Pat Mitchell: Jeg har tænkt meget over venskab mellem kvinder, og disse to kvinder - og det er mig en ære - har også være mine venner gennem mange år. Jane Fonda: Det er rigtig
Pat Mitchell: So I was thinking about female friendship a lot, and by the way, these two women, I'm very honored to say, have been my friends for a very long time, too. Jane Fonda: Yes we have.
PM: Og en ting jeg har læst om kvindelige venskaber er noget Cervantes sagde. Han sagde, "Man kan udlede meget om en person," dvs. en kvinde, "ud fra dem hun omgås." Lad os starte med --
PM: And one of the things that I read about female friendship is something that Cervantes said. He said, "You can tell a lot about someone," in this case a woman, "by the company that she keeps." So let's start with --
(Latter)
(Laughter)
JF: Vi er i problemer nu.
JF: We're in big trouble.
Lily Tomling: Ræk mig noget vand, Min mund er tør.
Lily Tomlin: Hand me one of those waters, I'm extremely dry.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
JF: Du bruger al din tid. Vi har meget begrænset --
JF: You're taking up our time. We have a very limited --
LT: Hun suger al livet ud af mig.
LT: Just being with her sucks the life out of me.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
JF: Du kan bare vente dig. Men altså -- undskyld.
JF: You ain't seen nothing yet. Anyway -- sorry.
PM: Sig mig, hvad kigger du efter hos en ven?
PM: So tell me, what do you look for in a friend?
LT: Det skal være en der har sans for humor, som er dristig, ligefrem og politisk, som har bare en lille passion for Jorden, en der er anstændig, og har retfærdighedssans og mener jeg er umagen værd
LT: I look for someone who has a sense of fun, who's audacious, who's forthcoming, who has politics, who has even a small scrap of passion for the planet, someone who's decent, has a sense of justice and who thinks I'm worthwhile.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
(Bifald)
(Applause)
JF: Jeg ved virkelig ikke hvad jeg ville gøre uden mine veninder. Jeg mener, "Jeg har mine venner, derfor er jeg."
JF: You know, I was thinking this morning, I don't even know what I would do without my women friends. I mean it's, "I have my friends, therefore I am."
LT: (Latter)
LT: (Laughter)
JF: Nej, det er sandt. Jeg er, fordi jeg har mine veninder. De -- Du er en af dem. Jeg ved ikke med dig. Men altså --
JF: No, it's true. I exist because I have my women friends. They -- You're one of them. I don't know about you. But anyway --
(Latter)
(Laughter)
De gør mig stærkere og klogere, de gør mig modigere. De prikker mig på skulderen, når jeg bør rette ind. Og mange af dem er også meget yngre end jeg. Ikke også? Det er dejligt -- LT: Tak.
You know, they make me stronger, they make me smarter, they make me braver. They tap me on the shoulder when I might be in need of course-correcting. And most of them are a good deal younger than me, too. You know? I mean, it's nice -- LT: Thank you.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
JF: Nej, det er også dig, for hør her -- det er dejligt med en man kan lære af og lege med når man nærmer sig enden. Jeg nærmer mig -- Jeg er der før dig.
JF: No, I do, I include you in that, because listen, you know -- it's nice to have somebody still around to play with and learn from when you're getting toward the end. I'm approaching -- I'll be there sooner than you.
LT: Jeg er glad for vi følges ad.
LT: No, I'm glad to have you parallel aging alongside me.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
JF: Jeg viser dig vejen.
JF: I'm showing you the way.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
LT: Altså du er, og du har.
LT: Well, you are and you have.
PM: Mens vi bliver ældre, og gennemgår forskellige perioder i livet, hvordan holder man så et venskab vitalt og i live?
PM: Well, as we grow older, and as we go through different kinds of life's journeys, what do you do to keep your friendships vital and alive?
LT: Du må bruge en masse --
LT: Well you have to use a lot of --
JF: Hun inviterer mig ikke særlig tit.
JF: She doesn't invite me over much, I'll tell you that.
LT: Jeg bruger sociale medier meget -- Vær stille. Og derfor --
LT: I have to use a lot of social media -- You be quiet now. And so --
(Latter)
(Laughter)
LT: Jeg gennemgår mine mails, og mine SMS'er for at finde mine venner, og svare dem så hurtigt som muligt, for jeg ved de har brug for min rådgivning.
LT: And I look through my emails, I look through my texts to find my friends, so I can answer them as quickly as possible, because I know they need my counsel.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
De har brug for min støtte, for de flest af dem er forfattere, aktivister eller skuespillere, og du er alle 3 ... samt en lang række af andre beskrivende fraser, og jeg vil frem til dig så hurtigt som muligt. Du skal vide jeg er der for dig.
They need my support, because most of my friends are writers, or activists, or actors, and you're all three ... and a long string of other descriptive phrases, and I want to get to you as soon as possible, I want you to know that I'm there for you.
JF: Bruger du smileys?
JF: Do you do emojis?
LT: Øh... JF: Ikke?
LT: Oh ... JF: No?
LT: Det er pinligt. JF: Jeg elsker smileys.
LT: That's embarrassing. JF: I'm really into emojis.
LT: Mine er tekst -- Jeg skriver ord som glæde og tillykke, og sorg.
LT: No, I spell out my -- I spell out my words of happiness and congratulations, and sadness.
JF: Du skriver det --
JF: You spell it right out --
LT: Jeg skriver hvert eneste bogstav
LT: I spell it, every letter.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
JF: Du foretrækker enkelthed. Du ved, med alderen, får jeg bedre forståelse for vigtigheden af venskaber, så jeg anstrenger mig virkelig for at holde dem ved lige, og undgå der går for lang tid. Jeg læser meget som Lily kun ved alt for godt. De bøger jeg kan lide, sender jeg til mine venner.
JF: Such a purist. You know, as I've gotten older, I've understood more the importance of friendships, and so, I really make an effort to reach out and make play dates -- not let too much time go by. I read a lot so, as Lily knows all too well, my books that I like, I send to my friends.
LT: Da vi fandt ud af vi skulle herind sendte du mig mange bøger om kvinder og veninder, og jeg var overrasket over at se hvor mange bøger, og hvor meget forskning der er lavet fornylig --
LT: When we knew we would be here today you sent me a lot of books about women, female friendships, and I was so surprised to see how many books, how much research has been done recently --
JF: Og var du taknemmelig? LT: Jeg var taknemmelig.
JF: And were you grateful? LT: I was grateful.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
PM: Og --
PM: And --
LT: Vendt, nej, det er vigtigt for dette er et andet eksempel på hvordan kvinder overses, sættes til side og marginaliseres. Der laves meget lidt forskning om os selvom vi tit melder os frivilligt.
LT: Wait, no, it's really important because this is another example of how women are overlooked, put aside, marginalized. There's been very little research done on us, even though we volunteered lots of times.
JF: Helt klart.
JF: That's for sure.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
LT: Det er virkelig spændende, og I vil finde det interessant. Forskning på Harvard Medical School har vist at kvinder der har tætte veninder er mindre tilbøjelige til at få fysiske skavanker med alderen, og de bliver opfattet som mere vitale og spændende --
LT: This is really exciting, and you all will be interested in this. The Harvard Medical School study has shown that women who have close female friendships are less likely to develop impairments -- physical impairments as they age, and they are likely to be seen to be living much more vital, exciting --
JF: Og længere --
JF: And longer --
LT: gladere liv.
LT: Joyful lives.
JF: Vi bliver 5 år ældre end mænd.
JF: We live five years longer than men.
LT: Jeg bytter gerne for glæden.
LT: I think I'd trade the years for joy.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
LT: Men den vigtigste -- resultatet var så spændende og tydeligt -- forskerne fandt ud af at det er lige så skadeligt for helbredet ikke at have tætte veninder, som det er at ryge eller være overvægtig.
LT: But the most important part is they found -- the results were so exciting and so conclusive -- the researchers found that not having close female friends is detrimental to your health, as much as smoking or being overweight.
JF: Og der er også noget andet --
JF: And there's something else, too --
LT: Jeg har sagt mit, så ...
LT: I've said my part, so ...
(Latter)
(Laughter)
JF: Så lyt til mig, for jeg har noget at tilføje. I årevis, i årtier -- forskede man kun i mænd i forbindelse med stress. Først fornylig har de kigget på hvad der sker med kvinder under stress. Og det viser sig, at når kvinder bliver stresset, bliver kroppen oversvømmet med oxytocin. Det er et beroligende og stress-reducerende hormon. Det forøges også, når vi er sammen med veninder. Jeg tror det er derfor vi lever længere. Og jeg synes det er synd for mænd at de ikke har det sådan. Testosteron hos mænd mindsker effekten af oxytocin.
JF: OK, well, listen to my part, because there's an additional thing. Because they only -- for years, decades -- they only researched men when they were trying to understand stress, only very recently have they researched what happens to women when we're stressed, and it turns out that when we're stressed -- women, our bodies get flooded by oxytocin. Which is a feel-good, calming, stress-reducing hormone. Which is also increased when we're with our women friends. And I do think that's one reason why we live longer. And I feel so bad for men because they don't have that. Testosterone in men diminishes the effects of oxytocin.
LT: Da du, jeg og Dolly lavede "9 til 5"...
LT: Well, when you and I and Dolly made "9 to 5" ...
JF: Åh --
JF: Oh --
LT: Vi grinte, vi grinte så meget, vi har meget tilfælles, og er også meget forskellige. Her er hun, en kongelig i Hollywood, Jeg er en rå unge fra Detroit, [Dolly's] er et sydstatsbarn fra en fattig by i Tennessee, og vi fandt at vi virkelig er på bølgelængde som kvinder, og vi må have -- vi grinte -- vi må have tilføjet mindst et årti til vores livslængde.
LT: We laughed, we did, we laughed so much, we found we had so much in common and we're so different. Here she is, like Hollywood royalty, I'm like a tough kid from Detroit, [Dolly's] a Southern kid from a poor town in Tennessee, and we found we were so in sync as women, and we must have -- we laughed -- we must have added at least a decade onto our lifespans.
JF: Vi krydsede ben rigtig meget.
JF: I think -- we sure crossed our legs a lot.
(Latter) Hvis du forstår hvad jeg mener.
(Laughter) If you know what I mean.
LT: Vi ved alle hvad du mener.
LT: I think we all know what you mean.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
PM: Du føjer årtier til vores liv lige nu. Imellem bøgerne om veninder som Jane sendte til os var der en af Joan Chittister, som jeg beundrer meget, og hun sagde om veninder at kvindelige venner ikke kun er sociale, men også spirituelle. Er Jeres venskaber spirituelle? Tilføjer de noget spirituelt i Jeres liv?
PM: You're adding decades to our lives right now. So among the books that Jane sent us both to read on female friendship was one by a woman we admire greatly, Sister Joan Chittister, who said about female friendship that women friends are not just a social act, they're a spiritual act. Do you think of your friends as spiritual? Do they add something spiritual to your lives?
LT: Det er jeg sikker på. Især mennesker man har kendt i lang tid, og brugt meget tid med -- Jeg kan se den spirituelle essens indeni dem, ømheden, skrøbeligheden. Der er et element af kærlighed i forholdet. Jeg ser dybt ind i din sjæl.
LT: Spiritual -- I absolutely think that. Because -- especially people you've known a long time, people you've spent time with -- I can see the spiritual essence inside them, the tenderness, the vulnerability. There's actually kind of a love, an element of love in the relationship. I just see deeply into your soul.
PM: Synes du det, Jane --
PM: Do you think that, Jane --
LT: Jeg har særlige evner.
LT: But I have special powers.
JF: Der er mange typer venner. Der er forretningsvenner, og fest-venner, Dem har jeg mange af.
JF: Well, there's all kinds of friends. There's business friends, and party friends, I've got a lot of those.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
Men de oxytocin-producerende venskaber har ... De føles spirituelle fordi de åbner hjertet, ikke? Vi er dybe. Og -- jeg græder meget med mine tætte venner. Ikke fordi jeg er ked af det. Jeg bliver så rørt og inspireret af dem.
But the oxytocin-producing friendships have ... They feel spiritual because it's a heart opening, right? You know, we go deep. And -- I find that I shed tears a lot with my intimate friends. Not because I'm sad but because I'm so touched and inspired by them.
LT: Og en af Jer må gå snart.
LT: And you know one of you is going to go soon.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
PM: Vi sidder her begge to, Lily, hvem mener du?
PM: Well, two of us are sitting here, Lily, which one are you talking about?
(Latter) Jeg synes at når kvinder taler om deres venskaber, bliver mænd altid lidt forundret. Hvad er forskellen efter din mening, mellem mandlige venskaber og kvindelige venskaber?
(Laughter) And I always think, when women talk about their friendships, that men always look a little mystified. What are the differences, in your opinion, between men friendships and women friendships?
JF: Der er stor forskel, og vi må udvise mænd meget empati --
JF: There's a lot of difference, and I think we have to have a lot of empathy for men --
(Latter)
(Laughter)
fordi de ikke har det vi har. Hvilket jeg mener er årsagen til de dør tidligere.
that they don't have what we have. Which I think may be why they die sooner.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
Jeg har rigtig meget medfølelse med mænd, fordi kvinder, seriøst, vi -- kvinders forhold, vores venskaber er totalt åbne, vi er dybe. De er afslørende. Vi risikerer sårbarhed -- den slags gør mænd ikke. Hvor ofte har jeg ikke spurgt dig, "Gør jeg det godt?" "Har jeg dummet mig?"
I have a lot of compassion for men, because women, no kidding, we -- women's relationships, our friendships are full disclosure, we go deep. They're revelatory. We risk vulnerability -- this is something men don't do. I mean how many times have I asked you, "Am I doing OK?" "Did I really screw up there?"
PM: Du gør det fantastisk.
PM: You're doing great.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
JF: Vi stiller sådanne spørgsmål til vores veninder men det gør mænd ikke. Kvinders forhold beskrives som ansigt-til-ansigt, hvor mænds venskaber er mere side-om-side.
JF: But I mean, we ask questions like that of our women friends, and men don't. You know, people describe women's relationships as face-to-face, whereas men's friendships are more side-by-side.
LT: Oftest ønsker mænd ikke at afsløre deres følelser, de begraver de dybere følelser. Det der i hvert fald den generelle opfattelse. De vil hellere være i deres mande-huler og se en kamp eller slå til golfbolde, eller tale om sport, jagt eller biler. Eller have sex. Det er bare en mere mandlig adfærd.
LT: I mean most of the time men don't want to reveal their emotions, they want to bury deeper feelings. I mean, that's the general, conventional thought. They would rather go off in their man cave and watch a game or hit golf balls, or talk about sports, or hunting, or cars or have sex. I mean, it's just the kind of -- it's a more manly behavior.
JF: Du mente -- LT: De taler om sex. De har måske sex hvis de kan overtale en i mande-hulen --
JF: You meant -- LT: They talk about sex. I meant they might have sex if they could get somebody in their man cave to --
(Latter)
(Laughter)
JF: Men noget jeg finder rigtig interessant -- og igen, psykologer vidste ikke dette før relativt nyligt -- er at mænd fødes med samme mulighed for at danne forhold som kvinder. På film med nyfødte drenge og piger, ser man drenge såvel som piger, stirre ind i deres mødres øjne, efter den relationelle udveksling af energi. Når moderen kigger væk, kan man se barnet er utilfreds. Selv drengene græder. De har brug for relationer. Så spørgsmålet er hvorfor dette ændrer sig som de bliver større? Svaret er den patriarkale kultur, som fortæller drenge og unge mænd at følelsesmæssige forhold er piget. At en rigtig mand ikke spørg om vej eller udtrykker et behov, de går ikke til lægen når de er dårlige. De beder ikke om hjælp. Der er et citat jeg kan lide, "Manden frygter at "os" vil slette hans "jeg"". Hans følelse af selvet. Hvorimod kvinders følelse af selvet altid har været porøst. Vores "vi" er en frelser, det gør os stærke. Ikke fordi vi er bedre end mænd, vi skal ikke bevise vores maskulinitet.
JF: You know something, though, that I find very interesting -- and again, psychologists didn't know this until relatively recently -- is that men are born every bit as relational as women are. If you look at films of newborn baby boys and girls, you'll see the baby boys just like the girls, gazing into their mother's eyes, you know, needing that relational exchange of energy. When the mother looks away, they could see the dismay on the child, even the boy would cry. They need relationship. So the question is why, as they grow older, does that change? And the answer is patriarchal culture, which says to boys and young men that to be needing of relationship, to be emotional with someone is girly. That a real man doesn't ask directions or express a need, they don't go to doctors if they feel bad. They don't ask for help. There's a quote that I really like, "Men fear that becoming 'we' will erase his 'I'." You know, his sense of self. Whereas women's sense of self has always been kind of porous. But our "we" is our saving grace, it's what makes us strong. It's not that we're better than men, we just don't have our masculinity to prove.
LT: Og, altså --
LT: And, well --
JF: Det er et Gloria Steinem citat. Vi kan udtrykke hvor humanitet -- LT: Jeg ved godt hvem Gloria Steinem er.
JF: That's a Gloria Steinem quote. So we can express our humanity -- LT: I know who Gloria Steinem is.
JF: Jeg ved du ved det, men jeg tror det er --
JF: I know you know who she is, but I think it's a --
(Latter)
(Laughter)
Jeg synes det er et fantastisk citat. Vi er ikke bedre end mænd, vi har bare ikke behov for at bevise maskulinitet. Det er meget vigtigt.
No, but it's a great quote, I think. We're not better than men, we just don't have our masculinity to prove. And that's really important.
LT: Men mænd har virkelig fået indprentet i kulturen at være komfortabel med patriarkatet. Det må vi ændre på.
LT: But men are so inculcated in the culture to be comfortable in the patriarchy. And we've got to make something different happen.
JF: Kvinderes venskaber er en genopladelig kilde til energi.
JF: Women's friendships are like a renewable source of power.
LT: Det er det spændende ved dette emne. Fordi vores venskaber -- kvindelige venskaber bliver nemt søsterlige, og søsterlighed er en meget kraftfuld energi, til at give verden -- at ændre verden til det den bør være -- de ting mennesker så desperat ønsker.
LT: Well, that's what's exciting about this subject. It's because our friendships -- female friendships are just a hop to our sisterhood, and sisterhood can be a very powerful force, to give the world -- to make it what it should be -- the things that humans desperately need.
PM: Derfor taler vi om det, fordi kvinders venskaber er, som du sagde, Jane, en genopladelig kilde til energi. Hvordan bruger vi så den energi?
PM: It is why we're talking about it, because women's friendships are, as you said, Jane, a renewable source of power. So how do we use that power?
JF: Kvinder er den stærkest voksende del af befolkningen, især ældre kvinder. Og hvis vi høster den energi, kan vi ændre verden. Og ved du hvad? Det er vi nød til.
JF: Well, women are the fastest growing demographic in the world, especially older women. And if we harness our power, we can change the world. And guess what? We need to.
(Bifald)
(Applause)
Og vi må gøre det snart. Og en af de ting vi må gøre -- og vi kvinder kan gøre det -- vi sætter standarden for forbrug. Vi må forbruge mindre. Vi i den vestlige verden må forbruge mindre og når vi handler, skal vi handle lokalt. De fødevarer vi handler skal være dyrket lokalt. Vi må løsrive os. Vi skal være uafhængig af fossile brændstoffer. Og virksomhederne -- Exxon, Shell o.lign. De slemme drenge -- fordi de er -- de fortæller os vi ikke kan uden at vende tilbage til stenalderen. At alternativerne ikke findes endnu, og det passer ikke. Lige nu, er der lande hvis hovedenergikilde er vedvarende energi, og de klarer sig fint. Og de siger at uden fossile brændstoffer vender vi tilbage til stenalderen, for faktisk, hvis vi omstiller til vedvarende energi, og ikke borer på Antarktis, og ikke borer --
And we need to do it soon. And one of the things that we need to do -- and we can do it as women -- for one thing, we kind of set the consumer standards. We need to consume less. We in the Western world need to consume less and when we buy things, we need to buy things that are made locally, when we buy food, we need to buy food that's grown locally. We are the ones that need to get off the grid. We need to make ourselves independent from fossil fuels. And the fossil fuel companies -- the Exxons and the Shell Oils and those bad guys -- cause they are -- are going to tell us that we can't do it without going back to the Stone Age. You know, that the alternatives just aren't quite there yet, and that's not true. There are countries in the world right now that are living mostly on renewable energy and doing just fine. And they tell us that if we do wean ourselves from fossil fuel that we're going to be back in the Stone Age, and in fact, if we begin to use renewable energy, and not drill in the Arctic, and not drill --
LT: Åh nej.
LT: Oh, boy.
JF: Og ikke borer i Alberta tjæresand -- Rigtigt. Så vil der være -- Der kommer mere demokrati, flere jobs og større velbefindende, og kvinderne på lede på vej.
JF: And not drill in the Alberta tar sands -- Right. That we will be -- there will be more democracy and more jobs and more well-being, and it's women that are going to lead the way.
LT: Måske kan vi starte en tredje bølge af den feministiske bevægelse med vores søsterlighed over hele verden, med kvinder vi ikke kan se, kvinder vi måske aldrig møder, men vi holder sammen, fordi, Aristoteles sagde -- de fleste -- mennesker dør uden mandlige venskaber og det vigtige ord her er "mandlig". De tror nemlig at venskaber skal opstå mellem ligemænd og kvinder opfattes ikke som lige --
LT: Maybe we have the momentum to start a third-wave feminist movement with our sisterhood around the world, with women we don't see, women we may never meet, but we join together that way, because -- Aristotle said -- most people -- people would die without male friendships. And the operative word here was "male." Because they thought that friendships should be between equals and women were not considered equal --
JF: Grækerne mener endda vi ikke har sjæle.
JF: They didn't think we had souls even, the Greeks.
LT: Lige nøjagtig. Det viser hvor begrænset Aristoteles var.
LT: No, exactly. That shows you just how limited Aristotle was.
(Latter)
(Laughter)
Og vent, nu kommer det bedste. Mænd har brug for kvinder. Jorden har brug for kvinder. USAs forfatning har brug for kvinder. Vi er end ikke nævnt i forfatningen.
And wait, no, here's the best part. It's like, you know, men do need women now. The planet needs women. The US Constitution needs women. We are not even in the Constitution.
JF: Du tænker på tilføjelsen vedr. ligestilling.
JF: You're talking about the Equal Rights Amendment.
LT: Nemlig. Justice Ginsberg sagde noget i retning af -- enhver forfatning skrevet siden 2. verdenskrig indeholdt en sektion der ligestiller kvinder med mænd, men det gør vores ikke. Så det er et godt sted at starte. Meget meget mild --
LT: Right. Justice Ginsberg said something like -- every constitution that's been written since the end of World War II included a provision that made women citizens of equal stature, but ours does not. So that would be a good place to start. Very, very mild --
JF: Nemlig.
JF: Right.
(Bifald)
(Applause)
Og ligestilling mellem køn er som tidevand, der løfter alle skibe, ikke kun kvinder.
And gender equality, it's like a tide, it would lift all boats, not just women.
PM: Der er brug nye rollemodeller der viser vejen. Hvordan man bliver venner, at tænke på energi på forskellig vis, og forbrugere, som borgere i verden, og det er hvad Jane og Lily er en rollemodel på hvordan man kan være venner -- i meget lang tid, og selv når de ind imellem er uenige.
PM: Needing new role models on how to do that. How to be friends, how to think about our power in different ways, as consumers, as citizens of the world, and this is what makes Jane and Lily a role model of how women can be friends -- for a very long time, and even if they occasionally disagree.
Tak. Tak til Jer begge.
Thank you. Thank you both.
(Bifald)
(Applause)
JF: Tak.
JF: Thanks.
LT: Tak.
LT: Thank you.
JF: Tak.
JF: Thank you.
(Bifald)
(Applause)