To give me an idea of how many of you here may find what I'm about to tell you of practical value, let me ask you please to raise your hands: Who here is either over 65 years old or hopes to live past age 65 or has parents or grandparents who did live or have lived past 65, raise your hands please. (Laughter)
为了让我知道这里有多少人 待会儿会觉得我告诉你的事情 有实用价值, 请符合条件的人把手举起来: 这里有谁已经超过65岁 或者想要活到65岁以后 或者有父母、祖父母的岁数 达到或超过65岁, 请举手。(笑声)
Okay. You are the people to whom my talk will be of practical value. (Laughter) The rest of you won't find my talk personally relevant, but I think that you will still find the subject fascinating.
好。你们就是会发现我的演讲 有用的人。(笑声) 其他人, 不会觉得我的演讲和你有切身的关系, 但我觉得你仍会发现这个主题 非常有趣。
I'm going to talk about growing older in traditional societies. This subject constitutes just one chapter of my latest book, which compares traditional, small, tribal societies with our large, modern societies, with respect to many topics such as bringing up children, growing older, health, dealing with danger, settling disputes, religion and speaking more than one language.
我要谈一谈在传统的社会里 慢慢变老是什么样子。 这一主题是我新书的 一章,这本书在比较 传统上基于部落的小社会, 与我们现在的庞大社会之间, 在许多事情上都有很大不同, 例如后代的培养, 老年问题,健康问题、 危机处理, 领土和宗教争端等, 现在社会很多人都能说一种以上语言。
Those tribal societies, which constituted all human societies for most of human history, are far more diverse than are our modern, recent, big societies. All big societies that have governments, and where most people are strangers to each other, are inevitably similar to each other and different from tribal societies. Tribes constitute thousands of natural experiments in how to run a human society. They constitute experiments from which we ourselves may be able to learn. Tribal societies shouldn't be scorned as primitive and miserable, but also they shouldn't be romanticized as happy and peaceful. When we learn of tribal practices, some of them will horrify us, but there are other tribal practices which, when we hear about them, we may admire and envy and wonder whether we could adopt those practices ourselves.
这中小部落社会组织形式 是人类漫长历史上最主要的社会形式, 远比我们现代的,近代的大社会 更多样化。 所有具有政府的, 且大多数人互不认识的大社会, 都不可避免地相互类似 并且与部落社会不同。 部落的形成是大自然实验的结果 成千上万次的实验形成了部落的多样性。 在大自然的实验中, 部落形成的过程中 我们可以学到很多。 (我们)不应该认为部落社会 原始而悲惨的,并因此看不起它们 但也不应该觉得它们是 幸福与和平的,从而把其浪漫化。 当我们去了解部落的做法时, 有些做法会吓坏我们, 但也有其他部落的做法, 当我们听说时, 我们可能会觉得佩服和羡慕 并思考,是否我们自己, 也可以采取这些做法。
Most old people in the U.S. end up living separately from their children and from most of their friends of their earlier years, and often they live in separate retirements homes for the elderly, whereas in traditional societies, older people instead live out their lives among their children, their other relatives, and their lifelong friends. Nevertheless, the treatment of the elderly varies enormously among traditional societies, from much worse to much better than in our modern societies.
生活在美国的大多数老人,最终 都与子女分开生活 他们年轻时就认识的朋友们 也会相互分开, 他们很可能生活在单独为老人设立的养老院里, 而在传统社会中, 年纪大的人和他们的子女, 他们的其他亲戚, 以及他们认识了一辈子的朋友生活在一起。 虽然,老年人的待遇 在不同的传统社会间差别极大, 有比我们的现代社会糟糕很多的, 也有比我们的现代社会好很多的。
At the worst extreme, many traditional societies get rid of their elderly in one of four increasingly direct ways: by neglecting their elderly and not feeding or cleaning them until they die, or by abandoning them when the group moves, or by encouraging older people to commit suicide, or by killing older people. In which tribal societies do children abandon or kill their parents? It happens mainly under two conditions. One is in nomadic, hunter-gather societies that often shift camp and that are physically incapable of transporting old people who can't walk when the able-bodied younger people already have to carry their young children and all their physical possessions. The other condition is in societies living in marginal or fluctuating environments, such as the Arctic or deserts, where there are periodic food shortages, and occasionally there just isn't enough food to keep everyone alive. Whatever food is available has to be reserved for able-bodied adults and for children. To us Americans, it sounds horrible to think of abandoning or killing your own sick wife or husband or elderly mother or father, but what could those traditional societies do differently? They face a cruel situation of no choice. Their old people had to do it to their own parents, and the old people know what now is going to happen to them.
在最坏的极端,许多传统社会 通过以下四种一种比一种残忍的方式 来处理部落中的老年人: 第一种做法是忽略他们 不给他们吃的, 不打理他们,任其自生自灭, 第二种做法是在整个群体迁移时,抛弃他们, 第三种做法是迫使老人自杀, 最后, 最残忍的, 杀死老人。 到底是什么样的部落社会, 子女会抛弃或杀死他们的父母? 主要在以下两个环境下会发生。 一个情况是游牧部落,打猎和采摘为食的社会 这些部落常常需要迁移, 他们没有能力 带着无法自己迁移的老人, 四肢健全的年轻人 要携带年幼的子女 和其所有的物质财产。 另一种是生活在极端恶劣 或极端不稳定环境中的部落, 比如北极或沙漠, 这些地方有周期性的粮食短缺, 并且时不时的会有饥荒, 粮食无法满足所有人。 这种情况下, 食物必须 为健全的成年人和儿童保留。 对我们美国人来说,这听起来非常可怕, 想想抛弃或杀死 你自己生病的妻子或丈夫 或年迈的母亲或父亲, 但是,那些传统社会还可能 怎么样呢? 他们面对别无选择的残酷态势。 他们的老人都不得不对自己的父母做这样的事情, 并且老人们知道 现在什么会发生在他们身上。
At the opposite extreme in treatment of the elderly, the happy extreme, are the New Guinea farming societies where I've been doing my fieldwork for the past 50 years, and most other sedentary traditional societies around the world. In those societies, older people are cared for. They are fed. They remain valuable. And they continue to live in the same hut or else in a nearby hut near their children, relatives and lifelong friends.
在对待老人的另一个极端 这个快乐的极端, 是在新几内亚的农耕社会 ——过去 50 多年来,我在那里做野外调查—— 还有大多数其他在世界各地 定居的传统社会。 在这些社会中,老年人受到照顾。 他们被(子女)赡养。他们仍有价值。 而且他们继续住在同一屋檐下, 或是住在靠近他们子女,或其他亲属和好朋友住处 附近的小屋。
There are two main sets of reasons for this variation among societies in their treatment of old people. The variation depends especially on the usefulness of old people and on the society's values.
在不同的社会中,有这样不同的 对待老人的态度和方式, 主要有两组原因。 这种不同尤其取决于 老人依然能够体现自己的价值 以及当地社会的价值观。
First, as regards usefulness, older people continue to perform useful services. One use of older people in traditional societies is that they often are still effective at producing food. Another traditional usefulness of older people is that they are capable of babysitting their grandchildren, thereby freeing up their own adult children, the parents of those grandchildren, to go hunting and gathering food for the grandchildren. Still another traditional value of older people is in making tools, weapons, baskets, pots and textiles. In fact, they're usually the people who are best at it. Older people usually are the leaders of traditional societies, and the people most knowledgeable about politics, medicine, religion, songs and dances.
第一点是关于老人的价值, 老人可继续提供有用的服务。 在传统社会中老人的一个用处 是他们常常仍可以 生产食物。 另一种老年人的传统用处, 是他们有能力帮忙照看 他们的孙辈, 从而让其成年子女, 那些孙子们的父母, 去狩猎和采集食物给孙子们。 还有另一个老年人的传统价值 是在于制作工具、 武器、 篮子、 锅碗和纺织品。 事实上,他们通常是擅长的人。 老人通常是传统社会 的领导人, 也是在政治、医学、 宗教、 歌曲和舞蹈方面最有知识的人。
Finally, older people in traditional societies have a huge significance that would never occur to us in our modern, literate societies, where our sources of information are books and the Internet. In contrast, in traditional societies without writing, older people are the repositories of information. It's their knowledge that spells the difference between survival and death for their whole society in a time of crisis caused by rare events for which only the oldest people alive have had experience. Those, then, are the ways in which older people are useful in traditional societies. Their usefulness varies and contributes to variation in the society's treatment of the elderly.
最后,在传统社会中的老年人 具有一个巨大的,且在我们的现代文明社会中 永远不会想到的重要性, 因为我们的信息来源是书 和互联网。 相比之下,在没有文字书写的传统社会, 老人是信息的存储库。 他们的知识是其整个社会 在罕见事件引起的危机时 存亡的关键 因为唯一活着的,最年长的老人 才会有经验。 那些就是老人 在传统社会中有用的地方。 他们的用处会不同,并决定了 社会对待老人 态度的不同。
The other set of reasons for variation in the treatment of the elderly is the society's cultural values. For example, there's particular emphasis on respect for the elderly in East Asia, associated with Confucius' doctrine of filial piety, which means obedience, respect and support for elderly parents. Cultural values that emphasize respect for older people contrast with the low status of the elderly in the U.S. Older Americans are at a big disadvantage in job applications. They're at a big disadvantage in hospitals. Our hospitals have an explicit policy called age-based allocation of healthcare resources. That sinister expression means that if hospital resources are limited, for example if only one donor heart becomes available for transplant, or if a surgeon has time to operate on only a certain number of patients, American hospitals have an explicit policy of giving preference to younger patients over older patients on the grounds that younger patients are considered more valuable to society because they have more years of life ahead of them, even though the younger patients have fewer years of valuable life experience behind them. There are several reasons for this low status of the elderly in the U.S. One is our Protestant work ethic which places high value on work, so older people who are no longer working aren't respected. Another reason is our American emphasis on the virtues of self-reliance and independence, so we instinctively look down on older people who are no longer self-reliant and independent. Still a third reason is our American cult of youth, which shows up even in our advertisements. Ads for Coca-Cola and beer always depict smiling young people, even though old as well as young people buy and drink Coca-Cola and beer. Just think, what's the last time you saw a Coke or beer ad depicting smiling people 85 years old? Never. Instead, the only American ads featuring white-haired old people are ads for retirement homes and pension planning.
另一组(不同社会)对待老人 有差异的原因是 社会的文化价值观。 例如,对在东亚地区, (其文化)特别强调对老人的尊重, 这与孔子的孝道學說有关 也即是服从, 尊重并支持年迈的父母。 强调尊重老年人的文化价值观 与在美国,老人的地位低微 形成了鲜明对比。 美国老年人在工作申请中 处于很大的劣势。 他们在医院也处于很大的劣势。 我们的医院有明确的政策 称为“基于年龄分配医疗资源”。 这种政策的表述听起来充满恶意: 如果医院资源是有限的, 例如,如果只有一个捐助者的心脏 可供移植, 或者,如果一个外科医生 在一定时间中只能为少数几个患者做手术, 美国的医院有明确的政策, (这些资源)要优先给年轻的患者 而不是老年患者, 理由是年轻患者被认为 对社会更有价值 因为他们还有更多年的生活在等待他们, 即使较年轻的患者有较少的 宝贵生活经验。 美国的老人地位如此低 有几个原因。 一是我们新教的工作伦理 这个伦理给予“工作”很大的价值, 所以不再能工作的老年人 不被尊重。 另一个原因是我们美国人强调 自主和独立的美德 所以我们本能地看不起 不再自力更生而独立的老年人。 第三个原因是我们美国式的,对年轻的崇拜, 甚至在我们的广告中就显示了这点。 可口可乐和啤酒的广告总是描绘 微笑着的年轻人, 即使老人象年轻人一样 会去买可口可乐和啤酒。 想一想,你最后一次看到 可乐或者啤酒的广告描绘微笑着的 85 岁老人是什么时候?从来没有。 相反,唯一以白发老人 为主角的美国广告 是眼泪院和养老计划的广告。
Well, what has changed in the status of the elderly today compared to their status in traditional societies? There have been a few changes for the better and more changes for the worse. Big changes for the better include the fact that today we enjoy much longer lives, much better health in our old age, and much better recreational opportunities. Another change for the better is that we now have specialized retirement facilities and programs to take care of old people. Changes for the worse begin with the cruel reality that we now have more old people and fewer young people than at any time in the past. That means that all those old people are more of a burden on the few young people, and that each old person has less individual value. Another big change for the worse in the status of the elderly is the breaking of social ties with age, because older people, their children, and their friends, all move and scatter independently of each other many times during their lives. We Americans move on the average every five years. Hence our older people are likely to end up living distant from their children and the friends of their youth. Yet another change for the worse in the status of the elderly is formal retirement from the workforce, carrying with it a loss of work friendships and a loss of the self-esteem associated with work. Perhaps the biggest change for the worse is that our elderly are objectively less useful than in traditional societies. Widespread literacy means that they are no longer useful as repositories of knowledge. When we want some information, we look it up in a book or we Google it instead of finding some old person to ask. The slow pace of technological change in traditional societies means that what someone learns there as a child is still useful when that person is old, but the rapid pace of technological change today means that what we learn as children is no longer useful 60 years later. And conversely, we older people are not fluent in the technologies essential for surviving in modern society. For example, as a 15-year-old, I was considered outstandingly good at multiplying numbers because I had memorized the multiplication tables and I know how to use logarithms and I'm quick at manipulating a slide rule. Today, though, those skills are utterly useless because any idiot can now multiply eight-digit numbers accurately and instantly with a pocket calculator. Conversely, I at age 75 am incompetent at skills essential for everyday life. My family's first TV set in 1948 had only three knobs that I quickly mastered: an on-off switch, a volume knob, and a channel selector knob. Today, just to watch a program on the TV set in my own house, I have to operate a 41-button TV remote that utterly defeats me. I have to telephone my 25-year-old sons and ask them to talk me through it while I try to push those wretched 41 buttons.
今天老人的地位 与他们在传统社会中的地位 相比起来有什么变化? 有一些好的变化 更多的方面变得更糟糕了。 好的变化中,大的方面 包括今天我们享受 更长的生命这一事实, 我们比过去的老年人更健康, 和有更好地娱乐的机会。 另一个更好的变化是,我们现在有 专门的退休设施 和政策来照顾老人们。 更糟的变化开始于 我们现在,比以往任何时候 都有更多的老人和更少的年轻人 这一残酷现实。 这意味着,那些老人 对这些较少的年轻来说是个负担, 并且每个老人的个体价值也就更少。 另一个老年人地位恶化的大变化是 随着年龄的增长,社会纽带的断裂, 因为老人,他们的孩子, 和他们的朋友, 在他们的生命过程中多次搬家 并彼此独立地四散各处。 我们美国人平均 每五年就搬家一次。 因此我们的老人很有可能 最终生活在远离他们的孩子 和他们青年时期朋友的地方。 另一个老年人地位恶化的变化是 从劳动力中正式退休, 同时失去在工作中建立的友谊 以及从工作而来的自尊。 或许,最大的(老人地位)恶化的改变是 我们的老人都客观地 相比在传统社会中没那么有用了。 文化普及意味着他们不再 是有用的知识宝库。 当我们想要某些信息时, 我们从书里面查,或是上网搜索 而不是询问老人。 在传统社会中, 技术变革的缓慢速度 意味着在孩童时代学习的东西 在老年时仍然有用 而今天技术的快速改变 意味着我们在孩童时代学习的东西 60 年后已经不再有用。 反过来,我们老人对于 现代社会中生存必需的技术 并不擅长。 例如,做为 一个15 岁的孩子, 别人觉得我非常擅长乘法 因为我记得乘法表, 知道如何使用对数, 并且可以快速地操作计算尺。 然而,今天,这些技能基本完全无用 因为任何一个白痴 也可以将八位数的数字 准确快速地用一个袖珍计算器相乘。 相反地,我在75 岁时 无法驾驭日常生活中 所必须的技能。 我家1948 年的第一台电视 只有三个旋钮,我很快就掌握了要如何使用: 一个电源开关,一个音量旋钮 和一个频道选择钮。 今天,为了要在我自家的 电视上看个节目, 我必须要操作一个 41钮的电视遥控器, 这完全难倒了我。 我只好打电话给我 25 岁的儿子们 让他们在电话里一步一步地告诉我 怎么操作那些可悲的 41个按钮。
What can we do to improve the lives of the elderly in the U.S., and to make better use of their value? That's a huge problem. In my remaining four minutes today, I can offer just a few suggestions. One value of older people is that they are increasingly useful as grandparents for offering high-quality childcare to their grandchildren, if they choose to do it, as more young women enter the workforce and as fewer young parents of either gender stay home as full-time caretakers of their children. Compared to the usual alternatives of paid babysitters and day care centers, grandparents offer superior, motivated, experienced child care. They've already gained experience from raising their own children. They usually love their grandchildren, and are eager to spend time with them. Unlike other caregivers, grandparents don't quit their job because they found another job with higher pay looking after another baby. A second value of older people is paradoxically related to their loss of value as a result of changing world conditions and technology. At the same time, older people have gained in value today precisely because of their unique experience of living conditions that have now become rare because of rapid change, but that could come back. For example, only Americans now in their 70s or older today can remember the experience of living through a great depression, the experience of living through a world war, and agonizing whether or not dropping atomic bombs would be more horrible than the likely consequences of not dropping atomic bombs. Most of our current voters and politicians have no personal experience of any of those things, but millions of older Americans do. Unfortunately, all of those terrible situations could come back. Even if they don't come back, we have to be able to plan for them on the basis of the experience of what they were like. Older people have that experience. Younger people don't.
我们可以做些什么来改善在美国的老人的生活 和更好地利用他们的价值吗? 这是一个巨大的问题。 在我今天剩下的四分钟内, 我仅能提供几个建议。 老人的一个价值是他们 作为祖父母, 在为其孙辈提供高品质的儿童照顾上 越来越有用,如果他们选择做这件事, 因为越来越多的年轻妇女参与劳动 以及越来越少的年轻父母中任一一方 留在家里全职照顾他们的孩子。 相比于常见的 带薪保姆和托儿所这些选择, 祖父母提供更优越,更有动力的, 经验丰富的儿童照顾。 他们已经从养育自己的孩子中取得了经验。 他们通常爱他们的孙辈, 并渴望能花时间和他们在一起。 与其他护理人员不同, 爷爷奶奶不会因为 找到了另一份收入更高的 照顾另一个孩子的工作而辞职。 老年人的第二个价值,矛盾的是 与其因世界状况和技术的变化 造成的价值损失有关。 与此同时,老人们获得了 今天的价值恰恰是因为 他们在那些如今已经罕见的生活状况上 的独特经验 这些情况由于快速的变化而变得罕见,但有可能会再出现。 例如,只有70多岁或更老的美国人 今天会记得 在大萧条中存活的经验, 在世界大战中存活的经验, 和烦恼到底是 扔原子炸弹的后果比较严重 还是不扔原子弹可能出现的后果比较严重。 大多数我们当前的选民和政治家 都没有亲身经历过这些事情, 但数以百万计的美国老年人经历过。 不幸的是,所有这些可怕的情况 都有可能再发生。 即使它们不再发生, 我们必须能够为此做好准备 基于经验所知的状况。 老人们有这个经验。 但年轻人没有。
The remaining value of older people that I'll mention involves recognizing that while there are many things that older people can no longer do, there are other things that they can do better than younger people. A challenge for society is to make use of those things that older people are better at doing. Some abilities, of course, decrease with age. Those include abilities at tasks requiring physical strength and stamina, ambition, and the power of novel reasoning in a circumscribed situation, such as figuring out the structure of DNA, best left to scientists under the age of 30. Conversely, valuable attributes that increase with age include experience, understanding of people and human relationships, ability to help other people without your own ego getting in the way, and interdisciplinary thinking about large databases, such as economics and comparative history, best left to scholars over the age of 60. Hence older people are much better than younger people at supervising, administering, advising, strategizing, teaching, synthesizing, and devising long-term plans. I've seen this value of older people with so many of my friends in their 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s, who are still active as investment managers, farmers, lawyers and doctors. In short, many traditional societies make better use of their elderly and give their elderly more satisfying lives than we do in modern, big societies.
我将要提到的老人的其他价值 是关于(我们需要)认识到 虽然有很多事情,老人 不能再做了, 但也有其他的事情,他们仍可以做 得比年轻人更好。 社会面临的一个挑战就是要利用那些 老人能做得更好事情。 当然,一些能力会随着年龄的增长而变差。 这些包括完成 需要体力和耐力, 野心及在特定情况下有创意的推理力 的这类任务的能力, 如想出DNA的结构, 最好还是留给30岁以下的科学家去做。 相反的,随着年龄的增加 会更有价值的,包括经验, 了解人和人之间的关系, 不被自我意识影响地 去帮助其他人, 以及跨学科地思考大型数据库的能力, 如经济学和比较历史等事情, 最好留给年龄超过 60 岁的学者来做。 因此,老年人比年轻人 在监督、 管理、 咨询、 战略规划、 教学、综合, 及制定长期计划上更擅长。 我在老年人身上看到这个价值 包括我那些60多岁, 70多岁,80多岁和90多岁的朋友们, 这些人依然是活跃的投资管理人, 农民、 律师和医生。 总之,许多传统社会 比我们现代化大社会, 更好地利用他们的老年人 也给老人更满足的生活。
Paradoxically nowadays, when we have more elderly people than ever before, living healthier lives and with better medical care than ever before, old age is in some respects more miserable than ever before. The lives of the elderly are widely recognized as constituting a disaster area of modern American society. We can surely do better by learning from the lives of the elderly in traditional societies. But what's true of the lives of the elderly in traditional societies is true of many other features of traditional societies as well. Of course, I'm not advocating that we all give up agriculture and metal tools and return to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. There are many obvious respects in which our lives today are far happier than those in small, traditional societies. To mention just a few examples, our lives are longer, materially much richer, and less plagued by violence than are the lives of people in traditional societies. But there are also things to be admired about people in traditional societies, and perhaps to be learned from them. Their lives are usually socially much richer than our lives, although materially poorer. Their children are more self-confident, more independent, and more socially skilled than are our children. They think more realistically about dangers than we do. They almost never die of diabetes, heart disease, stroke, and the other noncommunicable diseases that will be the causes of death of almost all of us in this room today. Features of the modern lifestyle predispose us to those diseases, and features of the traditional lifestyle protect us against them.
矛盾的是,现在, 当我们比以往任何时候, 有更多的老年人健康地生活 和有更好的医疗照顾, 变老在某些方面反而 比以往任何时候更惨。 老人生活状态被公认 构成了现代美国社会 的一个灾难性的部分。 我们当然可以做得更好, 通过学习在传统的社会中 老人的生活。 但,对传统社会 老人生活来说是对的事情, 对许多其他 传统社会的特点来说也是对的。 当然,我不主张我们都放弃 农业和金属工具 并返回狩猎采集的生活方式。 在许多明显的方面 我们今天的生活远比 在那些小的、 传统的社会更快乐。 举几个例子, 比在传统社会中人的生活。 我们活得更久,物质更丰富, 也少受暴力迫害。 但传统社会中的人们 的一些事情也值得敬佩, 或许应该向他们学习。 他们的生活通常在社交上 比我们的生活更丰富 虽然物质上比较贫乏。 他们的孩子们更自信 更独立,和在社会上更熟练, 比起我们的孩子。 他们比我们更实际地对待危险。 他们几乎从来不会死于糖尿病、 心脏病、 中风和其他非传染性疾病, 而这些将会是我们今天 在这里的所有人的死因。 现代生活方式的特点让我们更容易患上这些疾病, 而传统生活方式的特点 保护我们免受这些疾病的伤害。
Those are just some examples of what we can learn from traditional societies. I hope that you will find it as fascinating to read about traditional societies as I found it to live in those societies.
这些只是几个例子来说明我们能 从传统社会中学习什么。 我希望你会发现, 了解传统社会 和我觉得在这些社会中生活一样引人入胜。
Thank you.
谢谢。
(Applause)
(掌声)