Shah Rukh Khan: Be it Mumbai or Delhi, Chennai or Kolkata, all our big cities have one great thing in common, they happily welcome people from smaller places arriving in search of work. What is also true is that this warm welcome leads to consequences. Problems like housing in these cities are born. Today we have with us a human settlement expert and researcher: Dr. Gautam Bhan, who is re-imagining a solution to this increasing problem. He will share with us the new picture of urban India that he can see. TED Talks India New Thoughts welcomes Dr. Gautam Bhan. Dr. Gautam Bhan, everyone.
无论是孟买还是德里, 是金奈还是加尔各答, 我们所有的大城市都有一个共同点, 这些大城市都欢迎外地人来找工作, 但这如此温暖的欢迎 也会带来许多危机。 像是住房紧缺的问题也随之而来。 今天,人居环境专家和研究者 古塔姆巴汗教授将为我们分享 对于这一日益严峻的 问题的解决方法, 他会为我们分享他眼中 创新的印度城市蓝图, 欢迎来到印度版《TED Talks 新点子》 , 让我们欢迎古塔姆·巴汗教授。 古塔姆·巴汗教授,欢迎!
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Gautam Bhan: In this country, until a few years ago, if you asked someone: "Where are you from?" the answer would be Delhi, Mumbai, Kolkata. You'd immediately ask again: "Where do you belong?" Until recently in India, nobody was from a city; people only migrated to the city. This is changing. Urbanization is changing India, but are our cities prepared?
在印度,不知从几年前起, 如果你问某人: “你来自哪里?” 他们都会回答 德里,孟买,加尔各答。 然后你马上就会问: “那你是属于哪里呢?” 在不久之前,还没有多少人 是真正来自这些城市; 他们多半是迁移于此。 这是一大改变。 城市化正在改变着印度, 但是我们的城市准备好 应对这一改变了吗?
Let's assume you were born somewhere else. Your parents worked as laborers all day. Then you too would have come to a city for progress. Or maybe, like it happens today, you were born in the city itself. One day you go out looking for an accommodation in the city, to buy or maybe just to rent. Will you be able find an affordable home?
我们假设你是出生于别处, 你的父母在城里打工, 所以你随父母搬到了大城市, 或者就像今天发生的, 你就恰巧出生在了大城市, 总有一天,你要独立地在城市中 寻找属于自己的住所, 去买房,或者只是租房。 你能够找到一个你负担得起的家吗?
The government says we are falling short of at least 20 million homes. 20 million homes, that's 100 million people. And this is not the shortage of <i>3 BHKs</i> (bedroom hall kitchen). 95 percent of the shortage is for people earning 10 to 15,000 rupees per month. Will you be able to find an affordable home in this budget? If this happened with you, what would you do?
政府说我们还缺少 至少 2000 万间住所, 2000 万个住所, 那就是 1 亿的人民的家。 这不是说只缺 3 BHKs (三室一厅一厨房格局), 95% 的住房短缺 针对的是每月收入 10 到 15000 卢比的人。 这笔预算能让你找到 一个负担得起的家吗? 如果这发生在你身上, 你会怎么做?
Home is not a car or some sort of jewellery. Home is food and clothes. Nobody can live without it. If you couldn't find a home in a city to either buy or rent, you too would be driven to do what most people end up doing. Make a home wherever possible. You too would make a <i>settlement.</i> The government may keep calling it a <i>slum,</i> but like the people living there, I too will call it a settlement.
我说的家,不是一辆车, 更不是首饰珠宝, 家是能吃得饱、冻不着的地方, 没有人能居无住所。 如果你不能在城市里找到一个家, 不管是买还是租, 你就不得不去做 大部分人必须做的事, 不管怎么样都要寻找一个容身之处。 你也要有一个落脚的地方, 政府称之为贫民窟, 但就像那些住在里面的人, 我会把它称之为聚居地。
One hundred million are not homeless. They have homes. Homes they built on their own. But most of these homes are in settlements. This is the truth of an affordable home in India. The homes in settlements are cheap, but not sturdy. The homes outside are sturdy, but not cheap.
这一亿人民不是无家可归, 他们有家, 他们靠自己的双手创造的家, 但是其中大多数家 只能算是个聚居地。 在印度,这就是“可负担的家”的真相。 这些聚居地很便宜, 设施却很简陋。 外面世界的家很完美, 却一点也不便宜。
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We will have to lay the foundation of a new thought from here itself. A settlement is not a problem; it is a solution. We just have to make it secure and sturdy. To fulfill the shortage of 20 million homes you cannot make 20 million 25 square foot flats, and neither should you be making them.
从这里开始, 我们要为新点子埋下种子。 聚居地不应该变成一个问题, 而应该成为一个解决的办法。 我们要做的仅仅是 让它们变得安全而坚固。 为了填补这 2000 万短缺的住房, 你没法创造出 2000 万间 25 平方英尺的公寓, 你也不应该去建造它们。
For example take the Karnataka government. They have a very good record in this. By 2020, Karnataka needs 2.6 million homes. In the last ten years they have managed to make 350,000 homes. Even if a government tries with complete sincerity, it cannot fulfill this need in the next couple of lifetimes. If we do not make new homes, then what is the next solution? How to make a settlement secure?
就拿卡纳塔克邦政府为例, 他们就在这方面做出了很好的表率。 到 2020 年,卡纳塔克邦 需要 2600 万个住所, 在过去的十年里, 他们只完成了 35 万个住房。 即使政府带着解决问题的诚意, 这个目标还是遥不可及。 如果我们不去创造新的聚居地, 那下一个解决之策又能是什么呢? 怎样才能让这些聚居地 变得安全起来?
Firstly, eviction needs to be stopped. Bulldozing needs to be stopped. Never has that resulted in progress in the past, nor will it in the future.
首先,先停下无休止的驱逐, 强制拆除的方案也应该停下。 这些都是无用功, 无论是在过去还是未来。
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We have to start believing that the laborers who build and run the city have a right over the land of that city.
我们必须坚信,因为有了这些 劳动力,我们的城市才得以运转, 而他们在城市里 也应当拥有属于自己的权利。
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I know you are thinking that settlements are made on illegally captured land, but capturing of land never happens in the dead of the night. Whether the land belongs to the government or not, a settlement is never formed secretly. It is inhabited over time. The government also agrees that the settlements in our cities have been there for over 10, 20, 30, even 40 years. What kind of illegally captured land is this, which was ignored for 30 years and suddenly a day before eviction is declared illegal? A settlement can easily accommodate 15 to 60 percent of a city's population by using just one, two or maximum ten percent of the land. Can such a huge number of people not have a right over this small bit of land?
我知道你们一定在想, 这些贫民窟都是非法占用土地, 但是别忘了,没人会在 死气沉沉的夜晚去偷窃土地。 不论这块地是不是属于政府, 一个聚居地从来 不是悄悄地出现的。 它是长久以来 一直有人居住着的。 政府也一直默认 它们的存在, 这些聚居地至少在大城市里存在了 10 年、20 年、30 年,甚至40年。 这算是什么非法占用土地, 可以被忽视 30 年之久, 然后忽然在驱逐的前一天 被认定是非法占用土地? 一个小小的聚居地足以容纳 我们城市 15%-60% 的人口, 它需要的仅仅是 1%、2% 或是最多 10% 的土地。 为什么这么多人民连拥有 如此小小一片土地的权利都没有呢?
A city's progress is often measured by the cost of its land. How do you ascribe a cost to the life of a person living on a piece of land? A settlement is not asking you for shiny homes; all it's asking for is basic necessities: electricity, roads, water, toilets and drainage. We call this <i>upgradation.</i> Here's an example of upgradation. In Ahmedabad, they started a program where for ten years, 44 settlements were promised there wouldn't be any eviction. Only a promise. Nothing written, no documents. And basic necessities were provided to them. In ten years that slum changed into a locality, a place, a world of its own. The government didn't have to build even a single new home.
一个城市的发展往往 以一片土地的价值来衡量, 但是你又该如何衡量一片土地 能给予一个人容身之处的价值呢? 一个聚居地不意味着 要你去建一个豪华的家; 它只不过是可以提供 正常生活的必须条件: 水电,道路,厕所和下水道。 我们称之为设施改善。 举一个设施改善的例子: 在艾哈迈达巴德, 他们启动了一个项目, 这个项目保证十年之内 44 个聚居地 不会受到驱逐的威胁—— 这仅仅只是一个保证, 没有记录,更没有存档—— 然后提供给那里的人们 基础生活必需品。 十年以后,这个贫民窟变成了 一个地区、一个属于他们自己的世界, 而政府完全不需要 去为他们建一个新家了。
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Thailand launched this program at national scale, benefiting 100,000 people in 137 cities. And every person was given the right to live over that land. But pay attention here. Not the right to sell, but the right to live there, use it, settle on it. The whole world knows now that to move forward, we cannot remove settlements. We can only advance when we think of ways to make settlements secure and sturdy. But just one thing. If we know it, then why doesn't it happen?
泰国在全国范围内启动了这个项目, 137 个城市里的十万人民因此受益。 每一个人都拥有了 在这片土地上生活的权利。 但请注意, 不是去出售这片土地的权利, 仅仅是能居住在这里的权利, 使用它,居住的权利。 全世界现在都知道要进步, 我们或许不能清除贫民窟, 我们却可以想办法 让这些地方变得安全而坚固。 但还有一件事, 如果我们知道了, 那为什么没能实现?
To apply this new thinking to settlements, we, that is you and me, need to look deep within and get rid of the disgust, disrespect and apprehensions that we have. Actually I should not be standing here in front of you today. A person from the settlement who lives there should be standing here. But if someone like that came here, you wouldn't have listened to him. You are listening to me, because you think I am not from a settlement. This is the very thought that needs to be changed.
为了让这一新的设想实现, 我们,也就是你们和我, 都需要了解并摆脱心中 那些厌恶、不敬和恐惧的态度, 我甚至觉得今天 我都不应该站在这里, 真正应该站在这里的 应当是一个生活在那里的人。 但是如果真的是那样的话, 我觉得你们甚至都不像听他讲了。 你们听我讲,因为你们觉得 我不是来自聚居地, 这就是我们需要去改变的想法。
Thank you.
谢谢大家。
(Applause) SRK: Thank you very much. Thank you, Dr. Gautam Bhan. Thanks a lot.
(掌声) 沙鲁克汗:非常感谢您。 谢谢您,古塔姆·巴汗教授。 非常感谢。
Please tell me, you just gave an example of Thailand and the big thing there is the homes are for people to settle in, not to sell. They cannot be used for sale. Is there a similar thought process or program in our country too, inspired by your talks and those of people around you?
请你告诉我,你刚刚 为我们分享了泰国的例子。 最精彩的部分是, 家不应该是为了出售, 而是为了提供容身之所。 它们的存在不应该是为了出售。 那么在印度是不是也有相似的项目 是受到了你和你身边的人的启发?
GB: I wouldn't say by me, but by the people movement who are fighting for rights in the city. That is making a difference. For instance, in Odisha the Chief Minister, Mr. Patnaik, announced the same scheme: that all the people in settlements will have rights over that land.
古塔姆:我不会说只是因为我, 我会说是受到了为这城市里的 人权奋斗的无数人的启发, 是他们实现了这种改变。 比如,奥里萨邦的 首席部长普提尼卡先生 就宣布了同样的策略: 在聚居地生活的人们 应当拥有对土地的权利。
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And I think this scheme shouldn't be called populism; it should be called an economic development strategy. Because economic development does not happen from the top, but from the bottom.
我觉得这样的设想 不应该被称为平民主义; 而是应当被视为经济发展策略。 因为经济的发展不是自上而下的, 恰恰相反,它来自于人民基本生活的改善。
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SRK: I too promise I will only say settlements, and not slums, ever again. 100 percent.
沙鲁克汗:我也在此保证, 我以后绝对不再称聚居地 为贫民窟。100% 保证。
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Dr. Bhan you came here and said such wonderful things. There is a song. I will not sing it, as I am a terrible singer.
巴汗教授,你来到这里, 带来了如此精彩的演讲。 有这样一首歌—— 我唱歌很难听,所以我不会唱。
GB: I too am a terrible singer.
古纳姆:我也唱得很差。
SRK: But we can't keep shut also, because we are saying wonderful things. (laughter) So we will just say it. Slowly the heart will find settlement. GB: Slowly the heart will find settlement. SRK: Only then will life be filled with love and fun times.
沙鲁克汗:但是我们不会闭嘴的, 因为这段歌词非常美好。 (笑声) 所以我们还是说出来吧。 慢慢地,心会找到归宿。 古纳姆:慢慢地,心会找到归宿。 沙鲁克汗:只有那一刻 生活才充满了爱和喜悦。
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Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Gautam Bhan. Thank you.
女士们,先生们, 感谢古纳姆·巴汗教授!
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Thank you very much.
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