I was born in Den Bosch, where the painter Hieronymus Bosch named himself after. And I've always been very fond of this painter who lived and worked in the 15th century. And what is interesting about him in relation to morality is that he lived at a time where religion's influence was waning, and he was sort of wondering, I think, what would happen with society if there was no religion or if there was less religion. And so he painted this famous painting, "The Garden of Earthly Delights," which some have interpreted as being humanity before the Fall, or being humanity without any Fall at all. And so it makes you wonder, what would happen if we hadn't tasted the fruit of knowledge, so to speak, and what kind of morality would we have.
我出生在荷蘭的希罗尼穆斯·波希 畫家希罗尼穆斯·波希的姓 波希 指的就是這個地方 我一直很喜歡這位 15 世紀的畫家 我對他的道德觀非常感興趣 他正好生在一個宗教影響力日漸衰弱的時代 我想 他也會覺得有點疑惑 社會會怎樣發展 要是沒有宗教,或者宗教響力不足的話 所以他畫了一幅非常著名的畫,叫"樂園" 有些人認為這畫描繪的是 阿當和夏娃被逐出伊甸園之前的人性 或者是如果他們從未被逐出伊甸園的人性 所以這不禁讓人想問 如果人類沒有嚐禁果 那分辨是非的果實的話 我們又會有怎樣的道德觀呢?
Much later, as a student, I went to a very different garden, a zoological garden in Arnhem where we keep chimpanzees. This is me at an early age with a baby chimpanzee.
後來 那時我還是個學生 我去了一個非常特別的公園 那是在荷蘭阿納姆的一個動物園 那裏養著幾隻黑猩猩 照片中的是年輕時候的我和小黑猩猩
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
And I discovered there that the chimpanzees are very power-hungry and wrote a book about it. And at that time the focus in a lot of animal research was on aggression and competition. I painted a whole picture of the animal kingdom and humanity included, was that deep down we are competitors, we are aggressive, we are all out for our own profit, basically. This is the launch of my book. I'm not sure how well the chimpanzees read it, but they surely seemed interested in the book.
在那裏我發現 黑猩猩非常渴望權力 針對這點 我寫了一本書 在當時很多研究都把重心 放在動物的侵略性和競爭性 我就把動物界的全貌展現出來 其中包含了人性 因為說到底 我們也都在互相競爭 我們也有侵略性 基本上我們都在爭取自己的利益 這是我出版的書 我不知道黑猩猩讀懂了多少 不過 看起來他們對這本書非常感興趣
(Laughter)
現在 在我做
Now in the process of doing all this work on power and dominance and aggression and so on, I discovered that chimpanzees reconcile after fights. And so what you see here is two males who have had a fight. They ended up in a tree, and one of them holds out a hand to the other. And about a second after I took the picture, they came together in the fork of the tree and kissed and embraced each other.
關於權力、支配關係以及 侵略性等的研究過程之中 我發現黑猩猩在爭鬥後會和好 現在你看到的是兩隻剛打完架的公黑猩猩 最後 它們在樹上著彼此的手 在我拍完這張照片的下一秒鐘 它們一起來到樹枝上 親吻和擁抱對方 我覺得非常有趣
And this is very interesting because at the time, everything was about competition and aggression, so it wouldn't make any sense. The only thing that matters is that you win or you lose. But why reconcile after a fight? That doesn't make any sense. This is the way bonobos do it. Bonobos do everything with sex. And so they also reconcile with sex. But the principle is exactly the same. The principle is that you have a valuable relationship that is damaged by conflict, so you need to do something about it. So my whole picture of the animal kingdom, and including humans also, started to change at that time.
因為當時我只想著競爭和侵略 所以這看起來完全沒道理 重要的明明是輸贏 那打完架為甚麼又要和好呢? 這實在說不通 這是倭黑猩猩處理的方式 它們每件事都可以扯上性 所以它們和好的方式是做愛 這中間的道理是一樣的 就是當你有一段 很重要的關係 而這關係因為衝突而被破壞了 所以你需要去處理這件事 所以我對整個動物界的看法 還有對人類的看法 就在那時候開始有了轉變
So we have this image in political science, economics, the humanities, the philosophy for that matter, that man is a wolf to man. And so deep down, our nature is actually nasty. I think it's a very unfair image for the wolf. The wolf is, after all, a very cooperative animal. And that's why many of you have a dog at home, which has all these characteristics also. And it's really unfair to humanity, because humanity is actually much more cooperative and empathic than given credit for. So I started getting interested in those issues and studying that in other animals.
所以我們可以 從政治科學、經濟學、人文科學 以及哲學的角度來看這整件事 人就像一匹狼 天性其實是很惡劣 我想這樣形容其實對狼是很不公平 畢竟狼是 一種很擅於合作的動物 所以才會有那麼多人在家裏養狗 因為狗也是非常擅於合作的 其實這對人性也是個不公平的描述 因為人性包含更多的是合作性和同理心 只是我們沒太強調而已 所以我開始對這些問題產生興趣 並且開始研究其它動物
So these are the pillars of morality. If you ask anyone, "What is morality based on?" these are the two factors that always come out. One is reciprocity, and associated with it is a sense of justice and a sense of fairness. And the other one is empathy and compassion. And human morality is more than this, but if you would remove these two pillars, there would be not much remaining, I think. So they're absolutely essential.
這是道德的支柱 如果你問,道德是基於什麼東西? 這答案總是脫離不了兩個因素 一個是互惠 與之關聯的是正義和公平 另一個因素是同理心和同情心 人類的道德比這複雜多了 不過要是沒有了這兩個支柱 我想其它也沒剩下太多其它的了 我想就不會有所謂的人性了
So let me give you a few examples here. This is a very old video from the Yerkes Primate Center, where they trained chimpanzees to cooperate. So this is already about a hundred years ago that we were doing experiments on cooperation. What you have here is two young chimpanzees who have a box, and the box is too heavy for one chimp to pull in. And of course, there's food on the box. Otherwise they wouldn't be pulling so hard. And so they're bringing in the box. And you can see that they're synchronized. You can see that they work together, they pull at the same moment. It's already a big advance over many other animals who wouldn't be able to do that. Now you're going to get a more interesting picture, because now one of the two chimps has been fed. So one of the two is not really interested in the task anymore.
讓我給大家舉幾個例子 這是 耶克斯靈長類動物中心在很久以前拍的影片 人們在訓練黑猩猩互相合作 所以 大概是一百年前 人們就已經在做關於合作的實驗 你可以看到這兩隻年輕的黑猩猩 它們有個箱子 這箱子的重量 光靠其中一隻黑猩猩是拉不動的 當然 箱子上面放了一些食物 不然它們不會拉得那麼使勁 它們現在正在拉那個箱子 你看 它們動作一致 你可以看到它們同時使力 一起拉動箱子 這相對於其它動物 已經是一個很大的優勢了 很多動物都不能做到 接下來你會看到一個更有趣的畫面 現在把兩隻黑猩猩中的其中一隻餵飽 所以這隻猩猩對拉箱子 已經沒什麼興趣了
(Laughter)
(笑)
(Laughter)
(笑)
(Laughter)
(笑)
[- and sometimes appears to convey its wishes and meanings by gestures.] Now look at what happens at the very end of this.
注意看最後發生甚麼事
(Laughter)
(笑)
He takes basically everything.
它幾乎拿走所有的食物了
(Laughter)
(笑)
There are two interesting parts about this. One is that the chimp on the right has a full understanding he needs the partner -- so a full understanding of the need for cooperation. The second one is that the partner is willing to work even though he's not interested in the food. Why would that be? Well, that probably has to do with reciprocity. There's actually a lot of evidence in primates and other animals that they return favors. He will get a return favor at some point in the future. And so that's how this all operates.
這裡有兩個很有趣的部分 第一個是 右邊的這隻黑猩猩 它很清楚它需要它的夥伴 這說明它能理解合作的重要性 第二個是 這個夥伴也願意幫助 即使它對那些食物已經不感興趣 為什麼呢? 這該和互惠有關 在靈長類和一些動物身上 其實有很多證據能證明 它們會報恩 所以在將來 它會得到回報 這就是動物之間相互幫助的原因
We do the same task with elephants. Now, it's very dangerous to work with elephants. Another problem with elephants is that you cannot make an apparatus that is too heavy for a single elephant. Now you can probably make it, but it's going to be a pretty clumsy apparatus, I think. And so what we did in that case -- we do these studies in Thailand for Josh Plotnik -- is we have an apparatus around which there is a rope, a single rope. And if you pull on this side of the rope, the rope disappears on the other side. So two elephants need to pick it up at exactly the same time, and pull. Otherwise nothing is going to happen and the rope disappears.
我們對大象也做了同樣的實驗 對大象做實驗可是很危險的 還有一個問題就是 你沒辦法弄一個一隻大象 無法獨立拉動的裝置 其實是可以做到的 只是我想那東西還是不大可靠 所以我們採取了別的方法 我們在泰國幫 喬希·普拉尼克做了這樣一個實驗 我們用一條繩子圍著裝置 如果只拉繩子的一端 另一邊就會往後縮 所以兩隻大象必須同時撿起繩子拉 不然這裝置就不會動 而繩子也會縮到裝置後面
The first tape you're going to see is two elephants who are released together arrive at the apparatus. The apparatus is on the left, with food on it. And so they come together, they arrive together, they pick it up together, and they pull together. So it's actually fairly simple for them. There they are. So that's how they bring it in. But now we're going to make it more difficult. Because the purpose of this experiment is to see how well they understand cooperation. Do they understand that as well as the chimps, for example?
在第一段錄影裏你會看到 兩隻大象一起被放出 來到裝置面前 裝置在畫面左邊 上面放著食物 它們同一時間被放出 一起到達 然後一起撿起繩子 一起拉動繩子 對它們來說 這其實相當簡單 它們做到了 它們就是這樣把裝置拉過來 現在我們要增加難度 因為這個實驗的目的是在於 找出大象對合作的理解程度 比如說 它們能不能達到跟黑猩猩一樣的理解程度
What we do in the next step is we release one elephant before the other and that elephant needs to be smart enough to stay there and wait and not pull at the rope -- because if he pulls at the rope, it disappears and the whole test is over. Now this elephant does something illegal that we did not teach it. But it shows the understanding he has, because he puts his big foot on the rope, stands on the rope and waits there for the other, and then the other is going to do all the work for him. So it's what we call freeloading.
我們的下一步是 先放其中一隻大象 如果這隻大象夠聰明的話 它會在那裏等 不會拉那繩子 因為如果他拉了 另一端會往後縮 實驗也就結束 現在 這隻大象犯規了 我們沒有教它這樣做 但是這顯示它明白 因為它踩著繩子的一端 就站在繩子上等另一隻大象過來 等另一隻大象幫它把東西拉過來 這就是我們所說的佔人家便宜
(Laughter)
(笑)
But it shows the intelligence that the elephants have. They developed several of these alternative techniques that we did not approve of, necessarily.
但是這顯示這隻大象很聰明 它們想出好幾種方法 我們不認為這些是有必要的
(Laughter)
現在另一隻大象也過來了
So the other elephant is now coming ... and is going to pull it in. Now look at the other; it doesn't forget to eat, of course.
準備要把東西拉過來 看另一隻 它當然不客氣地吃
(Laughter)
(笑)
This was the cooperation and reciprocity part.
這是合作、互惠的部分
Now something on empathy. Empathy is my main topic at the moment, of research. And empathy has two qualities: One is the understanding part of it. This is just a regular definition: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. And the emotional part. Empathy has basically two channels: One is the body channel, If you talk with a sad person, you're going to adopt a sad expression and a sad posture, and before you know it, you feel sad. And that's sort of the body channel of emotional empathy, which many animals have. Your average dog has that also. That's why people keep mammals in the home and not turtles or snakes or something like that, who don't have that kind of empathy. And then there's a cognitive channel, which is more that you can take the perspective of somebody else. And that's more limited. Very few animals, I think elephants and apes, can do that kind of thing.
再來 我們看同理心的部分 同理心是我現在的研究主題 同理心有二項特質 一項是理解 一個常見定義是 一種能了解他人感受的能力 另一項是情感 所以同理心基本上有兩種表達的方式 一個是身體上的 如果你和一個難過的人聊天 你的臉部表情、動作早就表現得很難過 比你真的感到難過還早 這可以說是用身體表現情感上的同理心 很多動物都懂得這個 一般家裏的狗也是 其實這就是為什麼人們會在家裏養哺乳類動物 而不是養烏龜、蛇等的動物 這些動物沒有這種同理心 另一個表達方式是認知 也就是感同身受的能力 這種能力就更少動物擁有了 只有少數動物能做到這一點 但我想大象和猿類可以做到
So synchronization, which is part of that whole empathy mechanism, is a very old one in the animal kingdom. In humans, of course, we can study that with yawn contagion. Humans yawn when others yawn. And it's related to empathy. It activates the same areas in the brain. Also, we know that people who have a lot of yawn contagion are highly empathic. People who have problems with empathy, such as autistic children, they don't have yawn contagion. So it is connected.
而同步化 是整個同理心機制的一部分 而且在動物界由來已久 我們也可以藉研究在人類確認這點 比如說打哈欠會傳染 人會因為別打哈欠而跟著打哈欠 這和同理心是有關的 兩者會刺激相同的大腦區域 而且 我們也知道 容易跟著別人打哈欠的人 具有高度同理心 沒辦法表現同理心的人 像患有自閉症的小孩 他們不會跟著別人打哈欠 兩者是有關聯的
And we study that in our chimpanzees by presenting them with an animated head. So that's what you see on the upper-left, an animated head that yawns. And there's a chimpanzee watching, an actual real chimpanzee watching a computer screen on which we play these animations.
為了研究這點,我們給黑猩猩看一個動畫頭像 這就是你在左上角看到的 這個動畫在打哈欠 這隻黑猩猩看著 真正的黑猩猩看著電腦螢幕 螢幕上正放著這動畫
(Laughter)
(笑)
So yawn contagion that you're probably all familiar with -- and maybe you're going to start yawning soon now -- is something that we share with other animals. And that's related to that whole body channel of synchronization that underlies empathy, and that is universal in the mammals, basically.
它跟著打哈欠 大家可能對這很熟悉 可能你等一下就開始打起哈欠 這機制是人類和一些動物共有的 這和身體同步化的方式有關 是同理心的基礎 是基本上所有哺乳類動物共有的
We also study more complex expressions -- This is consolation. This is a male chimpanzee who has lost a fight and he's screaming, and a juvenile comes over and puts an arm around him and calms him down. That's consolation. It's very similar to human consolation. And consolation behavior --
接下來我們可以研究一下更複雜的表達 安慰 這隻公黑猩猩剛打輸了 正在吼叫 這一隻少年黑猩猩靠過去 用一隻手抱著它 想讓它冷靜下來 這是安慰 和人類的安慰很相似 而安慰這行為
(Laughter)
是由同理心驅動的
it's empathy driven. Actually, the way to study empathy in human children is to instruct a family member to act distressed, and then to see what young children do. And so it is related to empathy, and that's the kind of expressions we look at.
事實上 要研究人類小孩的同理心 就讓小孩的家人表現得很憂傷 然後看小孩會怎麼反應 這和同理心有關 也就是我們想看到的 我們最近也發表了一個實驗 各位也許有聽過
We also recently published an experiment you may have heard about. It's on altruism and chimpanzees, where the question is: Do chimpanzees care about the welfare of somebody else? And for decades it had been assumed that only humans can do that, that only humans worry about the welfare of somebody else. Now we did a very simple experiment. We do that on chimpanzees that live in Lawrenceville, in the field station of Yerkes. And so that's how they live. And we call them into a room and do experiments with them. In this case, we put two chimpanzees side-by-side, and one has a bucket full of tokens, and the tokens have different meanings. One kind of token feeds only the partner who chooses, the other one feeds both of them.
是關於黑猩猩的利他行為 這裏有個問題 黑猩猩會在乎 其它個體的福祉嗎? 數十年來 大家都認為 只有人類會能做到 只有人類會在乎別人的福祉 我們做了一個很簡單的實驗 我們對勞倫斯維爾的猩猩做了這個實驗 在 耶克斯 的野外試驗站 它們是這樣生活的 我們把它們送進一個房間 開始做實驗 我們把兩隻黑猩猩隔壁放置 其中一隻有一個裝滿籌碼的籃子,這些籌碼代表不一樣的意思 其中一種籌碼 只分食物給選籌碼的黑猩猩 另一種則會給雙隻黑猩猩食物
So this is a study we did with Vicki Horner. And here, you have the two color tokens. So they have a whole bucket full of them. And they have to pick one of the two colors. You will see how that goes. So if this chimp makes the selfish choice, which is the red token in this case, he needs to give it to us, we pick it up, we put it on a table where there's two food rewards, but in this case, only the one on the right gets food. The one on the left walks away because she knows already that this is not a good test for her. Then the next one is the pro-social token.
這是我們和 維姬·霍納 一起所做的研究 這裏有二種顏色的籌碼 它們會有滿籃這些籌碼 它們必須從二種顏色裏挑一種 你會看到它們怎麼選擇 如果黑猩猩做了自私的選擇 也就像現在那樣 選了紅色籌碼 它要把籌碼交給我們 我們接過籌碼 把它放在桌上 那裡總共有二個食物要當獎品 在這情況下 只有右邊那隻黑猩猩得到食物 左邊那隻走開了 因為她知道結果了 這對她不算是個好的實驗 下一個是親社會的籌碼
So the one who makes the choices -- that's the interesting part here -- for the one who makes the choices, it doesn't really matter. So she gives us now a pro-social token and both chimps get fed. So the one who makes the choices always gets a reward. So it doesn't matter whatsoever. And she should actually be choosing blindly. But what we find is that they prefer the pro-social token. So this is the 50 percent line, that's the random expectation. And especially if the partner draws attention to itself, they choose more.
對於做選擇的黑猩猩 這裡是有趣的地方 對於做選擇的黑猩猩 其實沒什麼差別 她現在給我們一個親社會籌碼 所以兩隻黑猩猩都得到食物 所以做選擇的猩猩 不管怎樣都能得到獎勵 不管怎樣都沒差 她其實可以閉著眼睛亂選 不過我們發現 它們都偏好選親社會籌碼 這是50% 線,代表隨機期望值 當同伴注意它的時候 它們更會傾向選親社會
And if the partner puts pressure on them -- so if the partner starts spitting water and intimidating them -- then the choices go down.
但如果同伴對它施壓 像是吐水或威脅它的話 那親社會的選擇就會減少
(Laughter)
它們好像在說
It's as if they're saying, "If you're not behaving, I'm not going to be pro-social today." And this is what happens without a partner, when there's no partner sitting there. So we found that the chimpanzees do care about the well-being of somebody else -- especially, these are other members of their own group.
如果你不乖一點的話 我今天就不會親社會了啦 這會發生有沒有同伴的時候 當沒有同伴坐在旁邊 我們發現黑猩猩會在乎 其它個體的福祉 特別是對來自同一群體的成員
So the final experiment that I want to mention to you is our fairness study. And so this became a very famous study. And there are now many more, because after we did this about 10 years ago, it became very well-known. And we did that originally with capuchin monkeys. And I'm going to show you the first experiment that we did. It has now been done with dogs and with birds and with chimpanzees. But with Sarah Brosnan, we started out with capuchin monkeys.
接下來 我要談的今天最後一個實驗 是關於公平的研究 這研究後來變得很有名 現在多了很多類似的研究 因為大概在我們做了這研究後的 10 年之後 它變得相當出名 我們最初是用僧帽猴做這實驗的 而我現在要給你們看的是我們的第一次實驗 這實驗現在已經在狗、鳥類 以及黑猩猩身上做過了 但我們和 薩拉·布魯斯南 一開始是用卷尾猴做的
So what we did is we put two capuchin monkeys side-by-side. Again, these animals, live in a group, they know each other. We take them out of the group, put them in a test chamber. And there's a very simple task that they need to do. And if you give both of them cucumber for the task, the two monkeys side-by-side, they're perfectly willing to do this 25 times in a row. So cucumber, even though it's only really water in my opinion, but cucumber is perfectly fine for them. Now if you give the partner grapes -- the food preferences of my capuchin monkeys correspond exactly with the prices in the supermarket -- and so if you give them grapes -- it's a far better food -- then you create inequity between them. So that's the experiment we did.
我們 把兩隻僧帽猴隔壁而放 同樣的 這些動物來自同一族群的 而且彼此認識 我們把它們帶出族群 放在實驗室 接下來的責務非常簡單 它們就是需要做這個 而如果你給它們黃瓜作為完成責務的奬勵 對於這兩隻猴子 即使要它們連續做25次也很樂意 雖然我覺得黃瓜只不過是一些水而已 但是它們已經很滿意 接著 如果你給其中一隻葡萄作奬勵的話 葡萄是牠們偏好的食物 剛好跟在超市裡的標價一樣 所以如果你給它們葡萄 它們更喜愛的食物 這樣你就能在它們之間製造不平等 那就是我們所做的實驗
Recently, we videotaped it with new monkeys who'd never done the task, thinking that maybe they would have a stronger reaction, and that turned out to be right. The one on the left is the monkey who gets cucumber. The one on the right is the one who gets grapes. The one who gets cucumber -- note that the first piece of cucumber is perfectly fine. The first piece she eats. Then she sees the other one getting grape, and you will see what happens. So she gives a rock to us. That's the task. And we give her a piece of cucumber and she eats it. The other one needs to give a rock to us. And that's what she does. And she gets a grape ... and eats it. The other one sees that. She gives a rock to us now, gets, again, cucumber.
最近我們讓一群沒做過這實驗的猴子重做這實驗 然後錄了影 我們認為它們會有比較強烈的反應 我們猜對了 左邊的猴子會拿到黃瓜 右邊那隻是拿到葡萄的 拿到黃瓜的那隻猴子 你留意 她對第一片黃瓜很滿意 她吃了第一片 然後她發現另一隻猴子拿到葡萄 等一下你就會看到她的反應 她把石頭遞給我們 完成責務 然後我們給她一片黃瓜 她把黃瓜吃掉 另一隻也得要把石頭交給我們 她這麼做了 所以她拿到一顆葡萄並吃掉 另一隻看到了 她也給我們一顆石頭 但她還是只拿到黃瓜
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
(Laughter ends)
她把石頭放在牆上敲了幾下
She tests a rock now against the wall. She needs to give it to us. And she gets cucumber again.
她把石頭交給我們 但是她這次還是拿到黃瓜
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
So this is basically the Wall Street protest that you see here.
基本上你在這裡看到的就是華爾街的抗議活動了
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
(Applause)
(鼓掌)
I still have two minutes left -- let me tell you a funny story about this. This study became very famous and we got a lot of comments, especially anthropologists, economists, philosophers. They didn't like this at all. Because they had decided in their minds, I believe, that fairness is a very complex issue, and that animals cannot have it. And so one philosopher even wrote us that it was impossible that monkeys had a sense of fairness because fairness was invented during the French Revolution.
我要和大家說 我還有大概 2 分鐘 我要和大家說一個相關的有趣故事 這研究很有名 我們收到很多意見 特別是人類學家、經濟學家 還有哲學家 他們其實不甚麼喜歡這個 我想應該是因為他們認為 公平是一個很複雜的 所以動物不可能理解這個概念 有個哲學家甚至還寫信給我們說 猴子是不可能明白公平的概念 因為公平這概念是在法國大革命時才出現
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
And another one wrote a whole chapter saying that he would believe it had something to do with fairness, if the one who got grapes would refuse the grapes. Now the funny thing is that Sarah Brosnan, who's been doing this with chimpanzees, had a couple of combinations of chimpanzees where, indeed, the one who would get the grape would refuse the grape until the other guy also got a grape. So we're getting very close to the human sense of fairness. And I think philosophers need to rethink their philosophy for a while.
還有另一個寫很長一篇文章給我們 說他可以相信這和公平有關 要是拿到葡萄的那隻拒絕接受葡萄的話 有趣的是薩拉·布魯斯南 在黑猩猩身上做這個研究時 發現兩隻黑猩猩在有些情況下 拿到葡萄的那隻的確會拒絕接受 直到另一隻也拿到葡萄 這幾乎就是人類對公平的概念了 而我認為哲學家們應該要重新思考一下他們的哲學
So let me summarize. I believe there's an evolved morality. I think morality is much more than what I've been talking about, but it would be impossible without these ingredients that we find in other primates, which are empathy and consolation, pro-social tendencies and reciprocity and a sense of fairness. And so we work on these particular issues to see if we can create a morality from the bottom up, so to speak, without necessarily god and religion involved, and to see how we can get to an evolved morality.
讓我總結一下 我相信 道德是逐步形成的 我認為道德比我所說的這些還要複雜 但這些是道德的基本元素 我們在其它靈長類動物身上也發現這些元素 那就是同理心和安慰 親社會、互惠和公平的概念 所以我們研究這些特定的主題 試著由下而上地建構道德 而不需要上帝和宗教的參與 看看道德是怎樣發展的
And I thank you for your attention.
謝謝大家
(Applause)
(掌聲)