The magical moment, the magical moment of conducting. Which is, you go onto a stage. There is an orchestra sitting. They are all, you know, warming up and doing stuff. And I go on the podium. You know, this little office of the conductor. Or rather a cubicle, an open-space cubicle, with a lot of space. And in front of all that noise, you do a very small gesture. Something like this, not very pomp, not very sophisticated, this. And suddenly, out of the chaos, order. Noise becomes music.
魔法的瞬間,指揮時的魔法瞬間 就是當你走上台,面對坐著的交響樂團 他們都在,就是,暖身,做些事 我走上講台 就是那個指揮家的小辦公室 或應該說是工作隔間, 後面空間很大的、開放式工作隔間, 在這些雜音面前, 做一個很小的動作 像這樣,不誇張、也不做作,像這樣。 突然間,從混亂中,秩序出現了。 雜音變為音樂
And this is fantastic. And it's so tempting to think that it's all about me. (Laughter) All those great people here, virtuosos, they make noise, they need me to do that. Not really. If it were that, I would just save you the talk, and teach you the gesture. So you could go out to the world and do this thing in whatever company or whatever you want, and you have perfect harmony. It doesn't work. Let's look at the first video. I hope you'll think it's a good example of harmony. And then speak a little bit about how it comes about.
這感覺真棒!幾乎會讓我 以為這一切,都是因為我的緣故。 (笑聲) 所有在場的大師、演奏家們 只會發出雜音,他們需要我,才能演奏。 這不是真的。 要是真的這樣, 我就可以省了這次演講, 只要教你們指揮的手勢。 好讓你們出去以後, 在公司或任何環境, 享受完美的和諧。 不,這行不通的。 讓我們看第一段影片 我希望,你們會認為,這是展現和諧的好例子, 然後,我會講一下,和諧是怎麼來的
(Music)
(音樂)
Was that nice? So that was a sort of a success. Now, who should we thank for the success? I mean, obviously the orchestra musicians playing beautifully, the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra. They don't often even look at the conductor. Then you have the clapping audience, yeah, actually taking part in doing the music. You know Viennese audiences usually don't interfere with the music. This is the closest to an Oriental bellydancing feast that you will ever get in Vienna. (Laughter)
很棒嗎? 這真是一種成功。 那我們該歸功給誰呢? 我是說,顯然是給樂團裡的音樂家。 他們演奏得這麼美, 維也納愛樂管絃樂團 他們甚至不常看著指揮者。 還有,那些打拍子的觀眾, 也實際參與了演出。 其實,維也納的觀眾,多半不會干擾音樂進行 這種表現,對維也納人來說, 已經是最像在看一場東方肚皮舞的反應了。 (笑聲)
Unlike, for example Israel, where audiences cough all the time. You know, Arthur Rubinstein, the pianist, used to say that, "Anywhere in the world, people that have the flu, they go to the doctor. In Tel Aviv they come to my concerts." (Laughter) So that's a sort of a tradition. But Viennese audiences do not do that. Here they go out of their regular, just to be part of that, to become part of the orchestra, and that's great. You know, audiences like you, yeah, make the event.
不像,比方說,以色列的觀眾,老是咳嗽 鋼琴家魯賓斯坦 曾經說過, “世界任何地方的人感冒了,會去看醫生, 只有在特拉維夫,他們感冒,就來我的演奏會。” (笑聲) 所以,這好像傳統一樣。 維也納人不會這樣的。 在剛剛的影片裡,他們一反常態,成為音樂的一部分。 也變成樂團的一部份。 這個很棒! 就像你們一樣, 讓這演講成功。
But what about the conductor? What can you say the conductor was doing, actually? Um, he was happy. And I often show this to senior management. People get annoyed. "You come to work. How come you're so happy?" Something must be wrong there, yeah? But he's spreading happiness. And I think the happiness, the important thing is this happiness does not come from only his own story and his joy of the music. The joy is about enabling other people's stories to be heard at the same time.
但是指揮家呢? 你說這指揮家 到底在做什麼? 嗯,他很快樂。 我常常給高階主管看這個短片。 他們看了很生氣。 "你們來上班,幹嘛這麼開心?" 一定哪裡出錯了,是不是? 但是,他在散播快樂。 我想這種快樂,我認為重點是,這種快樂 不只是因為 他表達自己的故事,和他對音樂的喜愛 這種快樂,是讓別人也能同時 訴說自己的故事給觀眾聽。
You have the story of the orchestra as a professional body. You have the story of the audience as a community. Yeah. You have the stories of the individuals in the orchestra and in the audience. And then you have other stories, unseen. People who build this wonderful concert hall. People who made those Stradivarius, Amati, all those beautiful instruments. And all those stories are being heard at the same time. This is the true experience of a live concert. That's a reason to go out of home. Yeah? And not all conductors do just that. Let's see somebody else, a great conductor. Riccardo Muti, please.
你有樂團自成一個專業團體的故事 你有觀眾自成一個社群的故事 也有在樂團和觀眾裡, 每一個人自己的故事。 還有一些無形的故事:如, 那些建造這美好音樂廳的人的故事 還有那些製造名琴,如史特拉第瓦里提琴、阿瑪提提琴的人的故事 這些所有的故事同時讓大家聽見 這就是去聽現場演奏的真實經驗。 這就是你出門的原因。 對吧? 但不是所有的指揮家都這麼做。 我們來看另一位偉大的指揮家-- 里卡多·慕提。請!
(Music)
(音樂)
Yeah, that was very short, but you could see it's a completely different figure. Right? He's awesome. He's so commanding. Yeah? So clear. Maybe a little bit over-clear. Can we have a little demonstration? Would you be my orchestra for a second? Can you sing, please, the first note of Don Giovanni? You have to sing "Aaaaaah," and I'll stop you. Okay? Ready?
影片很短,但是你可以看出 完全不同的個性,對吧? 他很棒,他很莊嚴,對吧? 很明確。或許太過明確了。 我們來個示範,怎麼樣? 你們充當我的樂團一下子好嗎? 你們唱歌劇『唐·喬望尼』的第一個音,好不好? 你們唱「啊---」,然後我示意停止 好了嗎? 準備好了嗎?
Audience: ♫ Aaaaaaah ... ♫
觀眾唱: ♫ 啊 ... ♫
Itay Talgam: Come on, with me. If you do it without me I feel even more redundant than I already feel. So please, wait for the conductor. Now look at me. "Aaaaaah," and I stop you. Let's go.
嘿,要跟著我! 如果自己先唱了 我會更覺得自己是多餘的 所以,請等指揮的手勢 看著我, "啊," 然後停止。來!
Audience: ♫ ... Aaaaaaaah ... ♫ (Laughter)
觀眾唱: ♫ ... 啊 ... ♫ (笑聲)
Itay Talgam: So we'll have a little chat later. (Laughter) But ... There is a vacancy for a ... But -- (Laughter) -- you could see that you could stop an orchestra with a finger. Now what does Riccardo Muti do? He does something like this ... (Laughter) And then -- sort of -- (Laughter) So not only the instruction is clear, but also the sanction, what will happen if you don't do what I tell you. (Laughter) So, does it work? Yes, it works -- to a certain point.
義泰·塔更: 我們等一下要談一談 (笑聲) 但是, ... 這裡有個職缺,是 ... 但是 -- (笑聲) -- 你看,我可以用一根手指,讓整個樂團停下來 但是里卡多·慕提怎麼做呢? 他做的像這樣... (笑聲) 然後 – 好像 -- (笑聲) 不但指令很清楚, 連違背指令的後果,也很清楚 (笑聲) 所以,這方式有用嗎? 是的-- 有用到一個程度。
When Muti is asked, "Why do you conduct like this?" He says, "I'm responsible." Responsible in front of him. No he doesn't really mean Him. He means Mozart, which is -- (Laughter) -- like a third seat from the center. (Laughter) So he says, "If I'm -- (Applause) if I'm responsible for Mozart, this is going to be the only story to be told. It's Mozart as I, Riccardo Muti, understand it."
有人問慕提:"你為什麼這樣指揮?" 他說: "我要負責" "在他面前我要負責" 他不是指「祂」,他指的是莫札特 就是 -- (笑聲) – 好像他就坐在中間第三個位子 (笑聲) 所以他說,"如果我 -- (掌聲) 如果我要對莫札特負責, 這是我,里卡多·慕提, 所了解的莫札特,我唯一的詮釋"
And you know what happened to Muti? Three years ago he got a letter signed by all 700 employees of La Scala, musical employees, I mean the musicians, saying, "You're a great conductor. We don't want to work with you. Please resign." (Laughter) "Why? Because you don't let us develop. You're using us as instruments, not as partners. And our joy of music, etc., etc. ..." So he had to resign. Isn't that nice? (Laughter) He's a nice guy. He's a really nice guy. Well, can you do it with less control, or with a different kind of control? Let's look at the next conductor, Richard Strauss.
你們知道慕提後來怎樣嗎? 三年前,他收到一封信 來自所有La Scala 700位員工的聯名信, 音樂專業的員工們,音樂家們 說:"你是個偉大的指揮家。我們不要和你一起工作,請辭職。" (笑聲) "為什麼? 因為你不讓我們發展 你把我們當成樂器,而不是伙伴。 我們對音樂的喜樂,等等..." 所以他就只好辭職。這是不是挺好的? (笑聲) 他是個好人,他是個非常好的人 但是,可不可以少一些掌控? 或換一種方式掌控呢? 我們看下一位指揮家,李察·史特勞斯
(Music)
(音樂)
I'm afraid you'll get the feeling that I really picked on him because he's old. It's not true. When he was a young man of about 30, he wrote what he called "The Ten Commandments for Conductors." The first one was: If you sweat by the end of the concert it means that you must have done something wrong. That's the first one. The fourth one you'll like better. It says: Never look at the trombones -- it only encourages them. (Laughter)
你們可能認為我挑他毛病,是因為他很老了? 不是的。 當他還很年輕的時候, 大概30歲,他寫了 "指揮家的十誡" 第一條是: 如果在音樂會結束時,你流汗了 那表示你一定做錯了 那是第一條。 你們會更喜歡第四條。 第四條: 絕對不要看長號手, 這樣只會更鼓勵他們,吹得更響。 (笑聲)
So, the whole idea is really to let it happen by itself. Do not interfere. But how does it happen? Did you see him turning pages in the score? Now, either he is senile, and doesn't remember his own music, because he wrote the music. Or he is actually transferring a very strong message to them, saying, "Come on guys. You have to play by the book. So it's not about my story. It's not about your story. It's only the execution of the written music, no interpretation." Interpretation is the real story of the performer. So, no, he doesn't want that. That's a different kind of control. Let's see another super-conductor, a German super-conductor. Herbert von Karajan, please.
所以,整個想法就是 讓音樂自己出現 不要干擾 但是音樂怎麼出現? 你看到-- 他在翻樂譜嗎? 所以,要不是他老年癡呆, 不記得自己的音樂,因為這是他自己寫的樂譜, 就是他在傳達一個很強烈的訊息,說-- "大家注意,你們必須照著譜演奏。 所以這不是我的故事,不是你的故事 只是把寫下的音符,執行出來罷了, 不能有自己的衍譯" 衍譯是表演者的事。 所以,他不要個人主義。 這是一種不同的掌控方式。 我們再看下一位超級指揮家, 一位德國超級指揮家,卡拉揚,請--
(Music)
(音樂)
What's different? Did you see the eyes? Closed. Did you see the hands? Did you see this kind of movement? Let me conduct you. Twice. Once like a Muti, and you'll -- (Claps) -- clap, just once. And then like Karajan. Let's see what happens. Okay? Like Muti. You ready? Because Muti ... (Laughter) Okay? Ready? Let's do it.
有什麼不同? 你注意到他的眼睛嗎? 是閉著的 你看到他的手勢嗎? 你看到這種動作了嗎? 讓我指揮你們兩次,試試看。 第一次像慕提,你們 -- 拍手,一次就好 然後我像卡拉揚。我們看看會發生什麼事情。好嗎? 像慕提。準備好了嗎? 因為慕提... (笑聲) 好嗎? 準備好了? 來!
Audience: (Claps)
(觀眾拍手)
Itay Talgam: Hmm ... again.
嗯 ... 再一次
Audience: (Claps) Itay Talgam: Good. Now like a Karajan. Since you're already trained, let me concentrate, close my eyes. Come, come.
(觀眾拍手) 很好。現在換卡拉揚。因為你們已經被訓練好了 讓我專心,閉上眼睛,來,來
Audience: (Claps) (Laughter)
(觀眾拍手) (笑聲)
Itay Talgam: Why not together? (Laughter) Because you didn't know when to play. Now I can tell you, even the Berlin Philharmonic doesn't know when to play. (Laughter) But I'll tell you how they do it. No cynicism. This is a German orchestra, yes? They look at Karajan. And then they look at each other. (Laughter) "Do you understand what this guy wants?" And after doing that, they really look at each other, and the first players of the orchestra lead the whole ensemble in playing together.
怎麼不一致呢? (笑聲) 因為你們不知道什麼時候該開始。 我跟你們說,即使是柏林愛樂 也不知道該何時開始! (笑聲) 但是我告訴你們,他們怎麼辦。沒有嘲笑的意思。 這是個德國的管絃樂團,對吧? 他們看看卡拉揚,然後他們彼此對看 (笑聲) "你知道這傢伙要我們怎樣嗎?" 在那之後, 他們真的彼此對望,然後樂團裡的首席音樂家 開頭帶領整個合奏,大家一起演奏
And when Karajan is asked about it he actually says, "Yes, the worst damage I can do to my orchestra is to give them a clear instruction. Because that would prevent the ensemble, the listening to each other that is needed for an orchestra." Now that's great. What about the eyes? Why are the eyes closed? There is a wonderful story about Karajan conducting in London. And he cues in a flute player like this. The guy has no idea what to do. (Laughter) "Maestro, with all due respect, when should I start?" What do you think Karajan's reply was? When should I start? Oh yeah. He says, "You start when you can't stand it anymore." (Laughter)
當有人問起卡拉揚 他說:"對的,我對我的樂團 可能做的最大破壞 就是給他們一個清楚的指示。 因為這樣的話, 大家就不可能合奏、彼此傾聽, 但樂團需要合奏、傾聽。" 這很好。 那眼睛呢? 為什麼閉上眼睛? 卡拉揚在倫敦指揮時,有一個很棒的故事。 他暗示一位長笛手,像這樣 那傢伙不知道該怎麼辦 (笑聲) "大師,請問您,我什麼時候該開始?" 你猜卡拉揚怎麼回答? 我什麼時候開始演奏? 嗯,他說:"你再也忍不住的時候,就開始" (笑聲)
Meaning that you know you have no authority to change anything. It's my music. The real music is only in Karajan's head. And you have to guess my mind. So you are under tremendous pressure because I don't give you instruction, and yet, you have to guess my mind. So it's a different kind of, a very spiritual but yet very firm control. Can we do it in another way? Of course we can. Let's go back to the first conductor we've seen: Carlos Kleiber, his name. Next video, please.
意思是:你沒有權力改變任何東西, 這是我的音樂。真正的音樂只在卡拉揚的腦子裡。 你要猜測我的心思。 所以你的壓力很大, 因為我不會給你指示, 但是,你要揣測我的心意。 所以這是一種不同的指揮方式,非常的靈性,但是-- 也全在嚴格掌控中。 我們可以用其他的方式嗎? 當然可以。我們回頭 看我們剛才看過的第一位指揮家-- 他是卡洛斯·克萊伯。請放下一段影片。
(Music)
(音樂)
(Laughter) Yeah. Well, it is different. But isn't that controlling in the same way? No, it's not, because he is not telling them what to do. When he does this, it's not, "Take your Stradivarius and like Jimi Hendrix, smash it on the floor." It's not that. He says, "This is the gesture of the music. I'm opening a space for you to put in another layer of interpretation." That is another story.
(笑聲) 很棒! 這不一樣,但是不是也用同樣的方式掌控呢? 不是的。因為他沒有告訴他們該怎麼做。 當他這麼做的時候,那不是意味: "把你的百萬名琴,像吉米·亨德里克斯那樣, 砸在地上"。他不是那樣的。 他說: "這是表現音樂的手勢 我為你打開一個空間 讓你放入另一個層次, 也就是衍譯。" 不過這是另一回事。
But how does it really work together if it doesn't give them instructions? It's like being on a rollercoaster. Yeah? You're not really given any instructions, but the forces of the process itself keep you in place. That's what he does. The interesting thing is of course the rollercoaster does not really exist. It's not a physical thing. It's in the players' heads.
但,若這些動作不是指令, 他們是怎麼合作的呢? 這就像坐雲霄飛車。知道嗎? 你們沒有接受任何指令 但是那過程中的力量就會領著你走 這就是他的作法 有趣的是,當然,實際上並沒有雲霄飛車在跑 實體上沒有。卻在大家的腦袋裡。
And that's what makes them into partners. You have the plan in your head. You know what to do, even though Kleiber is not conducting you. But here and there and that. You know what to do. And you become a partner building the rollercoaster, yeah, with sound, as you actually take the ride. This is very exciting for those players. They do need to go to a sanatorium for two weeks, later. (Laughter) It is very tiring. Yeah? But it's the best music making, like this.
這就是讓他們成為夥伴的方法。 在你腦袋裡有個計畫 即使克萊伯沒在指揮,你也知道該做什麼 就算他在這樣、那樣,但你知道該做什麼。 然後,你們就成為一起建造雲霄飛車的夥伴 是的,用聲音建的雲霄飛車, 就像你真的去坐了一樣。 對這些團員來說,這是很棒的。 結束之後,他們會去休養兩週 (笑聲) 這很累的,對吧? 但卻創造了最棒的音樂,像這樣。
But of course it's not only about motivation and giving them a lot of physical energy. You also have to be very professional. And look again at this Kleiber. Can we have the next video, quickly? You'll see what happens when there is a mistake.
當然,這不光靠動機, 和提供所需的大量體能 也需要非常的專業。 再看一次,克萊伯 我們快快看下一個影片,好嗎? 你會看到出錯時的反應。
(Music) Again you see the beautiful body language. (Music) And now there is a trumpet player who does something not exactly the way it should be done. Go along with the video. Look. See, second time for the same player. (Laughter) And now the third time for the same player. (Laughter) "Wait for me after the concert. I have a short notice to give you." You know, when it's needed, the authority is there. It's very important. But authority is not enough to make people your partners.
(音樂) 再次看到美妙的身體語言 (音樂) 有個小號手 吹錯了 看影片,你看 看到嗎? 第二次,同樣的人犯錯 (笑聲) 第三次又犯錯 (笑聲) "演奏結束之後,等我一下 有點事情要跟你談" 你看,需要的時候,還是有權威的。這很重要。 但僅有權威,不足以讓人成為你的夥伴。
Let's see the next video, please. See what happens here. You might be surprised having seen Kleiber as such a hyperactive guy. He's conducting Mozart. (Music) The whole orchestra is playing. (Music) Now something else. (Music) See? He is there 100 percent, but not commanding, not telling what to do. Rather enjoying what the soloist is doing. (Music)
讓我再看下一段影片。看看發生什麼事。 你可能很訝異-- 相較克萊伯剛才這麼過動 他在指揮莫札特的音樂 (音樂) 整個樂團都在演奏 (音樂) 這邊出現了點變化 (音樂) 看到了嗎?他完全融入, 而且不指揮,不說該怎麼做 只是享受那位獨奏的音樂 (音樂)
Another solo now. See what you can pick up from this. (Music) Look at the eyes. Okay. You see that? First of all, it's a kind of a compliment we all like to get. It's not feedback. It's an "Mmmm ..." Yeah, it comes from here. So that's a good thing. And the second thing is it's about actually being in control, but in a very special way. When Kleiber does -- did you see the eyes, going from here? (Singing) You know what happens? Gravitation is no more.
另外一段獨奏。看看,你可以從這裡發現什麼 (音樂) 你們看他的眼睛 好,看到了嗎? 首先,那是我們每個人都想得到的讚賞的神情 不是回饋,是"嗯 ..." 是,從這裡發出來的 所以這是好事 第二呢? 就是真正的掌控, 但,是以很特殊的方式。 當克萊伯做這個動作 – 你有注意他的眼睛嗎? 從這裡,這樣? 你知道發生什麼事了嗎? 地心引力不存在了
Kleiber not only creates a process, but also creates the conditions in the world in which this process takes place. So again, the oboe player is completely autonomous and therefore happy and proud of his work, and creative and all of that. And the level in which Kleiber is in control is in a different level. So control is no longer a zero-sum game. You have this control. You have this control. And all you put together, in partnership, brings about the best music. So Kleiber is about process. Kleiber is about conditions in the world.
克萊伯不只創造了一個過程 也創造了世界的狀態 在狀態裡,進行這過程 所以,這位雙簧管樂手 是完全自主的 所以對自己的表現既開心又驕傲 而且有創造性等等。 克萊伯所掌控的,是在另一個層次 他讓掌控不再是零合賽局 你有這種掌控,你有那種掌控,然後大家合在一起, 像夥伴一樣,奏出最棒的音樂 所以,克萊伯會關注過程 克萊伯會關注整體環境的狀態。
But you need to have process and content to create the meaning. Lenny Bernstein, my own personal maestro. Since he was a great teacher, Lenny Bernstein always started from the meaning. Look at this, please.
但你需要過程和內容,來創造意義。 倫納德·伯恩斯坦,我最景仰的指揮大師 他是個偉大的老師 倫納德·伯恩斯坦總是從意義著手。 看看這段影片。
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Do you remember the face of Muti, at the beginning? Well he had a wonderful expression, but only one. (Laughter) Did you see Lenny's face? You know why? Because the meaning of the music is pain. And you're playing a painful sound. And you look at Lenny and he's suffering. But not in a way that you want to stop. It's suffering, like, enjoying himself in a Jewish way, as they say. (Laughter) But you can see the music on his face. You can see the baton left his hand. No more baton. Now it's about you, the player, telling the story. Now it's a reversed thing. You're telling the story. And you're telling the story. And even briefly, you become the storyteller to which the community, the whole community, listens to. And Bernstein enables that. Isn't that wonderful?
你們記得慕提的臉嗎?一開始的時候? 他的表情很棒,但只有一個表情 (笑聲) 你們看到倫納德的臉嗎? 知道為什麼嗎? 因為這個音樂在表達痛苦。 正在演奏的是痛苦的聲音。 你看到倫納德,他正在受苦。 但,不是你想讓他停下來的那種苦, 是受苦。是所謂「猶太人自得其樂」的苦。 (笑聲) 但是,在他的臉上可以看見音樂 你們可以看見他沒有用指揮棒。不需要指揮棒了! 現在是你,演奏者-- 在說故事 這是反過來的。 你正在說故事,所以就由你來說故事。 即使很短暫,你就成了說故事的人 講故事,給所有的群眾聽 伯恩斯坦讓它發生。是不是很棒?
Now, if you are doing all the things we talked about, together, and maybe some others, you can get to this wonderful point of doing without doing. And for the last video, I think this is simply the best title. My friend Peter says, "If you love something, give it away." So, please.
如果你們一起,實踐了所有我講過的事 或許還有一些我沒講到的 你就可以到達「無為而治」的境界了 無為而治,就是最後這段影片,最好的標題 我的朋友彼得說: "把你所愛的送出去"。 所以,請。
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