just think, what's the last time you saw a Coke or beer ad depicting smiling people 85 years old? Never. Instead, the only American ads featuring white-haired old people are ads for retirement homes and pension planning.
另一項會造成對待老年人的方式 有所差異的原因就是 該社會的文化價值 例如 有個特別的重點 在東亞的老年人的觀念裡 與儒家思想中的 孝道有關 盡孝道的意思是指要服從尊長 尊敬長者 扶持長輩 強調尊重長輩的文化價值 與不太重視老年人的美國文化 形成對比 美國的老年人有著很大的劣勢 在應徵工作的時候 醫院也對他們不太友善 我們的醫院有一項明確的政策 叫做「依照年齡分配醫療資源方案」 講不好聽一點就是 如果醫療資源有限 例如 如果只有一顆捐贈的心臟 能夠進行移植 或者如果一位外科醫生 在僅限的時間之內 只能為一定數量的病人動手術 美國的醫院有一項明確的政策 讓較年輕的病患先進行手術 較年長的病患則慢一點 因為他們認為年輕的病患 對社會來說比較有價值 因為他們還能活的時間比較長 雖然年輕病患有的 寶貴的生活經驗不及老年人 造成美國人不太尊重老年人的情況 有幾個原因 其中一個原因就是我們的「新教倫理」 「新教倫理」非常重視工作 所以無法工作老年人 就得不到別人的尊敬 另一個原因就是我們美國人強調 要有自力更生、獨立自主的美德 所以我們就會以直覺來看待老年人 而老年人通常都需要別人來照顧 第三個原因就是 我們美國人崇拜「青春能量」 這種情況就連在我們的 電視廣告裡都可以看見 可口可樂和啤酒的廣告都可以看到 有年輕人開懷大笑 即使不論老少 都會買可口可樂和啤酒來喝 試想一下 上次你看到 可口可樂或是啤酒的廣告 當中有一位85歲的老人在對你微笑 絕對沒有 反而只有美國的廣告 當中出現白髮蒼蒼的老人 這些都是老人院和退休金規畫的廣告
Well, what has changed in the status of the elderly today compared to their status in traditional societies? There have been a few changes for the better and more changes for the worse. Big changes for the better include the fact that today we enjoy much longer lives, much better health in our old age, and much better recreational opportunities. Another change for the better is that we now have specialized retirement facilities and programs to take care of old people. Changes for the worse begin with the cruel reality that we now have more old people and fewer young people than at any time in the past. That means that all those old people are more of a burden on the few young people, and that each old person has less individual value. Another big change for the worse in the status of the elderly is the breaking of social ties with age, because older people, their children, and their friends, all move and scatter independently of each other many times during their lives. We Americans move on the average every five years. Hence our older people are likely to end up living distant from their children and the friends of their youth. Yet another change for the worse in the status of the elderly is formal retirement from the workforce, carrying with it a loss of work friendships and a loss of the self-esteem associated with work. Perhaps the biggest change for the worse is that our elderly are objectively less useful than in traditional societies. Widespread literacy means that they are no longer useful as repositories of knowledge. When we want some information, we look it up in a book or we Google it instead of finding some old person to ask. The slow pace of technological change in traditional societies means that what someone learns there as a child is still useful when that person is old, but the rapid pace of technological change today means that what we learn as children is no longer useful 60 years later. And conversely, we older people are not fluent in the technologies essential for surviving in modern society. For example, as a 15-year-old, I was considered outstandingly good at multiplying numbers because I had memorized the multiplication tables and I know how to use logarithms and I'm quick at manipulating a slide rule. Today, though, those skills are utterly useless because any idiot can now multiply eight-digit numbers accurately and instantly with a pocket calculator. Conversely, I at age 75 am incompetent at skills essential for everyday life. My family's first TV set in 1948 had only three knobs that I quickly mastered: an on-off switch, a volume knob, and a channel selector knob. Today, just to watch a program on the TV set in my own house, I have to operate a 41-button TV remote that utterly defeats me. I have to telephone my 25-year-old sons and ask them to talk me through it while I try to push those wretched 41 buttons.
是什麼力量改變 今天老年人的狀態 相較於他們在傳統社會的狀態? 有少數部份變得比較好 但多數部份變的更差了 大幅度的改變帶來更好的生活 包括今天我們能享有 更長的壽命 我們老的時候比前人更健康 有更好休養生息的機會 另一項好的改變就是 我們現在有 專門設置的養老設施 與照料計畫去照顧老年人 不好的改變就是來自於殘酷的現實 我們現在的 老年人更多 但年輕人更少 情況比從前任何時候都還嚴重 那就表示因為老年人口較多 而年輕人口較少 使得年輕人的負擔更重了 也表示每位老年人的個人價值下降了 對於老年人的狀態方面 另一項不好的大改變 就是隨年齡增長而疏離社會聯繫 因為年長者、他們的小孩 他們的朋友 每個人都是獨自行動、散居各地 在他們的一生中 平均每五年 我們美國人就會搬一次家 因此我們的長者可能 到死都沒有和他們的小孩 朋友在一起生活 對於老年人的狀態方面 另一項不好的大改變 就是正式從職場退休 同時表示會失去同事情誼 也會失去在工作方面的自我抱負 也許最大最糟糕的改變 就是現代我們老年人客觀上 比傳統社會的老年人更沒有幫助 普遍能力顯示他們不再 像是座知識寶庫般有用 我們想要找某種資訊的時候 我們會從書裡面尋找 或上Google查詢 而不是去問一些老年人 在傳統社會 科技進步的步伐很慢 在傳統社會 科技進步的步伐很慢 表示傳統社會裡小時候所學的東西 到老都還是有用的 但是現今科技快速進步 也就表示我們小時候所學的東西 六十年過後 已經不堪使用 相反地我們老年人無法 以科技技術當作生存技能 在現代社會謀生 例如 我在十五歲的時候 大家都覺得我在多重完全數方面 運算很厲害 因為我有背乘法表 而且我知道對數函數的使用方法 用計算尺我可以很快 時至今日 這些技能完全都沒用了 因為任何一個白痴 靠著口袋型計算機 現在都可以乘上八位數 絕對準確無誤 而且馬上就能知道答案 相反地 我現在七十五歲 就連在基本的每日生活技能方面 都無法與他人競爭 1948年 我家第一次裝了電視 只有三個旋鈕 我很快就搞懂了 一個開/關機鈕、一個音量控制鈕 一個頻道選擇鈕 今天 只是要看一個電視節目 用我自己家裡的電視機收看 我就一定要用一台有41個按鍵的電視遙控器 真的是考倒我了 我還要打電話給我25歲的兒子 透過電話問他們操作方法 當我在試按那41個討厭的按鍵的時候
What can we do to improve the lives of the elderly in the U.S., and to make better use of their value? That's a huge problem. In my remaining four minutes today, I can offer just a few suggestions. One value of older people is that they are increasingly useful as grandparents for offering high-quality childcare to their grandchildren, if they choose to do it, as more young women enter the workforce and as fewer young parents of either gender stay home as full-time caretakers of their children. Compared to the usual alternatives of paid babysitters and day care centers, grandparents offer superior, motivated, experienced child care. They've already gained experience from raising their own children. They usually love their grandchildren, and are eager to spend time with them. Unlike other caregivers, grandparents don't quit their job because they found another job with higher pay looking after another baby. A second value of older people is paradoxically related to their loss of value as a result of changing world conditions and technology. At the same time, older people have gained in value today precisely because of their unique experience of living conditions that have now become rare because of rapid change, but that could come back. For example, only Americans now in their 70s or older today can remember the experience of living through a great depression, the experience of living through a world war, and agonizing whether or not dropping atomic bombs would be more horrible than the likely consequences of not dropping atomic bombs. Most of our current voters and politicians have no personal experience of any of those things, but millions of older Americans do. Unfortunately, all of those terrible situations could come back. Even if they don't come back, we have to be able to plan for them on the basis of the experience of what they were like. Older people have that experience. Younger people don't.
我們能做的就是改善美國老年人的生活 善加利用他們的價值 那真是個大問題 在我今天演講剩下的四分鐘內 我會提出一些建議 第一項老年人的價值就是 他們能逐漸展現自己的價值 當祖父母能為自己子女 提供優質的育兒照顧的時候 讓他們能夠含飴弄孫 如果他們真的想幫忙照顧的話 當更多年輕女性進入工作職場 當越來越少的年輕父母 不論是爸爸或媽媽 能在家全天候照顧他們的小孩 相較於常見的替代方案 就是花錢請保母 或將小孩送到托兒所 祖父母則能以優質環境 積極的態度 以及豐富的經驗來照顧小孩 從養育自己的小孩 他們就已經有過經驗 祖父母通常都很喜歡他們的孫子女 也很希望能夠花時間陪他們 不像其他居家照顧服務員 祖父母不會辭職 只因為找到另一份更高薪的 看護工作 這麼說有點自相矛盾 第二項老年人的價值是 與他們失去的自我價值有關 由於世界情勢改變和科技日新月異 同時 更準確來說 今天的老年人 越來越有價值 因為他們體會過的特殊生活情況 對於現在來說是很罕見的 因為社會快速變遷 但是這種情況還是有可能再次發生 例如 現在只有70歲 或70歲以上的老年人會記得 經濟大蕭條時期的生活經驗 世界大戰時期的生活經驗 那個時代的人們 都生活在痛苦與掙扎之中 不管投下原子彈會不會 比沒有投下原子彈所造成的後果更恐怖 現今我們多數的選民與政治人物 都沒有上述的那種個人生活經驗 但是數百萬計的美國老年人卻有這種經驗 不幸的是 所有糟糕的生活清況 都有可能捲土重來 即使不會再發生 我們必須也要有能力為這些情況作準備 透過長輩過去的生活經驗來當參考 老年人有那種經驗 年輕人卻沒有
The remaining value of older people that I'll mention involves recognizing that while there are many things that older people can no longer do, there are other things that they can do better than younger people. A challenge for society is to make use of those things that older people are better at doing. Some abilities, of course, decrease with age. Those include abilities at tasks requiring physical strength and stamina, ambition, and the power of novel reasoning in a circumscribed situation, such as figuring out the structure of DNA, best left to scientists under the age of 30. Conversely, valuable attributes that increase with age include experience, understanding of people and human relationships, ability to help other people without your own ego getting in the way, and interdisciplinary thinking about large databases, such as economics and comparative history, best left to scholars over the age of 60. Hence older people are much better than younger people at supervising, administering, advising, strategizing, teaching, synthesizing, and devising long-term plans. I've seen this value of older people with so many of my friends in their 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s, who are still active as investment managers, farmers, lawyers and doctors. In short, many traditional societies make better use of their elderly and give their elderly more satisfying lives than we do in modern, big societies.
老年人其餘的價值 我會提到像是 我們都知道 有許多事情老年人 都做不到 而在那些之外的事情上 他們做得 比年輕人更好 我們的社會就是該嘗試利用 老年人擅長做的事情 當然 有些能力會隨年紀遞減 當中包括各種工作技能 像是需要體力、耐力 抱負與新穎的推論能力 在受到限制的情況之下 像是計算出DNA的結構 這種工作最好還是留給30歲以下的科學家 相反地 有些很重要、珍貴的特性 只會隨著年紀增長而出現 就像是經驗 看人的眼光、人際關係 幫助其他人的能力 不會受到自尊心的攪亂 與跨領域的大範圍思考模式 像是經濟學與比較歷史學 最好還是留給60歲以上的學者 因此老年人比年輕成更擅長於 監督、管理、勸告 謀略、教導、綜合事項 策劃長期計畫 我見識過這種老年人的價值 在我許多60歲 70、80、90歲左右的朋友身上 他們現在都還很活躍 有的是當投資經理人 也有農夫、律師和醫生 簡言之 許多傳統社會 能夠有效利用老年人 給予老年人更滿意的生活環境 比我們現代的大社會環境還要好
Paradoxically nowadays, when we have more elderly people than ever before, living healthier lives and with better medical care than ever before, old age is in some respects more miserable than ever before. The lives of the elderly are widely recognized as constituting a disaster area of modern American society. We can surely do better by learning from the lives of the elderly in traditional societies. But what's true of the lives of the elderly in traditional societies is true of many other features of traditional societies as well. Of course, I'm not advocating that we all give up agriculture and metal tools and return to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. There are many obvious respects in which our lives today are far happier than those in small, traditional societies. To mention just a few examples, our lives are longer, materially much richer, and less plagued by violence than are the lives of people in traditional societies. But there are also things to be admired about people in traditional societies, and perhaps to be learned from them. Their lives are usually socially much richer than our lives, although materially poorer. Their children are more self-confident, more independent, and more socially skilled than are our children. They think more realistically about dangers than we do. They almost never die of diabetes, heart disease, stroke, and the other noncommunicable diseases that will be the causes of death of almost all of us in this room today. Features of the modern lifestyle predispose us to those diseases, and features of the traditional lifestyle protect us against them.
矛盾的是 我們現在的老年人口比以前更多 生活環境與條件比從前更好 也有更好的醫療照護 但是現在老年人 比以前更不受到尊重 大家普遍認為老年人的生活 就像在現代美國社會的 災區裡面 我們該學學 老年人在傳統社會裡扮演的角色 一定能從中獲益 但是適用於傳統社會老年人的生活型態 但是適用於傳統社會老年人的生活型態 也適用於其他各式傳統社會 也適用於其他各式傳統社會 當然 我並不主張說 我們全然放棄 拿著金屬器具下田耕作 回歸狩獵、採集的生活型態 現在有許多明顯的觀點 就是我們現在的生活遠比 小型的傳統社會還要快樂 就提幾個例子 我們的壽命越來越長 物質方面也比較富裕 也較少有暴力事件的發生 比那些生活在傳統社會的人還好 但是生活在傳統社會的人們 也有一些令人稱羨的事 也許我們也能從中學習 他們的社交生活通常比 我們的還要好 雖然他們的物質生活比較不好 傳統社會的小孩通常比較有自信 更獨立自主 更具社交技巧 比我們現代的小孩來說 對於危險事物 他們的想法比我們更實際 他們幾乎沒有因罹患糖尿病、心臟病 中風或是其他非傳染性疾病而死 今天幾乎我們所有人 都會因罹患非傳染性疾病而死亡 現代生活型態的特性就是 我們很容易感染這些疾病 但傳統生活型態的特性 卻可以保護我們免受這些疾病的侵害
Those are just some examples of what we can learn from traditional societies. I hope that you will find it as fascinating to read about traditional societies as I found it to live in those societies.
這幾項例子都是 我們能從傳統社會上學到的東西 祝您讀到本書中的傳統社會時 展閱愉快 身心獲益 就像我對住在傳統社會的老人一樣 感到驚奇無比
Thank you.
謝謝你
(Applause)
(掌聲)