Shah Rukh Khan: Be it Mumbai or Delhi, Chennai or Kolkata, all our big cities have one great thing in common, they happily welcome people from smaller places arriving in search of work. What is also true is that this warm welcome leads to consequences. Problems like housing in these cities are born. Today we have with us a human settlement expert and researcher: Dr. Gautam Bhan, who is re-imagining a solution to this increasing problem. He will share with us the new picture of urban India that he can see. TED Talks India New Thoughts welcomes Dr. Gautam Bhan. Dr. Gautam Bhan, everyone.
沙魯克罕:不論孟買或德里, 清奈或加爾各答, 我們所有的大城市都有一個共同點, 它們都快樂地歡迎 從小地方來找工作的人。 還有一點,就是這樣的 溫暖歡迎是會有後果的。 在這些城市中, 住房的問題就產生了。 今天我們請到人類住居專家 和研究者,高塔姆布博士, 針對這個日益嚴重的問題, 他正在重新思考解決方案。 他要和我們分享 他看見的印度都市寫照。 TED Talks 印度場「新點子」 歡迎高塔姆布博士。 各位,高塔姆布博士。
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Gautam Bhan: In this country, until a few years ago, if you asked someone: "Where are you from?" the answer would be Delhi, Mumbai, Kolkata. You'd immediately ask again: "Where do you belong?" Until recently in India, nobody was from a city; people only migrated to the city. This is changing. Urbanization is changing India, but are our cities prepared?
高塔姆布:在這個國家, 直到幾年前, 如果你問別人: 「你來自哪裡?」 答案可能會是德里、 孟買、加爾各答。 你馬上接著再問: 「你屬於哪裡?」 在印度,直到最近, 都沒有人是來自城市的; 人們只是移居到城市。 這正在改變。 都市化正在改變印度, 但我們的城市準備好了嗎?
Let's assume you were born somewhere else. Your parents worked as laborers all day. Then you too would have come to a city for progress. Or maybe, like it happens today, you were born in the city itself. One day you go out looking for an accommodation in the city, to buy or maybe just to rent. Will you be able find an affordable home?
假設你在其他地方出生。 你的父母每天要做勞力工作。 你也會進城去找發展。 或者就像現今的狀況,你生在城市裡。 有天,你外出到城市裡尋求住處, 去買房子或是只是去租房子。 你能夠找到你負擔得起的家嗎?
The government says we are falling short of at least 20 million homes. 20 million homes, that's 100 million people. And this is not the shortage of <i>3 BHKs</i> (bedroom hall kitchen). 95 percent of the shortage is for people earning 10 to 15,000 rupees per month. Will you be able to find an affordable home in this budget? If this happened with you, what would you do?
政府說,我們至少缺少了兩千萬個家。 兩千萬個家,那就是一億人。 這並不是短少全套公寓 (臥房、客廳、廚房)。 短少的住房中,有 95% 是月收入 10,000~15,000 盧比的人需要的住房。 用這樣的預算,你能找到 負擔得起的住房嗎? 若發生在你身上,你會怎麼做?
Home is not a car or some sort of jewellery. Home is food and clothes. Nobody can live without it. If you couldn't find a home in a city to either buy or rent, you too would be driven to do what most people end up doing. Make a home wherever possible. You too would make a <i>settlement.</i> The government may keep calling it a <i>slum,</i> but like the people living there, I too will call it a settlement.
家並不是車子或是某種珠寶。 家是食物和衣著。 沒有家,沒有人可以生活。 如果你在城市中無法買或租一個家, 你也會被迫和多數人一樣, 在任何能夠棲身之處住下來。 你會住下來。 政府可能稱它為貧民窟, 但和那裡的居民一樣, 我也會稱它為定居處。
One hundred million are not homeless. They have homes. Homes they built on their own. But most of these homes are in settlements. This is the truth of an affordable home in India. The homes in settlements are cheap, but not sturdy. The homes outside are sturdy, but not cheap.
一億人並不是無家可歸, 他們有家, 他們自己建造的家。 但這些家大部份都在定居處。 這是印度可負擔之家的真相。 定居處的家便宜,但不堅固。 外面的家則堅固,但不便宜。
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We will have to lay the foundation of a new thought from here itself. A settlement is not a problem; it is a solution. We just have to make it secure and sturdy. To fulfill the shortage of 20 million homes you cannot make 20 million 25 square foot flats, and neither should you be making them.
我們得為這裡產生的新想法奠定基礎。 定居處並不是問題,解決方案才是。 我們得把它做得更安全、更堅固。 若要補足短少的兩億間住家, 不可能建造兩億間 25 平方英尺的平房, 也不應該這麼做。
For example take the Karnataka government. They have a very good record in this. By 2020, Karnataka needs 2.6 million homes. In the last ten years they have managed to make 350,000 homes. Even if a government tries with complete sincerity, it cannot fulfill this need in the next couple of lifetimes. If we do not make new homes, then what is the next solution? How to make a settlement secure?
以卡納塔克邦政府為例。 他們在這方面有很好的記錄。 到 2020 年,卡納塔克邦 會需要 260 萬間住家。 在過去十年間,他們已經 想辦法產出了 35 萬間住家。 即使政府用最大誠意來努力, 也無法滿足接下來幾代的需求。 如果我們不建立新家, 下一個解決方案是什麼? 如何讓定居處變安全?
Firstly, eviction needs to be stopped. Bulldozing needs to be stopped. Never has that resulted in progress in the past, nor will it in the future.
首先,驅逐必須要停止。 鏟平必須要停止。 在過去,那些做法並沒有造成進步, 在未來也不可能會。
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We have to start believing that the laborers who build and run the city have a right over the land of that city.
我們得要開始相信, 建立並管理城市的勞工 擁有該城市之土地的權力。
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I know you are thinking that settlements are made on illegally captured land, but capturing of land never happens in the dead of the night. Whether the land belongs to the government or not, a settlement is never formed secretly. It is inhabited over time. The government also agrees that the settlements in our cities have been there for over 10, 20, 30, even 40 years. What kind of illegally captured land is this, which was ignored for 30 years and suddenly a day before eviction is declared illegal? A settlement can easily accommodate 15 to 60 percent of a city's population by using just one, two or maximum ten percent of the land. Can such a huge number of people not have a right over this small bit of land?
我知道你們在想, 定居處建在非法占用的土地上。 但占用土地並不是一夜發生的。 不論土地是否屬於政府, 定居處都不可能是安全建成的。 隨時間,它開始有人居住。 政府也知道 我們城市中的定居處已經在那裡有 10、20、30,甚至 40 年之久了。 這算是什麼非法佔用的土地? 三十年來都沒人管, 卻在驅逐的前一天 突然宣佈是非法的? 定居處可輕易容納 城市中 15%~60% 的人口, 只要用那土地的 1%、2%,最多 10%。 難道不能給予這麼多的人擁有 這麼小小一塊地的權力嗎?
A city's progress is often measured by the cost of its land. How do you ascribe a cost to the life of a person living on a piece of land? A settlement is not asking you for shiny homes; all it's asking for is basic necessities: electricity, roads, water, toilets and drainage. We call this <i>upgradation.</i> Here's an example of upgradation. In Ahmedabad, they started a program where for ten years, 44 settlements were promised there wouldn't be any eviction. Only a promise. Nothing written, no documents. And basic necessities were provided to them. In ten years that slum changed into a locality, a place, a world of its own. The government didn't have to build even a single new home.
一個城市的進步,通常是 用其土地的成本來測量。 居住在一小片土地上的 人命成本要如何計算? 定居處的居民並不要求華麗的住房; 只請求最基本的需要: 電力、道路、供水、廁所、下水道。 我們稱之為升級。 以下是個升級的例子。 在艾哈邁德阿巴德有一項專案, 保證針對 44 個定居處 在十年內都不會進行任何驅逐。 只是一個保證, 沒有書面文件。 提供他們基本的必需品。 十年後,那貧民窟本身轉變成了 一個地區、一個地方、一個世界。 政府甚至不需要 建立任何一間新住所。
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Thailand launched this program at national scale, benefiting 100,000 people in 137 cities. And every person was given the right to live over that land. But pay attention here. Not the right to sell, but the right to live there, use it, settle on it. The whole world knows now that to move forward, we cannot remove settlements. We can only advance when we think of ways to make settlements secure and sturdy. But just one thing. If we know it, then why doesn't it happen?
泰國在全國推行的專案 讓 137 個城市的十萬人受惠。 且每個人都得到 住在那塊土地上的權利。 但,要注意。 不是販售的權利, 而是居住在那裡的權利, 可以使用這塊土地,在上面定居。 現在全世界都知道要向前走, 我們不能移除定居處。 只有透過思考如何讓定居處 更安全、更堅固,才能讓我們進步。 但有個重點。 如果我們知道這些,為什麼沒實現?
To apply this new thinking to settlements, we, that is you and me, need to look deep within and get rid of the disgust, disrespect and apprehensions that we have. Actually I should not be standing here in front of you today. A person from the settlement who lives there should be standing here. But if someone like that came here, you wouldn't have listened to him. You are listening to me, because you think I am not from a settlement. This is the very thought that needs to be changed.
要把這個新想法應用到定居處上, 我們,你和我,需要看得更深入, 拋棄我們原本的反感、 不尊重,以及擔心憂慮。 其實,今天站在這裡, 站在各位面前的人不應該是我。 應該是一位住在定居處的人才對。 但如果那樣的人來到這裡, 你們也不會聽他說。 你們會傾聽我,是因為你們認為 我不是來自定居處的人。 正是這種想法需要被改變。
Thank you.
謝謝。
(Applause) SRK: Thank you very much. Thank you, Dr. Gautam Bhan. Thanks a lot.
(掌聲) 沙魯克罕:非常謝謝你, 高塔姆布博士。 十分感謝。
Please tell me, you just gave an example of Thailand and the big thing there is the homes are for people to settle in, not to sell. They cannot be used for sale. Is there a similar thought process or program in our country too, inspired by your talks and those of people around you?
請告訴我,你剛剛舉了泰國的例子, 例子的重點是, 那些住房是給人們定居用的, 不是銷售用的。 它們不能被拿來買賣。 你的演說以及你身邊的人, 是否有在我們的國家裡 鼓舞了類似的想法或計畫?
GB: I wouldn't say by me, but by the people movement who are fighting for rights in the city. That is making a difference. For instance, in Odisha the Chief Minister, Mr. Patnaik, announced the same scheme: that all the people in settlements will have rights over that land.
高塔姆布:我不會說是我鼓舞的, 而是由那些在城市中為了權利 而奮戰的人民運動所鼓舞的。 那會造成不同。 比如,在奧里薩邦, 首席部長帕特奈克 宣佈了同樣的方案: 在定居地的所有人, 都有那塊土地的權利。
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And I think this scheme shouldn't be called populism; it should be called an economic development strategy. Because economic development does not happen from the top, but from the bottom.
我認為這項方案不該 被稱為是民粹主義; 它應該被稱為是經濟發展策略。 因為經濟發展不是 從上位開始的,而是從基層。
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SRK: I too promise I will only say settlements, and not slums, ever again. 100 percent.
沙魯克罕:我也保證, 我以後絕對只會說定居地, 不會說貧民窟這詞。
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Dr. Bhan you came here and said such wonderful things. There is a song. I will not sing it, as I am a terrible singer.
博士,你來這裡說了 很多很棒的內容。 有一首歌,我不會唱出來, 因為我很不會唱歌。
GB: I too am a terrible singer.
高塔姆布:我也很不會唱歌。
SRK: But we can't keep shut also, because we are saying wonderful things. (laughter) So we will just say it. Slowly the heart will find settlement. GB: Slowly the heart will find settlement. SRK: Only then will life be filled with love and fun times.
沙魯克罕:但我們也不能不作聲, 因為我們說了很棒的內容。 (笑聲) 那就用說的吧。 慢慢地,心會找到定居處。 高塔姆布:慢慢地,心會找到定居處。 沙魯罕:唯有到那時, 生命才會充滿愛和歡樂時光。
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Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Gautam Bhan. Thank you.
各位先生女士, 高塔姆布博士。謝謝。
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Thank you very much.
非常謝謝。
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