Hi. I've received hate online. A lot of it. And it comes with the territory of my work. I'm a digital creator, I make things specifically for the internet. Like, a few years ago, I made a video series called "Every Single Word" where I edited down popular films to only the words spoken by people of color, as a way to empirically and accessibly talk about the issue of representation in Hollywood. Then, later, as transphobic bathroom bill started gaining media attention around the United States, I hosted and produced an interview series called "Sitting in Bathrooms with Trans People" where I did exactly that.
嗨。 我在網上常常會收到仇恨。 很多的仇恨。 這和我工作的領域有關。 我是數位創作者, 我專門為網路製做東西。 比如,幾年前,我做了一系列 影片,叫做《每一個字》, 我把熱門電影拿來編輯, 縮減成由有色人種說出的幾個字, 這是種憑經驗且可以獲得的方式, 目的是在談好萊塢的人種比例問題。 後來,在跨性別恐懼的廁所法案 開始得到美國媒體的注意力, 我主持並製作了一系列的訪談, 叫做《和變性人坐在廁所裡》, 在節目中我真的這麼做。
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
And then -- Sure, I'll take applause.
接著── 當然,我接受掌聲。
(Applause)
(掌聲)
Thank you. And then, are you familiar with those unboxing videos on YouTube where YouTubers open up the latest electronic gadgets? Great, so I satirized those in a weekly series, where instead I unboxed intangible ideologies like police brutality, masculinity and the mistreatment of Native Americans.
謝謝。 接著,你們熟不熟悉在 YouTube 上的那些開箱影片, 使用者會拆封他們買來的 最新電子小玩意兒? 好極了,所以我用 每週一集的節目來諷刺那些影片, 在節目中,我針對無形的 意識型態做「閉箱」, 比如警察行兇、男子氣概, 以及對美國原住民的不當對待。
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
My work -- Thanks. One person applauding, God bless.
我的作品── 謝謝。 有一個人鼓掌,上帝保祐。
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
Mom, hi.
老媽,嗨。
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
So, my work became popular. Very popular. I got millions of views, a ton of great press and a slew of new followers. But the flip side of success on the internet is internet hate. I was called everything. From "beta" to "snowflake" and, of course, the ever-popular "cuck." Don't worry, I will break these terms down for you.
所以,我的作品變熱門了。 非常熱門。 我的點閱率上百萬, 一大堆好的新聞輿論, 還有許多新的粉絲。 但在網路上,成功的另一面, 就是網路仇恨。 我得到各種稱號。 從「β」到「雪花」,當然, 還有最熱門的「綠帽」。 別擔心,我會為各位解說這些詞。
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
So, "beta," for those of you unfamiliar, is shorthand online lingo for "beta male." But let's be real, I wear pearl earrings and my fashion aesthetic is rich-white-woman-running-errands, so I'm not angling to be an alpha.
所以,「β」,如果你不熟悉, 是網路行話「β男(沒種男)」的簡稱。 但讓我們務實點,我戴珍珠耳環, 我的時尚美感是有錢白人女性跑腿, 所以我沒有想走 α (王者)路線。
(Applause)
(掌聲)
Doesn't totally work.
想當也當不了。
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
Now, "snowflake" is a put-down for people who are sensitive and believe themselves to be unique, and I'm a millennial and an only child, so, duh!
「雪花」是個貶詞, 用在敏感且相信自己 獨一無二的人身上, 而我是千禧世代, 又是獨子,所以,咄!
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
But my favorite, favorite, favorite is "cuck." It's a slur, short for "cuckold," for men who have been cheated on by their wives. But friends, I am so gay, that if I had a wife, I would encourage her to cheat on me.
但我最愛最愛最愛的就是「綠帽」。 它是種侮辱,妻子不貞的意思, 指的是被妻子戴綠帽的男人。 但朋友們,我這麼同性戀, 如果我有個妻子, 我會鼓勵她對我不貞。
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
Thank you. Let's take a look at some of this negativity in action. Sometimes it's direct. Like Marcos, who wrote, "You're everything I hate in a human being." Thank you, Marcos. Others are more concise. Like Donovan, who wrote, "gaywad fagggggg." Now, I do need to point out, Donovan is not wrong, OK? In fact, he's right on both counts, so credit where credit is due. Thank you, Donovan. Others write to me with questions, like Brian, who asked, "Were you born a bitch or did you just learn to be one over time?" But my favorite thing about this is that once Brian was done typing, his finger must have slipped because then he sent me the thumbs-up emoji.
謝謝。 讓我們來看看一些負面的實例。 有時候,是很直接的。 像馬可,他寫: 「你具有一切我痛恨的人類特質。」 謝謝你,馬可。 其他人比較簡明。 比如唐納文,他寫: 「同性戀,娘炮~~~」 我必須要指出, 唐納文並沒有錯。好嗎? 他兩點都說對了, 對該讚賞的人要加以稱許。 謝謝你,唐納文。 其他人會寫問題給我, 像布萊恩,他問: 「你天生就是個賤人, 或是你是隨時間學來的?」 對這一則,我最喜歡的部分是, 布萊恩打完字之後, 一定是手指滑了一下, 因為他發了一個「讚」符號給我。
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
So, babe, thumbs up to you, too.
所以,寶貝,也給你一個讚。
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
It's fun to talk about these messages now. Right? And it's cathartic to laugh at them. But I can tell you that it really does not feel good to receive them. At first, I would screenshot their comments and make fun of their typos, but this soon felt elitist and ultimately unhelpful. So over time, I developed an unexpected coping mechanism.
現在談這些訊息是很有趣。 對嗎? 笑笑它們有宣泄作用的。 但我可以告訴各位, 收到的時候感覺並不好。 一開始,我會把 他們的訊息截圖下來, 嘲笑他們打錯的字, 但這做法很快就像自我感覺良好, 最終就變得沒幫助了。 所以,隨時間過去,我想出了 一種未預期的因應機制。
Because most of these messages I received were through social media, I could often click on the profile picture of the person who sent them and learn everything about them. I could see pictures they were tagged in, posts they'd written, memes they'd shared, and somehow, seeing that it was a human on the other side of the screen made me feel a little better. Not to justify what they wrote, right? But just to provide context. Still, that didn't feel like enough. So, I called some of them -- only the ones I felt safe talking to -- with a simple opening question: "Why did you write that?"
因為我收到的這些訊息, 大多來自社交媒體, 我通常可以點選發訊息的人 去看他們的資料, 去了解他們的一切。 我可以看見有標註他們的照片、 他們發的文、他們分享的網路模因, 不知怎麼的,知道 螢幕的另一端也是一個人類, 會讓我感覺好一點。 這並不能將他們 寫的訊息正當化,對吧? 但能提供情境。 不過,那樣我仍然覺得不夠。 所以,我打電話給其中一些人── 前提是我覺得跟他們 談話是安全的── 我開場用的是一個簡單的問題: 「你為什麼要這樣寫?」
The first person I spoke to was Josh. He had written to tell me that I was a moron, I was a reason this country was dividing itself, and he added at the end that being gay was a sin. I was so nervous for our first conversation. This wasn't a comments section. So I couldn't use tools like muting or blocking. Of course, I guess, I could have hung up on him. But I didn't want to. Because I liked talking to him. Because I liked him. Here's a clip of one of our conversations.
我交談的第一個對象是喬許。 他寫訊息來告訴我,說我是白痴, 說我是這個國家分裂的原因, 他最後還補上一句,同性戀是原罪。 對我們的第一次交談,我好緊張。 這並不是留言。 所以我無法使用工具, 像是靜音或是封鎖。 當然,我想我可以掛斷通話。 但我不想這麼做。 因為我想要和他談談。 因為我喜歡他。 這是我們其中一次交談的片段。
(Audio) Dylan Marron: Josh, you said you're about to graduate high school, right?
(語音)狄倫馬里昂:喬許,你說 你就要從高中畢業了,對吧?
Josh: Mmm-hmm.
喬許:嗯哼。
DM: How is high school for you?
狄:你覺得高中如何?
Josh: Am I allowed to use the H-E-double-hockey-stick word?
喬許:我能使用「地獄」 這詞來形容嗎?
DM: Oh, yeah. You're allowed to.
狄:喔,可以,你可以用。
Josh: It was hell.
喬:高中和地獄一樣。
DM: Really?
狄:真的?
Josh: And it's still hell right now, even though it's only two weeks left. I'm a little bit bigger -- I don't like to use the word "fat," but I am a little bit bigger than a lot of my classmates and they seem to judge me before they even got to know me.
喬:現在還是地獄, 雖然只剩下兩週。 我比較大──我不想用「胖」這個字, 但我比我的同學都大一點, 他們似乎會在了解我之前就評斷我。
DM: That's awful. I mean, I also just want to let you know, Josh, I was bullied in high school, too. So did our common ground of being bullied in high school erase what he wrote me? No. And did our single phone conversation radically heal a politically divided country and cure systemic injustice? No, absolutely not, right? But did our conversation humanize us to each other more than profile pictures and posts ever could? Absolutely. I didn't stop there. Because some of the hate I received was from "my side." So when Matthew, a queer liberal artist like me publicly wrote that I represented some of the worst aspects of liberalism, I wanted to ask him this.
狄:那好糟。 我的意思是, 我只想讓你知道,喬許, 我在高中也被霸凌過。 所以,我們都在高中被霸凌的共通點 能抹除他寫給我的訊息嗎? 不能。 我們通過電話做一次交談, 能徹底治癒一個 在政治上分裂的國家, 並治好體制上的不公正嗎? 不能,絕對不能,是吧? 但我們的交談是否比大頭照和貼文 更讓我們覺得彼此其實都是人? 絕對是。 我並沒有就這樣停下來。 因為我收到的仇恨中, 有些是來自「我這一方」的。 當馬修,像我一樣的 酷兒自由派藝術家, 公開寫說我代表的是 自由主義最糟的面向, 我想要問他這件事。
DM: You tagged me in this post. Did you want me to see it?
狄:你在這篇文章中標註了我。 你是想要我讀它嗎?
Matthew (Laughing): I honestly didn't think that you would.
馬修(笑聲):老實說, 我不覺得你會來看。
DM: Have you ever been publicly dragged?
狄:你可曾被公開羞辱過嗎?
Matthew: I have been. And I just said, "No, I don't care."
馬:有的。 我只會說:「不,我不在乎。」
DM: And did you not care?
狄:你不在乎嗎?
Matthew: But it was hard.
馬:但蠻艱難的。
DM: Did you not care?
狄:你不在乎嗎?
Matthew: Oh, I cared, yes.
馬:喔,我在乎,是的。
DM: At the end of these conversations, there's often a moment of reflection. A reconsideration. And that's exactly what happened at the end of my call with a guy named Doug who had written that I was a talentless propaganda hack.
狄:在這類對談的最後, 通常都會有反省的時刻。 做些重新考量。 後來這也的確發生了, 就發生在我和道格通話的最後, 道格是寫說我是 沒才華的三流宣傳記者。
(Audio) Did the conversation we just had -- does it, like, make you feel differently about how you write online?
(語音)我們剛剛的這段談話── 它是否讓你對於在網路上 要如何發言有不同的感受?
Doug: Yeah! You know, when I said this to you, when I said you were a "talentless hack," I had never conversed with you in my life, really. I didn't really know anything really about you. And I think that a lot of times, that's what the comment sections really are, it's really a way to get your anger at the world out on random profiles of strangers, pretty much.
道:是啊!當我對你說這些話, 當我說你是「沒才華的三流記者」, 我從來沒有和你真正交談過。 我其實對你完全一無所知。 我想,很多時候, 留言就是這樣子的, 它是一種把你對世界的 不滿發洩出來的方式, 對隨機的陌生人發洩, 大致上是這樣。
DM (Laughing): Yeah, right.
狄(笑聲):是啊,對的。
Doug: But it definitely has made me rethink the way that I interact with people online.
道:但這的確讓我重新思考, 思考我和大家在線上互動的方式。
DM: So I've collected these conversations and many others for my podcast "Conversations with People Who Hate Me."
狄:所以,我收集了這些對談, 還有許多其他的, 給我的播客節目 《和恨我的人對談》使用。
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
Before I started this project, I thought that the real way to bring about change was to shut down opposing viewpoints through epically worded video essays and comments and posts, but I soon learned those were only cheered on by the people who already agreed with me. Sometimes -- bless you. Sometimes, the most subversive thing you could do -- yeah, clap for him.
在我開始這項計畫之前, 我以為,要帶來改變的真正方式, 是要讓相反的觀點都閉嘴, 通過用史詩般措辭的視頻、 文章、評論和帖子, 但我很快學到,那樣做只會取悅 本來就已經認同我的人。 有時──祝福你。 有時,你所能做的最顛覆的事── 是啊,為他拍手。
(Laughter)
(笑聲)
Sometimes, the most subversive thing you could do was to actually speak with the people you disagreed with, and not simply at them.
有時,你所能做的最顛覆的事, 就是真的去和你不認同的人交談, 而不是僅僅去反駁他們。
Now in every one of my calls, I always ask my guests to tell me about themselves. And it's their answer to this question that allows me to empathize with them. And empathy, it turns out, is a key ingredient in getting these conversations off the ground, but it can feel very vulnerable to be empathizing with someone you profoundly disagree with. So I established a helpful mantra for myself. Empathy is not endorsement. Empathizing with someone you profoundly disagree with does not suddenly compromise your own deeply held beliefs and endorse theirs. Empathizing with someone who, for example, believes that being gay is a sin doesn't mean that I'm suddenly going to drop everything, pack my bags and grab my one-way ticket to hell, right? It just means that I'm acknowledging the humanity of someone who was raised to think very differently from me. I also want to be super clear about something. This is not a prescription for activism. I understand that some people don't feel safe talking to their detractors and others feel so marginalized that they justifiably don't feel that they have any empathy to give. I totally get that. This is just what I feel well-suited to do.
在我的每一次通話中, 我總是請來賓告訴我他們自己的事。 當他們開始回答這個問題時, 我就能夠同理他們。 結果發現,同理心, 就是讓這些對談能夠 順利進行的關鍵元素, 但去同情你非常不同意的人, 感覺起來是很脆弱的。 所以我為自己打造一句有助的真言: 「同理並不代表認可」。 同理你非常不同意的人, 並不是突然妥協你自己深刻的信念, 改為認可他們。 比如,同理一個 相信同性戀是原罪的人, 並不表示我突然就會拋下一切, 打包東西,拿著通往地獄的 單程票準備出發,對吧? 那只意味著,我承認 和我有非常不同想法的人也是人。 我也想要把一件事澄清清楚。 這並不是治療激進主義的處方。 我了解有些人覺得和誹謗他們的人 談話是不安全的, 其他人則覺得被邊緣化, 他們有正當理由可以認為 他們不用同理別人。 我完全了解這心情。 這做法只是我個人覺得很適合做的。
You know, I've reached out to a lot of people for this podcast. And some have politely declined, others have read my message and ignored it, some have blocked me automatically when I sent the invitation and one guy actually agreed to do it and then, five minutes into the call, hung up on me.
我為了這個播客節目接觸了很多人。 有些人很禮貌地拒絕了, 其他人對我的訊息則是已讀不回, 有些人收到我的邀請時 就自動把我封鎖, 還有一個人,他同意要交談, 在通話的五分鐘之後, 就把我掛斷了。
I'm also aware that this talk will appear on the internet. And with the internet comes comment sections, and with comment sections inevitably comes hate. So as you are watching this talk, you can feel free to call me whatever you'd like. You can call me a "gaywad," a "snowflake," a "cuck," a "beta," or "everything wrong with liberalism." But just know that if you do, I may ask you to talk. And if you refuse or block me automatically or agree and hang up on me, then maybe, babe, the snowflake is you.
我也知道,這場演說 會被放在網路上。 而網路就會有留言功能, 有留言功能,就免不了有仇恨。 所以,如果你在看這場演說, 你想要怎麼說我都沒關係。 你可以叫我「同性戀」、 「雪花」、「綠帽」、「β」, 或「自由主義所有不好的一切」。 但要知道,如果你這麼做, 我可能會邀請你與我交談。 如果你拒絕或是自動把我封鎖, 或是同意之後又把我掛斷, 那麼,也許,寶貝,你才是雪花。
Thank you so much.
非常謝謝。
(Applause)
(掌聲)
(Cheering)
(歡呼)
(Applause)
(掌聲)