Bryn Freedman: So you keep talking about leadership as a real crisis of conformity. Can you explain to us what you mean by that? What do you see as a crisis of conformity? Halla Tómasdóttir: I think it's a crisis of conformity when we continue to do business and lead in the way we always have, yet the evidence is overwhelming that the world needs us to change our ways. So let's look a little bit at that evidence. Science has told us that we're facing a climate crisis, yet 40 percent of board directors don't think climate belongs in the boardroom. And we have kids marching in the streets now, asking us to be accountable for their future. We have a crisis of inequality. We have Yellow Jackets not just in the streets of France, but all over the world, and yet we continue to see examples of businesses and other leaders fueling that anger.
布林·弗里德曼:你在談論領導時, 總是把它說成是真正的遵從危機。 您可以跟大家說明一下 是甚麼意思嗎? 你認為甚麼算是遵從危機? 海拉·湯馬斯多特:遵從危機就是 持續依循固有的方式 來做事業和領導別人。 但已經有非常強大的證據指出 世界需要我們改變做法。 我們來看一些證據。 科學告訴我們, 我們正在面臨氣候危機, 但有四成董事 不認為氣候是董事會 會議中要談的事。 現在有孩子走上街頭, 要求我們為他們的未來負責。 我們有不平等危機, 黃背心不只出現在法國街頭, 全世界各地都有, 但我們仍然繼續看到 企業和其他領導人 不斷在怒火上加油。
BF: Do you think the pitchforks are coming?
布:你認為接下來會有人揭竿起義?
HT: I definitely think this is not sustainable. And the reason why it's so difficult for us to deal with these complicated crises that are interrelated is that we are at the lowest levels of trust we've ever been at. In the UK, three percent of people trust their government to solve the Brexit crisis, and that was in December. I think it's probably gone down since then.
海:我認為這絕不是個永續的作法。 處理這些互相關聯的 複雜危機會如此困難, 是因為我們正處於信任的最低點。 在英國,只有 3% 的人相信 他們的政府會解決脫歐危機, 那還只是 12 月份的數字。 我認為在那之後,這個數字 很可能更走下坡了。
BF: What do you think new leadership actually looks like?
布:你認為新的領導階層 應該是什麼樣子的?
HT: We need courageous leaders, yet they have to be humble. And they have to be guided by a moral compass, and the moral compass is the combination of having a social purpose -- you can't have your license to operate anymore without a purpose that contributes to society, but what, to me, has been missing from that dialogue is a set of principles. We cannot just define why we exist, we have to define how we're going to do business and how we're going to lead. And to us, that has to be to solve these imminent crises: the climate crisis, the crisis of inequality and the crisis of trust. So at The B Team, we embrace sustainability, equality and accountability as our principles.
海:我們需要有勇氣的領導階層, 但他們也要懂得謙遜。 他們必須要有道德標準的指引, 而道德標準就包括 要有貢獻社會的目標—— 如果你沒有貢獻社會的目標, 就不能取得營運的執照, 但對我而言,在意見交流中 所缺乏的是一組原則。 我們不能只是定義 我們為什麼存在, 我們得要定義我們要如何做生意, 以及我們要如何領導。 對我們來說,那就得要 解決這些迫切的危機: 氣候危機、 不平等危機, 以及信任危機。 所以,在「B 型團隊」, 我們很樂於以永續、 平等、負責為原則。
BF: Do you think this whole question of purpose is really window dressing -- they're saying what they think people want to hear, but they're actually not making the fundamental changes that are necessary?
布:你認為這個目標的問題, 是否只是在修飾外表—— 他們只說他們認為人們想聽的話, 但其實沒有從根本上 做必要的改變?
HT: A lot of people feel that way, and I think there's a growing momentum behind that. So I think the world is calling for responsible leadership now, and any leader who wants to be around for the 21st century really needs to start thinking courageously and holistically how they're going to be part of the solution and not window-dress anymore. You have to do it for real now.
海:很多人都有這種感覺, 我認為那背後有著 越來越壯大的動力。 所以,我認為現在世界 正需要負責任的領導人, 任何想在 21 世紀繼續領導的人, 就真的必須開始做 勇敢、整體的思考, 思考他們要如何成為 解決方案的一部分, 而不再只是修飾外表。 現在你得要玩真的了。
BF: Do you see anybody out there who's doing it in a way that you think is actually effective and has a real, long-term impact?
布:目前外面有沒有哪個人正在 用你認為有效的方式在做這件事? 並且具有切實、長期的影響?
HT: Fortunately, we have some great leaders out there. And just to give one example, Emmanuel Faber, who's one of the newest members of The B Team, he's the CEO of Danone, the world's largest yogurt-maker and major food company -- a real global company. He's so committed to sustainability that he's not only changing the ways of his own business, but his entire supply chain. He's so committed to equality that when he took on as CEO and he said gender balance matters, he created a gender-balanced executive team and gave men and women equal maternity and paternity leave. He's so committed to accountability that he turned his US operations into a B Corporation. Now many of you may not know what that is, but that's a company that holds itself responsible for not just profit but its impact on people and the planet, and transparently reports on their performance on all of that. It's the largest B Corp in the world. So to me, that's holistic, courageous leadership, and it's really the vision we all need to hold.
海:很幸運地,我們的確 有些傑出的領導人。 舉個例子, 伊曼紐爾·法伯,他是 B 型團隊最新的成員之一, 他是達能的執行長, 達能是全世界最大的優格製造商 及主要的食物公司—— 一家真正的全球企業。 他致力於永續發展, 不僅改變了他自己企業內的做法, 還改變了整個供應鏈。 他對平等非常投入, 當他接下執行長時, 他說性別平衡很重要, 他創建了一個性別 平衡的領導團隊, 並且提供男性和女性平等的產假。 他也致力於承擔責任, 所以他將美國的事業 轉型成為了 B 型企業。 許多人可能不知道 B 型企業是什麼, 那是一種共益企業, 它不僅謀求利益, 還要為該企業對人 和地球造成影響負責, 並且提供透明公開的報告來 說明他們在這些方面的表現。 達能是世界上最大的 B 型企業。 所以我認為那是整體、 勇敢的領導方式, 也是我們都需要有的願景。
BF: Is this "Back to the Future"? I mean, I wonder, when I think about companies -- Anheuser-Busch comes to mind in America -- a 100-year-old company that invested in its community, that gave a living wage before it ended up, you know, losing and getting sold. Are we really looking now for companies that are global and community citizens, or is that something that is not even useful anymore?
布:這是《回到未來》嗎? 我是指,當我想到那些公司—— 在美國我想到的是安海斯-布希 —— 這間有百年歷史的公司 貢獻它的社區, 付出能維持一定生活水平的工資, 但最後落得賠錢,然後賣掉了。 現在我們在找的是兼顧 全球化和地方性的公司, 難道這種做法現在已經不管用了?
HT: Well, you can do this for the reason that it's risky, actually, to continue without doing the right thing now. You can't attract the right talent, you can't attract customers and increasingly, you won't be able to attract capital. You might do it for risk reasons, you might do it for business opportunity reasons, because this is where the growth is, which is why many leaders are doing the right thing. But at the end of the day, we need to ask ourselves: "Who are we holding ourselves accountable for?" And if that isn't the next generation, I don't know who.
海:其實你可以因為風險太高 而不做這些共益的事情。 但你就吸引不到合適的人才, 吸引不到顧客, 你也愈來愈吸引不到資金。 你可能因為風險, 你可能為了商機而朝共益發展, 因為成長就在這裡, 這就是為什麼許多 領導人都在做這件事。 但到頭來, 我們得要捫心自問: 「我們要為誰負責?」 如果答案不是下一代, 我就不知道是誰了。
So I want to just make very clear, because we tend to think about leadership as only those who sit in positions of power. To me, leadership is not at all like that.
所以,我想要說清楚, 因為我們會認為領導人 指的只有那些坐擁權力的人。 我心中的領導人完全不是那樣的。
There's a leader inside every single one of us, and our most important work in life is to release that leader. And I think one of the greatest global examples we have of someone who didn't -- no one gave her power -- is the 16-year-old girl called Greta Thunberg. She's from Sweden, and a few years ago, she really became -- she has Asperger's, and she became passionate about our climate crisis -- learned everything about it. And faced with the evidence, she just felt so disappointed in her leadership that she started striking in front of the Swedish parliament. And now she has started a global movement, and hundreds and thousands of school kids are out in the streets asking us to hold ourselves accountable for their future. No one gave her that authority, and she now speaks to the leaders of the world, heads of state, and really is impacting the world.
我們每個人的內在 都藏著一個領導人, 我們一生中最重要的工作, 是要將那個領導人釋放出來。 全世界有一個偉大的例子, 這個人沒有—— 沒有人給她權力—— 她是個十六歲女孩, 名叫格蕾塔·桑伯格。 她來自瑞典, 幾年前,她變得—— 她有亞斯伯格症候群, 她變得非常熱衷於 我們的氣候危機—— 她學習了所有相關資訊。 面對那些證據, 她對領導階層非常失望, 她便開始在瑞典國會前罷課抗議。 現在她已帶起了一項全球運動, 成千上百的學校學生走上街頭, 要求我們對他們的未來負責。 沒有人給予她那權力, 現在她可以和世界領導人、 國家領袖對話, 真正在影響世界。
So I really think that when we think about leadership today, it can't be defined to those in positions of power though they have disproportionately greater responsibility. But all of us need to think about, "What am I doing?" "How am I contributing?" And we need to release that leader inside and actually start making the positive impact this world is calling for right now.
我真的認為,當我們 想到現今的領導人時, 不能將他們定義為坐擁權力的人, 雖然他們的責任更為巨大。 但我們所有人都需要想想: 「我在做什麼?」 「我正在如何做出貢獻?」 我們必須釋放自己 內在的那個領導人, 開始對世界造成正面的影響, 造成世界正需要的影響。
BF: But we have such hierarchical leadership. I mean, I understand what you're saying -- it's nice to release the leader inside -- but in these corporations, the truth is, it's extremely hierarchical. What can companies do to create less vertical and more horizontal relationships?
布:但我們的領導型態是階層式的。 我是說,我瞭解你的意思—— 能把內在的領導人 釋放出來是很好—— 但事實上這些企業的組織架構 都是極度垂直化的階層。 公司能做什麼, 來減少垂直階層, 創造更扁平的組織結構?
HT: Well, I'm a big believer and I've long been passionate about closing the gender gap, and I really believe gender-balanced leadership is the way to go in order to embrace a leadership style that has been shown to be more powerful, and that's when both men and women embrace both masculine and feminine values. It actually is proven in research that that's the most effective leadership style. But I'm increasingly now thinking about how we close the generational gap, because look at these young children in the streets around the world -- they're asking us to lead. Kofi Annan used to say, "You're never too young to lead." And then he would add, "Or too old to learn." And I think we have now entered this era where we need the wisdom of those with experience, but we need the digital natives of the young generation to co-mentor or to mentor us just as much as we can help with wisdom from the older people. So it's a new reality, and these old, sort of hierarchical ways to think about things, they're increasingly coming under pressure in this reality.
海:我非常相信這一套, 我長久以來對消彌性別落差 都帶有很大的熱忱。 我堅信性別平衡的領導 是正確的方法, 這是一種公認更強大的領導模式, 那就是當男性和女性都能全心接受 男性化和女性化都有價值時。 已經有研究證明, 那是最有效的領導模式。 我現在越來越常思考 我們要如何處理世代落差, 因為看著全世界街頭的 這些年輕孩子—— 他們在要求我們領導。 科菲·安南曾說過: 「領導永遠不嫌年輕。」 他會再加上這句: 「學習永遠不嫌老。」 我認我們已經跨入了一個世代, 在此世代中,我們 既需要經驗人士的智慧, 也需要年輕的數位原生世代的技能, 來互相指導,或指導我們, 就像我們能用前人的經驗 幫助他們一樣。 這是一種新的現實, 那些老舊、階級式的思考方式 會變得越來越禁不起 這種現實的考驗。
BF: And you've actually called that the hubris syndrome. Can you talk about that?
布:你曾說過那就是所謂的 「自大症候群」。 能多談談嗎?
HT: Well, yes, I think hubris is our cancer in leadership. That's when leaders think they know it all, can do it all, have all the answers and don't think they need to surround themselves with people who will make them better, which to me would, in some cases, be more women and younger people and people who are diverse and have different opinions in general. Hubris syndrome is so present in leadership still, and we know many examples of them, I don't need to name them. And the problem with that --
海:當然,我認為自大 是領導人的毒瘤。 就是領導人認為自己知道一切, 能處理所有事, 知道所有問題的答案, 認為他們身邊不需要 能夠學習的對象來讓他們改進。 這些學習的對象可能 更會是女性、年輕人, 以及更多元化、 有更多不同想法的人。 自大症候群在領導人中還很普遍, 這樣的例子不勝枚舉。 我不需要說出是誰,問題在於——
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
Yeah, we know them -- all over the world, not just in this country.
是的,我們都知道是誰—— 全世界都有, 不只這個國家有。
But that kind of leadership doesn't unleash leaders in others. No one person, or no one sector even has the solutions we now need to come up with -- the creativity and collaboration we need. The bold and the brave leadership we need to come up with solutions that cross government, private sector, civil society, young people, older people, people of all different backgrounds coming together is the way to solve the issues that are in front of us.
但這種領導人無法釋放 別人內在的領導人。 沒有任何單一的個人, 也沒有任何單一業界 有我們需要的解決方案—— 我們所需要的創造力和合作精神。 我們需要的大膽和有勇氣的領導力, 是由各個政府、業界、民營組織, 不論是年輕人或年長者, 各種不同背景的人共同提出解決方案, 才能夠解決我們眼前所面臨的問題。
BF: Do you see that kind of leadership coming from the bottom-up or the top-down, or do you think a crisis is going to force us into a reexamination of all of this?
布:您認為那是來自從下而上的領導, 或是從上而下的領導? 還是會有危機出現,迫使 我們重新檢視這一切?
HT: Well, as someone who lived through the most infamous financial meltdown in my home country, Iceland, I hope we don't need another one to learn or to wake up. But I do see that we can't choose one or the other. We do have to transform the way we lead -- from the top, the boardroom, the CEOs -- we really do have to transform that, but increasingly, we will transform that, because we have these social movements coming from the bottom and throughout society. And the solutions exist. The only thing that's missing is will.
海:我經歷過我的祖國冰島 聲名狼藉的金融危機, 我不希望再經歷另一個危機 才學到教訓,才覺醒。 但我確知不能在 由下而上或由上而下 兩種領導方式中擇一。 現有的領導方式必須 經過一番轉型—— 由最高階層、董事會、 執行長領導的方式, 我們有必要改變正種方式, 我們也會逐漸做到, 因為我們有來自底層和整個社會 所發起的社會運動。 而且一定會有解決方案, 唯一缺少的意志力。
So if we just all find a way to embrace a moral compass of our own to figure out why we exist and how we're going to lead, and if we embrace courage and humility in equal amounts, each one of us can be part of this 10-year period where we can dramatically transform the world we live in, and make it just, and make it about humanity and not just the financial markets.
如果我們都能夠找到一種方法 來全心遵循自己的道德標準, 想清楚我們為什麼存在, 我們該如何領導, 如果我們也能全心付出 同等的勇氣和謙遜, 那麼我們每個人都能在十年間 促成我們所居住世界的重大轉型, 讓這個世界變得公正, 更重視人道的考量, 而不只是以金融市場為前提。
BF: Well, we have a lot of people here who I bet have questions for you, and we have a few minutes for questions, so is there anybody that would like to ask Halla a question?
布:我猜在座有很多人 都有問題想問您, 我們還有幾分鐘的時間來回答問題。 有人想問海拉問題的嗎?
Audience: Hello, my name is Cheryl. I'm an aspiring leader, and I have a question about how you lead when you have no influence. If I'm just an analyst, and I want to speak to senior management about a change that I feel will affect the whole company, how do I go about changing their minds when they feel as if they've had relationships that are set, that their way of business is set? How do you change minds when you have no influence?
觀眾:您好,我叫雪蘿。 成為領導者是我的抱負, 我想問,在沒有影響力時, 你要如何領導? 如果我只是一名分析師, 我想和管理高層對話, 討論我認為對公司 有整體影響的改革, 我該如何改變他們的想法? 尤其是當他們覺得組織的 人際架構已經是固定的, 他們的業務模式也是固定的。 這種情況下,你如何在沒有 影響力時改變人們的想法?
HT: Well, thank you very much for that fantastic question. So sometimes people at the top won't listen, but it's interesting that with the low trust we have in society right now, the greatest trust we have is actually between the employee and the employer, according to recent research. So I think that relationship may be the most powerful way to actually transform the way we do things. So I would start by trying to build a coalition for your good idea. And I don't know a single leader today who will not listen to a concern that many of their employees hold.
海:非常感謝你提出 這麼精彩的問題。 有時候最高層的人不會聽別人的, 但有趣的是,最近有研究顯示, 儘管現在社會中的信任度很低, 員工和雇主間的信任感 反而是最強的。 所以我認為這樣的關係 是促成舊有的行事方式出現 實質轉型最強大的力量。 我會試著建立一個支持 你想法的聯盟,作為開端。 而且現在的領導人當中, 對於多數員工共同關心的問題, 不會充耳不聞的。
I'll give you an example from another B Team leader, Marc Benioff, the CEO of Salesforce. He's really been outspoken on homelessness in San Francisco, on LGBTQI rights, and all of the things that he's been standing up for, he does because his employees care about them. So don't ever think you don't have power if you don't sit in a position of power. Find the way to go convince him ... or her.
我用另一個 B 型企業 領導人來舉例, 馬克·本尼奧夫, Salesforce 的執行長。 他對舊金山無家可歸的問題、 同性、雙性、變性等 少數性別族群權利的問題, 以及其他所有他關心的議題, 都直言無諱地發表強烈的意見。 他這樣做是因為 他的員工關心這些問題。 所以不要因為不在權力的位子上, 就覺得自己沒有力量, 你要找方法去說服他/她。
And Marc, for example, was convinced to close the gender pay gap by two women who worked inside of his organization, who told him, "We have a gender pay gap." He didn't believe it; he said, "Bring me the data." They did, and he was smart enough to know he needed to do something about it, and was one the first tech leaders to step up and do so voluntarily. So don't ever think that you don't have power, even if you don't sit in a position of power, but find other people to support you and make the case.
舉其中一個例子, 在馬克組織中的兩位女性員工 說服他消除兩性薪資差距, 她們告訴馬克:「公司裡有 男女同工不同酬的情況。」 他不相信,並說:「給我看數據。」 她們照做了,馬克有足夠的睿智, 知道他必須解決這個問題。 他是第一批主動解決 這個問題的科技公司領導人。 所以儘管你不是在權力的位子上, 絕對不要認為你沒有力量, 你要找其他人來支持你, 讓你的議題受到重視。
BF: Thank you. Anybody else? Any other questions?
布:謝謝。 還有其他問題嗎?
Audience: Hi, I'm overwhelmed by fascination with everything you're saying, so thank you. I just wanted to ask how, like, diversity in opinion and thought and also background has impacted your leadership ability. And what do you think is the barricade that is limiting the overflow of diversity in all business settings, and what do you think can impact the change in that setting but also to disrupt the overflow of generations of people staying in place? And what do you think is the next step to breaking several glass ceilings?
觀眾:我覺得您剛所說的一切 都太棒了,謝謝您。 我只是想問,意見、 想法、背景的多元性, 如何影響您的領導能力? 還有,您認為在所有商業環境中 是甚麼阻擋多元性的擴大? 以及,在那樣的環境中,有甚麼 會影響您所說的領導模式的改變? 而當今環境充斥著一代代都還待在 原地的人,有甚麼能阻斷這個趨勢? 還有,您認為要打破各種階級間的 無形障礙,下一步該怎麼做?
BF: We're going to do an entire Salon just on that question.
布:我們可能需要另開一個集會 來專門討論這些問題。
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
HT: I think Bryn said it well, but let me try and touch on it. So the way I see gender, it is a spectrum -- you know, men also have gender. We sometimes forget about that.
海:布林說得很對,我來試著回答。 我是怎麼看待性別的呢? 我認為性別像是光譜—— 別忘了男性也是有性別的, 我們有時會忘了這點。
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
We sometimes forget about that. And I actually played a very masculine woman early in my career, because those were the rules of the game. And I achieved some success with it, but fortunately, I got to a place where I started embracing my feminine side as well. But I would still say that the best leaders embrace both, both women and men. But I see gender, also, as one of the most powerful levers to shift values in culture. So the reason I'm so passionate about women in leadership and believe that balance is needed is because right now, our definition of success is incredibly masculine. It's about financial profit alone or economic growth alone, and we all know that we need more than money. I mean, we need wellness: well-being of people, and there is no future beyond the well-being of our planet. So I think gender may very well be one of the most powerful levers to help all of us shift our economic and social systems to be more welcoming.
我們有時會忘了這點。 我在職涯早期,其實扮演著一個 非常男性化的女性角色, 因為那是當時的遊戲規則。 我透過那種方式獲得些許成功。 很幸運地,我達到了一個位置, 讓我開始全心接受自己 女性化的一面。 但我還是要說,那些最傑出的領導人 能同時接受女性化和男性化這兩面。 但我也認為, 性別是轉變文化價值觀 最有利的槓桿。 我之所以對女性領導人的 話題充滿熱忱, 並且相信領導階層需要男女平衡, 是因為我們現在對成功的 定義還是過於男性化, 成功還只是利潤或經濟成長。 我們都知道,我們需要的不只是錢。 我是說,我們需要健康: 人們都安康幸福。 如果我們的世界不安樂, 我們就沒有未來。 所以我認為性別很可能是 最有利的槓桿, 來幫助我們所有人將經濟 和社會系統變得更具包容力。
And the answer to your last part -- it's so complicated, but let me try to give you a short one. I believe that the way talent and consumption is shifting is going to increasingly get companies to look at adding difference into their leadership, because sameness is not working --
關於你問題的最後一部分—— 這個問題很複雜, 讓我試著用簡短的方式來回答。 我相信人才和消費模式的轉變, 會讓企業愈來愈想要在領導階層中 增加一些多元性的差異, 因為單一化已經不合用了——
BF: And difference is a superpower.
布:差異是一種超能力。
HT: Difference is a superpower.
海:沒錯,差異是一種超能力。
BF: Thank you very much. Halla, thank you so much, I wish we could talk to you all day.
布:非常謝謝大家。 海拉,非常感謝您, 我真希望我們有一整天繼續聊。
(Applause and cheers)
(掌聲及歡呼聲)
HT: Thank you.
海:謝謝。
(Applause)
(掌聲)