Kurt Andersen: Like many architects, David is a hog for the limelight but is sufficiently reticent -- or at least pretends to be -- that he asked me to question him rather than speaking. In fact what we're going to talk about, I think, is in fact a subject that is probably better served by a conversation than an address. And I guess we have a bit of news clip to precede.
科特:就像許多建築師一樣,大衛一直都是鎂光燈注目的焦點, 但他卻不愛說話,或者說他假裝不愛說話, 因為他希望我問他問題,而不是直接發表演說。 而我們現在要談的話題, 我覺得和正式的演說比較起來, 或許輕鬆的談話會更適合。 我想我們先來看一段新聞剪輯。
Dan Rather: Since the September 11th attack on the World Trade Center, many people have flocked to downtown New York to see and pay respects at what amounts to the 16-acre burial ground. Now, as CBS's Jim Axelrod reports, they're putting the finishing touches on a new way for people to visit and view the scene.
丹拉瑟:自從911世貿中心遭受攻擊之後, 許多人都聚集到紐約市中心, 以朝聖的心情來觀看這個6萬5千平方公尺的世貿遺址。 根據CBS記者吉姆.艾斯羅德的報導,目前這裡已在搭建 一個新的平台,讓人們得以參觀世貿遺址。
Jim Axelrod: Forget the Empire State Building or the Statue of Liberty. There's a new place in New York where the crowds are thickest -- Ground Zero.
吉姆.艾斯羅德:除了帝國大廈和自由女神像之外, 現在紐約又有了一個新地標, 聚集了無數的人們--就是世貿遺址。
Tourist: I've taken my step-daughter here from Indianapolis. This was -- out of all the tourist sites in New York City -- this was her number-one pick.
遊客:我和我的繼女從印第安那波里斯來到這裡, 這是所有紐約的著名景點裡, 她心目中的第一名選擇。
JA: Thousands now line up on lower Broadway.
吉姆:有數千名的遊客一路排隊排到了百老匯下城。
Tourist: I've been wanting to come down here since this happened.
遊客:我從911之後,就一直想來這裡。
JA: Even on the coldest winter days. To honor and remember.
吉姆:即使在最寒冷的冬天, 還是有人來紀念死去的親人。
Tourist: It's reality, it's us. It happened here. This is ours.
遊客:恐怖攻擊真的發生在我們身上,就在這裡, 這是我們的記憶。
JA: So many, in fact, that seeing has become a bit of a problem.
吉姆:有這麼多遊客來到這裡, 參觀成了一件難事。
Tourist: I think that people are very frustrated that they're not able to get closer to see what's going on.
遊客:我覺得大家都很難過, 因為沒有辦法再靠近一點,看看發生了什麼事。
JA: But that is about to change. In record time, a team of architects and construction workers designed and built a viewing platform to ease the frustration and bring people closer.
吉姆:這一切即將改變。 一群建築師 和建築工人,正以破紀錄的速度, 設計並建造一個觀景平台,以解除大家的困擾, 大家可以更靠近地觀看這個遺址。
Man: They'll get an incredible panorama and understand, I think more completely, the sheer totality of the destruction of the place.
男性:遊客可以看到一覽無遺的景觀, 我認為可以更全面地看到 整個破壞後的遺址全貌。
JA: If you think about it, Ground Zero is unlike most any other tourist site in America. Unlike the Grand Canyon or the Washington Monument, people come here to see what's no longer there.
吉姆:想想看,世貿遺址和全美 其他的觀光景點截然不同, 這不是大峽谷或是華盛頓紀念碑, 大家是要來看已經不存在的東西。
David Rockwell: The first experience people will have here when they see this is not as a construction site but as this incredibly moving burial ground.
大衛:人們來到這裡參觀, 他們的第一個印象是這不是一個建築工地, 而是一個觸動人心的廢墟遺址。
JA: The walls are bare by design, so people can fill them with their own memorials the way they already have along the current perimeter.
吉姆:這些牆面是故意裸露出來的, 人們可以用自己的方式來進行悼念, 延續原先的悼念圍牆。
Tourist: From our hearts, it affected us just as much.
遊客:看這些悼念文句,真的引發我們內心深深的感觸。
JA: The ramps are made of simple material -- the kind of plywood you see at construction sites -- which is really the whole point. In the face of America's worst destruction people are building again. Jim Axelrod, CBS News, New York.
吉姆:平台表面是用輕便的材料搭建而成, 就是我們一般在建築工地所看到的那種合成板材而已, 但這才是重點。 這象徵了我們在美國最大的廢墟遺址上, 又重新再站了起來。 以上是CBS新聞駐紐約記者吉姆.艾斯羅德的報導。
KA: This is not an obvious subject to be in the sensuality segment, but certainly David you are known as -- I know, a phrase you hate -- an entertainment architect. Your work is highly sensual, even hedonistic.
科特:這在感官上絕對不是一件突出的作品, 大衛,尤其是你以往是被歸類為--嗯,你不太喜歡這個詞-- 娛樂業界的建築師。 你的作品一向充滿感性,甚至有點享樂主義的味道。
DR: I like that word.
大衛:我喜歡那個詞啊...
KA: It's about pleasure -- casinos and hotels and restaurants. How did the shock that all of us -- and especially all of us in New York -- felt on the 11th of September transmute into your desire to do this thing?
科特:好,反正就是有關休閒娛樂的建築,像是賭場、旅館和餐廳等。 911為我們所有人--尤其是在紐約的人-- 帶來了無比的震撼, 這種震撼是如何激發你創造這個作品的呢?
DR: Well the truth of the matter is, post-September 11th, I felt myself in the role originally -- first of all as someone who lives in Tribeca and whose neighborhood was devastated, and as someone who works less than a mile from there -- that I was in the role of forcing 100 people who work with me in my firm, to continue to have the same level of enthusiasm about creating the places we had been creating. In fact we're finishing a book which is called "Pleasure," which is about sensual pleasure in spaces.
大衛:嗯,事情的真相是,在911之後, 我覺得我自己起初的角色... 首先我是住在曼哈頓運河街南邊, 我附近的區域被摧毁了, 我工作的地點離那裡也不到2公里, 過去我扮演的角色是要求公司裡和我一起工作的100個同事, 要持續以相同的熱情, 去創造過去以來我們一直在創造的空間建築。 事實上,我們完成了一本名為『樂趣』的書 就是要來談空間的感官樂趣。
But I've got to tell you -- it became impossible to do that. We were really paralyzed. And I found myself the Friday after September 11th -- two days afterwards -- literally unable to motivate anyone to do anything. We gave the office a few days off.
但我得說,這本書可能永遠也不會出版了。 我們大家都嚇呆了。 我發現,我自己在911之後的那個星期五, 也就是911發生的二天後, 我完全無法激勵任何人去做任何事情, 所以我們讓大家休了幾天假。
And in discussing this with other architects, we had seen people saying in the press that they should rebuild the towers as they were -- they should rebuild them 50 stories taller. And I thought it was astonishing to speculate, as if this were a competition, on something that was such a fresh wound. And I had a series of discussions -- first with Rick Scofidio and Liz Diller, who collaborated with us on this, and several other people -- and really felt like we had to find relevance in doing something. And that as people who create places, the ultimate way to help wasn't to pontificate or to make up scenarios, but to help right now. So we tried to come up with a way, as a group, to have a kind of design SWAT team. And that was the mission that we came up with.
而我和其他建築師討論時, 看到媒體上有人說, 應該要重建這些大樓, 甚至要比原來的大樓高上50層樓。 我覺得這種想法真是太不可思議了, 這就像是一種競賽, 而且是在我們才剛撕裂的傷口上比賽。 所以我和很多人進行討論, 首先是瑞克.斯可菲迪爾和里茲.迪勒,他們後來協助我們搭建了平台, 還有許多其他的人, 我們都一致覺得應該做些和911有關聯的事。 而當人們要蓋一棟建築時,最好的幫手 不會在那裡胡亂發表意見,或是憑空想像, 而是提供直接的幫助。 所以我們想出一個辦法, 我們要組成一個設計的特種部隊, 這就是我們要執行的任務。
KA: Were you conscious of suddenly -- as a designer whose work is all about fulfilling wants -- suddenly fulfilling needs?
科特:你有意識到... 身為設計師,你們的工作就是要滿足別人的願望, 滿足人們的需求嗎?
DR: Well what I was aware of was, there was this overwhelming need to act now. And we were asked to participate in a few projects before this. There was a school, PS 234, that had been evacuated down at Ground Zero. They moved to an abandoned school. We took about 20 or 30 architects and designers and artists, and over four days -- it was like this urban barn-raising -- to renovate it, and everyone wanted to help. It was just extraordinary. Tom Otterness contributed, Maira Kalman contributed and it became this cathartic experience for us.
大衛:嗯,我所知道的是, 大家都迫切希望能有即刻的行動, 而在這之前,我們已經受邀參與其他幾個專案, 像是PS 234這間學校,他們被迫遷出世貿遺址, 暫時搬到一間廢棄的學校。 我們出動了大約20或30位建築師、設計師和藝術家, 總共花了四天時間,就像在都市裡改建一座榖倉一樣, 每一個人都願意幫忙。 真的很棒! 湯姆.歐特尼斯和麥拉.卡門都來幫忙了, 這真是一次很棒的經驗。
KA: And that was done, effectively, by October 8 or something?
科特:整個案子在三個星期內完成, 是在十月八號左右完成的吧?
DR: Yeah.
大衛:對。
KA: Obviously, what you faced in trying to do something as substantial as this project -- and this is only one of four that you've designed to surround the site -- you must have run up against the incredibly byzantine, entrenched bureaucracy and powers that be in New York real estate and New York politics.
科特:在你嚐試進行這麼重要的專案時, 我們剛才所看的只不過是你所設計的 整個環繞式平台的四分之一而已, 你一定會衝撞到紐約房地產界和政治圈 那種極為拜占廷式,且根深蒂固的官僚 和權力體系吧?
DR: Well, it's a funny thing. We finished PS 234, and had dinner with a small group. I was actually asked to be a committee chair on an AIA committee to rebuild. And I sat in on several meetings. And there were the most circuitous grand plans that had to do with long-term infrastructure and rebuilding the entire city. And the fact is that there were immediate wounds and needs that needed to be filled, and there was talk about inclusion and wanting it to be an inclusive process. And it wasn't an inclusive group. So we said, what is --
大衛:嗯,確實很有趣。 在PS 234完工之後,我們有一小群人聚在一起吃晚飯, 席間有人邀請我出任AIA重建委員會的主席, 而我參加了幾場會議, 他們所討論的都是很大型的計畫, 要花很長的時間去進行基礎建設,重新改造這個城市。 但其實,有些傷口和渴望是我們得立刻去撫平或滿足的, 有人問到這些傷口和渴望是什麼,希望我們都能納入, 但這個委員會本身就沒有足夠的包容性啊... 所以我們說...
KA: It was not an inclusive group?
科特:這不是個有包容性的委員會嗎?
DR: It was not an inclusive group. It was predominantly a white, rich, corporate group that was not representative of the city.
大衛:這不是有包容性的委員會, 這個委員會完全是由有錢的白人及企業主導, 不能代表整個城市。
KA: Shocking.
科特:真讓人意想不到!
DR: Yeah, surprising. So Rick and Liz and Kevin and I came up with the idea. The city actually approached us. We first approached the city about Pier 94. We saw how PS 234 worked. The families -- the victims of the families -- were going to this pier that was incredibly dehumanizing.
大衛:對啊,很意外吧? 所以瑞克、里茲、凱文和我就想做出這個平台, 其實是市政府先找上我們的, 我們一開始是和市政府接洽94號碼頭的事, 因為我們已有PS 234的成功經驗。 那些受難者的家人, 要他們去這個碼頭真的很違背人性。
KA: On the Hudson River?
科特:是在哈德遜河上嗎?
DR: Yeah. And the city actually -- through Tim Zagat initially, and then through Christyne Nicholas, then we got to Giuliani -- said, "You know we don't want to do anything with Pier 94 right now, but we have an observation platform for the families down at Ground Zero that we'd like to be a more dignified experience for the families, and a way to protect it from the weather."
大衛:對,透過提姆.塞格的引介, 然後又透過克利斯汀.尼可拉斯,最後我們見到了朱利安尼, 市政府的意思是不想動94號碼頭, 但是想在世貿遺址上,為受難者家屬搭建一個觀景平台, 讓受難者家屬能更有尊嚴, 也讓參觀者的行程不受到惡劣天氣的影響。
So I went down there with Rick and Liz and Kevin, and I've got to say, it was the most moving experience of my life. It was devastating to see the simple plywood platform with a rail around it, where the families of the victims had left notes to them. And there was no mediation between us and the experience. There was no filter.
所以瑞克、里茲、凱文和我就來到世貿遺址, 我必須承認,那是我這輩子覺得最感人的一次經驗, 看著這個純用板材搭建出來的平台圍繞著世貿遺址, 受難者在上面留下致受難者的悼念詞,那真的很感動。 你可以真實地感受到那種感動, 完全沒有經過過濾。
And I remembered on September 11th, on 14th Street, the roof of our building -- we can see the World Trade Towers prominently -- and I saw the first building collapse from a conference room on the eighth floor on a TV that we had set up. And then everyone was up on the roof, so I ran up there. And it was amazing how much harder it was to believe in real life than it was on TV. There was something about the comfort of the filter and how much information was between us and the experience. So seeing this in a very simple, dignified way was a very powerful experience.
我還記得,在911當天,我們在14街上, 在我們那棟大樓的屋頂上,原本可以看到世貿大樓聳立, 但我卻在我們八樓的會議室裡的電視上, 看到第一棟大樓倒塌, 那時每個人都在屋頂上,所以我也跑上去, 我真的很難相信電視上所播出的畫面, 竟然就真實地發生在我眼前。 有時媒體為了安撫大家,會故意對新聞做一些過濾, 不知道有多少真實的事件被過濾掉了。 所以我們要大家用最真實的角度, 最誠敬的方式來看待這個意義非凡的場景。
So we went back to the city and said we're not particularly interested in the upgrade of this as a VIP platform, but we've spent some time down there. At the same time the city had this need. They were looking for a solution to deal with 30 or 40 thousand people a day who were going down there, that had nowhere to go. And there was no way to deal with the traffic around the site. So dealing with it is just an immediate master plan. There was a way -- there had to be a way -- to get people to move around the site.
最後,我們回到市政府,告訴他們, 我們不想把94號碼頭升級成為VIP專屬的貴賓級平台, 但我們己經投入不少時間在這上面了。 剛好市政府也有這個需求, 他們希望能想出辦法, 紓解每天三萬到四萬人次的參觀人潮, 這些人一定會來參觀遺址,但卻沒有地方可站。 由於世貿遺址週邊的人潮已造成問題, 所以這件事變成當務之急, 我們必須想辦法 讓人們能在遺址週邊活動。
KA: But then you've got to figure out a way -- we will skip over the insanely tedious process of getting permits and getting everybody on board -- but simply funding this thing. It looks like a fairly simple thing, but this was a half a million dollar project?
科特:後來你們想出了這個辦法-- 我想先跳過中間繁瑣的申請程序, 以及招募各種人才的程序,讓我們直接來談談資金的問題。 資金看起來似乎是最單純的事情, 但這個專案花了50萬美元對吧?
DR: Well, we knew that if it wasn't privately funded, it wasn't going to happen. And we also, frankly, knew that if it didn't happen by the end of the Giuliani administration, then everyone who we were dealing with at the DOT and the Police Department and all of the -- we were meeting with 20 or 30 people with the city at a time, and it was set up by the Office of Emergency Management. This incredible act on their part, because they really wanted this, and they sensed that this needed to happen.
大衛:嗯,我們認為如果不從私人機構籌措經費, 這件事就辦不成。 而且老實講,如果我們不能在 朱利安尼任內完成, 那我們那時所接洽的交通部門、 警察部門和其他人都不會再配合協助了, 那時我們至少同時和市政府裡20到30個官員打交道。 整個計畫是由緊急應變辦公室所籌設, 這對公務機關來說真的很不尋常,因為他們太希望搭建這個平台了, 所以很積極地推動實現。
KA: And there was therefore this ticking clock, because Giuliani was obviously out three months after that.
科特:所以你們有時間壓力? 朱利安尼在那之後三個月就要卸任了吧?
DR: Yeah. So the first thing we had to do was find a way to get this -- we had to work with the families of the victims, through the city, to make sure that they knew this was happening. Because this didn't want to be a surprise. And we also had to be as under the radar screen as we could be in New York, because the key was not raising a lot of objection and sort of working as quietly as possible.
大衛:對,所以我們認為首要任務是去想出辦法-- 我們必須和受難者家屬一起合作, 所以我們透過市政府去讓他們知道我們正在進行這件事, 我不希望他們覺得這一切很突然。 由於我們是在紐約進行這項工作,所以勢必會備受矚目, 所以我們想儘可能低調進行, 才不致引發太多反對的聲浪。
We came up with the idea of setting up a foundation, mainly because when we found a contractor who would build this, he would not agree to do this, even if we would pay him the money. There needed to be a foundation in place. So we came up with a foundation, and actually what happened was one major developer in New York --
我們後來想到去成立一個基金會, 主要是我們找來會做這個工程的包商, 他並不願意接我們的案子,即便我們付錢給他也一樣, 他只接基金會的案子。 所以我們想辦法成立了一個基金會, 其實背後是一個紐約的重要開發商...
KA: Who shall remain nameless, I guess?
科特:他不想讓名字曝光吧?
DR: Yeah. His initials are JS, and he owns Rockefeller Center, if that helps anyone -- volunteered to help. And we met with him. The prices from the contractors were between five to 700,000 dollars. And Atlantic-Heydt, who's the largest scaffolding contractor in the country, volunteered to do it at cost. So this developer said, "You know what, we'll underwrite the entire expense." And we said, "That's incredible!"
大衛:對,他的名字縮寫是JS,洛克斐勒中心是他名下的產業, 希望你們猜得出來--他完全是自願幫忙。 後來我們和他見了面。 工程包商的報價大約是介於50到70萬美元, 而全美最大的鷹架承包商亞特蘭提克-海德特 志願以成本價承攬工程, 所以這個開發商就說:「好吧,剩下的錢就讓我們出好了。」 我們說:「那真是太棒了!」
And I think this was the 21st, and we knew this had to be built and up by the 28th. And we had to start construction the next day. We had a meeting that evening with his contractor of choice, and the contractor showed up with the drawings of the platform about half the size that we had drawn it.
那時候是21號, 我們預計要在28號搭建完成, 所以隔天就必須開始動工。 我們當天傍晚就和他選定的包商開會, 但包商畫出來的平台草圖 只有我們畫的一半大小。
KA: Sort of like the Spinal Tap scene where you get the tiny little Stonehenge, I guess? (Laughter)
科特:我猜就像我們在做脊椎穿刺時, 看那些小東西都變得跟史前巨大石柱群一樣大的感覺吧? (笑聲)
DR: In fact, it was as if this was going to be window-washing scaffolding. There was no sense of the fact that this is next to Saint Paul -- that this is really a place that needs to be kind of dignified, and a place to reflect and remember. And I've got to say that we spent a lot of time in putting this together, watching the crowds that gathered at Saint Paul -- which is just to the right -- and moving around the site. And I live down there, so we spent a lot of time looking at the need.
大衛:那變得好像是為了洗窗戶才搭的鷹架一樣, 在聖保羅教堂旁邊搭起這樣一個小平台,一點都不合理, 這個地方應該是表達誠敬的地方, 要讓人緬懷親人和紀念的地方。 我得說我們花了很多時間 把每件事拼湊起來,我們終於可以看著群眾 聚集在平台右側的聖保羅教堂,然後進入到平台上參觀。 由於我就住在附近,所以我花了很多時間觀察,
And I think people were amazed at two things -- I think they were amazed at the destruction, but I think there was a sense of disbelief about the heroics of New Yorkers that I found very moving. Just the sort of everyday heroics of New Yorkers.
我發現大家對二件事感到驚訝: 我認為大家對破壞的程度感到驚訝, 大家也開始懷疑我個人覺得很感人的 紐約式的英雄主義, 就是我們一般日常所見的紐約人的英雄主義。
So we were in this meeting and the contractor literally said, "I'm going to lock the door, because this developer will not agree to have you leave till you've signed off on this." And we said, "Well, this is half the size, it doesn't have any of the design features that have been agreed upon by everyone -- everyone in the city. We'd have to go back to the beginning to do this." And I convinced him that we should leave the room with the agreement to build it as designed.
在我們開會的時候,包商說: 「我去把門鎖起來,因為開發商 不會同意你們離開,除非你們在上面簽字同意。」 我們回覆:「這只有一半大小, 也沒有任何我們當初同意的設計特色, 紐約市裡的每一個人都不會同意。 我們最好再重頭來過。」 我後來說服他按照我們所設計的圖形, 來搭建平台。
The next day I got an email from the developer saying that he was withdrawing all funding. So we didn't know what to do, but we decided to cast a very wide net. We emailed out letters to as many people as we could -- several people in the audience here -- who were very helpful.
第二天,開發商寄了個郵件給我, 說他要撤回所有資金。 這下輪我們不知道該怎麼辦了, 但後來我們決定撒出一個大網, 儘可能地把郵件寄給我們認識的每一個人, 在座應該也有人收到郵件,每一個人都很幫忙。
KA: There was no thought of abandoning ship at that point?
科特:那時沒有想到要放棄嗎?
DR: No. In fact I told the contractor to go ahead. He had already ordered materials based on my go-ahead. We knew that one way or another this was going to happen. And we just felt it had to happen.
大衛:沒有,我還叫包商儘管如期施工, 所以他還依據指令訂了一大堆建材。 我們知道不管怎樣,一定要辦成這件事, 我們就是覺得這是我們的使命。
KA: You were funding it yourself and with contributions and this foundation. Richard, I think very correctly, made the point at the beginning -- before all the chair designers came out -- about the history of chair designers imposing aesthetic solutions on this kind of universal, banal, common problem of sitting. It seems to me with this, that it was the opposite of that. This was an unprecedented, singular design problem.
科特:後來是你和基金會自己出錢出力,完成這個計畫。 我想理察在一開始 就指出一個問題, 就是在那些座椅設計師出場之前, 他提到座椅設計師,向來針對平凡無奇的坐的需求, 提出特別強調美感的設計; 但對我來說, 你這個作品似乎完全和美感沾不上邊, 這可是個史無前例、很特別的設計問題啊。
DR: Well here's the issue: we knew that this was not in the sense of -- we think about the site, and think about the need for a memorial. It was important that this not be categorized as a memorial. That this was a place for people to reflect, to remember -- a kind of quiet place.
大衛:嗯,是有這個問題沒錯, 我們知道這個作品談不上美感, 我們反覆思考這個遺址,考慮大家想要紀念親人的渴望, 但最重要的是不要把這個作品當成是一種紀念建築, 這是一個讓大家去反省、去記憶、 去沈思的地方。
So it led us to using design solutions that created as few filters between the viewer -- as we said about the families' platform -- and the experience as possible. It's all incredibly humble material. It's scaffolding and plywood. And it allows -- by sort of the procession of the movement, up by Saint Paul's and down the other side -- it gives you about 300 feet to go up 13 feet from the ground to where you get the 360 degree view.
所以,我們運用的設計概念, 是愈不要遮蔽掉景觀愈好, 就像我們所說的,這是給受難者家屬悼念亡者的平台。 我們儘量使用普通的材料, 有鷹架和合板。 當參觀人群來到這裡的時候, 他們可以從聖保羅教堂那裡上去,再從另一邊下來, 長約90公尺的通道讓你上到約4公尺的高度, 你可以在那上面看到360度全景。
But the design was driven by a need to be quick, cheap, safe, respectful, flexible. One of the other things is this is designed to be moveable. Because when we looked at the four platforms around the site, one of which is an upgrade of the families' platform, we knew that these had to be moveable to respond to changing conditions, and the changing definition of what Ground Zero is.
整個設計的理念是要求快速、平價、安全、肅穆和彈性, 另一個要求是這個平台必須是可以移動的。 你可以看看在遺址週邊的四個平台, 其中一個是由原先受難者家屬平台改建的, 我們瞭解這些平台必須要能移動, 以適應未來可能的改變, 也可以隨世貿遺址的定義而改變。
KA: Your work -- I mean, we've talked about this before -- a lot of your work, I think, is informed by your belief in, or your focus on the temporariness of all things and the evanescence of things, and a kind of "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die," sort of sense of existence. This is clearly not a work for the ages. You know, a couple of years this thing isn't going to be here. Did that require, as an architect, a new way of thinking about what you were doing? To think of it as this purely temporary installation?
科特:我們之前就談過這一點了, 你的許多作品都傳達出你的信仰或是你所重視的信念, 也就是你認為每一件事都是短暫的,終究會消失的。 就像是:「儘情地吃喝玩樂吧!反正明天就要死了!」 有點存在主義的味道。 這個作品很顯然不能長久保存, 或許幾年之後就不存在了。 身為一個建築師,這是否意味著 你必須以嶄新的思考模式來工作? 把它純粹當作一個短暫的裝置來設計?
DR: No, I don't think so. I think this is, obviously, substantially different from anything we'd ever thought about doing before, just by the nature of it. Where it overlaps with thoughts about our work in general is, number one -- the notion of collaboration as a sort of way to get things done. And Kevin Kennon, Rick Scofidio, Liz Diller and all the people within the city -- Norman Lear, who I spoke to four hours before our deadline for funding, offered to give us a bridge loan to help us get through it. So the notion of collaboration -- I think this reinforces how important that is.
大衛:不,我不這麼想, 我認為這個作品本質上就和我們以往 所設計的作品截然不同,本質上就不同。 但一般說來,這個作品還是具有一些共通的特性, 第一,我們知道合作才能完成一件事, 而凱文.肯儂、瑞克.斯可菲迪爾、里茲.迪勒 和整個城裡的人, 像是諾曼.李爾,我在增資截止前四個小時才和他進行談話, 他願意提供我們一筆借款幫助我們渡過難關, 所以我們知道合作... 這更讓我們體會到其重要性。
And in terms of the temporary nature of it, our goal was not to create something that would be there longer than it needed to be. I think what we were most interested in was promoting a kind of dialogue that we felt may not have been happening enough in this city, about what's really happening there.
而這個作品具有短暫陳列的本質, 所以我們的目標就是要打造一個 剛好能符合我們這種要求的平台。 我們最希望藉此讓人們產生一種對話, 這種對話以往在這個城市裡並不多, 我們想讓人們談談這裡到底發生了什麼事。
And a day or two before it opened was Giuliani's farewell address, where he proposed the idea of all of Ground Zero being a memorial. Which was very controversial, but it resonated with a lot of people. And I think regardless of what the position is about how this sacred piece of land is to be used, having it come out of actually seeing it in a real encounter, I think makes it a more powerful dialogue. And that's what we were interested in. So that, very much, is in the realm of things I've been interested in before.
在這個平台開幕的前一、二天,朱利安尼剛好發表了他的卸任演說, 他在他的演說裡建議將世貿遺址保留做為一種紀念, 這個提議其實引起很多爭論,但卻也讓大多數人產生共鳴。 我想,不管你對處理這一大片 恐怖攻擊的廢墟有何意見, 把它呈現出來讓大家看到, 這本身就有十足的話題性, 那正是我們真正感興趣的事。 這一向都是我 極感興趣的領域。
KA: It seems to me, among other things, a lovely piece of civic infrastructure. It enables that conversation to get serious. And six months after the fact -- and only a few months away from the site being cleaned -- we are very quickly, now, getting to the point where those conversations about what should go there are getting serious. Do you have -- having been as physically involved in the site as you have been doing this project -- have any ideas about what should or shouldn't be done?
科特:對我來說,和其他作品相比,你的這個作品算是一件頗為雅緻的市政建設, 可以讓人們產生嚴肅的對話。 在911發生六個月之後, 也就是在遺址現場清理完成後的幾個月內, 國內的人很快地就將焦點 放在該在遺址上放些什麼東西這件事上, 既然你親身參與了打造平台這個計畫, 你對於該放什麼,或不該放什麼, 有沒有什麼看法?
DR: Well, I think one thing that shouldn't be done is evaluate -- I think right now the discussion is a very closed discussion on the master plan. The Protetch Gallery recently had a show on ideas for buildings, which had some sort of inventive ideas of buildings.
大衛:嗯,我認為一件不該做的事,就是妄下評論。 我認為現在大家都只專注於討論遺址上該建什麼, 普德施藝廊最近展出了各種建築理念, 對於激發我們對建築的想法很有幫助。
KA: But it had some really terrible ideas.
科特:裡面有些理念很嚇人哩...
DR: And it also felt a little bit like a kind of competition of ideas, where I think the focus of ideas should be on master planning and uses. And I think there should be a broader -- which there's starting to be -- the dialogue is really opening up to, what does this site really want to be? And I truly believe until the issue of memorial is sorted out, that it's going to be very hard to have an intelligent discussion. There's a few discussions right now that I think are very positive, about depressing the West Side Highway and connecting this over, so that there's one uninterrupted piece of land.
大衛:這有點像是各種理念的競賽, 但我認為這些理念的重點是在整體規劃及其用途, 而且應該要更為廣泛,現在已經開始有這種趨勢了。 目前人們討論的重點, 應該放在我們想要這個遺址成為什麼樣子? 我相信在紀念性這個問題解決之前, 要產生一些明智的討論是很難的。 現在有一些我認為還算積極正面的討論, 就是把西側公路的流量降低,從這裡連接過去, 這樣這一塊區域就不會受到干擾了。
KA: Well, I think that's interesting. And it gets to another issue that was probably inappropriate to discuss six months ago, but perhaps isn't now, which is, not many of us love the World Trade Center as a piece of architecture, as what it had done to this city and that huge plaza. Is this an opportunity, is the silver lining -- a silver lining, here -- to rebuild some more traditional city grid, or not?
科特:嗯,我覺得還滿有趣的。 現在我想談談另一個話題,這個話題在六個月之前 或許還不適合談論,現在也不一定適合, 就是有關於原先的世貿中心,很多人並不喜歡 世貿中心對這個城市景觀所造成的影響,他們太過高大了。 我們現在是否有機會,有一線曙光的機會, 就算一點點機會也好, 將遺址重建為更為傳統的城市建築?
DR: I think there's a real opportunity to engage in a discussion of why we live in cities. And why do we live in places where such dissimilar people collide up against us each day? I don't think it has much to do with 50 or 60 or 70 or 80 thousand new office spaces, regardless of what the number is. So yeah, I think there is a chance to re-look at how we think about cities.
大衛:我認為現在的機會正適合 大家重新思考我們居住在城市裡的理由, 思考為什麼我們要和一群完全不相像的人 住在一起,每天互相衝突、碰撞? 我認為這和這棟新建築裡可容納5、6、7或8萬坪的辦公空間沒什麼關係, 不管有多少空間都和這個沒有關係。 對,我確實認為這是我們重新思考城市地位的機會。
And in fact, there's a proposal on the table now for building number seven.
事實上,現在有已經有人提出計畫,要改建第七棟建築。
KA: Which was the building just north of the Towers?
科特:就是在世貿中心北面的那一棟建築?
DR: Right, which the towers fell into. And the reason that's been held up is essentially by community outrage that they're not re-opening the street to connect that back to the rest of the city. I think a public dialogue -- I think, you know, I'd like to see an international competition, and a call for ideas for uses.
大衛:對,倒下來的大樓剛好壓在它的上面, 而它被首先提出來要求改建的原因,是因為區民受不了 市政府不重新開放 對外連接的街道。 所以我認為公開的討論,你知道我的意思吧? 我希望能看到國際性的競標, 提出各種實用的方案。
KA: Whether it's arts, whether it's housing, whether it's what amount of shopping?
科特:不管是藝術品、住宅 或是大型商場都可以嗎?
DR: Right. And we're looking for other things. This small foundation we put together is looking for other ways to help. Including taking a small piece adjacent to the site and inviting 10 architects who currently don't have a voice in New York to do artist housing. And find other ways to encourage the discussion to be against sort of monolithic, single solutions, and more about a multiplicity of things.
大衛:對,我們還想看到其他的型式, 我們成立的這個小型的基金會,就是要提供其他方式的協助, 包括我們會在遺址附近找一塊小型土地, 邀請十位目前在紐約還沒沒無名的建築師, 在這裡蓋藝術村。 還有用其他的方式激發不同的討論, 來對抗一言堂或是單一解決方案, 我們想要納入更多元的元素。
KA: Before we end, I know you have a piece of digital video of the experience of being on this platform?
科特:在我們結束之前,你好像有一段關於 平台的影片要播放,是嗎?
DR: John Kamen -- who's here, actually -- put together a two and a half minute piece that shows the platform in use. So I thought that would be good to end with.
大衛:約翰.卡門今天在現場,是他剪輯了這段 2分半鐘的影片,影片是有關平台目前的使用狀況。 我覺得用這段影片來做結尾很棒。
DR: We're looking from Fulton Street, west. One of the tricky issues we had with the Giuliani administration was I had forgotten how anti-graffiti he was. And essentially our structure was designed to be written on.
大衛:我們現在是從富爾頓街往西邊看, 我們和朱利安尼團隊一起工作時,有一個很有意思的問題, 就是我們都忘了之前朱利安尼有多麼討厭街頭塗鴉, 但我們的設計就是要讓人們在上面寫字的。
KA: As you say, it's not a memorial. But were you conscious of memorials? The Vietnam Memorial? Those kinds of forms?
科特:就像你說的,這不是一個紀念館, 但你們有考慮過要蓋紀念館嗎?像是越戰紀念館? 這一類型的東西?
DR: We certainly did as much research as we could, and we were conscious of other memorials. And also the complexity and length of time they really take to do. It's 350 people on the committee for Oklahoma City, which is why we thought of this as a sort of ad-hoc, spontaneous solution that expanded on Union Square and the places that were ad-hoc memorials in the city already.
大衛:我們確實在這方面做了許多研究, 我們也參考了其他許多紀念館或紀念碑, 瞭解其構造的複雜度及所需的施工期間。 奧克拉荷馬市的委員會是由350位委員所組成, 因此我們才將這個作品視為自發性的作品, 從聯合廣場延伸出來, 這樣就已經是一種特別的紀念型式。
The scaffolding you can see built up over the street is de-mountable.
現在你看到架在街上的鷹架是可以拆除的,
What's interesting now is the nature of the site has totally changed, so that what you're aware of is not just the destruction of the buildings in Ground Zero, but all of the buildings around it -- and the scars on the building around it, which are enormous. This shows Saint Paul's on the left.
有趣的是遺址的本質已徹底改變了, 所以你現在所看到的, 已經不再是單純的大廈倒塌後的廢墟, 而是廢墟週遭的大樓, 他們身上留有許多傷痕,都是些巨大的傷痕。 這是左側的聖保羅教堂。
KA: I just want to thank you on behalf of New Yorkers for making this happen and getting this done. But the kind of virtually instantaneous nature of its erection, and its being there, almost before you could believe that a response of this magnitude could be accomplished, is part of its extraordinary -- I don't know if beauty is the word -- but presence.
科特:我想謝謝你為紐約居民 搭建了這個平台,讓這一切得以實現。 這個平台的本質本來就是短暫的, 在你還來不及相信以前, 它已產生了存在的意義, 大家對於能完成這麼巨大的作品, 反應都是非比尋常, 我不知道是否能用「美麗」這個詞-- 但似乎恰如其份。
DR: It was an honor to do. And we were thrilled to be able to show it here.
大衛:打造這個平台是我們的榮耀, 能在這裡展示給各位,我們的心情都很激動。