Chris Anderson: Dr. Jane Goodall, welcome.
克里斯·安德森: 珍·古道尔博士,欢迎您。
Jane Goodall: Thank you, and I think, you know, we couldn't have a complete interview unless people know Mr. H is with me, because everybody knows Mr. H.
珍·古道尔:谢谢, 我想让大家知道, H 先生(珍的玩偶猩猩)也在这里 不然这就谈不上是完整的访谈了, 因为大家可都认识 H 先生。
CA: Hello, Mr. H. In your TED Talk 17 years ago, you warned us about the dangers of humans crowding out the natural world. Is there any sense in which you feel that the current pandemic is kind of, nature striking back?
克里斯:你好,H 先生。 珍,在您 17 年前的 TED 演讲中, 您警示了我们, 人类有可能过度挤占大自然。 您是否会觉得 目前的新冠流行疾病, 就有点像大自然对人类的回击?
JG: It's very, very clear that these zoonotic diseases, like the corona and HIV/AIDS and all sorts of other diseases that we catch from animals, that's partly to do with destruction of the environment, which, as animals lose habitat, they get crowded together and sometimes that means that a virus from a reservoir species, where it's lived harmoniously for maybe hundreds of years, jumps into a new species, then you also get animals being pushed into closer contact with humans. And sometimes one of these animals that has caught a virus can -- you know, provides the opportunity for that virus to jump into people and create a new disease, like COVID-19. And in addition to that, we are so disrespecting animals. We hunt them, we kill them, we eat them, we traffic them, we send them off to the wild-animal markets in Asia, where they're in terrible, cramped conditions, in tiny cages, with people being contaminated with blood and urine and feces, ideal conditions for a virus to spill from an animal to an animal, or an animal to a person.
珍:很显然的一点是, 这些人畜共患的疾病, 比如新冠和艾滋病, 还有各种其他的 人类从动物身上感染的疾病, 这里面有一部分和环境破坏有关。 当不同种类的动物都失去栖息地后 它们只能挤在一起生活, 于是有时候, 一些已经有固定宿主的病毒, 它们已经和宿主共存了几百年, 就在这时被传播到另一物种身上。 另外呢,有时候动物 也被迫和人类更密切地接触。 有时这些动物感染到了病毒, 病毒就有可能被传播给人类, 并产生新的疾病, 就跟 COVID-19 一样。 另外, 人类对动物是极其不尊重的。 人类会捕猎动物、 杀害动物、以动物为食。 我们走私动物。 我们将它们送到亚洲的 野生动物市场中。 它们被关在狭小的笼子里。 那里环境恶劣、拥挤, 附近的人被血液和排泄物感染, 是病毒在动物之间传播的理想环境, 亦或者从动物传人。
CA: I'd love to just dip backwards in time for a bit, because your story is so extraordinary. I mean, despite the arguably even more sexist attitudes of the 1960s, somehow you were able to break through and become one of the world's leading scientists, discovering this astonishing series of facts about chimpanzees, such as their tool use and so much more. What was it about you, do you think, that allowed you to make such a breakthrough?
克里斯:我想把时间往回拨一点, 因为您的人生故事实在太特别了。 虽然上世纪六十年代有着 可以说比现在更严重的性别歧视 但您却能够突破这些障碍 成为了世界领先的科学家, 并在黑猩猩研究领域 做出了一系列惊人的发现。 比如它们对于工具的使用等等 您觉得是什么原因, 让您取得了如此突破性的成就?
JG: Well, the thing is, I was born loving animals, and the most important thing was, I had a very supportive mother. She didn't get mad when she found earthworms in my bed, she just said they better be in the garden. And she didn't get mad when I disappeared for four hours and she called the police, and I was sitting in a hen house, because nobody would tell me where the hole was where the egg came out.
珍:是这样的, 我生来就喜欢动物 而且最重要的是, 我有一个非常支持我的母亲。 在我床上发现蚯蚓时,她没有发火 她只说:“蚯蚓最好 还是待在花园里” 有一次我失踪了四小时, 她也没有生气。 她报了警, 而我其实一直坐在鸡舍里。 因为没人愿意告诉我, 鸡蛋是从鸡身上的哪个洞里出来的。
I had no dream of being a scientist, because women didn't do that sort of thing. In fact, there weren't any man doing it back then, either. And everybody laughed at me except Mom, who said, "If you really want this, you're going to have to work awfully hard, take advantage of every opportunity, if you don't give up, maybe you'll find a way."
我当时并没有梦想成为科学家, 因为当时的女人 一般不从事这类工作。 其实那时甚至也没有什么男人 做这类工作。 当时的所有人都在笑我, 除了我的母亲。 她说:“如果你真心想当科学家 那么你一定要竭尽全力 把握住每一个机会。 如果你永不放弃, 也许就能找到方法。”
CA: And somehow, you were able to kind of, earn the trust of chimpanzees in the way that no one else had. Looking back, what were the most exciting moments that you discovered or what is it that people still don't get about chimpanzees?
克里斯:您以某种方法 赢得了黑猩猩们的信赖, 一种前无古人的方法。 现在想起来, 那些发现是让您最激动的? 或者说,有哪些关于黑猩猩的事情 是人类尚未了解的?
JG: Well, the thing is, you say, "See things nobody else had, get their trust." Nobody else had tried. Quite honestly. So, basically, I used the same techniques that I had to study the animals around my home when I was a child. Just sitting, patiently, not trying to get too close too quickly, but it was awful, because the money was only for six months. I mean, you can imagine how difficult to get money for a young girl with no degree, to go and do something as bizarre as sitting in a forest. And you know, finally, we got money for six months from an American philanthropist, and I knew with time I'd get the chimps' trust, but did I have time? And weeks became months and then finally, after about four months, one chimpanzee began to lose his fear, and it was he that on one occasion I saw -- I still wasn't really close, but I had my binoculars -- and I saw him using and making tools to fish for termites. And although I wasn't terribly surprised, because I've read about things captive chimps could do -- but I knew that science believed that humans, and only humans, used and made tools. And I knew how excited [Dr. Louis] Leakey would be. And it was that observation that enabled him to go to the National Geographic, and they said, "OK, we'll continue to support the research," and they sent Hugo van Lawick, the photographer-filmmaker, to record what I was seeing. So a lot of scientists didn't want to believe the tool-using. In fact, one of them said I must have taught the chimps.
珍:你说“发现前人 没发现过的东西“, 去“博得它们的信任”。 但是根本没有人尝试过类似的事情。 说实话就是这样。 简单来说,我使用的技巧 和我儿时在家附近 研究动物的技巧一样。 坐着,耐心坐着, 不要试图靠得太近,动得太快。 但当时情况很糟糕, 因为我只有 6 个月的经费。 你可以想象一下, 当时我要拿到钱有多难。 作为一个年轻女孩, 连大学学位也没有。 还是这种干坐在树林里的奇怪工作。 然后你知道嘛,最后 我们从一位美国慈善家那里 又得到了 6 个月的经费。 我知道只要时间足够, 我就能获得黑猩猩的信任 但我真的有时间吗? 从几个星期拉长到几个月, 最后大概 4 个月后 其中一只黑猩猩开始放下他的恐惧。 就是在这只黑猩猩身上, 我偶然看到—— 我当时仍然没有靠太近, 但我有望远镜—— 我看到他在制作工具来抓白蚁。 虽然当时我并没有那么吃惊, 因为我在书上读过 圈养的黑猩猩能做的事情。 但我知道当时的科学界普遍认为 有且只有人类能使用并制作工具。 我知道路易斯·利基博士 (Louis Leakey)该会有多激动。 也正是这次观察, 让他能够去联系到《国家地理》。 然后他们说: “好,我们会继续资助这项研究。” 他们还派了雨果·范·勒维, (Hugo van Lawick)作为摄影兼导演, 来记录我看到的景象。 当时很多科学家不愿相信 黑猩猩使用工具的这件事儿。 其实有人还说, 一定是我教给黑猩猩的。
(Laughter)
(笑声)
Since I couldn't get near them, it would have been a miracle. But anyway, once they saw Hugo's film and that with all my descriptions of their behavior, the scientists had to start changing their minds.
我当时根本没法儿靠近黑猩猩, 要真是我教的那就是奇迹了。 总之当他们看到了雨果拍的影片, 再加上我对黑猩猩行为的记述, 科学家们就不得不开始转变想法了。
CA: And since then, numerous other discoveries that placed chimpanzees much closer to humans than people cared to believe. I think I saw you say at one point that they have a sense of humor. How have you seen that expressed?
克里斯:而且从那以后, 很多类似的发现开始涌现。 这证实了黑猩猩与人类的关系 比人们曾以为的要密切得多。 我好像还记得您还曾经说过, 黑猩猩有幽默感。 您是怎么看出来幽默感的?
JG: Well, you see it when they're playing games, and there's a bigger one playing with a little one, and he's trailing a vine around a tree. And every time the little one is about to catch it, the bigger one pulls it away, and the little one starts crying and the big one starts laughing. So, you know.
珍:他们在玩游戏的时候, 你就能看出来。 有时一个大的和一个小的一起玩, 那只大的在树上缠一根藤蔓, 每次小的快要抓到藤蔓的时候, 大的就会把藤蔓拉走。 那只小的就会开始哭, 大的就会哈哈大笑。 嗯,所以嘛。 (笑声)
CA: And then, Jane, you observed something much more troubling, which was these instances of chimpanzee gangs, tribes, groups, being brutally violent to each other. I'm curious how you process that. And whether it made you, kind of, I don't know, depressed about us, we're close to them, did it make you feel that violence is irredeemably part of all the great apes, somehow?
克里斯:珍,您应该还观察到了 一些更叫人担心的事情。 比如有时候,黑猩猩的帮派之间 或者部落、族群之间 残酷的暴力冲突。 我很好奇您是怎么看这件事的。 然后,这会不会让您有点 对人类产生担忧, 毕竟我们跟黑猩猩很相近。 你会不会觉得, 这种暴力就是没法改变的, 就是猿猴类动物的某种天性呢?
JG: Well, it obviously is. And my first encounter with human, what I call evil, was the end of the war and the pictures from the Holocaust. And you know, that really shocked me. That changed who I was. I was 10, I think, at the time. And when the chimpanzees, when I realized they have this dark, brutal side, I thought they were like us but nicer. And then I realized they're even more like us than I had thought. And at that time, in the early '70s, it was very strange, aggression, there was a big thing about, is aggression innate or learned. And it became political. And it was, I don't know, it was a very strange time, and I was coming out, saying, "No, I think aggression is definitely part of our inherited repertoire of behaviors." And I asked a very respected scientist what he really thought, because he was coming out on the clean slate, aggression is learned, and he said, "Jane, I'd rather not talk about what I really think." That was a big shock as far as science was concerned for me.
珍:显然是的。 我第一次认识到人类的“邪恶”。 就是战争(第二次世界大战)结束时 我看到的那些 关于纳粹大屠杀的照片, 那些场景深深震撼了我, 那些场景改变了我。 我记得当时我应该才 10 岁。 而关于黑猩猩, 当我意识到他们也有 这种黑暗、残忍的一面时。 我就觉得他们和人类很像, 但可能要比我们好一些。 然后我意识到它们比我所以为的 更像人类。 在那个时候, 也就是 70 年代早期, 那是很奇怪的。 大家当时都在讨论侵略性, 大家想知道侵略性 是先天还是后天的。 这种讨论延伸到了政治方面。 那真的是一个很奇特的年代。 当时我站出来说: “不,我认为人的侵略性绝对是 人类固有的一种行为方式。” 我还请教了一位受人尊敬的科学家, 问他到底怎么想的。 因为他当时抛开过去的立场, 声称侵略性是后天的。 他说:珍,我不太想说 我真心是怎么想的。 就科学的角度而言, 这句话震惊到了我。
CA: I was brought up to believe a world of all things bright and beautiful. You know, numerous beautiful films of butterflies and bees and flowers, and you know, nature as this gorgeous landscape. And many environmentalists often seem to take the stance, "Yes, nature is pure, nature is beautiful, humans are bad," but then you have the kind of observations that you see, when you actually look at any part of nature in more detail, you see things to be terrified by, honestly. What do you make of nature, how do you think of it, how should we think of it?
克里斯:我从小接受的教育要我相信 世界上的所有东西都是光明美好的。 有不少美好的电影, 美丽的蝴蝶、蜜蜂、花朵等等。 大自然有着如此华丽的风景。 有很多的环保主义者 似乎都持着这样的观点。 “没错,自然就是纯洁的,美丽的, 而人类则是邪恶的。” 但是有时候, 你也会观察到这样的现象。 当你更仔细地观察大自然时, 你就会发现一些让你恐惧的东西。 那么请问您是如何看待大自然的, 我们又应该如何看待大自然呢。
JG: Nature is, you know, I mean, you think of the whole spectrum of evolution, and there's something about going to a pristine place, and Africa was very pristine when I was young. And there were animals everywhere. And I never liked the fact that lions killed, they have to, I mean, that's what they do, if they didn't kill animals, they would die. And the big difference between them and us, I think, is that they do what they do because that's what they have to do. And we can plan to do things. Our plans are very different. We can plan to cut down a whole forest, because we want to sell the timber, or because we want to build another shopping mall, something like that. So our destruction of nature and our warfare, we're capable of evil because we can sit comfortably and plan the torture of somebody far away. That's evil. Chimpanzees have a sort of primitive war, and they can be very aggressive, but it's of the moment. It's how they feel. It's response to an emotion.
珍:大自然是这样的。 如果你想想整个进化的历程。 一个原始的地方会给你 带来一种特殊的感觉。 在我年轻的时候, 非洲就是这样一个原始的地方。 那时的非洲,到处都是动物。 我从来都不喜欢狮子的猎杀。 但它们必须要猎杀, 那是天性使然。 如果它们不去杀动物, 就没法生存下去了。 我觉得人类和动物 很大的区别就是: 动物这么做 是因为它们必须要这么做, 但是我们却可以有计划地做事。 我们的计划可以是非常不一样的。 我们可能计划砍掉整片森林, 就因为想要贩卖木材, 或者想要再建一座购物中心, 之类的。 包括人类的的战争、对自然的破坏 人类邪恶就邪恶在 他们可以人在家中坐, 同时计划着对千里之外的人作恶。 这才是恶。 黑猩猩之间确实会有 某种原始的战争, 也确实可以很有攻击性。 但这些都是暂时的, 是由它们的感觉支配的, 只是一种情绪上的反应。
CA: So your observation of the sophistication of chimpanzees doesn't go as far as what some people would want to say is the sort of the human superpower, of being able to really simulate the future in our minds in great detail and make long-term plans. And act to encourage each other to achieve those long-term plans. That that feels, even to someone who spent so much time with chimpanzees, that feels like a fundamentally different skill set that we just have to take responsibility for and use much more wisely than we do.
克里斯:所以您观察到的黑猩猩的智慧 并不像某些人认为的那么夸张: 说是接近人类的超级智慧, 能够在脑子里细枝末节地思考未来, 做长期的计划。 甚至互相鼓励来实现长期计划。 对于向您一样 和黑猩猩长时间相处的人来说, 它们的智慧是一套 根本上不同的技能, 这种技能我们也拥有, 但我们要更明智地去使用。
JG: Yes, and I personally think, I mean, there's a lot of discussion about this, but I think it's a fact that we developed the way of communication that you and I are using. And because we have words, I mean, animal communication is way more sophisticated than we used to think. And chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans can learn human sign language of the Deaf. But we sort of grow up speaking whatever language it is. So I can tell you about things that you've never heard of. And a chimpanzee couldn't do that. And we can teach our children about abstract things. And chimpanzees couldn't do that. So yes, chimpanzees can do all sorts of clever things, and so can elephants and so can crows and so can octopuses, but we design rockets that go off to another planet and little robots taking photographs, and we've designed this extraordinary way of you and me talking in our different parts of the world. When I was young, when I grew up, there was no TV, there were no cell phones, there was no computers. It was such a different world, I had a pencil, pen and notebook, that was it.
珍:没错,而且我个人认为 确实有很多人在讨论这个问题, 但是我认为关键在于 人类发展出了一种独特的交流方式, 就是你我正在使用的这种。 我们有语言。 其实动物的交流是非常复杂的, 比我们过去以为的要复杂。 而且黑猩猩、大猩猩和红毛猩猩 可以学习聋哑人的手语。 但是我们人类从小 就使用自己的语言系统。 所以我可以向你抽象地描述 你从来没有听过的东西, 而黑猩猩则不行。 我们可以教给我们的孩子 一些抽象的东西, 而黑猩猩则不行。 所以虽然黑猩猩 可以做很多聪明的事情, 包括大象、乌鸦、章鱼也都可以。 但是人类却可以设计出火箭, 飞到其他星球去, 可以设计出会拍照的小机器人。 人类还创造了一种非凡的沟通方式, 让你我可以相隔千里交谈。 我年轻的时候 没有电视,没有手机, 也没有电脑。 那是一个和现在完全不同的世界。 我只有一支铅笔、一支钢笔、 一本笔记本,仅此而已。
CA: So just going back to this question about nature, because I think about this a lot, and I struggle with this, honestly. So much of your work, so much of so many people who I respect, is about this passion for trying not to screw up the natural world. So is it possible, is it healthy, is it essential, perhaps, to simultaneously accept that many aspects of nature are terrifying, but also, I don't know, that it's awesome, and that some of the awesomeness comes from its potential to be terrifying and that it is also just breathtakingly beautiful, and that we cannot be ourselves, because we are part of nature, we cannot be whole unless we somehow embrace it and are part of it? Help me with the language, Jane, on how that relationship should be.
克里斯:我们再回到关于自然的问题, 因为我经常思考这个问题。 说实话,我也很纠结。 您的很多工作成果, 还有很多我很尊敬的人 都竭尽全力,不让大自然变得更糟。 那么我们是否有可能, 或者说是否需要,用健康的心态 去相应地接受大自然的方方面面, 它可怕的一面, 当然还有它好的一面。 而一些惊人的方面 是建立在它潜在的恐怖上的。 大自然美得令人窒息, 而人类也不仅仅是人, 人类也是自然的一部分。 人类自身是不完整的, 除非人类去体会自然, 成为自然的一部分。 珍,帮我想想我该怎么说。 人与自然的关系应该是什么样的?
JG: Well, I think one of the problems is, you know, as we developed our intellect, and we became better and better at modifying the environment for our own use, and creating fields and growing crops where it used to be forest or woodland, and you know, we won't go into that now, but we have this ability to change nature. And as we've moved more into towns and cities, and relied more on technology, many people feel so divorced from the natural world. And there's hundreds, thousands of children growing up in inner cities, where there basically isn't any nature, which is why this movement now to green our cities is so important. And you know, they've done experiments, I think it was in Chicago, I'm not quite sure, and there were various empty lots in a very violent part of town. So in some of those areas they made it green, they put trees and flowers and things, shrubs in these vacant lots. And the crime rate went right down. So then of course, they put trees in the other half. So it just shows, and also, there have been studies done showing that children really need green nature for good psychological development.
珍:我觉得问题在于 随着人类的智慧不断发展, 我们越来越擅长于 改变自然环境,为我们所用。 人类开辟土地来种植庄稼, 而这些土地从前是树林、林地。 当然我们先不讨论这些, 但是人类确实有改变自然的能力。 随着越来越多人搬进城镇, 人类越来越依靠科技的力量。 许多人感到和自然如此疏远。 成百上千的孩子们 都在市中心长大, 基本上和大自然没有任何接触。 所以眼下城市绿化就非常重要。 已经有人在这方面做了各种实验, 我记得是在芝加哥吧, 我不是很确定。 在那里有各种各样的城市空地, 位于城市治安很不稳定的地方。 所以他们选了一部分空地做了绿化, 在这些空地上种了 树木、花朵和各种灌木等等。 这些地方的犯罪率马上就下降了。 当然在这之后 他们把其他地方也种上了树。 不仅如此, 有研究表明 孩子的心理健康 和大自然息息相关。
But we are, as you say, part of nature and we disrespect it, as we are, and that is so terrible for our children and our children's children, because we rely on nature for clean air, clean water, for regulating climate and rainfall. Look what we've done, look at the climate crisis. That's us. We did that.
但正如你所说的 我们是自然的一部分, 而我们自己却不尊重它。 这对我们的孩子 以及我们孩子的下一代来说 太糟糕了。 我们依靠大自然 获取干净的空气和水, 我们需要自然界调节气候和降雨。 看看我们做了什么, 看看这些气候危机。 这就是我们的所作所为。
CA: So a little over 30 years ago, you made this shift from scientist mainly to activist mainly, I guess. Why?
克里斯:在 30 多年前, 您的工作重心从一名科学家 转变为一名社会活动家, 这是为什么?
JG: Conference in 1986, scientific one, I'd got my PhD by then and it was to find out how chimp behavior differed, if it did, from one environment to another. There were six study sites across Africa. So we thought, let’s bring these scientists together and explore this, which was fascinating. But we also had a session on conservation and a session on conditions in some captive situations like medical research. And those two sessions were so shocking to me. I went to the conference a a scientist, and I left as an activist. I didn't make the decision, something happened inside me.
珍:在 1986 年的科学峰会后 我取得了博士学位。 这个峰会的目的是找出黑猩猩是否 在不同环境有行为差异。 在整个非洲有 6 个研究基地。 我们就想把这些科学家 集中在一起 研究这件事。 想想就很吸引人。 我们还参加了 一场关于自然保护区的会议, 和一场关于用于医药研究等的 动物圈养的会议。 这 2 场会议 对我造成的冲击太大。 以至于我以一名科学家的心态前去, 会议结束时, 我成了一名社会活动家。 我没有刻意做这个决定, 只是我的心态有了变化。
CA: So you spent the last 34 years sort of tirelessly campaigning for a better relationship between people and nature. What should that relationship look like?
克里斯: 所以在过去的 34 年里, 您不知疲倦地宣传 提倡改善人与自然的关系。 这应该是段怎样的关系呢?
JG: Well, you know, again you come up with all these problems. People have to have space to live. But I think the problem is that we've become, in the affluent societies, too greedy. I mean, honestly, who needs four houses with huge grounds? And why do we need yet another shopping mall? And so on and so on. So we are looking at short-term economic benefit, money has become a sort of god to worship, as we lose all spiritual connection with the natural world. And so we're looking for short-term monetary gain, or power, rather than the health of the planet and the future of our children. We don't seem to care about that anymore. That's why I'll never stop fighting.
珍:你又一次点明了这些问题。 人们必须要有生存的空间。 但是我认为问题在于 在富足的社会中 我们变得太过贪婪。 谁需要 4 栋房子加一大块草场? 为什么我们还要建更多的商场? 诸如此类。 我们只盯着短期的经济效益, 金钱成为了我们崇拜的神明。 同时我们也失去了和自然界 所有的精神链接。 所以我们在追寻的是 短期的经济利益或者权力, 而不是这个星球的健康 和我们孩子的未来。 人类对这些事情毫不关心, 这就是我从未停止努力的原因。
CA: I mean, in your work specifically on chimpanzee conservation, you've made it practice to put people at the center of that, local people, to engage them. How has that worked and do you think that's an essential idea if we're to succeed in protecting the planet?
克里斯:我是说, 在您专门研究的黑猩猩保护方面, 您将人作为主体, 让当地人参与其中。 这是否奏效呢? 如果我们想成功保护地球, 这是否是其中的一个重要部分?
JG: You know, after that famous conference, I thought, well, I must learn more about why chimps are vanishing in Africa and what's happening to the forest. So I got a bit of money together and went out to visit six range countries. And learned a lot about the problems faced by chimps, you know, hunting for bushmeat and the live animal trade and caught in snares and human populations growing and needing more land for their crops and their cattle and their villages. But I was also learning about the plight faced by so many people. The absolute poverty, the lack of health and education, the degradation of the land. And it came to a head when I flew over the tiny Gombe National Park. It had been part of this equatorial forest belt right across Africa to the west coast, and in 1990, it was just this little island of forest, just tiny national park. All around, the hills were bare. And that's when it hit me. If we don't do something to help the people find ways of living without destroying their environment, we can't even try to save the chimps. So the Jane Goodall Institute began this program "Take Care," we call it "TACARE." And it's our method of community-based conservation, totally holistic. And we've now put the tools of conservation into the hand of the villagers, because most Tanzanian wild chimps are not in protected areas, they're just in the village forest reserves. And so, they now go and measure the health of their forest. They've understood now that protecting the forest isn't just for wildlife, it's their own future. That they need the forest. And they're very proud. The volunteers go to workshops, they learn how to use smartphones, they learn how to upload into platform and the cloud. And so it's all transparent. And the trees have come back, there's no bare hills anymore. They agreed to make a buffer zone around Gombe, so the chimps have more forest than they did in 1990. They're opening up corridors of forest to link the scattered chimp groups so that you don't get too much inbreeding. So yes, it's worked, and it's in six other countries now. Same thing.
珍:在那次著名的会议之后, 我觉得我得了解更多关于 黑猩猩在非洲大陆消失的原因。 丛林中到底发生了什么? 所以我凑了点钱 访问了周边 6 个国家。 我了解了一些黑猩猩所面临的问题: 猎获野味, 野生动物交易, 捕兽器的使用, 人口持续增长 导致需要更多土地 用于耕种、养牛和建造村庄。 但我也了解到了 人类所面临的许多问题: 绝对贫困,健康问题,教育的缺乏, 土地侵蚀。 一次我飞过贡贝国家公园时, 我想到这里曾经是 横跨非洲及西海岸的 赤道森林带的一部分。 到了 1990 年, 这里就只剩一块小小的林地, 小小的国家公园。 看到这座山丘 四面八方都是光秃秃的, 真的让我很难受。 如果我们不做点什么, 不帮助人们找到 不破坏环境的生活方式的话, 我们不可能保护黑猩猩。 所以珍妮·古道尔研究所展开了 坦噶尼喀流域造林和教育计划。 我们叫这个项目“TACARE”。 它采用了基于社区的保护方法, 非常一体化。 我们现在把一些保护工具 交到居民的手上。 因为大多数坦桑尼亚的黑猩猩 都不在保护区内, 它们都在镇上的林地里。 居民们因此开始 了解他们林子的健康情况。 他们开始认识到 保护森林不仅仅关乎野生动物, 还关乎他们自己的未来。 他们需要这片林子。 他们应该为其自豪。 有些志愿者们到了工作坊里, 学会了怎么使用智能手机。 他们学会了怎么把项目的记录 上传到平台和云端。 于是整个过程变得非常透明化。 树木重返大地, 再也不是荒山。 他们都同意 在贡贝附近设立缓冲区, 于是黑猩猩们享有了 比 1990 年还多的森林。 他们开辟了森林之间的廊道, 将分散的黑猩猩群落聚集起来, 减少近亲繁殖的现象。 这方法非常有效, 接着在其他的 6 个国家也都奏效了。 同样的方法。
CA: I mean, you've been this extraordinary tireless voice, all around the world, just traveling so much, speaking everywhere, inspiring people everywhere. How on earth do you find the energy, you know, the fire to do that, because that is exhausting to do, every meeting with lots of people, it is just physically exhausting, and yet, here you are, still doing it. How are you doing this, Jane?
克里斯:您一直在全球各地 不知疲倦地发声, 不断地旅行, 到处宣讲,激励别人。 您是怎么找到做这些事的动力, 怎么找到激情的? 因为这些工作确实很累人。 每次与这么多人会面, 真的很让人浑身疲惫, 但您还是坚持在做这些事。 珍,您是怎么做到的?
JG: Well, I suppose, you know, I'm obstinate, I don't like giving up, but I'm not going to let these CEOs of big companies who are destroying the forests, or the politicians who are unraveling all the protections that were put in place by previous presidents, and you know who I'm talking about. And you know, I'll go on fighting, I care about, I'm passionate about the wildlife. I'm passionate about the natural world. I love forests, it hurts me to see them damaged. And I care passionately about children. And we're stealing their future. And I'm not going to give up. So I guess I'm blessed with good genes, that's a gift, and the other gift, which I discovered I had, was communication, whether it's writing or speaking. And so, you know, if going around like this wasn't working, but every time I do a lecture, people come up and say, "Well, I had given up, but you've inspired me, I promise to do my bit." And we have our youth program "Roots and Shoots" now in 65 countries and growing fast, all ages, all choosing projects to help people, animals, the environment, rolling up their sleeves and taking action. And you know, they look at you with shining eyes, wanting to tell Dr. Jane what they've been doing to make the world a better place. How can I let them down?
珍:我猜我很固执吧,不轻言放弃。 我不会放纵这些 破坏森林的大公司 CEO 们, 也不会容忍那些 废除环保政策的政治家们。 大家都知道我在指谁。 我会继续和他们抗争的。 我真切地关心野生动物。 我热诚地看待整个大自然。 我爱森林,森林的毁坏让我心碎。 我又是如此关心孩子们, 但人们正在偷走孩子们的未来。 我不会放弃的。 我猜我被善意祝福了吧, 这是我的礼物。 我发现我还拥有一份礼物, 那就是沟通能力。 无论是书写还是演讲, 你知道的, 如果我这样四处奔走没有起作用, 那为什么每次我主持讲座时, 都有人跑上来说: “我都已经放弃了, 但是您鼓舞了我。 我保证我会为保护环境 贡献自己的一份力的。” 我们现在在 65 个国家开展了 叫做“根与芽”的青少年项目。 该项目正在迅速发展。 什么年龄的参与者都有。 我们挑选了各种助力人类, 动物以及环境的项目。 大家撸起袖子付诸行动。 他们的眼睛里闪烁着光芒, 想要告诉珍博士 他们都做出了什么行动, 怎样让世界变得更加美好。 我怎么能让他们失望呢?
CA: I mean, as you look at the planet's future, what worries you most, actually, what scares you most about where we're at?
克里斯:当您展望这个星球的未来时, 什么东西最让您担忧? 如今的什么状况让您最焦虑?
JG: Well, the fact that we have a small window of time, I believe, when we can at least start healing some of the harm and slowing down climate change. But it is closing, and we've seen what happens with the lockdown around the world because of COVID-19: clear skies over cities, some people breathing clean air that they've never breathed before and looking up at the shining skies at night, which they've never seen properly before. And you know, so what worries me most is how to get enough people, people understand, but they're not taking action, how to get enough people to take action?
珍:或许是我们有限的时间吧。 我们得尽快开始治愈地球的创伤, 减缓气候变化的脚步。 时间正步步紧逼。 由于 COVID-19 导致的封锁, 我们在世界各地已经看到了 城市也能有晴朗的天空。 人们从未有过地 呼吸到了新鲜的空气, 仰望着闪烁的星夜。 他们从来没有好好珍视过。 你明白的。 所以我最担心的 是如何召集足够的人。 大家都是明白人, 但大家都很少付诸行动。 我们如何让足够的人行动起来?
CA: National Geographic just launched this extraordinary film about you, highlighting your work over six decades. It's titled "Jane Goodall: The Hope." So what is the hope, Jane?
克里斯:美国国家地理协会 刚刚推出了一部关于您的影片, 重点讲述了您 近 60 年来所做的工作。 这部影片叫做 《珍·古道尔:点燃希望》。 这份希望是什么呢?
JG: Well, the hope, my greatest hope is all these young people. I mean, in China, people will come up and say, "Well, of course I care about the environment, I was in 'Roots and Shoots' in primary school." And you know, we have "Roots and Shoots" just hanging on to the values and they're so enthusiastic once they know the problems and they're empowered to take action, they are clearing the streams, removing invasive species humanely. And they have so many ideas. And then there's, you know, this extraordinary intellect of ours. We're beginning to use it to come up with technology that really will help us to live in greater harmony, and in our individual lives, let's think about the consequences of what we do each day. What do we buy, where did it come from, how was it made? Did it harm the environment, was it cruel to animals? Is it cheap because of child slave labor? Make ethical choices. Which you can't do if you're living in poverty, by the way. And then finally, this indomitable spirit of people who tackle what seems impossible and won't give up. You can't give up when you have those ... But you know, there are things that I can't fight. I can't fight corruption. I can't fight military regimes and dictators. So I can only do what I can do, and if we all do the bits that we can do, surely that makes a whole that eventually will win out.
珍:希望啊。 年轻人就是我最大的希望。 在中国时,大家找到我说: “我当然关心环境, 我在小学时 就参与了‘根与芽’项目。” “根与芽”灌输着这种价值观。 孩子们是如此热情, 他们一了解到环境问题 就感受到了行动的号召。 他们清理溪流, 人道扑杀入侵物种。 他们很有想法, 而且拥有那样的聪明才智。 我们在想法设法的创造出 能帮助我们与自然和谐共处的技术。 我们要想想各自的生活, 我们每天所做的事情导致的结果。 我们买了什么, 而这些东西又从哪里来? 这些商品是如何制造的? 会不会危害环境?会不会残害动物? 售价如此便宜 会不会是因为非法使用了童工? 要做出有道德的选择。 但如果你的生活贫瘠, 道德的选择往往很难。 但说到底, 人们有着不屈不挠的精神, 直面似乎不可能解决的事情的精神。 人们不会放弃。 如果你有这样的精神, 你就不可能放弃。 但总有我也对抗不了的东西。 我对抗不了腐败。 我对抗不了军政权和独裁者。 我只能努力做我能做到的事。 但如果我们都力所能及地 尽一份力的话, 这种团结的力量最终会获胜的。
CA: So, last question, Jane. If there was one idea, one thought, one seed you could plant in the minds of everyone watching this, what would that be?
克里斯:珍,最后一个问题。 如果现在有一个想法,一种念头。 您可以在每个观众心中 灌输一个理念的话。 那会是什么?
JG: You know, just remember that every day you live, you make an impact on the planet. You can't help making an impact. And at least, unless you're living in extreme poverty, you have a choice as to what sort of impact you make. Even in poverty you have a choice, but when we are more affluent, we have a greater choice. And if we all make ethical choices, then we start moving towards a world that will be not quite so desperate to leave to our great-grandchildren. That's, I think, something for everybody. Because a lot of people understand what's happening, but they feel helpless and hopeless, and what can they do, so they do nothing and they become apathetic. And that is a huge danger, apathy.
珍:你要记住,你活着的每一天 都在影响这颗星球。 你无法改变这点。 除非你生活在极端贫困之中, 你至少能够选择对星球 产生什么样的影响, 其实即便在贫困中你也有选择。 但当我们更富裕的时候, 我们有更好的选择。 如果我们都做出道德的选择, 那么我们会开始推动世界发展, 走向一个对于我们的子孙来说 不那么绝望的世界。 我觉得这是每个人都要做的事。 因为很多人知道正在发生什么, 但是他们感到无助又绝望, 也不知道该做什么。 所以他们什么也不做, 渐渐变得无动于衷。 冷漠是一个巨大的威胁。
CA: Dr. Jane Goodall, wow. I really want to thank you for your extraordinary life, for all that you've done and for spending this time with us now.
克里斯·安德森: 珍·古道尔博士,哇。 我真心感谢您不平凡的一生, 感谢您所做的事情, 感谢你您时间给我们分享。
Thank you.
谢谢您。
JG: Thank you.
珍·古道尔:谢谢大家。