Adrian Kohler: Well, we're here today to talk about the evolution of a puppet horse.
亞德里恩 科勒:我們今天來 是要談論木偶馬的演化
Basil Jones: But actually we're going to start this evolution with a hyena.
貝索 瓊斯:事實上,我們要用鬣狗 來開始說明
AK: The ancestor of the horse. Okay, we'll do something with it. (Laughter) Hahahaha. The hyena is the ancestor of the horse because it was part of a production called "Faustus in Africa," a Handspring Production from 1995, where it had to play draughts with Helen of Troy. This production was directed by South African artist and theater director, William Kentridge. So it needed a very articulate front paw. But, like all puppets, it has other attributes.
亞德里恩 科勒:鬣狗也就是木偶戰馬的祖先 好,那現在我們開始表演 (笑聲) 哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈 這隻鬣狗是木偶馬的先祖 因為他是一個叫做"非洲的浮士德"的 製作的一部分 是漢斯普林公司在1995年的作品 用來當木馬屠城記的戲劇草稿 這部作品是由一個 南非的藝術家和導演指導 威廉肯崔吉 這隻鬣狗需要非常靈敏的前爪 但就像所有木偶一樣,他也有其他的特性
BJ: One of them is breath, and it kind of breathes.
貝索 瓊斯:其中之一就是呼吸 他能呼吸
AK: Haa haa haaa.
亞德里恩 科勒:(呼吸聲)
BJ: Breath is really important for us. It's the kind of original movement for any puppet for us onstage. It's the thing that distinguishes the puppet --
貝索 瓊斯:呼吸對我們而言是很重要的 這是對於對於所有在舞台上的木偶 最基本的動作 這是用來區分木偶 ......
AK: Oops.
亞德里恩 科勒:啊
BJ: From an actor. Puppets always have to try to be alive. It's their kind of ur-story onstage, that desperation to live.
貝索 瓊斯:和演員的一點 木偶總是試圖要活過來 這是他們在舞台上的故事 他們對生命的渴望
AK: Yeah, it's basically a dead object, as you can see, and it only lives because you make it. An actor struggles to die onstage, but a puppet has to struggle to live. And in a way that's a metaphor for life.
亞德里恩 科勒:就像大家看到的,這其實就是一個沒有生命的物體 只有在你使他活過來時 他才會有生命 演員努力在台上演死去 木偶則努力想要活起來 這也是一種生命的隱喻
BJ: So every moment it's on the stage, it's making the struggle. So we call this a piece of emotional engineering that uses up-to-the-minute 17th century technology -- (Laughter) to turn nouns into verbs.
貝索 瓊斯:所以任何時刻只要在台上,木偶都努力活起來 我們就叫他 一個情感工程 使用了最新的 17世紀的技術 (笑聲) 來把名詞 變成動詞
AK: Well actually I prefer to say that it's an object constructed out of wood and cloth with movement built into it to persuade you to believe that it has life.
事實上我比較喜歡說 這是一個物體 由木頭和布所做成 並且有動作植入其中 來說服你相信他有生命
BJ: Okay so.
貝索 瓊斯:好的所以
AK: It has ears that move passively when the head goes.
亞德里恩 科勒:當他的頭轉動的時候 耳朵可以跟著擺動
BJ: And it has these bulkheads made out of plywood, covered with fabric -- curiously similar, in fact, to the plywood canoes that Adrian's father used to make when he was a boy in their workshop.
貝索 瓊斯:而且他有這些隔板 是由膠合板做成的 覆蓋上布料 事實上就和 亞德里恩父親孩童時 在工作室所做的 膠合板獨木舟出奇的相似
AK: In Port Elizabeth, the village outside Port Elizabeth in South Africa.
亞德里恩 科勒:在南非伊麗沙伯港,港外的小村莊
BJ: His mother was a puppeteer. And when we met at art school and fell in love in 1971, I hated puppets. I really thought they were so beneath me. I wanted to become an avant-garde artist -- and Punch and Judy was certainly not where I wanted to go. And, in fact, it took about 10 years
貝索 瓊斯:他的母親是個木偶表演者 當1971年 我們在藝術學校相遇 並且相愛時 我非常討厭木偶 我真的覺得他們對我而言太低等了 我想成為一個前衛的藝術家 龐奇與茱蒂(英國傳統木偶劇)絕不是我想做的 事實上,我大概10年之後
to discover the Bambara Bamana puppets of Mali in West Africa, where there's a fabulous tradition of puppetry, to learn a renewed, or a new, respect for this art form.
才發現 西非國家馬利的特有布偶 那裡有驚人的木偶製作傳統 讓我學到了更新的,或者全新的 對於這種藝術形式的尊敬
AK: So in 1981, I persuaded Basil and some friends of mine to form a puppet company. And 20 years later, miraculously, we collaborated with a company from Mali, the Sogolon Marionette Troupe of Bamako, where we made a piece about a tall giraffe. It was just called "Tall Horse," which was a life-sized giraffe.
亞德里恩 科勒:所以在1981年,我說服貝索和我的一些朋友 成立了一個木偶公司 20年後,出乎意料地 我們和馬利的一間公司合作 巴馬科的索格隆木馬團 我們做了一個很高的長頸鹿木偶 他被稱做"高馬",大小就和真的長頸鹿一樣
BJ: And here again, you see the same structure. The bulkheads have now turned into hoops of cane, but it's ultimately the same structure. It's got two people inside it on stilts, which give them the height, and somebody in the front who's using a kind of steering wheel to move that head.
貝索 瓊斯:在這裡,你又可以看到同樣的結構 只是隔板改用藤圈做成 但終究是一樣的結構 他需要兩個踩著高蹺的人在裡面 高蹺給他們所需要的高度 還有另一個人在前面 用類似方向盤的東西來移動頭部
AK: The person in the hind legs is also controlling the tail, a bit like the hyena -- same mechanism, just a bit bigger. And he's controlling the ear movement.
亞德里恩 科勒:一個人在後腿 同時控制尾巴,這有點像鬣狗 同樣的機械結構,只是比較大 另外他還控制耳朵的移動
BJ: So this production was seen by Tom Morris of the National Theatre in London. And just around that time, his mother had said, "Have you seen this book by Michael Morpurgo called 'War Horse'?"
貝索 瓊斯:這個製作 被倫敦國家劇團的 湯姆莫里斯看到了 而且差不多在那時候 他的母親說 你有沒有看過一本麥克莫波格寫的書 叫做"戰馬"?
AK: It's about a boy who falls in love with a horse. The horse is sold to the First World War, and he joins up to find his horse.
亞德里恩 科勒:這是關於一個男孩愛上一匹馬的故事 這批馬被賣去參加第一次世界大戰 男孩為了找到這批馬就參加了戰爭
BJ: So Tom gave us a call and said, "Do you think you could make us a horse for a show to happen at the National Theatre?"
貝索 瓊斯:所以湯姆就打了通電話給我們說 "你們覺得你們能不能為我們做出一匹馬 在國家劇院表演?"
AK: It seemed a lovely idea.
亞德里恩 科勒:這似乎是個極好的主意
BJ: But it had to ride. It had to have a rider.
貝索 瓊斯:但是這匹馬要可以騎,他需要扛起一個騎士
AK: It had to have a rider, and it had to participate in cavalry charges. (Laughter) A play about early 20th century plowing technology and cavalry charges was a little bit of a challenge for the accounting department at the National Theatre in London. But they agreed to go along with it for a while. So we began with a test.
亞德里恩 科勒:他需要一個騎士 他還得加入騎兵隊的進攻 (笑聲) 對於倫敦的國家劇院來說 一個關於二十世紀早期的耕地技術 和騎兵隊進攻的戲,這樣的費用 是有點超支了 但是他們同意先做一陣子再說 所以我們就開始測試
BJ: This is Adrian and Thys Stander, who went on to actually design the cane system for the horse, and our next-door neighbor Katherine, riding on a ladder. The weight is really difficult when it's up above your head.
貝索 瓊斯:這是亞德里恩和希斯斯丹德 他們是戰馬藤圈系統的設計者 我們的鄰居凱瑟琳 在梯子上 這樣的重量在懸在頭頂的時候其實是很重的
AK: And once we put Katherine through that particular brand of hell, we knew that we might be able to make a horse, which could be ridden. So we made a model. This is a cardboard model, a little bit smaller than the hyena. You'll notice that the legs are plywood legs and the canoe structure is still there.
亞德里恩 科勒:一旦我們讓凱瑟琳 經歷了這個特別的煉獄 我們就知道我們應該可以製作一匹馬,一匹可以騎的馬 所以我們做了一個模型 這是個厚紙板模型 這比鬣狗小了一點 你們會注意到這些腿是膠合板做的 也使用了獨木舟的結構
BJ: And the two manipulators are inside. But we didn't realize at the time that we actually needed a third manipulator, because we couldn't manipulate the neck from inside and walk the horse at the same time.
貝索 瓊斯:兩個操縱者在裡面 但是當時我們沒有意識到 事實上我們需要第三個操縱者 因為我們沒辦法從裡面 控制脖子 同時又讓馬行走
AK: We started work on the prototype after the model was approved, and the prototype took a bit longer than we anticipated. We had to throw out the plywood legs and make new cane ones. And we had a crate built for it. It had to be shipped to London. We were going to test-drive it on the street outside of our house in Cape Town, and it got to midnight and we hadn't done that yet.
亞德里恩 科勒:在設計模型通過之後 我們開始製作雛形 製造這個雛形花的時間 比我們預期的要長 我們必須丟棄膠合板的腿,用藤條製作新的 而且我們還要為他製作一個大箱子 這匹馬需要被運到倫敦 我們原本要在開普敦的街上試跑 但一直忙到半夜所以我們一直都沒這麼做
BJ: So we got a camera, and we posed the puppet in various galloping stances. And we sent it off to the National Theatre, hoping that they believed that we created something that worked. (Laughter)
貝索 瓊斯:所以我們拿照相機 把木馬擺出 各種奔跑的姿勢 然後把照片 寄到國家劇院 希望他們相信 我們製作出的這個東西是可以用的 (笑聲)
AK: A month later, we were there in London with this big box and a studio full of people about to work with us.
亞德里恩 科勒:一個月之後,我們帶著這個大箱子到達倫敦 見到一整個將要和我們合作的工作室的人員
BJ: About 40 people.
大概有四十個人
AK: We were terrified. We opened the lid, we took the horse out, and it did work; it walked and it was able to be ridden. Here I have an 18-second clip of the very first walk of the prototype. This is in the National Theatre studio, the place where they cook new ideas. It had by no means got the green light yet. The choreographer, Toby Sedgwick, invented a beautiful sequence where the baby horse, which was made out of sticks and bits of twigs, grew up into the big horse. And Nick Starr, the director of the National Theatre, saw that particular moment, he was standing next to me -- he nearly wet himself. And so the show was given the green light. And we went back to Cape Town and redesigned the horse completely. Here is the plan.
亞德里恩 科勒:我們很害怕 我們打開蓋子,把馬拿出來 他真的能動,他能走也能騎 這裡我有一個十八秒的影像 是這個雛形真正第一次行走 這是在國家劇院的劇場 是他們想出新題材的地方 當時我們還沒有通過 編舞者,陶比席德維克 設計了一套優美的動作 這個小馬 整個由樹枝和細棍做成的 長大變成了壯馬 國家劇院的導演尼克史塔爾 看到了這個特別的片段,他站在我旁邊,他差點要尿濕褲子了 就這樣這個表演就通過了 然後我們回到開普敦,重新設計了整匹馬 這就是我們的計畫
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
And here is our factory in Cape Town where we make horses. You can see quite a lot of skeletons in the background there. The horses are completely handmade. There is very little 20th century technology in them. We used a bit of laser cutting on the plywood and some of the aluminum pieces. But because they have to be light and flexible, and each one of them is different, they can't be mass-produced, unfortunately. So here are some half-finished horses ready to be worked in London. And now we would like to introduce you to Joey. Joey boy, you there? Joey. (Applause) (Applause) Joey. Joey, come here. No, no, I haven't got it. He's got it; it's in his pocket.
這是我們在開普敦的工廠 我們製作馬的地方 你可以看到在背景裡有很多的骨架 這些馬都是手工製作的 很少有用到二十世紀的科技 我們用一點鐳射技術切割膠合板 和一些鋁片 但是因為這些馬必須要很輕、很靈活 而且每一匹都要不一樣 所以很不幸,他們不能被批量生產 所以這裡有一些半成品的馬 需要在倫敦繼續加工 現在我們要向大家介紹 喬依 小喬依,你在哪裡? 喬依 (掌聲) (掌聲) 喬依 喬依,來這裡 不,不,我這裡沒有(食物) 他口袋裡有
BJ: Joey. AK: Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey. Come here. Stand here where people can see you. Move around. Come on. I'd just like to describe -- I won't talk too loud. He might get irritated. Here, Craig is working the head. He has bicycle brake cables going down to the head control in his hand. Each one of them operates either an ear, separately, or the head, up and down. But he also controls the head directly by using his hand. The ears are obviously a very important emotional indicator of the horse. When they point right back, the horse is fearful or angry, depending upon what's going on in front of him, around him. Or, when he's more relaxed, the head comes down and the ears listen, either side. Horses' hearing is very important. It's almost more important than their eyesight. Over here, Tommy's got what you call the heart position. He's working the leg. You see the string tendon from the hyena, the hyena's front leg, automatically pulls the hoop up. (Laughter) Horses are so unpredictable. (Laughter) The way a hoof comes up with a horse immediately gives you the feeling that it's a convincing horse action. The hind legs have got the same action.
貝索 瓊斯:喬依 亞德里恩 科勒:喬依,喬依,喬依,喬依 來這裡,站在這裡大家才看得到你 動一動,來吧 我想和大家說明一下 我不會說太大聲,不然他可能會被激怒 這裡,克雷格在控制他的頭 他用的是腳踏車的剎車線 每條都連接到他手裡握著的頭部控制中心 每一條 分別控制一邊耳朵 或是頭部的上下移動 他也用他的手直接 控制馬的頭 顯然地,耳朵 是表現馬兒情緒很重要的方式 當耳朵向後指 馬是害怕或者生氣的 取決於馬前面或周圍發生什麼事 或者當馬放鬆的時候,他的頭就會垂下來 耳朵會聽,指向兩邊 馬的聽覺是非常重要的 幾乎比他們的視力還要重要 看這裡 湯姆掌握了所謂的心臟部位 他負責操控馬腿 看這裡的弦腱 像在鬣狗的前腿裡一樣 自動把環拉起來 (笑聲) 馬是不可預測的 (笑聲) 馬抬蹄的方式 馬上就讓你覺得 這是真的馬的動作 後腳也有一樣的動作
BJ: And Mikey also has, in his fingers, the ability to move the tail from left to right, and up and down with the other hand. And together, there's quite a complex possibility of tail expression.
貝索 瓊斯:另外麥奇還有 在他的手指裡 控制馬尾巴的能力 從左到右 另外一手控制上下 這些合在一起,就是非常複雜的各種 尾巴“表情”的組合
AK: You want to say something about the breathing?
亞德里恩 科勒:你想要說說關於呼吸的部分嗎
BJ: We had a big challenge with breathing. Adrian thought that he was going to have to split the chest of the puppet in two and make it breathe like that -- because that's how a horse would breathe, with an expanded chest. But we realized that, if that were to be happening, you wouldn't, as an audience, see the breath. So he made a channel in here, and the chest moves up and down in that channel. So it's anti-naturalistic really, the up and down movement, but it feels like breath. And it's very, very simple because all that happens is that the puppeteer breathes with his knees.
貝索 瓊斯:呼吸方面我們遇到了很大的挑戰 亞德里恩認為 他必須要把木偶的胸切成兩半 來這樣呼吸 因為這是真的馬呼吸的樣子,胸部擴張 但是我們發現 如果這樣做 身為一個觀眾,你們是看不到他呼吸的 所以他在這裡做了一個通道 胸腔就會在這個通道裡上下動 這個上下移動的動作是違反自然的 但感覺上很像呼吸 而且這非常非常的簡單 因為要馬呼吸 只需要操控的人膝蓋的運動
AK: Other emotional stuff. If I were to touch the horse here on his skin, the heart puppeteer can shake the body from inside and get the skin to quiver. You'll notice, of course, that the puppet is made out of cane lines. And I would like you to believe that it was an aesthetic choice, that I was making a three-dimensional drawing of a horse that somehow moves in space. But of course, it was the cane is light, the cane is flexible, the cane is durable and the cane is moldable. And so it was a very practical reason why it was made of cane.
亞德里恩 科勒:另一個有關馬的情緒的事情。 如果我從這裡摸馬 的皮膚 在核心操控木馬的人可以從裡面搖動馬的身體 讓皮膚顫動 當然,你會發現 這個木偶是由藤條做成的 而且我希望你們能相信這是個審美上的選擇 就是這是一個我畫的馬的三維立體圖 這個圖不知怎的就在空間裡動起來的 當然,這裡用的藤蔓很輕 藤蔓有彈性、很耐用 可塑性也很強 用藤蔓製作還有一個很實際的考慮
The skin itself is made out of a see-through nylon mesh, which, if the lighting designer wants the horse to almost disappear, she can light the background and the horse becomes ghostlike. You see the skeletal structure of it. Or if you light it from above, it becomes more solid. Again, that was a practical consideration. The guys inside the horse have to be able to see out. They have to be able to act along with their fellow actors in the production. And it's very much an in-the-moment activity that they're engaged in. It's three heads making one character.
就是皮膚本身 是用透明的尼龍網製成的 如果燈光師 想讓馬幾乎消失在舞台上 他可以打亮背景 讓馬變成幽靈一般 你可以看見馬的骨骼結構 或者如果你從下面打燈,他會變得更厚實 這又是一個很實際的考量 馬裡面的人必須要可以看到外面 他們必須能夠反應 和表演中其他演員演出對手戲 他們所從事的這項活動是非常注重及時性的 三個人來呈現這一個角色
But now we would like you to put Joey through some paces. And plant.
現在我要你們讓喬依動起來 然後停住
(Whinny)
(馬嘶聲)
Thank you. And now just -- (Applause) All the way from sunny California we have Zem Joaquin who's going to ride the horse for us.
謝謝 現在 (掌聲) 從美國加州遠道而來的 森姆 喬安坤 將要為我們騎乘這匹馬
(Applause)
(掌聲)
(Applause)
(掌聲)
(Music)
(音樂)
So we would like to stress that the performance you see in the horse is three guys who have studied horse behavior incredibly thoroughly.
我們想強調的是 你們看到在馬裡面表演的 是三個人 他們都徹底仔細研究過馬的行為
BJ: Not being able to talk to one another while they're onstage because they're mic'd. The sound that that very large chest makes, of the horse -- the whinnying and the nickering and everything -- that starts usually with one performer, carries on with a second person and ends with a third.
貝索 瓊斯:他們在台上時 是不能互相交談的 因為他們都配戴著麥克風 馬的胸腔發出的聲音 輕聲嘶鳴或大聲嘶吼等等的 通常都是由一個表演者發出的 然後第二個人才接上去 第三個人結束
AK: Mikey Brett from Leicestershire. (Applause) Mikey Brett, Craig, Leo, Zem Joaquin and Basil and me.
亞德里恩 科勒:麥奇 布瑞特,來自英國列斯特郡 (掌聲) 麥奇 布瑞特、克雷格、里奧 森姆 喬安坤、貝索和我
(Applause)
(掌聲)
Thank you. Thank you.
謝謝,謝謝
(Applause)
(掌聲)