The magical moment, the magical moment of conducting. Which is, you go onto a stage. There is an orchestra sitting. They are all, you know, warming up and doing stuff. And I go on the podium. You know, this little office of the conductor. Or rather a cubicle, an open-space cubicle, with a lot of space. And in front of all that noise, you do a very small gesture. Something like this, not very pomp, not very sophisticated, this. And suddenly, out of the chaos, order. Noise becomes music.
Čarobni trenutak, čarobni trenutak dirigiranja znači, dolazite na pozornicu gdje sjedi orkestar. Oni se zagrijavaju i rade razne sitnice. Ja se penjem na podij. Znate, onaj mali dirigentski ured, odnosno kutak, radni kutak u otvorenom prostoru s puno mjesta. I u svoj toj buci napravite sasvim mali pokret. Nešto poput ovoga - ništa pompozno niti jako profinjeno - ovo. I najednom - iz kaosa nastane red. Buka postaje glazba
And this is fantastic. And it's so tempting to think that it's all about me. (Laughter) All those great people here, virtuosos, they make noise, they need me to do that. Not really. If it were that, I would just save you the talk, and teach you the gesture. So you could go out to the world and do this thing in whatever company or whatever you want, and you have perfect harmony. It doesn't work. Let's look at the first video. I hope you'll think it's a good example of harmony. And then speak a little bit about how it comes about.
i to je fantastično i tako je primamljivo pomisliti da se sve vrti oko mene. (smijeh) Svi ti sjajni ljudi, virtuozi, stvaraju buku i trebaju me da učinim ovo. Ne baš. Da je tako, poštedio bih vas priče i podučio vas pokretu kako biste mogli ići po svijetu i raditi to u bilo kojoj tvrtki ili gdje god želite i dobiti savršenu harmoniju. Ali ne funkcionira. Pogledajmo prvu snimku. Nadam se da ćete pomisliti kako je ovo dobar primjer harmonije, a potom ću malo govoriti kako ona nastaje.
(Music)
(glazba)
Was that nice? So that was a sort of a success. Now, who should we thank for the success? I mean, obviously the orchestra musicians playing beautifully, the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra. They don't often even look at the conductor. Then you have the clapping audience, yeah, actually taking part in doing the music. You know Viennese audiences usually don't interfere with the music. This is the closest to an Oriental bellydancing feast that you will ever get in Vienna. (Laughter)
Je li ovo bilo lijepo? To je bila neka vrsta uspjeha, ali kome smo dužni zahvalu? Naravno, očito je da glazbenici u orkestru predivno sviraju, to je Bečka filharmonija. Često čak ni ne pogledaju dirigenta. A tu je i publika koja plješće, čime zapravo preuzima ulogu u stvaranju glazbe. Znate, bečka publika se obično ne upliće u glazbu. Ovo je najbliže doživljaju orijentalnog trbušnog plesa za pojam Beča. (smijeh)
Unlike, for example Israel, where audiences cough all the time. You know, Arthur Rubinstein, the pianist, used to say that, "Anywhere in the world, people that have the flu, they go to the doctor. In Tel Aviv they come to my concerts." (Laughter) So that's a sort of a tradition. But Viennese audiences do not do that. Here they go out of their regular, just to be part of that, to become part of the orchestra, and that's great. You know, audiences like you, yeah, make the event.
Za razliku od Izraela, na primjer, gdje publika cijelo vrijeme kašlje. Pijanist Arthur Rubinstein je znao reći: "Bilo gdje u svijetu, ljudi koji imaju gripu, odlaze liječniku, ali u Tel Avivu dolaze na moje koncerte." (smijeh) To je neka vrsta tradicije, ali bečka publika to ne radi. Ovdje se ponašaju neuobičajeno, samo kako bi postali dio orkestra - i to je sjajno. Znate, publika poput vas stvara ugođaj.
But what about the conductor? What can you say the conductor was doing, actually? Um, he was happy. And I often show this to senior management. People get annoyed. "You come to work. How come you're so happy?" Something must be wrong there, yeah? But he's spreading happiness. And I think the happiness, the important thing is this happiness does not come from only his own story and his joy of the music. The joy is about enabling other people's stories to be heard at the same time.
Ali što je s dirigentom? Što biste rekli, što on zapravo radi? Pa, on je sretan. Ovo često pokazujem višem menadžmentu. To ih živcira: "Došao si na posao. Kako možeš biti tako sretan?" Tu nešto mora biti krivo, zar ne? Ali on širi sreću. I mislim da je važno to da ta sreća ne dolazi samo iz njega i njegovog užitka u glazbi. Užitak je omogućiti i drugim ljudima da ispričaju svoju priču u isto to vrijeme.
You have the story of the orchestra as a professional body. You have the story of the audience as a community. Yeah. You have the stories of the individuals in the orchestra and in the audience. And then you have other stories, unseen. People who build this wonderful concert hall. People who made those Stradivarius, Amati, all those beautiful instruments. And all those stories are being heard at the same time. This is the true experience of a live concert. That's a reason to go out of home. Yeah? And not all conductors do just that. Let's see somebody else, a great conductor. Riccardo Muti, please.
Imate priču o orkestru kao profesionalnom tijelu, a imate i priču o publici kao zajednici. Imate priče pojedinaca u orkestru i u publici, a imate i one nevidljive - priče ljudi koji su izgradili ovu prekrasnu koncertnu dvoranu, ljudi koji su izradili ovog Stradivarija ili Amatija, sve ove prekrasne instrumente. Sve te priče zvuče u isto vrijeme. To je pravo iskustvo koncerta uživo. To je razlog za izlazak iz kuće, zar ne? No ne rade svi dirigenti tako. Pogledajmo jednog drugog, velikog dirigenta Riccarda Mutija, molim.
(Music)
(glazba)
Yeah, that was very short, but you could see it's a completely different figure. Right? He's awesome. He's so commanding. Yeah? So clear. Maybe a little bit over-clear. Can we have a little demonstration? Would you be my orchestra for a second? Can you sing, please, the first note of Don Giovanni? You have to sing "Aaaaaah," and I'll stop you. Okay? Ready?
Ovo je bilo vrlo kratko, ali mogli ste vidjeti potpuno drukčiju osobu, zar ne? On je sjajan, tako je autoritativan, tako jasan. Možda čak i malo previše jasan. Možemo li nešto demonstrirati? Hoćete li biti moj orkestar na kratko? Možete li, molim vas, otpjevati prvu notu Don Giovannija? Trebate pjevati "Aaaaaah", a ja ću vas zaustaviti. Ok? Spremni?
Audience: ♫ Aaaaaaah ... ♫
Publika: ♫ Aaaaah...♫
Itay Talgam: Come on, with me. If you do it without me I feel even more redundant than I already feel. So please, wait for the conductor. Now look at me. "Aaaaaah," and I stop you. Let's go.
Itay Talgam: Pokušajmo zajedno, jer ako pjevate bez mene, osjećam se još nepotrebnijim nego sada. Zato vas molim, čekajte dirigenta. Sada me pogledajte - "Aaaaah" - i zaustavit ću vas. Pokušajmo.
Audience: ♫ ... Aaaaaaaah ... ♫ (Laughter)
Publika: ♫... Aaaaaah...♫ (smijeh)
Itay Talgam: So we'll have a little chat later. (Laughter) But ... There is a vacancy for a ... But -- (Laughter) -- you could see that you could stop an orchestra with a finger. Now what does Riccardo Muti do? He does something like this ... (Laughter) And then -- sort of -- (Laughter) So not only the instruction is clear, but also the sanction, what will happen if you don't do what I tell you. (Laughter) So, does it work? Yes, it works -- to a certain point.
Itay Talgam: OK, mi ćemo poslije malo popričati. (smijeh) Iako, imamo slobodno mjesto za... Ali... (smijeh) Vidite da možete zaustaviti orkestar pomoću prsta. No, što čini Riccardo Muti? Nešto poput ovoga... (smijeh) A onda nešto ovakvo... (smijeh) Ne samo da je uputa jasna, nego je jasna i kazna - što će se dogoditi ako ne napraviš to što sam ti rekao. (smijeh) Dakle, funkcionira li to? Da, ali samo do određene točke.
When Muti is asked, "Why do you conduct like this?" He says, "I'm responsible." Responsible in front of him. No he doesn't really mean Him. He means Mozart, which is -- (Laughter) -- like a third seat from the center. (Laughter) So he says, "If I'm -- (Applause) if I'm responsible for Mozart, this is going to be the only story to be told. It's Mozart as I, Riccardo Muti, understand it."
Kada su ga pitali zašto tako dirigira, Muti je rekao: "Ja sam odgovoran." Odgovoran sam prema njemu. Ne misli zapravo na Njega, misli na Mozarta koji je (smijeh) otprilike treće sjedalo od centra. (smijeh) Rekao je: "Ako sam... (pljesak) ...ako sam odgovoran prema Mozartu, to će biti jedina priča koja će se ispričati. koju ćemo samo Mozart i ja, Riccardo Muti, razumjeti."
And you know what happened to Muti? Three years ago he got a letter signed by all 700 employees of La Scala, musical employees, I mean the musicians, saying, "You're a great conductor. We don't want to work with you. Please resign." (Laughter) "Why? Because you don't let us develop. You're using us as instruments, not as partners. And our joy of music, etc., etc. ..." So he had to resign. Isn't that nice? (Laughter) He's a nice guy. He's a really nice guy. Well, can you do it with less control, or with a different kind of control? Let's look at the next conductor, Richard Strauss.
I znate što se dogodilo Mutiju? Prije tri godine, dobio je pismo kojeg je potpisalo svih 700 zaposlenika La Scale. Kad kažem zaposlenika, mislim na glazbenike. U pismu je stajalo: "Vi ste sjajan dirigent. Ne želimo raditi s vama. Molimo, predajte ostavku." (smijeh) "Zašto? Jer ne dopuštate da se razvijamo. Koristite nas kao instrumente, a ne kao partnere, a naše uživanje u glazbi...itd. itd." I tako je morao otići. Nije li to lijepo? (smijeh) On je dobar tip, stvarno je dobar. Dakle, može li se raditi s manje kontrole ili s drugom vrstom kontrole? Pogledajmo sljedećeg dirigenta, Richarda Straussa.
(Music)
(glazba)
I'm afraid you'll get the feeling that I really picked on him because he's old. It's not true. When he was a young man of about 30, he wrote what he called "The Ten Commandments for Conductors." The first one was: If you sweat by the end of the concert it means that you must have done something wrong. That's the first one. The fourth one you'll like better. It says: Never look at the trombones -- it only encourages them. (Laughter)
Bojim se da imate osjećaj da sam ga izabrao upravo zato jer je star, no to nije točno. Kada je bio mladić, od 30-ak godina, napisao je nešto što je nazvao "10 zapovijedi za dirigente". Prva je bila: Ako se uznojite do kraja koncerta, znači da ste nešto krivo napravili. To je prva. Četvrta će vam se više svidjeti, a kaže: Nikada ne gledajte trombone - to ih samo potiče. (smijeh)
So, the whole idea is really to let it happen by itself. Do not interfere. But how does it happen? Did you see him turning pages in the score? Now, either he is senile, and doesn't remember his own music, because he wrote the music. Or he is actually transferring a very strong message to them, saying, "Come on guys. You have to play by the book. So it's not about my story. It's not about your story. It's only the execution of the written music, no interpretation." Interpretation is the real story of the performer. So, no, he doesn't want that. That's a different kind of control. Let's see another super-conductor, a German super-conductor. Herbert von Karajan, please.
Cijela ideja je zapravo pustiti da se samo dogodi, ne uplitati se. Ali kako se to događa? Jeste li ga vidjeli kako okreće stranice partiture? Znači, ili je senilan i ne sjeća se vlastite glazbe, budući da ju je sam napisao - ili im zapravo prenosi vrlo snažnu poruku, koja kaže: "Ajmo, ljudi, morate svirati kako piše. Ne radi se o mojoj priči niti o vašoj, to je samo izvedba napisane glazbe, a ne interpretacija." Interpretacija je stvarna priča izvođača, no on to ne želi. To je drukčija vrsta kontrole. Pogledajmo još jednog odličnog dirigenta, njemačkog dirigenta Herberta von Karajana.
(Music)
(glazba)
What's different? Did you see the eyes? Closed. Did you see the hands? Did you see this kind of movement? Let me conduct you. Twice. Once like a Muti, and you'll -- (Claps) -- clap, just once. And then like Karajan. Let's see what happens. Okay? Like Muti. You ready? Because Muti ... (Laughter) Okay? Ready? Let's do it.
Što je drukčije? Jeste li vidjeli oči? Zatvorene su. Jeste li vidjeli ruke? Jeste li vidjeli ovakav pokret? Dajte da vas vodim. Dva puta. Jednom kao Muti kada ćete - (pljesne) - pljesnuti samo jednom, a onda kao Karajan. Pogledajmo što se događa, OK? Kao Muti - jeste li spremni? Jer Muti... (smijeh) OK, spremni? Krenimo.
Audience: (Claps)
Publika: (pljesak)
Itay Talgam: Hmm ... again.
Itay Talgam: Hm...još jednom.
Audience: (Claps) Itay Talgam: Good. Now like a Karajan. Since you're already trained, let me concentrate, close my eyes. Come, come.
Publika: (pljesak) Itay Talgam: Dobro, a sada poput Karajana. Pošto ste već uvježbani, Prvo ću se koncentrirati, zatvoriti oči...može.
Audience: (Claps) (Laughter)
Publika: (pljesak) (smijeh)
Itay Talgam: Why not together? (Laughter) Because you didn't know when to play. Now I can tell you, even the Berlin Philharmonic doesn't know when to play. (Laughter) But I'll tell you how they do it. No cynicism. This is a German orchestra, yes? They look at Karajan. And then they look at each other. (Laughter) "Do you understand what this guy wants?" And after doing that, they really look at each other, and the first players of the orchestra lead the whole ensemble in playing together.
Itay Talgam: Zašto niste skupa? (smijeh) Zato što niste znali kada trebate krenuti. Znate, čak ni Berlinska filharmonija ne zna kada treba krenuti. (smijeh) Reći ću vam kako, bez cinizma. To je njemački orkestar, OK? Gledaju u Karajana, a onda gledaju jedni u druge. (smijeh) "Razumiješ li što ovaj tip hoće?" Poslije toga, zaista se pogledaju te prvi svirači u orkestru povedu cijelu ansambl u zajedničko sviranje.
And when Karajan is asked about it he actually says, "Yes, the worst damage I can do to my orchestra is to give them a clear instruction. Because that would prevent the ensemble, the listening to each other that is needed for an orchestra." Now that's great. What about the eyes? Why are the eyes closed? There is a wonderful story about Karajan conducting in London. And he cues in a flute player like this. The guy has no idea what to do. (Laughter) "Maestro, with all due respect, when should I start?" What do you think Karajan's reply was? When should I start? Oh yeah. He says, "You start when you can't stand it anymore." (Laughter)
Kada su Karajana pitali o tome, rekao je: "Da, najveća šteta koju mogu učiniti svom orkestru je dati im jasnu uputu, zato što bi to onemogućilo da slušaju jedni druge, što je za orkestar nužno." To je sjajno. A što je s očima? Zašto su zatvorene? Postoji prekrasna priča o Karajanovom dirigiranju u Londonu. Dao je ovakav znak flautistu. Čovjek nije imao pojma što učiniti. (smijeh) "Maestro, uz dužno poštovanje, kada bih trebao početi?" Što mislite da je bio Karajanov odgovor - kada početi? Rekao mu je: "Počni onda kada više ne budeš mogao izdržati." (smijeh)
Meaning that you know you have no authority to change anything. It's my music. The real music is only in Karajan's head. And you have to guess my mind. So you are under tremendous pressure because I don't give you instruction, and yet, you have to guess my mind. So it's a different kind of, a very spiritual but yet very firm control. Can we do it in another way? Of course we can. Let's go back to the first conductor we've seen: Carlos Kleiber, his name. Next video, please.
Što znači da nemaš autoritet išta promijeniti, to je moja glazba. Prava glazba je samo u Karajanovoj glavi i ti moraš pogoditi što mislim. Zato si pod strašnim pritiskom, najprije ti ne dam znak, a opet, moraš pogoditi što mislim. To je drukčija vrsta, prilično duhovne, ali opet vrlo čvrste kontrole. Možemo li drukčije? Naravno. Vratimo se prvom dirigentu kojeg smo vidjeli, Carlosu Kleiberu. Molim sljedeću snimku.
(Music)
(glazba)
(Laughter) Yeah. Well, it is different. But isn't that controlling in the same way? No, it's not, because he is not telling them what to do. When he does this, it's not, "Take your Stradivarius and like Jimi Hendrix, smash it on the floor." It's not that. He says, "This is the gesture of the music. I'm opening a space for you to put in another layer of interpretation." That is another story.
(smijeh) Da. Ovo je drukčije. No, nije li to ista vrsta kontrole? Ne nije, jer im on ne govori što trebaju učiniti. Kada napravi ovo, to ne znači: "Uzmi svog Stradivarija pa ga, kao Jimi Hendrix, razbij o pod." Nije to. On kaže ovo: "Ovo je pokret glazbe, otvaram vam prostor za još jedan sloj interpretacije." To je druga priča.
But how does it really work together if it doesn't give them instructions? It's like being on a rollercoaster. Yeah? You're not really given any instructions, but the forces of the process itself keep you in place. That's what he does. The interesting thing is of course the rollercoaster does not really exist. It's not a physical thing. It's in the players' heads.
No, kako to sve skupa funkcionira ako im on ne da upute? To je poput rollercoastera kada zapravo nemate nikakve upute, ali vas sile samog procesa drže na mjestu. On čini upravo to. Zanimljivo je to da rollercoaster, naravno, zapravo ne postoji. On nije fizička stvar, nego je u glavama svirača.
And that's what makes them into partners. You have the plan in your head. You know what to do, even though Kleiber is not conducting you. But here and there and that. You know what to do. And you become a partner building the rollercoaster, yeah, with sound, as you actually take the ride. This is very exciting for those players. They do need to go to a sanatorium for two weeks, later. (Laughter) It is very tiring. Yeah? But it's the best music making, like this.
To je ono što ih čini partnerima. Moraš imati plan u glavi. Znaš što treba činiti, iako Kleiber ne dirigira vama, nego tu, tu i tu. Znaš što treba činiti. Time postaješ partner u izgradnji rollercoastera sa zvukom, a istovremeno se i voziš. Sviračima je to vrlo uzbudljivo, toliko da poslije moraju dva tjedna biti u sanatoriju. (smijeh) To je vrlo zamorno, ali je i najbolje stvaranje glazbe.
But of course it's not only about motivation and giving them a lot of physical energy. You also have to be very professional. And look again at this Kleiber. Can we have the next video, quickly? You'll see what happens when there is a mistake.
Naravno, ne radi se samo o motivaciji i predavanju velike fizičke energije, potrebno je biti vrlo profesionalan. Pogledajmo još jednom Kleibera. Možemo li brzo vidjeti sljedeću snimku? Vidjet ćete što se događa kada netko pogriješi.
(Music) Again you see the beautiful body language. (Music) And now there is a trumpet player who does something not exactly the way it should be done. Go along with the video. Look. See, second time for the same player. (Laughter) And now the third time for the same player. (Laughter) "Wait for me after the concert. I have a short notice to give you." You know, when it's needed, the authority is there. It's very important. But authority is not enough to make people your partners.
(glazba) Još jednom možete vidjeti prekrasan govor tijela. (glazba) Ovdje trubač čini nešto što ne bi trebao. Pratite snimku, gledajte. Vidite, drugi put istom sviraču. (smijeh) A sada i treći put istom sviraču. (smijeh) "Čekaj me poslije koncerta, moram ti uručiti otkaz." Vidite, kada je potreban, autoritet je prisutan. To je vrlo važno. No, autoritet nije dovoljan da bi ljude učinili svojim partnerima.
Let's see the next video, please. See what happens here. You might be surprised having seen Kleiber as such a hyperactive guy. He's conducting Mozart. (Music) The whole orchestra is playing. (Music) Now something else. (Music) See? He is there 100 percent, but not commanding, not telling what to do. Rather enjoying what the soloist is doing. (Music)
Molim sljedeću snimku. Pogledajmo što se ovdje događa. Možda će vas iznenaditi Kleiberova hiperaktivnost. Dirigira Mozarta. (glazba) Svira cijeli orkestar. (glazba) A sada nešto drugo. (glazba) Vidite? Sav je u tome, ali ne zapovijeda, ne govori što treba činiti. Umjesto toga, on uživa u izvedbi solista. (glazba)
Another solo now. See what you can pick up from this. (Music) Look at the eyes. Okay. You see that? First of all, it's a kind of a compliment we all like to get. It's not feedback. It's an "Mmmm ..." Yeah, it comes from here. So that's a good thing. And the second thing is it's about actually being in control, but in a very special way. When Kleiber does -- did you see the eyes, going from here? (Singing) You know what happens? Gravitation is no more.
Evo još jednog sola. Pogledajte što možete iščitati iz ovoga. (glazba) Pogledajte oči. OK. Jeste li vidjeli? Prije svega, svi volimo primiti takvu vrstu komplimenta. To nije povratna informacija. To je "Mmmm..." i dolazi odavde. To je dobra stvar. A druga stvar je vezana uz kontrolu, ali na jedan poseban način. Kada Kleiber učini ovo - jeste li vidjeli oči - odavde (pjeva), znate što se događa? Gravitacija nestaje.
Kleiber not only creates a process, but also creates the conditions in the world in which this process takes place. So again, the oboe player is completely autonomous and therefore happy and proud of his work, and creative and all of that. And the level in which Kleiber is in control is in a different level. So control is no longer a zero-sum game. You have this control. You have this control. And all you put together, in partnership, brings about the best music. So Kleiber is about process. Kleiber is about conditions in the world.
Kleiber ne stvara samo proces, nego i uvjete u svijetu u kojem se taj proces odvija. Tako oboist postaje potpuno samostalan, a time i sretan i ponosan na svoj rad, kreativnost i sve to. Razina Kleiberove kontrole je ne sasvim drugom stupnju. Kontrola više nije igra nulte sume. Imate jednu kontrolu, imate drugu kontrolu i onda ih spojite. Partnerstvo izvlači ono najbolje iz glazbe. Kleiberu su važni procesi, uvjeti u svijetu.
But you need to have process and content to create the meaning. Lenny Bernstein, my own personal maestro. Since he was a great teacher, Lenny Bernstein always started from the meaning. Look at this, please.
No, morate imati i proces i sadržaj da biste stvorili smisao. Lenny Bernstein, moj osobni maestro, budući da je bio sjajan učitelj, uvijek je kretao od smisla. Pogledajmo.
(Music)
(glazba)
Do you remember the face of Muti, at the beginning? Well he had a wonderful expression, but only one. (Laughter) Did you see Lenny's face? You know why? Because the meaning of the music is pain. And you're playing a painful sound. And you look at Lenny and he's suffering. But not in a way that you want to stop. It's suffering, like, enjoying himself in a Jewish way, as they say. (Laughter) But you can see the music on his face. You can see the baton left his hand. No more baton. Now it's about you, the player, telling the story. Now it's a reversed thing. You're telling the story. And you're telling the story. And even briefly, you become the storyteller to which the community, the whole community, listens to. And Bernstein enables that. Isn't that wonderful?
Sjećate li se Mutijevog lica s početka? Imao je krasan izraz, ali samo jedan. (smijeh) Jeste li vidjeli Lennyjevo lice? Znate zašto? Jer je smisao glazbe bol. Svirate bolan zvuk, pogledate Lennyja koji pati. No, ne na način koji biste željeli zaustaviti. Ta je patnja poput izreke "uživati na židovski način". (smijeh) No, možete mu na licu vidjeti glazbu. Vidite da više nema palicu u lijevoj ruci, nestala je. Radi se o o vama, sviraču, koji priča priču. Sada je obrnuto, vi i vi pričate priču. Makar nakratko, vi postajete pripovjedač kojega sluša cijela zajednica, a Bernstein to omogućuje. Nije li to krasno?
Now, if you are doing all the things we talked about, together, and maybe some others, you can get to this wonderful point of doing without doing. And for the last video, I think this is simply the best title. My friend Peter says, "If you love something, give it away." So, please.
Ako zajedno činite sve te stvari o kojima smo pričali, a možda još i neke druge, možete doći do te prelijepe točke "rada bez rada". Mislim da je ovo najbolji naslov za sljedeću snimku. Moj prijatelj Peter kaže: "Ako nešto volite, podijelite to." Zato, krenimo.
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