Chris Anderson: Thank you so much, Prime Minister, that was both fascinating and quite inspiring. So, you're calling for a global ethic. Would you describe that as global citizenship? Is that an idea that you believe in, and how would you define that?
克里斯・安德森:非常感谢,首相阁下 十分精彩而振奋的演讲 您倡导全球伦理 您会称之为 世界公民吗? 您同意这个说法吗? 您会怎么定义?
Gordon Brown: It is about global citizenship and recognizing our responsibilities to others. There is so much to do over the next few years that is obvious to so many of us to build a better world. And there is so much shared sense of what we need to do, that it is vital that we all come together. But we don't necessarily have the means to do so.
戈登・布朗:我想这是世界公民的意思 我们要认识到对别人的责任 在今后的几年里我们要做的还有很多 我们很多人显然都很清楚我们需要建设一个更好的世界 对于要做什么我们持有很多共识 合作是至关重要的 但我们还无法做到这一点
So there are challenges to be met. I believe the concept of global citizenship will simply grow out of people talking to each other across continents. But of course the task is to create the institutions that make that global society work. But I don't think we should underestimate the extent to which massive changes in technology make possible the linking up of people across the world.
所以我们面临挑战 我认为,世界公民的概念 会随着人们跨洲际的交流而自然生发 所以任务就是要 建立一个机构 保证世界社会的运营 我们不应当低估 技术的巨大发展 将为世界人民的联结
CA: But people get excited about this idea of global citizenship,
提供可能性
but then they get confused a bit again when they start thinking about patriotism, and how to combine these two. I mean, you're elected as Prime Minister with a brief to bat for Britain. How do you reconcile the two things?
CA:人们听到世界公民 就会兴奋起来 不过当他们思及爱国主义 以及如何结合二者时 难免又有点困惑 您是首相 身负英国人民的厚望 您是如何平衡二者的呢?
GB: Well, of course national identity remains important. But it's not at the expense of people accepting their global responsibilities. And I think one of the problems of recession is that people become more protectionist, they look in on themselves, they try to protect their own nation, perhaps at the expense of other nations. When you actually look at the motor of the world economy, it cannot move forward unless there is trade between the different countries. And any nation that would become protectionist over the next few years would deprive itself of the chance of getting the benefits of growth in the world economy.
GB:国民身份 固然重要 但这与承认世界公民责任 并不相悖 经济衰退带来的问题之一 是人们更倾向保护主义 他们只看着自己 要看好自己的家门 也许代价就是别国的利益 但是当你看看世界经济的引擎时 没有国家间贸易 这个引擎无法转动 如果某国在未来几年里死守保护主义 只会脱离全球经济的利益链条 作茧自缚
So, you've got to have a healthy sense of patriotism; that's absolutely important. But you've got to realize that this world has changed fundamentally, and the problems we have cannot be solved by one nation and one nation alone.
所以爱国主义也得是健全的 这很重要 但是我们必须意识到,这个世界有了翻天覆地的变化 我们面临的问题不是
CA: Well, indeed. But what do you do when the two come into conflict and you're forced to make a decision that either is in Britain's interest, or the interest of Britons, or citizens elsewhere in the world?
单单一个国家能解决的 CA:的确。但是二者冲突时 您会怎么做 您必须二择一的话 就是,一边是英国的利益 或者说英国人的利益 另一边是别的地方的人们的利益?
GB: Well I think we can persuade people that what is necessary for Britain's long-term interests, what is necessary for America's long-term interests, is proper engagement with the rest of the world, and taking the action that is necessary.
GB:我认为,我们能说服人们 英国人的长期利益是什么 美国人的长期利益是什么 我们的利益和世界各国人们的利益 是可以统一并且需要共同努力的
There is a great story, again, told about Richard Nixon. 1958, Ghana becomes independent, so it is just over 50 years ago. Richard Nixon goes to represent the United States government at the celebrations for independence in Ghana. And it's one of his first outings as Vice President to an African country. He doesn't quite know what to do, so he starts going around the crowd and starts talking to people and he says to people in this rather unique way, "How does it feel to be free?" And he's going around, "How does it feel to be free?" "How does it feel to be free?" And then someone says, "How should I know? I come from Alabama."
只要想想-关于理查德・尼克松 有个极好的故事 1958年,加纳独立 不过是五十年前的事 理查德・尼克松代表 美国政府 前往加纳出席 独立庆典 那是他作为副总统 第一次出访非洲国家 他有点不知所措 他就穿梭在人群里 四处交谈 他的问话很独特 “自由的感觉如何?” 他就到处问:“自由的感觉怎么样?” “自由的感觉怎么样?” 然后有个人说 “我怎么知道?我来自阿拉巴马州。”
(Laughter)
(笑声)
And that was the 1950s. Now, what is remarkable is that civil rights in America were achieved in the 1960s. But what is equally remarkable is socioeconomic rights in Africa have not moved forward very fast even since the age of colonialism. And yet, America and Africa have got a common interest. And we have got to realize that if we don't link up with those people who are sensible voices and democratic voices in Africa, to work together for common causes, then the danger of Al Qaeda and related groups making progress in Africa is very big.
那是上世纪五十年代 耐人寻味的是 在美国,民权是到六十年代 才被普遍承认的 同样值得注意的是 非洲的社会和经济权利 自殖民时代以来 并没有大的改善 但是,美国和非洲 有一个共同利益 我们意识到 如果不团结起 非洲理性和民主的人士 为共同目标而努力 那么诸如基地组织等就会 在非洲大肆横行
So, I would say that what seems sometimes to be altruism, in relation to Africa, or in relation to developing countries, is more than that. It is enlightened self-interest for us to work with other countries. And I would say that national interest and, if you like, what is the global interest to tackle poverty and climate change do, in the long run, come together. And whatever the short-run price for taking action on climate change or on security, or taking action to provide opportunities for people for education, these are prices that are worth paying so that you build a stronger global society where people feel able to feel comfortable with each other and are able to communicate with each other in such a way that you can actually build stronger links between different countries.
所以我们对非洲国家的关系 还有其他发展中国家的关系 有时候看起来是利他主义,但远不止如此 我们从自身利益出发 去和其他国家合作 国家利益和 比如,消除贫困和应对气候变化的 全球利益是 在长期上是一致的 不论是针对气候变化、安全问题 或者提供教育机会 采取措施而带来的短期代价 是值得的 如此我们才能建设更强健的全球社会 人们能够平和相处 这样一来 国家间的关系 也就更紧密
CA: I still just want to draw out on this issue. So, you're on vacation at a nice beach, and word comes through that there's been a massive earthquake and that there is a tsunami advancing on the beach. One end of the beach, there is a house containing a family of five Nigerians. And at the other end of the beach there is a single Brit. You have time to --
CA:我还想深入了解一下这个问题 假如您在某个美丽的海滩上度假 听说发生了地震 海啸正向海滩袭来 海滩的一边是 尼日利亚一家五口人 海滩另一边 是一个英国人 你只有通知一户人家的时间
(Laughter)
你会怎么办?
you have time to alert one house. What do you do?
(笑声)
(Laughter)
GB:有现代通讯呢
GB: Modern communications.
(Applause)
(掌声)
Alert both.
两边都提醒(掌声)
(Applause)
我承认我的首要职责
I do agree that my responsibility is first of all to make sure that people in our country are safe. And I wouldn't like anything that is said today to suggest that I am diminishing the importance of the responsibility that each leader has for their own country.
是要保证 我国人民的安全 我希望我今天的话 被理解成我在 我对责任的重要性 责任的重要性
But I'm trying to suggest that there is a huge opportunity open to us that was never open to us before. But the power to communicate across borders allows us to organize the world in a different way. And I think, look at the tsunami, it's a classic example. Where was the early warning systems? Where was the world acting together to deal with the problems that they knew arose from the potential for earthquakes, as well as the potential for climate change? And when the world starts to work together, with better early-warning systems, you can deal with some of these problems in a better way. I just think we're not seeing, at the moment, the huge opportunities open to us by the ability of people to cooperate in a world where either there was isolationism before or there was limited alliances based on convenience which never actually took you to deal with some of the central problems.
我要说的是 我们今天拥有的机会 以前我们从未有过是 这是个我们能够跨越国界 用新方法鼓动起整个世界的机会 比如海啸,这是个经典例子 早期预警系统干什么去了? 为什么没有 针对地震和气候变化 导致的潜在问题的 共同行动方案 当我们有早期预警系统 来共同协作 那么你就能更好地 处理这些问题 我觉得我们没有看到 机会向我们敞开大门 只要我们能同心协力 抛弃之前的孤立主义 或者为了暂时利益 而结成的 无法解决核心问题的
CA: But I think this is the frustration that perhaps a lot of people have, like people in the audience here, where we love the kind of language that you're talking about. It is inspiring. A lot of us believe that that has to be the world's future. And yet, when the situation changes, you suddenly hear politicians talking as if, you know, for example, the life of one American soldier is worth countless numbers of Iraqi civilians. When the pedal hits the metal, the idealism can get moved away. I'm just wondering whether you can see that changing over time, whether you see in Britain that there are changing attitudes, and that people are actually more supportive of the kind of global ethic that you talk about.
短暂联盟 CA:但是我相信很多人 在场观众也会,有种挫折感 我们喜欢你说的话 振奋人心 很多人相信 这就是世界的未来 但是 一旦风向变了 这些政客们就是另一番说辞 比如,一个美国士兵的价值 抵过千万名伊拉克平民 但是一旦战线全速推进 理想主义就遁形了 我想知道 您觉得现在 或是在英国 人民的态度在转变吗? 是不是有很多人支持 您所谓的全球伦理?
GB: I think every religion, every faith, and I'm not just talking here to people of faith or religion -- it has this global ethic at the center of its credo. And whether it's Jewish or whether it's Muslim or whether it's Hindu, or whether it's Sikh, the same global ethic is at the heart of each of these religions. So, I think you're dealing with something that people instinctively see as part of their moral sense. So you're building on something that is not pure self-interest. You're building on people's ideas and values -- that perhaps they're candles that burn very dimly on certain occasions. But it is a set of values that cannot, in my view, be extinguished.
GB:我认为每种宗教,每种信仰 我不是在这儿对宗教和信仰 夸夸其谈 每种信仰在其教义里含有全球伦理 不论是犹太人还是穆斯林 不论是印度教徒还是锡克教徒 这些宗教的核心 都包括全球伦理 我想这是 人们本能地将其 看作自身道德的一部分 所以这并不是完全 自身利益的事 这是基于人们的理想和价值 如同蜡烛一样 有时候烛光微弱 但是我认为这些价值
Then the question is, how do you make that change happen? How do you persuade people that it is in their interest to build strong -- After the Second World War, we built institutions, the United Nations, the IMF, the World Bank, the World Trade Organization, the Marshall Plan. There was a period in which people talked about an act of creation, because these institutions were so new. But they are now out of date. They don't deal with the problems. You can't deal with the environmental problem through existing institutions. You can't deal with the security problem in the way that you need to. You can't deal with the economic and financial problem. So we have got to rebuild our global institutions, build them in a way that is suitable to the challenges of this time.
是不可能熄灭的 问题在于 怎样才能改变? 怎样才能说服人们 这是为了他们自身利益 二战以后 成立了一些国际组织 联合国,国际货币基金组织,世界银行 世界贸易组织,马歇尔计划 那个时期 人们都期待新的作为 因为这些组织当时还很新 但是现在他们已经过时了,无法解决问题 如我所说,现存的组织 无法解决环境问题 无法应对安全问题 无法应付经济和财政问题 我们必须重建全球性组织 使他们能够适应
And I believe that if you look at the biggest challenge we face, it is to persuade people to have the confidence that we can build a truly global society with the institutions that are founded on these rules. So, I come back to my initial point. Sometimes you think things are impossible. Nobody would have said 50 years ago that apartheid would have gone in 1990, or that the Berlin wall would have fallen at the turn of the '80s and '90s, or that polio could be eradicated, or perhaps 60 years ago, nobody would have said a man could gone to the Moon. All these things have happened. By tackling the impossible, you make the impossible possible.
现今的挑战 我相信 我们现在最大的挑战 是说服人们去相信 靠基于这些新年的组织 我们能建起一个真正的全球社会 所以回答我开始的观点 有时候你觉得不可能的事 五十年前没人会说 南非的种族隔离在1990年被消除 或是柏林墙会在八九十年代之际被推倒 或者小儿麻痹症能被根除 又或许六十年前没人会说 人类能登上月球 这些都发生了 始于不可能
CA: And we have had a speaker who said that very thing,
化为可能
and swallowed a sword right after that, which was quite dramatic.
CA:我们之前有个演讲者也这么说过 然后他就表演了吞剑 非常惊险(笑声)
(Laughter)
GB:下面我将表演吞剑(笑声)
GB: Followed my sword and swallow.
CA:但是一个真正的全球伦理
CA: But, surely a true global ethic is for someone to say, "I believe that the life of every human on the planet is worth the same, equal consideration, regardless of nationality and religion." And you have politicians who have -- you're elected. In a way, you can't say that. Even if, as a human being, you believe that, you can't say that. You're elected for Britain's interests.
人们会说 “我相信这个世界上的 每一个生命都是同等的 不论国籍宗教 需得到同等对待” 政治家是选出来的 所以某种程度上说你不能说这话 哪怕作为一个人来说你相信这一点 你也不能说 你被选择了代表英国人的利益
GB: We have a responsibility to protect. I mean look, 1918, the Treaty of Versailles, and all the treaties before that, the Treaty of Westphalia and everything else, were about protecting the sovereign right of countries to do what they want. Since then, the world has moved forward, partly as a result of what happened with the Holocaust, and people's concern about the rights of individuals within territories where they need protection, partly because of what we saw in Rwanda, partly because of what we saw in Bosnia. The idea of the responsibility to protect all individuals who are in situations where they are at humanitarian risk is now being established as a principle which governs the world.
GB:但是我们有责任去保护 1918年的凡尔赛条约 和之前的所有条约 威斯特伐利亚和约等等 都只是为了保护一个国家的主权 从而他们自己可以为所欲为 但世界有了变化 一部分是因为 对犹太人的大屠杀 人们对开始关注他们要保护的领土内 人们的权利 一部分是因为卢旺达的屠杀 一部分是发生在波斯尼亚的屠杀 保护所有处在 人道危机的人们的责任 已经成为了 世界上广泛接受原则
So, while I can't automatically say that Britain will rush to the aid of any citizen of any country, in danger, I can say that Britain is in a position where we're working with other countries so that this idea that you have a responsibility to protect people who are victims of either genocide or humanitarian attack, is something that is accepted by the whole world.
虽然我不能说 英国会义无反顾地投入 对任何一个国家处于危险的人们援救 但可以这么说英国会和 其他国家共同努力 把保护大屠杀的 或者人道攻击的受害者 视为己任的意识 推广到全世界
Now, in the end, that can only be achieved if your international institutions work well enough to be able to do so. And that comes back to what the future role of the United Nations, and what it can do, actually is. But, the responsibility to protect is a new idea that is, in a sense, taken over from the idea of self-determination as the principle governing the international community.
只有国际机构发挥效力 这个目标才能达成 这就说到联合国在未来的角色 及其力之所及 保护的责任 是一个新的概念 正取代原先国际社会的 民族自决的原则
CA: Can you picture, in our lifetimes, a politician ever going out on a platform of the kind of full-form global ethic, global citizenship? And basically saying, "I believe that all people across the planet have equal consideration, and if in power we will act in that way. And we believe that the people of this country are also now global citizens and will support that ethic."
CA:您觉得有可能在我们这一代 一个政客会在 一个全球伦理 世界公民的立场上,说 “我相信,全世界人民 应得到平等对待 如果当选我们将奉行此理念 我相信这个国家的国民也由此 成为世界公民并支持这样的伦理。”
GB: Is that not what we're doing in the debate about climate change? We're saying that you cannot solve the problem of climate change in one country; you've got to involve all countries. You're saying that you must, and you have a duty to help those countries that cannot afford to deal with the problems of climate change themselves. You're saying you want a deal with all the different countries of the world where we're all bound together to cutting carbon emissions in a way that is to the benefit of the whole world. We've never had this before because Kyoto didn't work. If you could get a deal at Copenhagen, where people agreed, A, that there was a long-term target for carbon emission cuts, B, that there was short-range targets that had to be met so this wasn't just abstract; it was people actually making decisions now that would make a difference now, and if you could then find a financing mechanism that meant that the poorest countries that had been hurt by our inability to deal with climate change over many, many years and decades are given special help so that they can move to energy-efficient technologies, and they are in a position financially to be able to afford the long-term investment that is associated with cutting carbon emissions, then you are treating the world equally, by giving consideration to every part of the planet and the needs they have.
GB:这不正是在气候变化之争中 我们的做法吗? 我们说一个国家 无法单独解决气候问题 所有国家都得参与 也就是说,我们有责任 帮助那些 无法独自解决 气候问题的国家 也就是说我们谋求与世界各国的合作 携手共同减排 从而惠及世界 如果能做到-这从来没有过 京都议定书没做到 如果在哥本哈根会议上 各国能够 在共同减排长期目标 和短期具体目标上 达成一致 这样的决议就有可能 带来变化 如果我们能找到财务机制 来帮助那些 因为过去很多年里由于 我们的不作为而 受牵连的贫困国家 从而他们可以转向节能科技 并且能在财务上 长期投资 来帮助减排 那么这就是对各国的公平对待 因为我们对每一个国家 都会考虑他们的需求
It doesn't mean that everybody does exactly the same thing, because we've actually got to do more financially to help the poorest countries, but it does mean there is equal consideration for the needs of citizens in a single planet.
这并不是说每个人的要求一样 因为我们应该为最贫困的国家 付出更多 但这意味着对全世界人民的需求 给予公平的对待
CA: Yes. And then of course the theory is still that those talks get rent apart by different countries fighting over their own individual interests.
CA:是的。但不可否认 各国为了各自利益 而撕破脸的忧虑仍然存在
GB: Yes, but I think Europe has got a position, which is 27 countries have already come together. I mean, the great difficulty in Europe is if you're at a meeting and 27 people speak, it takes a very, very long time. But we did get an agreement on climate change. America has made its first disposition on this with the bill that President Obama should be congratulated for getting through Congress. Japan has made an announcement. China and India have signed up to the scientific evidence. And now we've got to move them to accept a long-term target, and then short-term targets. But more progress has been made, I think, in the last few weeks than had been made for some years.
GB:是的。但我认为 欧盟27国已经 团结在了一起 最大的困难是 如果欧盟的27个盟国开会 很花时间 但是我们对气候变化有了共同认识 美国也对此首次作出表态 应该感谢奥巴马总统 为此在国会 作出的努力 日本也发表了声明 中国和印度在科学证明上签了字 下面我们要做的就是 促进他们采纳长期目标 和短期目标 过去的几周我们取得了很大成绩 远多去过去几年
And I do believe that there is a strong possibility that if we work together, we can get that agreement to Copenhagen. I certainly have been putting forward proposals that would have allowed the poorest parts of the world to feel that we have taken into account their specific needs. And we would help them adapt. And we would help them make the transition to a low-carbon economy.
我深信如果我们能够 携手努力 完全有可能达成哥本哈根协议 我自然也提出了相应提案 保证贫困国家的利益 在我们的 考虑之内 我们将帮助他们适应 过渡到 低碳经济
I do think a reform of the international institutions is vital to this. When the IMF was created in the 1940s, it was created with resources that were five percent or so of the world's GDP. The IMF now has limited resources, one percent. It can't really make the difference that ought to be made in a period of crisis. So, we've got to rebuild the world institutions. And that's a big task: persuading all the different countries with the different voting shares in these institutions to do so.
我认为国际机构的变革 是至关重要的一步 20世纪40年代,IMF设立之初 举全世界GDP百分之五的资源建成 现在的IMF只有百分之一的有限资源 无法在危机之时 力挽狂澜 所有我们要重建世界机构 我们任重道远 要说服在这些机构中持有不同投票权的国家 是很困难的
There is a story told about the three world leaders of the day getting a chance to get some advice from God. And the story is told that Bill Clinton went to God and he asked when there will be successful climate change and a low-carbon economy. And God shook his head and said, "Not this year, not this decade, perhaps not even in [your] lifetime." And Bill Clinton walked away in tears because he had failed to get what he wanted.
有个故事 说的是当时三位领导人 向上帝 寻求建议的事 说比尔・克林顿 找上帝 问问什么时候才会有 成功的气候变化和低碳经济 上帝摇摇头说 “不在今年,不在这十年间。 也许你这辈子都不一定。” 比尔・克林顿伤心地走了 因为他没能达成他的目标
And then the story is that Barroso, the president of the European Commission, went to God and he asked, "When will we get a recovery of global growth?" And God said, "Not this year, not in this decade, perhaps not in your lifetime." So Barroso walked away crying and in tears.
然后是巴罗索 欧盟执委会主席 去找上帝问 “全球经济什么时候复苏?” 上帝说:“不在今年,不在这十年间。 也许你这辈子都不一定。” 巴罗索伤心地走了
And then the Secretary-General of the United Nations came up to speak to God and said, "When will our international institutions work?" And God cried.
然后是 联合国秘书长 去找上帝 问”咱们国际机构 什么时候才能有点作用?“
(Laughter)
上帝哭了
It is very important to recognize that this reform of institutions is the next stage after agreeing upon ourselves that there is a clear ethic upon which we can build.
(笑声) 在对我们可以 共建全球伦理达成共识后 下一步就是 国际机构的改革 认识到这一点
CA: Prime Minister, I think there are many in the audience
非常重要
who are truly appreciative of the efforts you made in terms of the financial mess we got ourselves into. And there are certainly many people in the audience who will be cheering you on as you seek to advance this global ethic.
CA:首相阁下,我想下面有很多观众 对您针对我们所处的经济危机 作出的努力是很感动的 肯定也会有很多观众 会赞同您提倡的全球伦理
Thank you so much for coming to TED.
非常感谢您的光临
GB: Well, thank you.
GB:也谢谢你
(Applause)
(鼓掌)