The magical moment, the magical moment of conducting. Which is, you go onto a stage. There is an orchestra sitting. They are all, you know, warming up and doing stuff. And I go on the podium. You know, this little office of the conductor. Or rather a cubicle, an open-space cubicle, with a lot of space. And in front of all that noise, you do a very small gesture. Something like this, not very pomp, not very sophisticated, this. And suddenly, out of the chaos, order. Noise becomes music.
神奇的一刻。对于指挥家来讲最为奇妙的时刻就是 当你走到台上,底下的乐队成员已经就座 他们在热身,为演出做着准备 然后我走上指挥台 我的“小办公室” 或者说,一个开放的小隔间 背后空间广阔 面对下面纷杂的噪声 我会做一个很小的动作 像这样,不夸张,很简单,就这样 突然间,从一边混乱变得井井有条 噪声变成了美妙的音乐
And this is fantastic. And it's so tempting to think that it's all about me. (Laughter) All those great people here, virtuosos, they make noise, they need me to do that. Not really. If it were that, I would just save you the talk, and teach you the gesture. So you could go out to the world and do this thing in whatever company or whatever you want, and you have perfect harmony. It doesn't work. Let's look at the first video. I hope you'll think it's a good example of harmony. And then speak a little bit about how it comes about.
这感觉非常奇妙,几乎让我 以为这一切都是我的功劳。 (笑声) 所有在场的大师, 音乐家 只发出杂音, 他们需要我才可演奏 这不是真的, 如果是这样 我就不用做这个演讲 只教您指挥的手势 让您走出世界 在任何公司或环境做这个 您便有完美的和谐. 不, 这是行不通的. 我们看第一段影片 我希望您認为这是一个和谐的好例子 然后我会讲一下和谐是如何发生
(Music)
(音乐)
Was that nice? So that was a sort of a success. Now, who should we thank for the success? I mean, obviously the orchestra musicians playing beautifully, the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra. They don't often even look at the conductor. Then you have the clapping audience, yeah, actually taking part in doing the music. You know Viennese audiences usually don't interfere with the music. This is the closest to an Oriental bellydancing feast that you will ever get in Vienna. (Laughter)
很棒吗? 这算是一种成功 那我们该归功于谁? 明显是乐团的乐手. 他们演奏很美 维也纳爱乐团 他们甚至不看指挥 还有拍和的观众 也实际上参与演出 维也纳爱乐团的观众通常不干扰演奏 对维也纳人来说 这种反应, 就像看东方肚皮舞嘉年华 (笑声)
Unlike, for example Israel, where audiences cough all the time. You know, Arthur Rubinstein, the pianist, used to say that, "Anywhere in the world, people that have the flu, they go to the doctor. In Tel Aviv they come to my concerts." (Laughter) So that's a sort of a tradition. But Viennese audiences do not do that. Here they go out of their regular, just to be part of that, to become part of the orchestra, and that's great. You know, audiences like you, yeah, make the event.
不像, 举例说, 以色列的观众, 老在咳嗽 钢琴家鲁宾思坦说过 "世界任何一方, 人一旦有流感, 会去看医生. 但在特拉唯夫, 人有流感, 老是来我的演奏会 (笑声) 所以, 像一种传统 但维也纳观众不会那样做 在影片里, 他们走出常规, 成为音乐的一部分 也成为乐团的一部分, 那是很棒. 乐团观众都像你们 让这演讲成功.
But what about the conductor? What can you say the conductor was doing, actually? Um, he was happy. And I often show this to senior management. People get annoyed. "You come to work. How come you're so happy?" Something must be wrong there, yeah? But he's spreading happiness. And I think the happiness, the important thing is this happiness does not come from only his own story and his joy of the music. The joy is about enabling other people's stories to be heard at the same time.
但是指挥呢? 你怎么说? 指挥实际做什么? 嗯, 他很快乐. 我常放这段影片给管理高层看 他们看得很懊恼 "你是来做工的, 为什么您这么高兴?" 一定有什么不对劲, 嗯? 但他在散播快乐 最重要的事是这快乐 不是来自于 他自己的故事, 而是他对音乐的喜悦 这种喜悦是让其他人的故事 同时被听到
You have the story of the orchestra as a professional body. You have the story of the audience as a community. Yeah. You have the stories of the individuals in the orchestra and in the audience. And then you have other stories, unseen. People who build this wonderful concert hall. People who made those Stradivarius, Amati, all those beautiful instruments. And all those stories are being heard at the same time. This is the true experience of a live concert. That's a reason to go out of home. Yeah? And not all conductors do just that. Let's see somebody else, a great conductor. Riccardo Muti, please.
你听到乐团作为专业团体的故事 观众社区的故事. 嗯. 乐团中和观众里 个人的故事 然后你有其他看不见的故事 建造这美不胜收的音乐厅的人 造那些美妙的史塔地伐利艾斯, 阿玛提乐器的人 那些所有的故事都同时被听到 这就是现场演奏的真实经验 这不就是踏出家门的理由? 但不是所有指挥家都只做这些. 现在看另一位伟大的指挥家. 里卡多穆提
(Music)
(音乐)
Yeah, that was very short, but you could see it's a completely different figure. Right? He's awesome. He's so commanding. Yeah? So clear. Maybe a little bit over-clear. Can we have a little demonstration? Would you be my orchestra for a second? Can you sing, please, the first note of Don Giovanni? You have to sing "Aaaaaah," and I'll stop you. Okay? Ready?
这片段很短. 但是你看到的 是一个完全不同的形象. 对吗? 他很有威严, 很严格. 很清晰, 可能有点过头 我们可以做点示范吗? 你们可暂时当我的乐园吗? 你们可以唱唐喬凡尼的第一个音吗? 你要唱"啊..", 然后我叫你停. 可以吗? 凖备好没有?
Audience: ♫ Aaaaaaah ... ♫
观众: 啊
Itay Talgam: Come on, with me. If you do it without me I feel even more redundant than I already feel. So please, wait for the conductor. Now look at me. "Aaaaaah," and I stop you. Let's go.
依泰塔干: 跟着我, 拜托. 如果你们没有我也做到 我更加觉得自己比刚刚更多余 所以拜托, 请等指挥示意 现在看着我. "啊..." 然后我要你停. 好, 开始.
Audience: ♫ ... Aaaaaaaah ... ♫ (Laughter)
观众: 啊..... (笑声)
Itay Talgam: So we'll have a little chat later. (Laughter) But ... There is a vacancy for a ... But -- (Laughter) -- you could see that you could stop an orchestra with a finger. Now what does Riccardo Muti do? He does something like this ... (Laughter) And then -- sort of -- (Laughter) So not only the instruction is clear, but also the sanction, what will happen if you don't do what I tell you. (Laughter) So, does it work? Yes, it works -- to a certain point.
依泰塔干: 待会我们要聊一聊. (笑声) 但是....这边有一个....空缺 可是- (笑声) - 你看到你可以用手指示意叫停乐队 里卡多穆提做甚么? 他大概是这样.... (笑声) 然后...类似这样 - (笑声) 不但指示很清楚, 还要有他的认可. 你若不依我, 要你好看. (笑声) 那行得通吗? 是的, 行的- 某方面是行的.
When Muti is asked, "Why do you conduct like this?" He says, "I'm responsible." Responsible in front of him. No he doesn't really mean Him. He means Mozart, which is -- (Laughter) -- like a third seat from the center. (Laughter) So he says, "If I'm -- (Applause) if I'm responsible for Mozart, this is going to be the only story to be told. It's Mozart as I, Riccardo Muti, understand it."
当穆提被问: "为何你这样指挥?" 他说: "我负有责任." 对着他负责任. 可他指的是"他"而不是"祂". 他是指莫扎特. 就像- (笑声) - 在正中第三个位 (笑声) 所以他说: " 如果我 - (喝彩) 如果我对莫扎特负责, 这就是唯一的故事. 这就是我里卡多穆提所理解的莫扎特."
And you know what happened to Muti? Three years ago he got a letter signed by all 700 employees of La Scala, musical employees, I mean the musicians, saying, "You're a great conductor. We don't want to work with you. Please resign." (Laughter) "Why? Because you don't let us develop. You're using us as instruments, not as partners. And our joy of music, etc., etc. ..." So he had to resign. Isn't that nice? (Laughter) He's a nice guy. He's a really nice guy. Well, can you do it with less control, or with a different kind of control? Let's look at the next conductor, Richard Strauss.
你知穆提后来遭遇甚么? 三年前他收到一封 斯卡拉歌剧院全体七百员工署名的信. 乐团员工, 我指的是乐手. 信件说:" 你是一位伟大的指挥家. 我们不想跟你一工作. 请辞职." (笑声) "为甚么? 因为你不让我们发展. 你把我们当工具使用, 不是伙伴. 还有我们对音乐的乐趣, 等等...." 因此他一定要辞职. 这不是很好吗? (笑声) 他是一个好人. 人真的非常好. 哪, 可以少点操控, 或者用另一种控制? 现在看另外一位指挥家李察史特勞斯.
(Music)
(音乐)
I'm afraid you'll get the feeling that I really picked on him because he's old. It's not true. When he was a young man of about 30, he wrote what he called "The Ten Commandments for Conductors." The first one was: If you sweat by the end of the concert it means that you must have done something wrong. That's the first one. The fourth one you'll like better. It says: Never look at the trombones -- it only encourages them. (Laughter)
我恐怕你会觉得我会因他老而选择他. 其实不然. 当时他还年轻 大约在三十岁时, 他写下他叫做 "指挥家的十诫" 第一诫是:"如果音乐会结束前有流汗的话, 即是说你一定有不当之处. 这是第一条. 第四条你会喜欢多一点. 它说:"永远不要望喇叭手- 否则只会鼓励他们. (笑声)
So, the whole idea is really to let it happen by itself. Do not interfere. But how does it happen? Did you see him turning pages in the score? Now, either he is senile, and doesn't remember his own music, because he wrote the music. Or he is actually transferring a very strong message to them, saying, "Come on guys. You have to play by the book. So it's not about my story. It's not about your story. It's only the execution of the written music, no interpretation." Interpretation is the real story of the performer. So, no, he doesn't want that. That's a different kind of control. Let's see another super-conductor, a German super-conductor. Herbert von Karajan, please.
所以, 整个想法是让它 自然的发生 不要干预. 但它如何自然的发生? 你有没有见到 他翻乐谱? 要么他是老态龙钟, 不记得自己的音乐, 因为音乐是他写的. 或者, 他在对他们传达一个很强的信息. 说道: " 大家记住, 要跟乐谱演奏. 这不是我的故事, 也不是你的. 只要把写好的音乐奏出, 不是演绎. 演绎是表演者的真实故事. 所以, 不, 他不要这种. 那是另一种控制. 现在看另一位超级指挥家. 德国超凡的指挥, 荷孛卡拉扬. 有请.
(Music)
(音乐)
What's different? Did you see the eyes? Closed. Did you see the hands? Did you see this kind of movement? Let me conduct you. Twice. Once like a Muti, and you'll -- (Claps) -- clap, just once. And then like Karajan. Let's see what happens. Okay? Like Muti. You ready? Because Muti ... (Laughter) Okay? Ready? Let's do it.
有甚么不同? 你看到他的眼睛吗? 是闭上的. 你看到他的手吗? 你看过这种手势吗? 让我指挥你们. 倆次. 一次像穆提, 你要 - (拍手) - 拍手, 只拍一次. 然后像卡拉扬. 让我们看会发生甚么. 行吗? 像穆提. 大家准备好没有? 因为穆提...... (笑声) 行吗? 准备好吗? 好, 大家做.
Audience: (Claps)
观众: (拍手)
Itay Talgam: Hmm ... again.
依泰塔干: 嗯......再一次.
Audience: (Claps) Itay Talgam: Good. Now like a Karajan. Since you're already trained, let me concentrate, close my eyes. Come, come.
观众: (拍手) 依泰塔干: 好. 现在像卡拉扬. 你们已受过训练. 让我聚精会神, 闭上眼, 来吧, 来吧.
Audience: (Claps) (Laughter)
观众: (拍手) (笑声)
Itay Talgam: Why not together? (Laughter) Because you didn't know when to play. Now I can tell you, even the Berlin Philharmonic doesn't know when to play. (Laughter) But I'll tell you how they do it. No cynicism. This is a German orchestra, yes? They look at Karajan. And then they look at each other. (Laughter) "Do you understand what this guy wants?" And after doing that, they really look at each other, and the first players of the orchestra lead the whole ensemble in playing together.
依泰塔伽: 为什么不齐? (笑声) 因为你不知道甚么时候开始. 我可以告诉你,甚至柏林爱乐団 也不知道甚么时候开始. (笑声) 但我会告诉你他们怎样做. 没有嘲讽的意思. 这是德国的乐团, 对吗? 他们看着卡拉扬, 然后互望. (笑声) "你知不知这个人想怎样?" 之后, 他们认真的望着对方, 然后乐团的首席乐手 带领整个乐队一起演奏.
And when Karajan is asked about it he actually says, "Yes, the worst damage I can do to my orchestra is to give them a clear instruction. Because that would prevent the ensemble, the listening to each other that is needed for an orchestra." Now that's great. What about the eyes? Why are the eyes closed? There is a wonderful story about Karajan conducting in London. And he cues in a flute player like this. The guy has no idea what to do. (Laughter) "Maestro, with all due respect, when should I start?" What do you think Karajan's reply was? When should I start? Oh yeah. He says, "You start when you can't stand it anymore." (Laughter)
当卡拉扬被问及关于这点时 他实际上说:"是的, 我对乐团能做成 最大的埙害 是给他们一个请晰的指令 因为这会妨碍乐队 聆听对方 这对一个交响乐团是必要的." 好, 哪眼睛又怎么样? 为什么眼是闭的? 有一个关于卡拉扬在伦敦指挥的故事. 他向一个长笛手这样示意. 那人不明白做甚么. (笑声) "大师, 请恕我直言, 我应何时开始?" 你认为卡拉扬会怎样回答? 我应何时开始? 噢对. 他说,"到你忍无可忍的时候, 你便开始吧." (笑声)
Meaning that you know you have no authority to change anything. It's my music. The real music is only in Karajan's head. And you have to guess my mind. So you are under tremendous pressure because I don't give you instruction, and yet, you have to guess my mind. So it's a different kind of, a very spiritual but yet very firm control. Can we do it in another way? Of course we can. Let's go back to the first conductor we've seen: Carlos Kleiber, his name. Next video, please.
意思是你知道你是无权去改动任何东西的. 这是我的音乐. 真正的音乐只在卡拉扬的脑袋里. 然后你要猜我的思路. 哪你便处于巨大压力之下. 因为我没有給你指示, 但是, 你依然要去猜我的想法. 所以这是不同类别的, 一种精神上的; 但, 非常牢固的控制. 我们能否用另一种方法去做? 我们当然能做到. 让我们回顾 我们刚看过的第一个指挥: 他叫卡露思卡雷贝. 请放下一段影片.
(Music)
(音乐)
(Laughter) Yeah. Well, it is different. But isn't that controlling in the same way? No, it's not, because he is not telling them what to do. When he does this, it's not, "Take your Stradivarius and like Jimi Hendrix, smash it on the floor." It's not that. He says, "This is the gesture of the music. I'm opening a space for you to put in another layer of interpretation." That is another story.
(笑声) 呀.. 这不一样. 但是不是同样的控制着? 不, 不是. 因他没有告诉他们做甚么. 当他告诉他们时, 并不是 "拿你的司塔地法里宇司(小提琴) 然后像季密亨地里西 一般 把琴抽杀在地板上 ." 不是这样. 他说," 这是音乐的姿势 我为你开放一个空间 让你投入演绎的 另一个层次." 那就是另一回事.
But how does it really work together if it doesn't give them instructions? It's like being on a rollercoaster. Yeah? You're not really given any instructions, but the forces of the process itself keep you in place. That's what he does. The interesting thing is of course the rollercoaster does not really exist. It's not a physical thing. It's in the players' heads.
但他们如何真正的合作, 如果没有对他们下指令? 像坐在过山车,对吧? 你没有真正收到任何指示. 但过程的力量会带着你, 让你到位. 这就是他所做的. 有趣的地方, 就是跟本没有过山车. 当然不是真的过山车, 它是在乐手脑袋中.
And that's what makes them into partners. You have the plan in your head. You know what to do, even though Kleiber is not conducting you. But here and there and that. You know what to do. And you become a partner building the rollercoaster, yeah, with sound, as you actually take the ride. This is very exciting for those players. They do need to go to a sanatorium for two weeks, later. (Laughter) It is very tiring. Yeah? But it's the best music making, like this.
而就是那东西令他们成为伙伴. 你成竹在脑 虽则卡雷贝没有指挥你, 你也知道要做甚么. 但这边, 那边和那个, 你知道要做甚么. 而你用声音, 呀, 变成建造过山车的伙伴. 而你也实际上在车里. 对那些乐手来说是非常刺激的. 之后, 他们肯定要到疗养院住俩星期. (笑声) 它非常令人疲累. 对不? 但是, 像这样是最好的音乐演奏.
But of course it's not only about motivation and giving them a lot of physical energy. You also have to be very professional. And look again at this Kleiber. Can we have the next video, quickly? You'll see what happens when there is a mistake.
但当然, 这不单是因为激励 和给他们很多身体能量. 同时, 你要非常专业. 再看卡雷贝. 请放映下一个片段, 可以快点吗? 你会看到出岔子时有甚么发生.
(Music) Again you see the beautiful body language. (Music) And now there is a trumpet player who does something not exactly the way it should be done. Go along with the video. Look. See, second time for the same player. (Laughter) And now the third time for the same player. (Laughter) "Wait for me after the concert. I have a short notice to give you." You know, when it's needed, the authority is there. It's very important. But authority is not enough to make people your partners.
(音乐) 你再次看到美妙的身体语言. (音乐) 现在是一个喇叭手, 他做了一些完全不该做的. 看着片段. 看吧. 看到吧, 同一个乐手第二次了, (笑声) 现在又是同一个乐手, 第三次了. (笑声) "音乐会后等我. 我有简短的通知给你." 当有需要时, 权威要在. 是很重要的. 但权威不足以把他人变成你的伙伴.
Let's see the next video, please. See what happens here. You might be surprised having seen Kleiber as such a hyperactive guy. He's conducting Mozart. (Music) The whole orchestra is playing. (Music) Now something else. (Music) See? He is there 100 percent, but not commanding, not telling what to do. Rather enjoying what the soloist is doing. (Music)
请看下一段影片. 看有甚么发生. 看到卡雷贝如此过度活跃 你可能会惊讶. 他在指挥莫扎特的音乐. (音乐) 整个乐团在演奏. (音乐) 现在还有另一些东西. (音乐) 看到吗? 他在这边百分之百, 没有命令, 没有指定要做甚么. 只是享受独奏家所做的. (音乐)
Another solo now. See what you can pick up from this. (Music) Look at the eyes. Okay. You see that? First of all, it's a kind of a compliment we all like to get. It's not feedback. It's an "Mmmm ..." Yeah, it comes from here. So that's a good thing. And the second thing is it's about actually being in control, but in a very special way. When Kleiber does -- did you see the eyes, going from here? (Singing) You know what happens? Gravitation is no more.
另一个独奏家. 看一下你看出些甚么. (音乐) 望着他们的 眼睛. 好. 你看到那个吗? 首先, 是一种每个人都想要的讃许. 不是回应. 是"好..." 呀, 是从这里来的. 所以那是好事. 然后第二件事 是它实际上以一种非常特别的方式 在控制. 当卡雷贝控制时 - 你有没有看到他的眼睛 是从这里看过去? 你知道是甚么回事? 再没有地心吸力.
Kleiber not only creates a process, but also creates the conditions in the world in which this process takes place. So again, the oboe player is completely autonomous and therefore happy and proud of his work, and creative and all of that. And the level in which Kleiber is in control is in a different level. So control is no longer a zero-sum game. You have this control. You have this control. And all you put together, in partnership, brings about the best music. So Kleiber is about process. Kleiber is about conditions in the world.
卡雷贝不单创造一个过程, 也在世上创造让这个过程发生的 条件. 所以再一次, 单簧管手 是完全的自主 因此他很快乐, 为自己的工作骄傲, 而且有创意.. 卡雷贝所控制的层面是在不同的层次. 所以控制不再是零和游戏. 你有这种控制力量. 你有这种控制力量. 然后你把所有的力量 以伙伴集聚, 而产生最好的音乐. 所以卡雷贝是关于过程. 卡雷贝是关于世界的条件.
But you need to have process and content to create the meaning. Lenny Bernstein, my own personal maestro. Since he was a great teacher, Lenny Bernstein always started from the meaning. Look at this, please.
但你必需有过程和内容来创造意义. 乐尼北司提汀, 我心爱的大师 是在于他是个好老师. 乐尼北司提汀常以意义出发. 请看这段影片.
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(音乐)
Do you remember the face of Muti, at the beginning? Well he had a wonderful expression, but only one. (Laughter) Did you see Lenny's face? You know why? Because the meaning of the music is pain. And you're playing a painful sound. And you look at Lenny and he's suffering. But not in a way that you want to stop. It's suffering, like, enjoying himself in a Jewish way, as they say. (Laughter) But you can see the music on his face. You can see the baton left his hand. No more baton. Now it's about you, the player, telling the story. Now it's a reversed thing. You're telling the story. And you're telling the story. And even briefly, you become the storyteller to which the community, the whole community, listens to. And Bernstein enables that. Isn't that wonderful?
你还记的穆提的样子吗? 我们开始时看的. 他有一个很棒的表情, 但只有这一个. (笑声) 你有没有看到乐尼的脸? 你知道为甚么吗? 因为音乐的意义是痛苦. 而你在演奏痛苦的声音. 你看看乐尼, 他在受苦. 但不是一种你想停止的痛苦. 是受苦, 像人说的, 好像他以犹太人的身份去享受 (笑声) 但你可以看到在他脸上的音乐. 你可以看到指挥棒已离开他的手. 已没有指挥棒. 现在作为乐手的你最重要, 你去说故事. 现在是反过来. 你在说故事. 而你是在说故事. 简而言之, 你变成说故事的人. 你向社会说, 整个社会在聆听. 而萡恩思庭让他们做到. 这不是很棒吗?
Now, if you are doing all the things we talked about, together, and maybe some others, you can get to this wonderful point of doing without doing. And for the last video, I think this is simply the best title. My friend Peter says, "If you love something, give it away." So, please.
现在, 如果你们一起做所有我们讨论过的. 或者和一点其它的, 你会到这美妙的点 - 无为而为. 现在看最后的录像, 我想这是最好的片段. 我的朋友彼得說 "如你爱某些东西, 把它送出去." 所以, 请!
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