Adrian Kohler: Well, we're here today to talk about the evolution of a puppet horse.
艾德里安 科勒:我们今天来 是想讲讲木偶战马的进化
Basil Jones: But actually we're going to start this evolution with a hyena.
贝索 琼斯:事实上我们想以木偶鬣狗 来开篇
AK: The ancestor of the horse. Okay, we'll do something with it. (Laughter) Hahahaha. The hyena is the ancestor of the horse because it was part of a production called "Faustus in Africa," a Handspring Production from 1995, where it had to play draughts with Helen of Troy. This production was directed by South African artist and theater director, William Kentridge. So it needed a very articulate front paw. But, like all puppets, it has other attributes.
艾德里安 科勒:也就是木偶战马的先祖 现在我们要表演了 (笑声) 哈哈 这个木偶鬣狗是木偶战马的先祖 因为它是整个制作的一部分 叫做“非洲的浮士德” 是我们回春手公司1995年的作品 用来在海伦特洛伊一剧中拖载重物 这个作品是由一个 南非的艺术家和剧场导演来指导的 威廉 肯持觉 所以这个鬣狗需要有非常灵敏的前爪 但是就像所有的木偶一样,它也有其他的特性
BJ: One of them is breath, and it kind of breathes.
贝索 琼斯:其中之一就是呼吸 它能呼吸
AK: Haa haa haaa.
艾德里安 科勒:(呼吸声)
BJ: Breath is really important for us. It's the kind of original movement for any puppet for us onstage. It's the thing that distinguishes the puppet --
贝索 琼斯:呼吸对我们是很重要的 在舞台上对木偶来说 这是一个非常基本的动作 这是区分木偶-
AK: Oops.
艾德里安 科勒:不好!
BJ: From an actor. Puppets always have to try to be alive. It's their kind of ur-story onstage, that desperation to live.
贝索 琼斯:和演员的基本原则 木偶总是试图活过来的 这是它们台上的挣扎 它们对生命的渴望
AK: Yeah, it's basically a dead object, as you can see, and it only lives because you make it. An actor struggles to die onstage, but a puppet has to struggle to live. And in a way that's a metaphor for life.
艾德里安 科勒:这是个没有生命的物体,像大家看到的 它只有在你使它活过来的时候 才有生命 演员试图在台上演死去 木偶在台上试图活过来 这也是一种生命的隐喻
BJ: So every moment it's on the stage, it's making the struggle. So we call this a piece of emotional engineering that uses up-to-the-minute 17th century technology -- (Laughter) to turn nouns into verbs.
贝索 琼斯:所以每时每刻在舞台上,它都会试着试图活下去。 我们管它叫做 一个情感工程 它使用最新的 十七世纪的技术- (笑声) 来把名词 变成动词
AK: Well actually I prefer to say that it's an object constructed out of wood and cloth with movement built into it to persuade you to believe that it has life.
艾德里安 科勒:其实我想说 这是个物体 由木头和布做的 当我们融入动作 就能诱使你相信它是有生命的
BJ: Okay so.
贝索 琼斯:好的
AK: It has ears that move passively when the head goes.
艾德里安 科勒:当它的头转的时候 耳朵能跟着移动
BJ: And it has these bulkheads made out of plywood, covered with fabric -- curiously similar, in fact, to the plywood canoes that Adrian's father used to make when he was a boy in their workshop.
贝索 琼斯:它有这些隔板 都是压合板作的 覆上布料- 事实上和艾德里安的父亲 还是个孩童时 在工作间里做的 压板独木舟出奇地相似
AK: In Port Elizabeth, the village outside Port Elizabeth in South Africa.
艾德里安 科勒:在伊丽莎白港,港外的小村庄里
BJ: His mother was a puppeteer. And when we met at art school and fell in love in 1971, I hated puppets. I really thought they were so beneath me. I wanted to become an avant-garde artist -- and Punch and Judy was certainly not where I wanted to go. And, in fact, it took about 10 years
贝索 琼斯:他的妈妈是一个木偶剧演员 我们在1971年 在艺术学院相识 相爱 我当时讨厌木偶 总觉得它们很低贱 我想成为特别前卫的艺术家- 《庞奇和朱迪》可我绝对不想做的 事实上,我花了十年
to discover the Bambara Bamana puppets of Mali in West Africa, where there's a fabulous tradition of puppetry, to learn a renewed, or a new, respect for this art form.
来发掘 非洲西部的马里的特有木偶 那里有令人惊叹的木偶制作传统 从而领会到了更新的,或者说是全新的 对于木偶艺术的崇敬
AK: So in 1981, I persuaded Basil and some friends of mine to form a puppet company. And 20 years later, miraculously, we collaborated with a company from Mali, the Sogolon Marionette Troupe of Bamako, where we made a piece about a tall giraffe. It was just called "Tall Horse," which was a life-sized giraffe.
艾德里安 科勒:在1981年,我劝服贝索和我的一些朋友 成立了一个木偶公司 二十年后,出乎意料地 我们和马里的公司合作 巴马口的艺术团 制作出了一个长颈鹿木偶 名字叫做“高马”的,是一个真长颈鹿大小的木偶
BJ: And here again, you see the same structure. The bulkheads have now turned into hoops of cane, but it's ultimately the same structure. It's got two people inside it on stilts, which give them the height, and somebody in the front who's using a kind of steering wheel to move that head.
贝索 琼斯:这里,你可以看到同样的结构 但换做用藤蔓做主框架, 但是差不多是一样的结构 它需要在里面藏两个人,踩着高跷 把他们拔高 一个人在前面 用方向盘来移动头部
AK: The person in the hind legs is also controlling the tail, a bit like the hyena -- same mechanism, just a bit bigger. And he's controlling the ear movement.
艾德里安 科勒:一个人在后腿这里 同时掌控尾巴,就像是鬣狗一样- 同样的工艺`,只是更大些 他还能掌握耳朵的动作
BJ: So this production was seen by Tom Morris of the National Theatre in London. And just around that time, his mother had said, "Have you seen this book by Michael Morpurgo called 'War Horse'?"
贝索 琼斯:这个制作 被在伦敦的国家剧团 的汤姆 摩瑞斯看到了 差不多也是这个时候 他的母亲说: “你有没有看过麦克 莫普构的书 叫做“战马”的?”
AK: It's about a boy who falls in love with a horse. The horse is sold to the First World War, and he joins up to find his horse.
艾德里安 科勒:这是个关于一个男孩爱上一匹马的故事 这匹马被卖到去参加一次世界大战 这个男孩就参了军去找到了他的马
BJ: So Tom gave us a call and said, "Do you think you could make us a horse for a show to happen at the National Theatre?"
贝索 琼斯:这样汤姆就给我们打了个电话说 “你觉得你能不能给我们作匹马 在国家剧院演戏用?”
AK: It seemed a lovely idea.
艾德里安 科勒:这主意听起来妙极了
BJ: But it had to ride. It had to have a rider.
贝索 琼斯:但是这马得能骑,它得有个骑士
AK: It had to have a rider, and it had to participate in cavalry charges. (Laughter) A play about early 20th century plowing technology and cavalry charges was a little bit of a challenge for the accounting department at the National Theatre in London. But they agreed to go along with it for a while. So we began with a test.
艾德里安 科勒:不错,它得有个骑士 它还得加入骑兵队 (笑声) 对于伦敦的国家剧院来说 一个二十世纪初的耕技术 和骑兵团的费用 是有点超支了 但是他们同意看看发展再说 所以们就开始试验了
BJ: This is Adrian and Thys Stander, who went on to actually design the cane system for the horse, and our next-door neighbor Katherine, riding on a ladder. The weight is really difficult when it's up above your head.
贝索 琼斯:这是艾德里安和塞斯 斯丹德 他们是马的藤圈系统的设计者 我们的邻居卡瑟琳 在梯子上的 这样的重量在悬在头顶的时候是非常吃重的
AK: And once we put Katherine through that particular brand of hell, we knew that we might be able to make a horse, which could be ridden. So we made a model. This is a cardboard model, a little bit smaller than the hyena. You'll notice that the legs are plywood legs and the canoe structure is still there.
艾德里安 科勒:一旦我们逼着卡瑟琳 经历了这个特别的“炼狱” 我们就意识到我们可能能够作出一个能被骑的马来 所以我们做了个模型 是个纸板模型 比鬣狗稍小一点 你能看到这些腿都是压合板的 也使用了独木舟式的结构
BJ: And the two manipulators are inside. But we didn't realize at the time that we actually needed a third manipulator, because we couldn't manipulate the neck from inside and walk the horse at the same time.
贝索 琼斯:两个操纵者在里面 当时我们没有意识到 我们其实需要第三个操纵者 因为我们不能从里面 控制脖子的运动 同时也让马行走
AK: We started work on the prototype after the model was approved, and the prototype took a bit longer than we anticipated. We had to throw out the plywood legs and make new cane ones. And we had a crate built for it. It had to be shipped to London. We were going to test-drive it on the street outside of our house in Cape Town, and it got to midnight and we hadn't done that yet.
艾德里安 科勒:在设计模型通过后, 我们开始作雏形 制作雏形很费了些时间 比我们想象中长 我们必须放弃原来的压合板马腿,改用藤制的 我们还得给雏形做个大箱子 它得被运往伦敦 我们原本想在我们克珀城外的道路上试跑 但是一直忙到半夜我们也没顾得上试跑一回
BJ: So we got a camera, and we posed the puppet in various galloping stances. And we sent it off to the National Theatre, hoping that they believed that we created something that worked. (Laughter)
贝索 琼斯:我们拿了照像机 把木偶马摆出 奔腾的立像(大照特照) 然后把照片都 寄到国家剧院 希望他们能一见之下 就相信我们真的是造出了能动的东西 (笑声)
AK: A month later, we were there in London with this big box and a studio full of people about to work with us.
艾德里安 科勒:一个月后,我们在伦敦 带着这个大盒子,和一整个剧院的人等着和我们合作呢
BJ: About 40 people.
贝索 琼斯:总共四十个人
AK: We were terrified. We opened the lid, we took the horse out, and it did work; it walked and it was able to be ridden. Here I have an 18-second clip of the very first walk of the prototype. This is in the National Theatre studio, the place where they cook new ideas. It had by no means got the green light yet. The choreographer, Toby Sedgwick, invented a beautiful sequence where the baby horse, which was made out of sticks and bits of twigs, grew up into the big horse. And Nick Starr, the director of the National Theatre, saw that particular moment, he was standing next to me -- he nearly wet himself. And so the show was given the green light. And we went back to Cape Town and redesigned the horse completely. Here is the plan.
艾德里安 科勒:我们可害怕了 我们打开盖子,把马拿出来 它居然真的能动,能走能骑 这里我有一个十八秒钟的录像 是这个雏形第一次走路的录像 这是国家剧院的剧场 人们酝酿新题材的地方 当时我们还没有过关呢 舞蹈指导托比 萨剧维克 设计了一系列优美的动作 这个小马 整个由木签和细棍做成 慢慢长大变成壮年的马 尼克 斯达,国家剧院的导演 看到了这个片段-他当时站在我身边-他差点尿了裤子 就这样这个表演就通过了 我们回到克珀城,重新设计了整匹马。 现在说说我们的计划
(Laughter)
(笑声)
And here is our factory in Cape Town where we make horses. You can see quite a lot of skeletons in the background there. The horses are completely handmade. There is very little 20th century technology in them. We used a bit of laser cutting on the plywood and some of the aluminum pieces. But because they have to be light and flexible, and each one of them is different, they can't be mass-produced, unfortunately. So here are some half-finished horses ready to be worked in London. And now we would like to introduce you to Joey. Joey boy, you there? Joey. (Applause) (Applause) Joey. Joey, come here. No, no, I haven't got it. He's got it; it's in his pocket.
这是克珀城我们的工厂 我们在那里造马 你可以看到背景中很多骨架 这些马都是手工制作的 二十世纪的科技含量很少 我们用激光切割压合板 和一些铝片 因为这些马必须要很轻,可塑性强 每匹马都不完全一样 很不幸,它们不能被批量生产出来 这里是一些半成品 正在伦敦加工 现在我们想为大家介绍 乔伊 乔伊,你在哪里? 乔伊 (掌声) (掌声) 乔伊 乔伊,到这里来 我这里没有(吃的) 他口袋里有
BJ: Joey. AK: Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey. Come here. Stand here where people can see you. Move around. Come on. I'd just like to describe -- I won't talk too loud. He might get irritated. Here, Craig is working the head. He has bicycle brake cables going down to the head control in his hand. Each one of them operates either an ear, separately, or the head, up and down. But he also controls the head directly by using his hand. The ears are obviously a very important emotional indicator of the horse. When they point right back, the horse is fearful or angry, depending upon what's going on in front of him, around him. Or, when he's more relaxed, the head comes down and the ears listen, either side. Horses' hearing is very important. It's almost more important than their eyesight. Over here, Tommy's got what you call the heart position. He's working the leg. You see the string tendon from the hyena, the hyena's front leg, automatically pulls the hoop up. (Laughter) Horses are so unpredictable. (Laughter) The way a hoof comes up with a horse immediately gives you the feeling that it's a convincing horse action. The hind legs have got the same action.
贝索 琼斯:乔伊 艾德里安 科勒:乔伊乔伊乔伊乔伊 来这里,站在这里,大家都能看见你 转一圈,来吧 我想和大家描述一下- 我会轻轻地讲,要不乔伊该发脾气了 这里, 克莱格在控制马的头 他用的是自行车的闸线 每条都汇集到他手里的头部的控制中心 每条线 分别管一个耳朵 或者是头部上下动 他也用他的手直接 控制整个头部 耳朵显然是 对展示了马的表情非常重要的 当耳朵向后指 说明马不是害怕就是愤怒 取决于马的面前,或者周围有什么 或者当马放松的时候,头会垂下来 耳朵会听,指向两边 马的听觉十分常重要的 几乎比它们的视觉更重要 大家看这里 汤姆掌握了所谓的心脏部位 他驱使马的腿 请看这里的弦腱 像在鬣狗的前腿里一样 自动把环拉起来 (笑声) 马是很不好预测的 (笑声) 马扬前蹄 马上就给你一种 真的马的动作的感觉 后腿也有相似的动作
BJ: And Mikey also has, in his fingers, the ability to move the tail from left to right, and up and down with the other hand. And together, there's quite a complex possibility of tail expression.
贝索 琼斯:迈克还有 在他的手指里 控制马尾巴的能力 能让尾巴左右摆 另一只手能控制尾巴上下动 合在一起,带给尾巴的表情 很复杂的组合
AK: You want to say something about the breathing?
艾德里安 科勒:你想说说关于呼吸的部分么?
BJ: We had a big challenge with breathing. Adrian thought that he was going to have to split the chest of the puppet in two and make it breathe like that -- because that's how a horse would breathe, with an expanded chest. But we realized that, if that were to be happening, you wouldn't, as an audience, see the breath. So he made a channel in here, and the chest moves up and down in that channel. So it's anti-naturalistic really, the up and down movement, but it feels like breath. And it's very, very simple because all that happens is that the puppeteer breathes with his knees.
贝索 琼斯:我们在呼吸的模拟上撞了南墙 艾德里安以为 他必须要把木偶的胸部剖成两半 才能做出呼吸- 因为这是真的马呼吸的样子,胸部扩张 但是我们发现 如果这样做 作为观众的你们是看不到的 所以他在这里做了个通道 这样胸腔就在通道里上下动 这个和自然的动作是相悖的,上下动 但是看起来更像呼吸 所以就非常简单就解决了 只需要表演者 的膝盖运动,马就呼吸了
AK: Other emotional stuff. If I were to touch the horse here on his skin, the heart puppeteer can shake the body from inside and get the skin to quiver. You'll notice, of course, that the puppet is made out of cane lines. And I would like you to believe that it was an aesthetic choice, that I was making a three-dimensional drawing of a horse that somehow moves in space. But of course, it was the cane is light, the cane is flexible, the cane is durable and the cane is moldable. And so it was a very practical reason why it was made of cane.
艾德里安 科勒:另一个表情 如果我在马这里按下去 在它的皮肤上 核心的表演者能够从身体里面摇动 使整个皮肤抖动 你能看到,当然了 这个木偶是用藤线作的 我希望你理解这是个审美的选择 我在画这个马的三维立体图的时候选择的 为了能让它在空中腾跃 当然了,这里用的藤线很轻 也很有弹性,很经用 藤线的可塑性也很强 选用藤线还有一个很实际的原因
The skin itself is made out of a see-through nylon mesh, which, if the lighting designer wants the horse to almost disappear, she can light the background and the horse becomes ghostlike. You see the skeletal structure of it. Or if you light it from above, it becomes more solid. Again, that was a practical consideration. The guys inside the horse have to be able to see out. They have to be able to act along with their fellow actors in the production. And it's very much an in-the-moment activity that they're engaged in. It's three heads making one character.
就是这块皮肤自己 是用透明的尼龙网作的 如果灯光师 想让这个马在舞坛上消失 她可以在背景打灯 马就好像是幽灵一样 你只能看见马的骨骼 如果你从下面打灯,它就变得更实际一些 所以说这是个实际考虑 马里面的表演者必须能够看得见外面 他们需要及时作出反应 和表演中的其他的演员演对手 每时每刻他们都要能够跟得上 这三个臭皮匠顶个诸葛亮啊
But now we would like you to put Joey through some paces. And plant.
现在我想让你们让乔伊跑起来 现在站住
(Whinny)
(马嘶声)
Thank you. And now just -- (Applause) All the way from sunny California we have Zem Joaquin who's going to ride the horse for us.
谢谢你们 现在- (掌声) 从加州的阳光海岸远道而来的 泽姆 乔安坤 将要为我们表演骑马
(Applause)
(掌声)
(Applause)
(掌声)
(Music)
(音乐)
So we would like to stress that the performance you see in the horse is three guys who have studied horse behavior incredibly thoroughly.
我们想强调的是 你现在看到的骑马表演 是三个人的协作 每个人都仔细研究了马的行为
BJ: Not being able to talk to one another while they're onstage because they're mic'd. The sound that that very large chest makes, of the horse -- the whinnying and the nickering and everything -- that starts usually with one performer, carries on with a second person and ends with a third.
贝索 琼斯他们在台上时 是不能够互相交谈的 因为他们都有麦克风 这里的音效,马的嘶鸣- 轻声嘶鸣和大声嘶吼等等- 都是由一个表演者发起的 然后第二个人接上去 第三个人结束
AK: Mikey Brett from Leicestershire. (Applause) Mikey Brett, Craig, Leo, Zem Joaquin and Basil and me.
艾德里安 科勒:迈克 伯瑞特,来自莱斯特 (掌声) 迈克 伯瑞特,克莱格,里奥, 泽姆 乔安坤, 贝索和我自己
(Applause)
(掌声)
Thank you. Thank you.
谢谢,谢谢大家
(Applause)
(掌声)