I was born in Den Bosch, where the painter Hieronymus Bosch named himself after. And I've always been very fond of this painter who lived and worked in the 15th century. And what is interesting about him in relation to morality is that he lived at a time where religion's influence was waning, and he was sort of wondering, I think, what would happen with society if there was no religion or if there was less religion. And so he painted this famous painting, "The Garden of Earthly Delights," which some have interpreted as being humanity before the Fall, or being humanity without any Fall at all. And so it makes you wonder, what would happen if we hadn't tasted the fruit of knowledge, so to speak, and what kind of morality would we have.
Nacín en Den Bosch onde o pintor Hieronymus Bosch tomou o seu nome por iso sempre me sentín moi preto del, que viviu e traballou no século XV. O interesante entre el e a moralidade é que viviu cando a influencia da relixión minguaba e foi unha persoa que se preguntaba que lle sucedería á sociedade se non houbese relixión ou se non a houbese. E por iso pintou o seu famoso cadro: "o Xardín das Delicias" que algúns interpretan como a humanidade antes da Caída, ou a humanidade sen ningunha Caída. E iso fai que nos preguntemos, que pasaría se non probaramos a froita da sabedoría, que tipo de moralidade teriamos?
Much later, as a student, I went to a very different garden, a zoological garden in Arnhem where we keep chimpanzees. This is me at an early age with a baby chimpanzee.
Máis tarde, como estudante, fun a un xardín moi diferente, un xardín zoolóxico en Arnhem onde viven chimpancés. Este son eu moi novo cun bebé chimpancé.
(Laughter)
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And I discovered there that the chimpanzees are very power-hungry and wrote a book about it. And at that time the focus in a lot of animal research was on aggression and competition. I painted a whole picture of the animal kingdom and humanity included, was that deep down we are competitors, we are aggressive, we are all out for our own profit, basically. This is the launch of my book. I'm not sure how well the chimpanzees read it, but they surely seemed interested in the book.
E alí descubrín que eles teñen fame de poder e escribín un libro sobre iso. Daquela a atención na investigación animal estaba na agresión e na competencia. Retratei unha imaxe do reino animal, e incluín a Humanidade, eramos no fondo competidores, agresivos, movémonos polo noso propio beneficio. Este é o inicio do meu libro. Non sei se os chimpacés o leron, mais pareceron interesados no libro.
(Laughter)
Durante o proceso
Now in the process of doing all this work on power and dominance and aggression and so on, I discovered that chimpanzees reconcile after fights. And so what you see here is two males who have had a fight. They ended up in a tree, and one of them holds out a hand to the other. And about a second after I took the picture, they came together in the fork of the tree and kissed and embraced each other.
todo este traballo sobre o poder a dominación, a agresión... descubrín que os chimpancés se reconcilian despois das liortas. O que ven aquí son dous machos que acaban de rifar. Rematan na copa da árbore, sostendo a man doutro. Segundos máis tarde fixen a foto, xuntos na galla da árbore bicándose e apertándose un a outro. Isto é moi interesante
And this is very interesting because at the time, everything was about competition and aggression, so it wouldn't make any sense. The only thing that matters is that you win or you lose. But why reconcile after a fight? That doesn't make any sense. This is the way bonobos do it. Bonobos do everything with sex. And so they also reconcile with sex. But the principle is exactly the same. The principle is that you have a valuable relationship that is damaged by conflict, so you need to do something about it. So my whole picture of the animal kingdom, and including humans also, started to change at that time.
porque daquela todo era arredor da competencia e da agresión, así que non tería sentido. O único que importa é se gañas ou perdes. Por que reconciliarse despois de rifar? Non ten sentido. Esta é a forma na que os bonobos o fan. Usan o sexo para todo. Así que tamén para se reconciliaren. Mais o principio é exactamente o mesmo. A máxima é que tes unha relación valiosa que está danada por un conflito, así que necesitas facer algo. Daquela a miña idea do reino animal, e inclúo tamén aos humanos, empezou a mudar naquela altura.
So we have this image in political science, economics, the humanities, the philosophy for that matter, that man is a wolf to man. And so deep down, our nature is actually nasty. I think it's a very unfair image for the wolf. The wolf is, after all, a very cooperative animal. And that's why many of you have a dog at home, which has all these characteristics also. And it's really unfair to humanity, because humanity is actually much more cooperative and empathic than given credit for. So I started getting interested in those issues and studying that in other animals.
Ben, temos esta imaxe en ciencias políticas, económicas, humanidades e filosofía, que o home é un lobo para o home. Así que o máis profundo da nosa natureza é noxenta. Eu creo que a imaxe é moi inxusta co lobo. O lobo é un animal moi cooperativo. Razón pola que teñen un can na casa, que ademais ten estas características. E é moi inxusto coa humanidade, porque a humanidade é sen dúbida moito máis cooperativa e empática do que se cre. Empecei a interesarme por eses temas e a estudalos noutros animais.
So these are the pillars of morality. If you ask anyone, "What is morality based on?" these are the two factors that always come out. One is reciprocity, and associated with it is a sense of justice and a sense of fairness. And the other one is empathy and compassion. And human morality is more than this, but if you would remove these two pillars, there would be not much remaining, I think. So they're absolutely essential.
Estes son os alicerces da moralidade. Se preguntas a alguén: "en que se basa a moralidade?" os dous factores que sempre aparecen son a reciprocidade, asociada a ela está a noción de xustiza e o senso de equidade. E a outra é a empatía e a compaixón. E a moralidade humana é máis ca isto, pero se retiran estes dous piares, non ficaría, creo, moito. Polo que son absolutamente esenciais.
So let me give you a few examples here. This is a very old video from the Yerkes Primate Center, where they trained chimpanzees to cooperate. So this is already about a hundred years ago that we were doing experiments on cooperation. What you have here is two young chimpanzees who have a box, and the box is too heavy for one chimp to pull in. And of course, there's food on the box. Otherwise they wouldn't be pulling so hard. And so they're bringing in the box. And you can see that they're synchronized. You can see that they work together, they pull at the same moment. It's already a big advance over many other animals who wouldn't be able to do that. Now you're going to get a more interesting picture, because now one of the two chimps has been fed. So one of the two is not really interested in the task anymore.
Permítanme aportarlles dous exemplos. Este vídeo vello do Yerkes Primate Center onde adestraban chimpacés para cooperar. Aproximadamente hai uns cen anos que estamos a facer experimentos sobre a cooperación. O que teñen aquí son dous chimpacés novos que teñen unha caixa, a caixa é demasiado pesada para que un chimpancé turra só dela. Por suposto, dentro da caixa hai comida, senón non turrarían tan forte. Aquí vémolos turrando da caixa. E poden observar que están sincronizados. Poden ver que traballan xuntos, turran ao mesmo tempo. É un gran avance con respecto a outros animais incapaces de facer tal cousa. Agora temos unha imaxe máis interesante, porque un dos chimpancés recibe comida. Aquí un dos dous xa non quere colaborar no asunto
(Laughter)
(Risas)
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[- and sometimes appears to convey its wishes and meanings by gestures.] Now look at what happens at the very end of this.
Agora ollen o que pasa ao final.
(Laughter)
(Risas)
He takes basically everything.
Adónase basicamente de todo.
(Laughter)
(Risas)
There are two interesting parts about this. One is that the chimp on the right has a full understanding he needs the partner -- so a full understanding of the need for cooperation. The second one is that the partner is willing to work even though he's not interested in the food. Why would that be? Well, that probably has to do with reciprocity. There's actually a lot of evidence in primates and other animals that they return favors. He will get a return favor at some point in the future. And so that's how this all operates.
Hai dúas cousas interesantes aquí. Un é que o chimpacé da dereita entende que necesita un parceiro, e entende que necesita cooperación. O segundo ten intención de traballar aínda que non está interesado na comida. Poida que teña que ver coa reciprocidade. Hai evidencias en primates e outros animais que devolven os favores. Conseguirá que lle devolva o favor máis adiante. Así como todo isto funciona.
We do the same task with elephants. Now, it's very dangerous to work with elephants. Another problem with elephants is that you cannot make an apparatus that is too heavy for a single elephant. Now you can probably make it, but it's going to be a pretty clumsy apparatus, I think. And so what we did in that case -- we do these studies in Thailand for Josh Plotnik -- is we have an apparatus around which there is a rope, a single rope. And if you pull on this side of the rope, the rope disappears on the other side. So two elephants need to pick it up at exactly the same time, and pull. Otherwise nothing is going to happen and the rope disappears.
Fixemos o mesmo con elefantes. É moi perigoso traballarmos con elefantes. Outro problema con eles é que non podes facer aparatos xa que son demasiado pesados. Agora podes probablemente facelo, mais acho que será un trebello moi fráxil. Así que o que fixemos nesta ocasión foi levar adiante estes estudos en Tailandia por Josh Plotnik e facer un aparato circular que ten unha única corda e se turras deste lado da corda, a corda desaparece doutro lado. Dous elefantes teñen que turraren delas á vez. Se non o fan nada sucederá e a corda desaparece.
The first tape you're going to see is two elephants who are released together arrive at the apparatus. The apparatus is on the left, with food on it. And so they come together, they arrive together, they pick it up together, and they pull together. So it's actually fairly simple for them. There they are. So that's how they bring it in. But now we're going to make it more difficult. Because the purpose of this experiment is to see how well they understand cooperation. Do they understand that as well as the chimps, for example?
Na primeira gravación que van ver hai dous elefantes que ceibamos a un tempo e chegan até o trebello. O aparato está á esquerda con comida. Van xuntos, chegan xuntos. Recollen e turran xuntos pola corda. Para eles é algo moi sinxelo. Velaquí. E así é como o traen. Mais agora ímolo facer máis difícil. Porque o propósito deste experimento é saber o ben que entenden a cooperación. Enténdena tan ben como os chimpancés, por exemplo?
What we do in the next step is we release one elephant before the other and that elephant needs to be smart enough to stay there and wait and not pull at the rope -- because if he pulls at the rope, it disappears and the whole test is over. Now this elephant does something illegal that we did not teach it. But it shows the understanding he has, because he puts his big foot on the rope, stands on the rope and waits there for the other, and then the other is going to do all the work for him. So it's what we call freeloading.
O noso seguinte paso é ceibar un elefante antes ca o outro, e ese elefante necesita ser intelixente para ficar alí e agardar sen turrar porque se turra, desaparece e todo o experimento remata. Agora este elefante fai algo ilegal que nós non lle ensinamos. Mais explica o entendemento que ten, porque pon a súa pata sobre a corda, fica sobre ela e espera até que o outro chega, así o outro fará todo o traballo por el. Iso é que chamamos "a sopa boba".
(Laughter)
(Risas)
But it shows the intelligence that the elephants have. They developed several of these alternative techniques that we did not approve of, necessarily.
Isto amosa a intelixencia que teñen. Desenvolven varias destas técnicas alternativas que non aprobamos necesariamente.
(Laughter)
Agora o outro elefante aparece
So the other elephant is now coming ... and is going to pull it in. Now look at the other; it doesn't forget to eat, of course.
e disponse a turrar da corda Agora olla ao outro. O outro non se esquece de comer.
(Laughter)
(Risas)
This was the cooperation and reciprocity part.
Esta foi a cooperación, a reciprocidade.
Now something on empathy. Empathy is my main topic at the moment, of research. And empathy has two qualities: One is the understanding part of it. This is just a regular definition: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. And the emotional part. Empathy has basically two channels: One is the body channel, If you talk with a sad person, you're going to adopt a sad expression and a sad posture, and before you know it, you feel sad. And that's sort of the body channel of emotional empathy, which many animals have. Your average dog has that also. That's why people keep mammals in the home and not turtles or snakes or something like that, who don't have that kind of empathy. And then there's a cognitive channel, which is more that you can take the perspective of somebody else. And that's more limited. Very few animals, I think elephants and apes, can do that kind of thing.
Agora algo sobre a empatía. A empatía é a miña especialidade- A empatía ten dúas cualidades. Unha é entender ao outro. A definición habitual é a abilidade de entender e compartir os sentimentos. E a parte emocional. A empatía basicamente ten dúas canles. Unha é o corpo como canle. Se falas cunha persoa triste, adoptarás unha expresión e postura triste, e antes de que o saibas. Esa é a canle corporal da empatía emocional que teñen os animais. O voso can tamén a ten. Razón pola que temos mamíferos nas casas e non tartarugas ou cobras ou cousas que non teñen esa clase de empatía. E temos tamén a canle cognitiva. que é máis que captar a perspectiva doutro e iso é máis limitado. Hai poucos animais quen de facelo. Os elefantes e primates poden.
So synchronization, which is part of that whole empathy mechanism, is a very old one in the animal kingdom. In humans, of course, we can study that with yawn contagion. Humans yawn when others yawn. And it's related to empathy. It activates the same areas in the brain. Also, we know that people who have a lot of yawn contagion are highly empathic. People who have problems with empathy, such as autistic children, they don't have yawn contagion. So it is connected.
A sincronización, que é unha parte do mecanismo da empatía é moi antiga no reino animal. e en humanos podemos estudala co bocexo contaxioso. Os humanos bocexamos cando outros bocexan. e está relacionado coa empatía. Activa a mesma área do cerebro. Sabemos que quen ten o bocexo contaxioso é moi empáticos. Por exemplo, os nenos autistas non teñen bocexo contaxioso. Así que hai unha conexión.
And we study that in our chimpanzees by presenting them with an animated head. So that's what you see on the upper-left, an animated head that yawns. And there's a chimpanzee watching, an actual real chimpanzee watching a computer screen on which we play these animations.
E o estudamos nos chimpances poñéndoos ante unha cabeza animada. O que se ve na esquina superior esquerda é unha cabeza animada que bocexa e hai un chimpacé ollando, un chimpancé de carne e óso que olla unha pantalla sobre o que se ven estas animacións.
(Laughter)
(Risas)
So yawn contagion that you're probably all familiar with -- and maybe you're going to start yawning soon now -- is something that we share with other animals. And that's related to that whole body channel of synchronization that underlies empathy, and that is universal in the mammals, basically.
Bocexar é contaxioso algo co que estamos familiarizados. E se cadra vós comezan a bocexar axiña. É algo que compartimos con outros animais e está relacionado co canal corporal da sincronización que está á súa vez relacionado coa empatía e que é universal entre os mamíferos.
We also study more complex expressions -- This is consolation. This is a male chimpanzee who has lost a fight and he's screaming, and a juvenile comes over and puts an arm around him and calms him down. That's consolation. It's very similar to human consolation. And consolation behavior --
Ademais estudamos expresións máis complexas. O consolo. Este é un chimpacé macho que rifou e está berrando, e un novo achégase e rodéao co seu brazo e acóugao. Iso é o consolo. É moi semellante ao consolo humano. E o comportamento do consolo
(Laughter)
está impulsado pola empatía.
it's empathy driven. Actually, the way to study empathy in human children is to instruct a family member to act distressed, and then to see what young children do. And so it is related to empathy, and that's the kind of expressions we look at.
Hoxe se estuda a empatía nos nenos facendo que un membro da familia actúe angustiado e así ven que fan. E iso está relacionado coa empatía, e ese é o tipo de expresión que vemos. Hai pouco publicamos un experimento
We also recently published an experiment you may have heard about. It's on altruism and chimpanzees, where the question is: Do chimpanzees care about the welfare of somebody else? And for decades it had been assumed that only humans can do that, that only humans worry about the welfare of somebody else. Now we did a very simple experiment. We do that on chimpanzees that live in Lawrenceville, in the field station of Yerkes. And so that's how they live. And we call them into a room and do experiments with them. In this case, we put two chimpanzees side-by-side, and one has a bucket full of tokens, and the tokens have different meanings. One kind of token feeds only the partner who chooses, the other one feeds both of them.
sobre o altruísmo e os chimpacés e pregúntase: preocúpanse os chimpancés sobre o benestar doutro? Durante décadas asumimos que só o podemos facer os humanos, que só os humanos nos preocupamos do benestar dos demais. Fixemos un experimento moi sinxelo. Fixémolo con chimpancés que viven en Lawrenceville, nunha estación de campo en Yerkes. E así é como viven. Chamámolos para que entren nun cuarto e experimentamos con eles Neste caso, poñemos un a carón doutro. Un ten unha bolsa con fichas, as pezas teñen diferentes sensos. Unha das fichas alimenta só ao parceiro que escolle, a outro alimenta a ámbolos dous.
So this is a study we did with Vicki Horner. And here, you have the two color tokens. So they have a whole bucket full of them. And they have to pick one of the two colors. You will see how that goes. So if this chimp makes the selfish choice, which is the red token in this case, he needs to give it to us, we pick it up, we put it on a table where there's two food rewards, but in this case, only the one on the right gets food. The one on the left walks away because she knows already that this is not a good test for her. Then the next one is the pro-social token.
Este é un estudo que fixemos con Vicky Horner. Aquí tedes as fichas de dúas cores. Así que teñen unha bolsa enteira delas. E teñen que escoller unha entre as dúas cores. Agora veredes como funciona. Se este chimpancé fai a escolla egoísta, que é neste caso a ficha vermella, necesita devolvérnola. Nós poñémola sobre a mesa onde hai dúas recompensas, neste caso só o da dereita obtén comida. A que está á dereita marcha porque xa sabe que este non é un bo resultado para ela. Entón o próximo é a ficha pro-social.
So the one who makes the choices -- that's the interesting part here -- for the one who makes the choices, it doesn't really matter. So she gives us now a pro-social token and both chimps get fed. So the one who makes the choices always gets a reward. So it doesn't matter whatsoever. And she should actually be choosing blindly. But what we find is that they prefer the pro-social token. So this is the 50 percent line, that's the random expectation. And especially if the partner draws attention to itself, they choose more.
Aquel que escolle, esa é a parte interesante, para quen escolle, non ten neste caso importancia. Así que entrega unha ficha pro-social e ambos reciben comida. O que escolle sempre obtén unha recompensa. polo que quen escolla non ten relevancia. E ela debería entón escoller a cegas. Mais o que nos atopamos é que prefiren a ficha pro-social. Esta é a liña cincuenta por cento que é o esperable no azar. Se o compañeiro atrae a atención sobre el escollen máis,
And if the partner puts pressure on them -- so if the partner starts spitting water and intimidating them -- then the choices go down.
e tamén se o compañeiro lles mete presión. Se o compañeiro comeza a cuspir e intimidalos entón diminúen as escollas.
(Laughter)
É como se dixesen,
It's as if they're saying, "If you're not behaving, I'm not going to be pro-social today." And this is what happens without a partner, when there's no partner sitting there. So we found that the chimpanzees do care about the well-being of somebody else -- especially, these are other members of their own group.
"se non te comportas non serei pro-social" E isto é o que pasa sen compañeiro, cando non hai un parceiro sentado aí. Agora sabemos que os chimpacés se preocupan de que os demais estean ben especialmente, se son membros do seu mesmo grupo.
So the final experiment that I want to mention to you is our fairness study. And so this became a very famous study. And there are now many more, because after we did this about 10 years ago, it became very well-known. And we did that originally with capuchin monkeys. And I'm going to show you the first experiment that we did. It has now been done with dogs and with birds and with chimpanzees. But with Sarah Brosnan, we started out with capuchin monkeys.
O experimento final que quero expoñer é o noso estudo sobre a equidade. Esto chegou a ser un estudo moi famoso. Agora hai moitos máis, despois de facermos isto hai dez anos, chegou a ser moi coñecido. O primeiro foi con monos capuchinos. Vou amosarlles o noso experimento. Foi feito con cans e paxaros e con chimpacés. Mais con Sarah Brosnan empezamos con monos capuchinos.
So what we did is we put two capuchin monkeys side-by-side. Again, these animals, live in a group, they know each other. We take them out of the group, put them in a test chamber. And there's a very simple task that they need to do. And if you give both of them cucumber for the task, the two monkeys side-by-side, they're perfectly willing to do this 25 times in a row. So cucumber, even though it's only really water in my opinion, but cucumber is perfectly fine for them. Now if you give the partner grapes -- the food preferences of my capuchin monkeys correspond exactly with the prices in the supermarket -- and so if you give them grapes -- it's a far better food -- then you create inequity between them. So that's the experiment we did.
Así que o que fixemos foi poñer dous capuchinos cóbado con cóbado. Viven en grupo e coñécense entre eles. Tirámolos do grupo e puxémolos nunha cámara de experimentación. E hai unha tarefa moi simple que necesitan facer. Se lle dan aos dous cogombro para faceren a tarefa, os dous monos un a carón doutro, son capaces de facelo 25 veces seguidas. Así que o cogombro, que para min non é máis que auga, para eles é algo estupendo. Agora se lle dan uvas ao compañeiro, a comida preferida dos capuchinos, corresponde exactamente cos prezos no supermercado polo tanto se lle dan uvas, unha comida moito mellor entón crean desigualdade entre eles. Ben este é o experimento que fixemos.
Recently, we videotaped it with new monkeys who'd never done the task, thinking that maybe they would have a stronger reaction, and that turned out to be right. The one on the left is the monkey who gets cucumber. The one on the right is the one who gets grapes. The one who gets cucumber -- note that the first piece of cucumber is perfectly fine. The first piece she eats. Then she sees the other one getting grape, and you will see what happens. So she gives a rock to us. That's the task. And we give her a piece of cucumber and she eats it. The other one needs to give a rock to us. And that's what she does. And she gets a grape ... and eats it. The other one sees that. She gives a rock to us now, gets, again, cucumber.
Hai pouco gravámolo con novos monos que non fixeran esta tarefa pensando que reaccionarían máis forte e tiñamos razón. O da esquerda é o que recibe o cogombro. O da dereita recibe uvas. O que recibe cogombro, vexan como a primeira peza está ben. O primeiro anaco o come. Agora o outro recibe unha uva, verán que lle sucede. Entréganos unha pedra. Esa é a tarefa. E nós dámoslles un anaco de cogombro e o comen. O outro debe darnos unha pedra e así o fai. E ela consegue unha uva e a come. O outro observa. Dános unha pedra e recibe, outra vez, cogombro.
(Laughter)
(Risas)
(Laughter ends)
Proba a pedra contra a parede.
She tests a rock now against the wall. She needs to give it to us. And she gets cucumber again.
Ten que entregárnola. E recibe cogombro outra vez.
(Laughter)
(Risas)
So this is basically the Wall Street protest that you see here.
O que aquí vemos é a protesta contra Wall Street.
(Laughter)
(Risas)
(Applause)
(Aplauso)
I still have two minutes left -- let me tell you a funny story about this. This study became very famous and we got a lot of comments, especially anthropologists, economists, philosophers. They didn't like this at all. Because they had decided in their minds, I believe, that fairness is a very complex issue, and that animals cannot have it. And so one philosopher even wrote us that it was impossible that monkeys had a sense of fairness because fairness was invented during the French Revolution.
Permítanme, permítanme contar unha historia graciosa. Este estudo chegou a ser moi famoso e recibimos moitos comentarios, en concreto de antropólogos, economistas, filósofos. Non lles gustou en absoluto. Porque dicidiran nas súas mentes, creo, que a equidade é un asunto moi complexo e que os animais non a teñen. Incluso un filósofo escribiunos que é imposible que un mono teña a noción da equidade porque a equidade foi inventada durante a Revolución Francesa.
(Laughter)
(Risas)
And another one wrote a whole chapter saying that he would believe it had something to do with fairness, if the one who got grapes would refuse the grapes. Now the funny thing is that Sarah Brosnan, who's been doing this with chimpanzees, had a couple of combinations of chimpanzees where, indeed, the one who would get the grape would refuse the grape until the other guy also got a grape. So we're getting very close to the human sense of fairness. And I think philosophers need to rethink their philosophy for a while.
Outro escribiu un capítulo enteiro dicindo que crería que todo isto tiña algo que ver coa equidade se o que obtiña as uvas renunciase a elas. Agora o chiste esta en que Sarah Brosnan, que leva fai isto mesmo con chimpancés, tiña unha parella de combinacións deles onde, sen dúbida, aquel que recibía a uva refugábaa até que o seu compañeiro obtivese unha. Aquí nos achegamos moito á noción humana de equidade. Acho que os filósofos necesitan repensar a súa filosofía durante un momento.
So let me summarize. I believe there's an evolved morality. I think morality is much more than what I've been talking about, but it would be impossible without these ingredients that we find in other primates, which are empathy and consolation, pro-social tendencies and reciprocity and a sense of fairness. And so we work on these particular issues to see if we can create a morality from the bottom up, so to speak, without necessarily god and religion involved, and to see how we can get to an evolved morality.
Resumindo, coido que hai unha moralidade evolutiva. e que é moito máis do que levamos falado, mais sería imposible sen estes ingredientes que atopamos noutros primates, que son a empatía e o consolo, as tendencias pro-sociais, a reciprocidade e a noción de xustiza. Traballamos para ver se podemos crear unha moralidade de abaixo a arriba sen implicar a Deus e a relixión, e ver como podemos chegar até unha moralidade evolutiva
And I thank you for your attention.
Grazas pola súa atención.
(Applause)
(Aplausos)