This year, Germany is celebrating the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution in East Germany. In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away, the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later, the German Democratic Republic, the GDR, in the East was unified with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West to found today's Germany. Among many other things, Germany inherited the archives of the East German secret police, known as the Stasi. Only two years after its dissolution, its documents were opened to the public, and historians such as me started to study these documents to learn more about how the GDR surveillance state functioned.
這一年,德國正在慶祝 前東德二十五週年 和平革命紀念日。 1989 年,共產主義政權垮台、 柏林圍牆倒塌,並且在一年後, 東邊的德意志民主共和國 簡稱GDR 和西邊的德意志聯邦共和國統一 成為今日的德國。 最重要的是, 德國承接前東德秘密警察的檔案, 稱為史塔西(即國家安全部)。 僅僅在前東德政權崩解二年後, 它的文件檔案就被公諸於世, 而跟我一樣的歷史學家們 就開始研究這些文件, 想了解前東德的監控機制 如何運作。
Perhaps you have watched the movie "The Lives of Others." This movie made the Stasi known worldwide, and as we live in an age where words such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping" are on the front pages of newspapers, I would like to speak about how the Stasi really worked.
也許你已經看過那部電影 《竊聽風暴》。 這部電影讓史塔西名揚全球。 生長在一個 「監視」或「竊聽」等字眼 常出現在報紙頭條的年代, 我很樂意分享史塔西 實際上是如何運作的。
At the beginning, let's have a short look at the history of the Stasi, because it's really important for understanding its self-conception. Its origins are located in Russia. In 1917, the Russian Communists founded the Emergency Commission for Combating Counter-Revolution and Sabotage, shortly Cheka. It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky. The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists to establish their regime by terrorizing the population and executing their enemies. It evolved later into the well-known KGB. The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers. They called themselves Chekists, and even the emblem was very similar, as you can see here. In fact, the secret police of Russia was the creator and instructor of the Stasi. When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945, it immediately expanded there, and soon it started to train the German Communists to build up their own secret police. By the way, in this hall where we are now, the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946.
首先,我們先簡單地回顧 史塔西的歷史, 因為這很重要,有助於我們了解 它所代表的意義。 史塔西首先發源於俄羅斯。 1917 年,俄羅斯的共產主義者成立了 全俄肅清反革命 及怠工非常委員會, 簡稱為契卡。 由費利克斯·捷爾任斯基領導。 作為共產黨建立暴權的手段, 在人們身上施與恐怖統治, 對敵人處以死刑, 後來演變為眾所皆知的 KGB (蘇聯國家安全委員會)。 契卡是史塔西特工崇拜的委員會, 他們稱呼自己是契卡人, 甚至你可以看到 他們的標織非常相似。 事實上,這些俄羅斯秘密警察 就是主導創立史塔西的關鍵。 1945 年,當蘇聯紅軍佔領東德時 紅軍勢力立即擴展到那裡, 很快地對德國共產黨展開訓練 建立他們專屬的秘密警察。 順道一提,我們現在所在的這棟大廳, 前東德執政黨成立於 1946 年。
Five years later, the Stasi was established, and step by step, the dirty job of oppression was handed over to it. For instance, the central jail for political prisoners, which was established by the Russians, was taken over by the Stasi and used until the end of Communism. You see it here. At the beginning, every important step took place under the attendance of the Russians. But the Germans are known to be very effective, so the Stasi grew very quickly, and already in 1953, it had more employees than the Gestapo had, the secret police of Nazi Germany. The number doubled in each decade. In 1989, more than 90,000 employees worked for the Stasi. This meant that one employee was responsible for 180 inhabitants, which was really unique in the world.
五年後正式成立史塔西, 漸漸地,這種卑鄙壓迫的工作 已轉交給史塔西。 舉一個例子, 政治犯的中央監獄, 是由俄羅斯成立, 由史塔西接管和利用 直到共產主義末期。 你看這裡。 最初,每個重要的步驟 都在蘇聯的參與下進行。 但是德國人非常有效率, 因此史塔西成長得非常快速, 早在 1953 年,比蓋世太保 更多的職員, 即納粹德國密秘警察。 每十年人數增加一倍。 1989 年,超過九萬名職員 為史塔西工作。 意指一名職員 負責 180 位居民, 在這世界上非常獨特。
At the top of this tremendous apparatus, there was one man, Erich Mielke. He ruled the Ministry of State Security for more than 30 years. He was a scrupulous functionary — in his past, he killed two policemen not far away from here — who in fact personalized the Stasi.
在這個巨大機制的頂端, 有一個男人名叫埃里希·梅爾克。 他掌控了國家安全局 超過 30 年的時間。 他是一位一絲不苟,小心謹慎的黨員, 他過去曾殺過兩名警察, 就在距離這裡不遠的地方, 也是他把史塔西擬人化。
But what was so exceptional about the Stasi? Foremost, it was its enormous power, because it united different functions in one organization. First of all, the Stasi was an intelligence service. It used all the imaginable instruments for getting information secretly, such as informers, or tapping phones, as you can see it on the picture here. And it was not only active in East Germany, but all over the world. Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police. It could stop people on the street and arrest them in its own prisons. Thirdly, the Stasi worked as a kind of public prosecutor. It had the right to open preliminary investigations and to interrogate people officially. Last but not least, the Stasi had its own armed forces. More than 11,000 soldiers were serving in its so-called Guards Regiment. It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings. Due to this concentration of power, the Stasi was called a state in the state.
但是史塔西特殊的地方在哪裡? 首先,是它本身巨大的權力, 因為它以一個組織 結合不同的功能。 第一, 史塔西是個情報機構。 它利用所有可想像的工具 秘密地收集資訊, 例如告密者,或竊聽電話者, 你可以在這張照片上看到。 這不止活躍於東德, 而是全世界。 第二,史塔西是種秘密警察。 它可以阻止在街上的人民 將他們逮捕到自建的監獄。 第三,史塔西的工作 是扮演一種檢察官角色。 它有權利展開初步調查 並正式質問人民。 最後一點, 史塔西有自己的軍事力量。 超過一萬一千名軍人 服務著這個所謂的警察團, 旨在打擊示威遊行和暴動。 由於權力集中, 史塔西稱為國家中的國家。
But let's look in more and more detail at the tools of the Stasi. Please keep in mind that at that time the web and smartphones were not yet invented. Of course, the Stasi used all kinds of technical instruments to survey people. Telephones were wiretapped, including the phone of the German chancellor in the West, and often also the apartments. Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened by these machines. The Stasi also shadowed tens of thousands of people using specially trained agents and secret cameras to document every step one took. In this picture, you can see me as a young man just in front of this building where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent. The Stasi even collected the smell of people. It stored samples of it in closed jars which were found after the peaceful revolution. For all these tasks, highly specialized departments were responsible. The one which was tapping phone calls was completely separated from the one which controlled the letters, for good reasons, because if one agent quit the Stasi, his knowledge was very small. Contrast that with Snowden, for example. But the vertical specialization was also important to prevent all kinds of empathy with the object of observation. The agent who shadowed me didn't know who I was or why I was surveyed. In fact, I smuggled forbidden books from West to East Germany.
但是讓我們來看看更多 史塔西運用工具的細節。 請記得在那個年代 網路和智慧型手機都還未出現。 當然,史塔西利用 各種電子工具調查人們。 電話遭裝設竊聽器, 包括西德總理的電話, 經常都是公寓遭到竊聽。 每天有九萬封信 被這些機器拆開。 史塔西還跟蹤窺伺成千上萬的人, 利用受過特訓的間諜和秘密相機 以記錄人們所做的每一步。 這張照片裡,你可以看到 當時年輕的我就站在這座建築前面, 我們現在所處的位置 是史塔西特務拍攝我的地方。 史塔西甚至搜集人體氣味。 密封罐收藏了人體氣味的樣本, 在和平革命後被找到。 這些所有形式的任務, 由高度專業化的部門負責。 竊聽電話 和掌控書信 由完全不一樣的特務負責, 原因很明顯, 因為如果有位特務退出史塔西, 他所知道的知識就非常狹小。 舉個例子,跟史諾登事件的情況相反。 但是垂直化的專業分工合作 對防止各種觀察對象的同理移情 也很重要。 監視我的特務 並不知道我是誰 或為什麼我被調查。 事實上,我走私禁書 從西方國家到前東德。
But what was even more typical for the Stasi was the use of human intelligence, people who reported secretly to the Stasi. For the Minister of State Security, these so-called unofficial employees were the most important tools. From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people collaborated constantly with the Stasi, more than one percent of the population. And in a way, the minister was right, because technical instruments can only register what people are doing, but agents and spies can also report what people are planning to do and what they are thinking. Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants. The system of how to get them and how to educate them, as it was called, was very sophisticated. The Stasi had its own university, not far away from here, where the methods were explored and taught to the officers. This guideline gave a detailed description of every step you have to take if you want to convince human beings to betray their fellow citizens. Sometimes it's said that informants were pressured to becoming one, but that's mostly not true, because a forced informant is a bad informant. Only someone who wants to give you the information you need is an effective whistleblower. The main reasons why people cooperated with the Stasi were political conviction and material benefits. The officers also tried to create a personal bond between themselves and the informant, and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows that it's not so difficult to win someone in order to betray others. Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany collaborated with the Stasi, as for instance Ibrahim Böhme. In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution and he nearly became the first freely elected Prime Minister of the GDR until it came out that he was an informant.
但是更典型的史塔西 是利用人類的聰明才智, 人們可以秘密通報史塔西。 對於國家安全局, 這些所謂非正式職員 是最重要的工具。 從 1975 年開始,近二十萬人民 一直不斷地和史塔西合作, 超過人口的 1%。 也可以這麼說,部長是對的, 因為科技儀器 只能記載人們做了什麼事情, 但是特務和間謀可以回報 人們在計劃什麼事情 及他們在想什麼。 因此,史塔西招募很多線民。 招募他們 和「教育」他們的系統, 他們是這樣宣稱的, 非常複雜精細。 史塔西有自己的大學, 離這裡不遠, 探討方法 和教導職員。 這本指南提供了詳細的 所有你必須執行的步驟說明, 要如何說服別人 背叛他們的同胞。 有時可以說線民 被迫成為一個背叛的人, 但大多時候都不是真的, 因為一個受強迫的線民 是一個差勁的線民。 只有在某個人願意提供你需要的資料時 才是一個有效率的告密者。 人們和史塔西合作的主要理由 是政治信念和物質利益。 特務也試圖創立一個個人牢固的連結 在他們自己與線民之間, 老實說,史塔西的例子顯示 為了背叛他人 要贏得一個人信任並沒有這麼難。 即使是前東德一些上層的反對者 也和史塔西合作, 例如,伊布拉西·博梅。 1989 年,他是和平主義的領導人 他幾乎成為第一個 自由票選出來的前東德總理 直到後來被揭露出 他曾經是一位線民。
The net of spies was really broad. In nearly every institution, even in the churches or in West Germany, there were many of them. I remember telling a leading Stasi officer, "If you had sent an informant to me, I would surely have recognized him." His answer was, "We didn't send anyone. We took those who were around you." And in fact, two of my best friends reported about me to the Stasi. Not only in my case, informers were very close. For example, Vera Lengsfeld, another leading dissident, in her case it was her husband who spied on her. A famous writer was betrayed by his brother. This reminds me of the novel "1984" by George Orwell, where the only apparently trustable person was an informer.
間諜網脈真的很廣泛。 幾乎存在於每個機構, 即便是教堂或西德, 那裡有很多的線民。 我記得跟史塔西特務的領導人說, 「如果你把線民叫來給我看, 我一定可以認出他來。」 他的回答是, 「我們沒有派任何線民。 我們選了你周圍的人當線民。」 事實是,二個我最好的朋友 向史塔西舉發我。 不只是我的例子, 告密者的關係很緊密。 例如,倫斯斐德, 另一個反對者領袖, 她的案例是,監視她的是她丈夫。 一個有名的作家遭到他的兄弟背叛。 這提醒我喬治·歐威爾 寫的小說《一九八四》, 顯然只有可信的人 是一位告密者。
But why did the Stasi collect all this information in its archives? The main purpose was to control the society. In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister gave the order to find out who is who, which meant who thinks what. He didn't want to wait until somebody tried to act against the regime. He wanted to know in advance what people were thinking and planning. The East Germans knew, of course, that they were surrounded by informers, in a totalitarian regime that created mistrust and a state of widespread fear, the most important tools to oppress people in any dictatorship.
但是為什麼史塔西要收集這些資料 到它的檔案庫裡? 主要目的是控制社會。 幾乎每場演講,史塔西總理 下了指令找出誰是誰, 也就是要知道誰在想什麼。 他不想等到有人 試圖對抗政權。 他想事先知道 人們在想什麼和計劃什麼。 當然前東德知道, 他們有線民圍繞, 集權主義創造了猜疑 和一個國家普遍的恐懼, 是任何專治獨裁中 欺壓人民最重要的工具。
That's why not many East Germans tried to fight against the Communist regime. If yes, the Stasi often used a method which was really diabolic. It was called Zersetzung, and it's described in another guideline. The word is difficult to translate because it means originally "biodegradation." But actually, it's a quite accurate description. The goal was to destroy secretly the self-confidence of people, for example by damaging their reputation, by organizing failures in their work, and by destroying their personal relationships. Considering this, East Germany was a very modern dictatorship. The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident. It preferred to paralyze them, and it could do so because it had access to so much personal information and to so many institutions. Detaining someone was used only as a last resort. For this, the Stasi owned 17 remand prisons, one in every district. Here, the Stasi also developed quite modern methods of detention. Normally, the interrogation officer didn't torture the prisoner. Instead, he used a sophisticated system of psychological pressure in which strict isolation was central. Nearly no prisoner resisted without giving a testimony. If you have the occasion, do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin and attend a guided tour with a former political prisoner who will explain to you how this worked.
這就是為什麼沒有很多前東德人試圖 對抗共產主義政權。 如果是這樣,史塔西經常利用 一個真的很殘暴方法。 叫作分崩離析。 另一本指南上有描述。 用文字很難詮釋因為 它原本的意思是「生物分解」。 但其實,這是非常準確的描述。 目標是秘密摧毀 自信的人民, 例如破壞他們的名譽, 在他們的工作中製造失敗, 摧毀他們個人的友誼。 仔細想想,前東德 是非常的現代化專治獨裁。 史塔西沒有企圖逮捕每個反對者。 比較傾向讓他們氣餒, 這是可行的,因為 它獲得了大量的個人資料 及大量的團體機構。 拘捕某人只用在 最後的一個手段。 為此,史塔西擁有 19 座監獄, 每個州至少一個。 這裡,史塔西也發展 相當現代化的拘捕方法。 一般來說,審問員 沒有折磨囚犯。 相反的,他利用精細複雜的 心理壓力系統 這點是嚴密隔離的重要核心。 幾乎沒有囚犯拒絕 不願意提供證詞。 如果你有這種偶然的境遇, 去參觀柏林的前秘密警察監獄 參加有導遊與前政治犯帶領的導覽, 他們會告訴你這個系統如何運作。
One more question needs to be answered: If the Stasi were so well organized, why did the Communist regime collapse? First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany was uncertain what to do against the growing protest of people. It was especially confused because in the mother country of socialism, the Soviet Union, a more liberal policy took place. In addition, the regime was dependent on the loans from the West. Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising was given to the Stasi. Secondly, in the Communist ideology, there's no place for criticism. Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief that socialism is a perfect system, and the Stasi had to confirm that, of course. The consequence was that despite all the information, the regime couldn't analyze its real problems, and therefore it couldn't solve them. In the end, the Stasi died because of the structures that it was charged with protecting.
還一個問題需要回答: 如果史塔西組織運作得這麼好, 為什麼共產政權會垮台? 第一點,1989 年,前東德的領導 不確定該怎麼做 來抵擋逐漸增加的反抗人群。 這點令人特別困擾, 因為在社會主義的祖國 蘇聯, 更自由的政策產生了。 此外,政權依賴 來自西方的貸款。 所以,史塔西沒有給出 要求鎮壓暴動的指令 第二,共產主義的思想, 不能有批評的空間。 相反的,領導層堅信 社會主義是個完美的系統, 當然史塔西已經證實。 結果是 僅管所有的資訊, 政權無法分析本身真正的問題, 所以沒有辦法解決問題。 最後史塔西滅亡, 是因為 它所保護的結構瓦解。
The ending of the Stasi was something tragic, because these officers were kept busy during the peaceful revolution with only one thing: to destroy the documents they had produced during decades. Fortunately, they had been stopped by human rights activists. That's why today we can use the files to get a better understanding of how a surveillance state functions.
史塔西的結束 是某種悲劇, 因為這些特務 在和平的革命期間一直都 只忙著一件事: 銷毀所有文件 數十年間所製作的文件。 幸好, 人權主義者阻止了他們。 這就是為什麼我們可以利用這些檔案 更清楚了解 受監視的國家如何運轉。
Thank you.
謝謝
(Applause)
(鼓掌)
Bruno Giussani: Thank you. Thank you very much. So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions because I have here Der Spiegel from last week. "Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA. And you just told us about my neighbor, the spies and the informant from East Germany. So there is a direct link between these two stories or there isn't? What's your reaction as a historian when you see this?
布魯諾·吉桑尼:非常謝謝你。 胡貝圖斯,我想問你幾個問題 因為我這裡有上週發行的明鏡周刊, 「我家鄰居,國家安全局」。 你剛才分享關於我們鄰居的事情, 來自關於前東德的間諜和線民。 所以這二個故事之間 有沒有直接的連結關係? 當你看到這則故事時, 你的反應是什麼?
Hubertus Knabe: I think there are several aspects to mention. At first, I think there's a difference of why you are collecting this data. Are you doing that for protecting your people against terrorist attacks, or are you doing that for oppressing your people? So that makes a fundamental difference. But on the other hand, also in a democracy, these instruments can be abused, and that is something where we really have to be aware to stop that, and that also the intelligence services are respecting the rules we have. The third point, probably, we really can be happy that we live in a democracy, because you can be sure that Russia and China are doing the same, but nobody speaks about that because nobody could do that.
胡貝圖斯.克納貝:我認為 需要註明一下幾個觀點 首先,我認為有一個差異點是 我們為什麼要搜集這些資料。 我們做那件事情 是為了保護我們的人民 對抗恐怖主義? 或我們做那件事情 是為了欺壓我們的人民? 所以這是一個基本的差異。 但在另一方面, 在一個民主國家中, 這些工具也可能被濫用, 這正是我們真的必須 仔細留意的地方, 這也是情報服務 遵守我們定下的規則。 第三個觀點,也許, 我們真的可以快樂地 住在一個民主國家, 因為你可以確定蘇聯和中國 在做一樣的事情, 卻沒人談論這個話題 因為沒人敢碰觸它。
(Applause)
(掌聲)
BG: When the story came out first, last July, last year, you filed a criminal complaint with a German tribunal. Why? HK: Yeah, I did so because of the second point I mentioned, that I think especially in a democracy, the rules are for everybody. They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed that any institution doesn't respect the rules. In the criminal code of Germany, it's written that it's not allowed to tap somebody without the permission of the judge. Fortunately, it's written in the criminal code of Germany, so if it's not respected, then I think an investigation is necessary, and it took a very long time that the public prosecutor of Germany started this, and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel, and not in the case of all the other people living in Germany.
布魯諾:當故事首度刊登在這份雜誌, 去年七月, 你提出一份 與德國法庭的刑事訴訟,為什麼? 胡貝圖斯:是的,我這麼做 是因為我談到的第二個觀點, 我認為特別是在民主國家, 規則是每個人共有的。 規則是為每個人制訂的,所以不允許 任何機構不遵守規則。 德國刑法記載 沒有經過法官的允許 不可以竊聽別人談話。 幸運的是,這條規定有編入德國刑法, 所以如果有人不遵守這條規定, 那麼我認為調查是必要的, 這花了很長的一段時間 使德國檢察官開始進行調查, 他開始著手調查只因為 安格拉·梅克爾的事件, 不是住在德國的全體人民。
BG: That doesn't surprise me because — (Applause) — because of the story you told. Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany, and I expected the Germans to react much more strongly, immediately. And instead, the reaction really came only when Chancellor Merkel was revealed as being wiretapped. Why so?
布魯諾:我不驚訝,因為... (鼓掌) 你先前所說的已經解釋一切。 從外國,德國之外的視角來看, 我以為德國人的反應 會更加強烈,更加及時。 但相反地,只有在梅克爾總理 被監聽事件曝光之後, 民眾才真正開始反應。為什麼?
HK: I take it as a good sign, because people feel secure in this democracy. They aren't afraid that they will be arrested, and if you leave this hall after the conference, nobody has to be afraid that the secret police is standing out and is arresting you. So that's a good sign, I think. People are not really scared, as they could be. But of course, I think, the institutions are responsible to stop illegal actions in Germany or wherever they happen.
胡貝圖斯:我認為這是一件好事, 因為人們在民主法治下感到很安全。 他們不會擔心被逮捕, 就像在這場談話結束後離開會場, 沒有人需要擔心秘密警察 站在門外準備逮捕你。 所以,我覺得這是好事。 人們並不覺得活在恐懼之中。 當然,我仍然認為法令有責任 去制止非法行為, 不論是在德國或其它地方。
BG: A personal question, and this is the last one. There has been a debate in Germany about granting asylum to Edward Snowden. Would you be in favor or against?
布魯諾:最後我還有一個私人問題。 有件事情仍然十分具有爭議性, 那就是究竟是否要給予 愛德華·史諾登政治庇護? 你的看法怎麼樣?
HK: Oh, that's a difficult question, but if you ask me, and if I answer honestly, I would give him the asylum, because I think it was really brave what he did, and he destroyed his whole life and his family and everything. So I think, for these people, we should do something, and especially if you see the German history, where so many people had to escape and they asked for asylum in other countries and they didn't get it, so it would be a good sign to give him asylum.
胡貝圖斯:嗯,這個問題很難回答。 但如果你問我, 我會誠實地說 我選擇給他政治庇護, 因為我認為他所做的事情非常勇敢, 他已經毀了自己的一生, 還有他的家庭和所有一切。 我認為對於這樣的人, 我們應該做些什麼。 尤其,在德國的歷史中, 你能看到很多人必須逃亡, 尋找其它國家的政治庇護, 卻無法如願以償, 所以我認為該給他政治庇護。
(Applause)
(鼓掌)
BG: Hubertus, thank you very much.
布魯諾:胡貝圖斯,非常謝謝你。