I'm a brain scientist, and as a brain scientist, I'm actually interested in how the brain learns, and I'm especially interested in a possibility of making our brains smarter, better and faster.
Eu son neurocientífica, e como tal interésame saber cómo aprende o cerebro, especialmente a posibilidade de facer os nosos cerebros máis eficaces, mellores e máis rápidos.
This is in this context I'm going to tell you about video games. When we say video games, most of you think about children. It's true. Ninety percent of children do play video games. But let's be frank. When the kids are in bed, who is in front of the PlayStation? Most of you. The average age of a gamer is 33 years old, not eight years old, and in fact, if we look at the projected demographics of video game play, the video game players of tomorrow are older adults. (Laughter)
Neste contexto voulles falar sobre os videoxogos. Cando falamos de videoxogos moitos de vostedes xa están pensando en nenos. Non lles falta razón. O noventa por cento dos nenos xogan con eles. Pero sexamos sinceros. Cando os nenos van para a cama, quen queda diante da PlayStation? Moitos de vostedes. A idade media dos xogadores é de 33 anos, non de oito; de feito, se miramos as proxeccións demográficas dos videoxogos, os videoxogadores do mañá serán os vellos.
So video [gaming] is pervasive throughout our society. It is clearly here to stay. It has an amazing impact on our everyday life. Consider these statistics released by Activision. After one month of release of the game "Call Of Duty: Black Ops," it had been played for 68,000 years worldwide, right? Would any of you complain if this was the case about doing linear algebra?
(Risas) En suma, os videoxogos xa son omnipresentes. Están aquí para quedar. Teñen un impacto enorme na nosa vida diaria. Vexan estas estatísticas facilitadas por Activision. Ao cabo dun mes do seu lanzamento, o xogo "Call Of Duty: Black Ops" xa se xogara durante 68.000 anos en todo o mundo. Alguén se preocuparía se fosen exercicios de álxebra lineal? Así que no laboratorio
So what we are asking in the lab is, how can we leverage that power? Now I want to step back a bit. I know most of you have had the experience of coming back home and finding your kids playing these kinds of games. (Shooting noises) The name of the game is to get after your enemy zombie bad guys before they get to you, right? And I'm almost sure most of you have thought, "Oh, come on, can't you do something more intelligent than shooting at zombies?" I'd like you to put this kind of knee-jerk reaction in the context of what you would have thought if you had found your girl playing sudoku or your boy reading Shakespeare. Right? Most parents would find that great. Well, I'm not going to tell you that playing video games days in and days out is actually good for your health. It's not, and binging is never good. But I'm going to argue that in reasonable doses, actually the very game I showed you at the beginning, those action-packed shooter games have quite powerful effects and positive effects on many different aspects of our behavior.
preguntámonos cómo aproveitar esa potencia. Pero volvamos un paso atrás. Seguro que máis dunha vez ao chegar á casa atoparon aos nenos diante destes videoxogos. (Disparos) O obxectivo deste xogo é pillar aos enemigos zombies antes que te collan eles a ti. E case seguro que a maioría de vostedes pensaron: Veña, non podes facer algo mais intelixente que matar zombis? Gustaríame que comparasen esta reacción instintiva co que pensarían se atopasen á súa filla facendo un sudoku ou ao seu fillo lendo a Shakespeare. Moitos pais consideraríano xenial. Vale, non lles vou dicir que xogar cos videoxogos todo o día sexa bo para a saúde. Claro que non, abusar nunca é bo. Pero si defendo que en doses razoables, xogos como o que lles amosei antes, eses xogos de acción e disparos, teñen efectos bastante potentes, efectos positivos, en moitos aspectos do comportamento.
There's not one week that goes without some major headlines in the media about whether video games are good or bad for you, right? You're all bombarded with that. I'd like to put this kind of Friday night bar discussion aside and get you to actually step into the lab. What we do in the lab is actually measure directly, in a quantitative fashion, what is the impact of video games on the brain. And so I'm going to take a few examples from our work.
Non hai semana que non nos atopemos con grandes titulares na prensa sobre se os videoxogos son bos ou malos. Bombardéannos con eles. Gustaríame sacar este asunto do faladoiro de café e que entremos no laboratorio. O que facemos alí e medir directamente, cuantitativamente, o impacto dos videoxogos no cerebro. Voulles amosar algúns exemplos deste traballo.
One first saying that I'm sure you all have heard is the fact that too much screen time makes your eyesight worse. That's a statement about vision. There may be vision scientists among you. We actually know how to test that statement. We can step into the lab and measure how good your vision is. Well, guess what? People that don't play a lot of action games, that don't actually spend a lot of time in front of screens, have normal, or what we call corrective-to-normal vision. That's okay. The issue is what happens with these guys that actually indulge into playing video games like five hours per week, 10 hours per week, 15 hours per week. By that statement, their vision should be really bad, right? Guess what? Their vision is really, really good. It's better than those that don't play. And it's better in two different ways. The first way is that they're actually able to resolve small detail in the context of clutter, and though that means being able to read the fine print on a prescription rather than using magnifier glasses, you can actually do it with just your eyesight. The other way that they are better is actually being able to resolve different levels of gray. Imagine you're driving in a fog. That makes a difference between seeing the car in front of you and avoiding the accident, or getting into an accident. So we're actually leveraging that work to develop games for patients with low vision, and to have an impact on retraining their brain to see better. Clearly, when it comes to action video games, screen time doesn't make your eyesight worse.
En primeiro lugar, seguro que oíron máis dunha vez que botar moito tempo diante da pantalla prexudica a vista. Unha afirmación acerca da visión. Seguro que aquí hai alguén que investiga sobre a visión. Pois podemos poñer a proba esta afirmación. Podemos ir ao laboratorio e medir cómo andamos da vista. E saben o que atopamos? As persoas que non xogan moito con videoxogos, que non botan moito tempo diante da pantalla, teñen unha vista normal. Correcto. O caso é qué pasa con eses outros que botan 5, 10 ou 15 horas á semana cos videoxogos. Debemos supoñer que teñen a vista fatal. Pois saiban que a súa vista é moi boa. Mellor que a dos que non xogan. E é mellor en dous aspectos. O primeiro, que captan mellor os detalles nun contexto desordenado, o que significa que son quen de ler a letra pequena dunha etiqueta sen ter que usar unha lupa, poden lela a simple vista. A outra cousa que fan mellor é distinguir niveis de grises. Imaxínense conducindo con néboa. Iso marcará a diferenza entre ver ou non o coche que vén de fronte, entre ter ou non un accidente. Así que estamos a traballar no deseño de xogos para pacientes con baixa visión, para readestrar o cerebro e mellorar a vista. En resumo, que o tempo diante da pantalla con videoxogos de acción, non lle fai dano á vista.
Another saying that I'm sure you have all heard around: Video games lead to attention problems and greater distractability. Okay, we know how to measure attention in the lab. I'm actually going to give you an example of how we do so. I'm going to ask you to participate, so you're going to have to actually play the game with me. I'm going to show you colored words. I want you to shout out the color of the ink. Right? So this is the first example. ["Chair"] Orange, good. ["Table"] Green. ["Board"] Audience: Red.Daphne Bavelier: Red. ["Horse"] DB: Yellow. Audience: Yellow. ["Yellow"] DB: Red. Audience: Yellow. ["Blue"] DB: Yellow. Okay, you get my point, right? (Laughter) You're getting better, but it's hard. Why is it hard? Because I introduced a conflict between the word itself and its color. How good your attention is determines actually how fast you resolve that conflict, so the young guys here at the top of their game probably, like, did a little better than some of us that are older. What we can show is that when you do this kind of task with people that play a lot of action games, they actually resolve the conflict faster. So clearly playing those action games doesn't lead to attention problems.
Outra afirmación que seguro que oíron: os videoxogos provocan problemas de atención e distractibilidade. Pois no laboratorio podemos medir a atención. Voulles poñer un exemplo de cómo facemos. Voulles pedir que participen, teñen que xogar comigo. Voulles amosar palabras de cores. Teñen que dicirme a cor da tinta. Aquí está o primeiro exemplo. ["Cadeira"] Laranxa, correcto. ["Mesa"] Verde. ["Taboleiro"] Público: vermello Daphne Bavelier: vermello ["Cabalo"] DB: marelo. Público: marelo. ["Marelo"] DB: voxo. Público: marelo. ["Azul"] DB: marelo. (Risas) Vale, collérono, non si? Van mellorando, pero é difícil. Por que? Porque introducín un conflito entre o significado da palabra e a súa cor. O que determina a rapidez en resolver o conflito é o boa que sexa a atención, así que os máis novos aquí, probablemente o fixeron un pouco mellor que os que somos máis vellos. O que vemos con este tipo de tarefa é que as persoas que xogan moito con videoxogos de acción son máis rápidas resolvendo o conflito. Así que está claro que os videoxogos de acción non provocan problemas de atención.
Actually, those action video game players have many other advantages in terms of attention, and one aspect of attention which is also improved for the better is our ability to track objects around in the world. This is something we use all the time. When you're driving, you're tracking, keeping track of the cars around you. You're also keeping track of the pedestrian, the running dog, and that's how you can actually be safe driving, right?
En realidade, estes videoxogadores teñen moitas outras vantaxes en termos de atención, e un aspecto no que melloran é a capacidade para seguir obxectos coa vista. Facemos isto todo o tempo. Cando conducen, seguen coa vista os coches de arredor. Seguen coa vista ao peón, o can que pasa a correr,
In the lab, we get people to come to the lab, sit in front of a computer screen, and we give them little tasks that I'm going to get you to do again. You're going to see yellow happy faces and a few sad blue faces. These are children in the schoolyard in Geneva during a recess during the winter. Most kids are happy. It's actually recess. But a few kids are sad and blue because they've forgotten their coat. Everybody begins to move around, and your task is to keep track of who had a coat at the beginning and who didn't. So I'm just going to show you an example where there is only one sad kid. It's easy because you can actually track it with your eyes. You can track, you can track, and then when it stops, and there is a question mark, and I ask you, did this kid have a coat or not? Was it yellow initially or blue? I hear a few yellow. Good. So most of you have a brain. (Laughter) I'm now going to ask you to do the task, but now with a little more challenging task. There are going to be three of them that are blue. Don't move your eyes. Please don't move your eyes. Keep your eyes fixated and expand, pull your attention. That's the only way you can actually do it. If you move your eyes, you're doomed. Yellow or blue? Audience: Yellow.DB: Good. So your typical normal young adult can have a span of about three or four objects of attention. That's what we just did. Your action video game player has a span of about six to seven objects of attention, which is what is shown in this video here. That's for you guys, action video game players. A bit more challenging, right? (Laughter) Yellow or blue? Blue. We have some people that are serious out there. Yeah. (Laughter)
e iso chámase conducir ben. Cando a xente vén ao laboratorio, sentámolos diante dunha pantalla e poñémoslles tarefas como esta que lles propoño agora. Van ver caras marelas ledas e algunhas caras azuis tristes. Son nenos no recreo, en Xenebra no inverno. Os máis deles están ledos. É o recreo. Pero algúns están tristes e azuis porque esqueceron o abrigo. Todos empezan a moverse, e a súa tarefa é identificar aos que tiñan abrigo ao comezo e aos que non. Voulles poñer un exemplo no que só hai un neno triste. É doado, poden seguilo coa vista. Ségueno e, cando para, aparece unha interrogación e pregúntolles: este neno levaba ou non o abrigo? Era marelo ou azul ao comezo? Oio algúns marelos. Ben. A maioría teñen cerebro. Ímolo facer de novo, pero agora un pouco máis difícil. Vai haber tres azuis. Non movan os ollos. Por favor, non movan os ollos. Mantéñanos fixos e expandan a atención. É a única forma de facelo. Se moven os ollos perden. Marelo ou azul? Público: marelo. DB: correcto. Ou sexa, que un mozo adulto típico pode atender a tres ou catro obxectos a un tempo. É o que acabamos de facer. Pero un xogador de videoxogos pode atender a seis ou sete, que son os que aparecen neste vídeo. Isto é para os videoxogadores do público. Un chisco máis difícil, non si? (Risas) Marelo ou azul? Azul. Hai algúns bos entre o público, si.
Good. So in the same way that we actually see the effects of video games on people's behavior, we can use brain imaging and look at the impact of video games on the brain, and we do find many changes, but the main changes are actually to the brain networks that control attention. So one part is the parietal cortex which is very well known to control the orientation of attention. The other one is the frontal lobe, which controls how we sustain attention, and another one is the anterior cingulate, which controls how we allocate and regulate attention and resolve conflict. Now, when we do brain imaging, we find that all three of these networks are actually much more efficient in people that play action games.
Ben. Igual que estamos a ver os efectos dos videoxogos na conduta, podemos usar a neuroimaxe para estudar o impacto dos videoxogos no cerebro. E atopamos moitos cambios, pero os máis importantes están nas redes neuronais de control da atención. Unha parte é córtex parietal, que controla a orientación da atención. Outra é lobo frontal, que controla o mantemento da atención, e outra o xiro cingular anterior, que controla cómo localizamos e regulamos a atención e resolvemos os conflitos. Coa neuroimaxe atopamos que estas tres redes son moito máis eficientes na xente que xoga a videoxogos de acción.
This actually leads me to a rather counterintuitive finding in the literature about technology and the brain. You all know about multitasking. You all have been faulty of multitasking when you're driving and you pick up your cellphone. Bad idea. Very bad idea. Why? Because as your attention shifts to your cell phone, you are actually losing the capacity to react swiftly to the car braking in front of you, and so you're much more likely to get engaged into a car accident. Now, we can measure that kind of skills in the lab. We obviously don't ask people to drive around and see how many car accidents they have. That would be a little costly proposition. But we design tasks on the computer where we can measure, to millisecond accuracy, how good they are at switching from one task to another. When we do that, we actually find that people that play a lot of action games are really, really good. They switch really fast, very swiftly. They pay a very small cost.
O que nos leva a un resultado contraintuitivo na literatura sobre a tecnoloxía e o cerebro. Todos vostedes oíron falar da multitarefa. Todos caen nela cando conducen e collen o móbil. Mala idea, moi mala. Por que? Porque cando a atención se desvía cara ao móbil, Pérdese capacidade para reaccionar con rapidez cando o coche de diante frea, e aumenta o risco de ter un accidente. No laboratorio podemos medir este tipo de habilidades. Claro que non lle pedimos á xente que conduza para ver cantos accidentes teñen. Iso sería un tanto caro. Pero deseñamos probas de ordenador coas que medimos, con precisión de milisegundos o bos que son cambiando dunha tarefa a outra. Cando o facemos, atopamos que a xente que xoga a xogos de acción e moi, moi boa. Cambian moi rápido. E cun custo moi baixo.
Now I'd like you to remember that result, and put it in the context of another group of technology users, a group which is actually much revered by society, which are people that engage in multimedia-tasking. What is multimedia-tasking? It's the fact that most of us, most of our children, are engaged with listening to music at the same time as they're doing search on the web at the same time as they're chatting on Facebook with their friends. That's a multimedia-tasker. There was a first study done by colleagues at Stanford and that we replicated that showed that those people that identify as being high multimedia-taskers are absolutely abysmal at multitasking. When we measure them in the lab, they're really bad.
Agora quero que lembren este resultado e pensen nel en relación con outro grupo de usuarios de novas tecnoloxías, un grupo moi admirado nesta sociedade, a xente multitarefa con distintos medios. Que é ser multitarefa? É o que fan moitos de vostedes, moitos dos nosos fillos, que escoitan música ao tempo que navegan por internet e que charlan no Facebook cos amigos. Iso é ser multitarefa. Uns colegas de Stanford fixeron un estudo que nós replicamos, e que amosa que a xente que se identifica como multitarefa en realidade son moi malos niso. Cando os medimos no laboratorio, son realmente malos.
Right? So these kinds of results really makes two main points. The first one is that not all media are created equal. You can't compare the effect of multimedia-tasking and the effect of playing action games. They have totally different effects on different aspects of cognition, perception and attention. Even within video games, I'm telling you right now about these action-packed video games. Different video games have a different effect on your brains. So we actually need to step into the lab and really measure what is the effect of each video game.
Ben, pois estes resultados demostran dúas cousas. A primeira é que non todos os medios son iguais. Non se pode comparar o efecto da multitarefa co dos videoxogos de acción. Teñen efectos totalmente distintos en diferentes aspectos da cognición, a percepción e a atención. Mesmo entre os videoxogos, eu estoulles a falar dos de acción. Distintos videoxogos teñen efectos distintos no cerebro. Así que temos que ir ao laboratorio e medir o efecto de cada un deles.
The other lesson is that general wisdom carries no weight. I showed that to you already, like we looked at the fact that despite a lot of screen time, those action gamers have a lot of very good vision, etc. Here, what was really striking is that these undergraduates that actually report engaging in a lot of high multimedia-tasking are convinced they aced the test. So you show them their data, you show them they are bad and they're like, "Not possible." You know, they have this sort of gut feeling that, really, they are doing really, really good. That's another argument for why we need to step into the lab and really measure the impact of technology on the brain.
A outra lección é que o saber popular non sempre acerta. Como veño de explicarlles, podemos ver que malia pasar tanto tempo diante da pantalla os videoxogadores de acción teñen boa vista. Pero o realmente rechamante é que eses estudantes que se autodefinen como multitarefa están convencidos de que bordaron o test. Así que cando lles amosas os datos, o malos que son, din "Imposible!". Están convencidos de que o fixeron moi ben. Esta é outra razón pola que convén pasar ao laboratorio e medir o impacto da tecnoloxía sobre o cerebro.
Now in a sense, when we think about the effect of video games on the brain, it's very similar to the effect of wine on the health. There are some very poor uses of wine. There are some very poor uses of video games. But when consumed in reasonable doses, and at the right age, wine can be very good for health. There are actually specific molecules that have been identified in red wine as leading to greater life expectancy. So it's the same way, like those action video games have a number of ingredients that are actually really powerful for brain plasticity, learning, attention, vision, etc., and so we need and we're working on understanding what are those active ingredients so that we can really then leverage them to deliver better games, either for education or for rehabilitation of patients.
Dalgún xeito, podemos pensar que o efecto dos videoxogos no cerebro é semellante ao efecto do viño sobre a saúde. Hai formas moi prexudiciais de beber. E hainas tamén no uso dos videoxogos. Pero consumido en doses razoables, e á idade adecuada, pode ser bo para a saúde. De feito hai certas moléculas no viño tinto que parecen aumentar a esperanza de vida. Do mesmo xeito, os videoxogos de acción teñen certos ingredientes moi bos para a plasticidade cerebral, a aprendizaxe, a atención, a visión, etc. así que o que necesitamos e o que estamos a facer é identificar cales son eses ingredientes de modo que poidamos aproveitalos para crear videoxogos no campo da educación ou da rehabilitación de doentes.
Now because we are interested in having an impact for education or rehabilitation of patients, we are actually not that interested in how those of you that choose to play video games for many hours on end perform. I'm much more interested in taking any of you and showing that by forcing you to play an action game, I can actually change your vision for the better, whether you want to play that action game or not, right? That's the point of rehabilitation or education. Most of the kids don't go to school saying, "Great, two hours of math!"
Posto que o que nos interesa é mellorar a educación ou a rehabilitación, non nos interesan aqueles de vostedes que xogan durante horas e horas. Interésanos mais convencer a algúns de vostedes de que xogando a videoxogos de acción pode mellorarlle a vista tanto se lle gusta xogar como se non. Aí está a cousa na rehabilitación ou na educación. A maioría dos nenos non van á escola dicindo "Xenial, dúas horas de matemáticas!"
So that's really the crux of the research, and to do that, we need to go one more step. And one more step is to do training studies. So let me illustrate that step with a task which is called mental rotation. Mental rotation is a task where I'm going to ask you, and again you're going to do the task, to look at this shape. Study it, it's a target shape, and I'm going to present to you four different shapes. One of these four different shapes is actually a rotated version of this shape. I want you to tell me which one: the first one, second one, third one or fourth one? Okay, I'll help you. Fourth one. One more. Get those brains working. Come on. That's our target shape. Third. Good! This is hard, right? Like, the reason that I asked you to do that is because you really feel your brain cringing, right? It doesn't really feel like playing mindless action video games.
Así que este é o reto da investigación, e para conseguilo temos que avanzar outro paso. Ese outro paso é facer estudos de adestramento. Deixen que lles explique este paso cunha tarefa que chamamos de rotación mental. A rotación mental é unha tarefa, na que lles pedimos, e voulles poñer a tarefa aquí, que miren para esta figura; estúdena, é a figura obxectivo, e agora preséntolles outras catro figuras. Unha é unha imaxe rotada da primeira. E teñen que dicirme cal delas é: A primeira, a segunda, a terceira ou a cuarta? Vale, axúdolles: é a cuarta. Outra vez. Poñan os cerebros a funcionar. Esta é a figura obxectivo. A terceira. Correcto! É difícil, non si? Púxenlles esta proba porque con ela nótase como renxe o cerebro.
Well, what we do in these training studies is, people come to the lab, they do tasks like this one, we then force them to play 10 hours of action games. They don't play 10 hours of action games in a row. They do distributed practice, so little shots of 40 minutes several days over a period of two weeks. Then, once they are done with the training, they come back a few days later and they are tested again on a similar type of mental rotation task. So this is work from a colleague in Toronto. What they showed is that, initially, you know, subjects perform where they are expected to perform given their age. After two weeks of training on action video games, they actually perform better, and the improvement is still there five months after having done the training. That's really, really important. Why? Because I told you we want to use these games for education or for rehabilitation. We need to have effects that are going to be long-lasting.
Non é como eses videoxogos de acción sen sentido. Ben, o que facemos nos estudos de adestramento é traer á xente ao laboratorio a facer tarefas como esta, Logo obrigámolos a xogar a videoxogos de acción durante dez horas. Non xogan dez horas seguidas. Xogan durante intervalos de 40 minutos varios días ao longo de dúas semanas. Despois deste adestramento, volven uns días máis tarde e fan de novo a tarefa de rotación mental. Este estudo fíxoo un colega de Toronto. E amosou que, inicialmente, os participantes renderon na tarefa como se esperaba de acordo á súa idade. Despois das dúas semanas de adestramento cos videoxogos de acción, fixérono mellor, e a melloría seguía presente cinco meses despois. Isto é realmente importante. Por que? porque se queremos usar estes xogos para a educación e para a rehabilitación, necesitamos saber qué efectos teñen a longo prazo.
Now, at this point, a number of you are probably wondering well, what are you waiting for, to put on the market a game that would be good for the attention of my grandmother and that she would actually enjoy, or a game that would be great to rehabilitate the vision of my grandson who has amblyopia, for example?
Chegado este punto, moitos de vostedes estarán preguntándose qué esperamos para lanzar ao mercado un xogo que mellore a atención da miña avoa e co que ademais se divirta. ou un xogo xenial para rehabilitar a vista do meu neto que ten ambliopía, por exemplo.
Well, we're working on it, but here is a challenge. There are brain scientists like me that are beginning to understand what are the good ingredients in games to promote positive effects, and that's what I'm going to call the broccoli side of the equation. There is an entertainment software industry which is extremely deft at coming up with appealing products that you can't resist. That's the chocolate side of the equation. The issue is we need to put the two together, and it's a little bit like with food. Who really wants to eat chocolate-covered broccoli? None of you. (Laughter) And you probably have had that feeling, right, picking up an education game and sort of feeling, hmm, you know, it's not really fun, it's not really engaging. So what we need is really a new brand of chocolate, a brand of chocolate that is irresistible, that you really want to play, but that has all the ingredients, the good ingredients that are extracted from the broccoli that you can't recognize but are still working on your brains. And we're working on it, but it takes brain scientists to come and to get together, people that work in the entertainment software industry, and publishers, so these are not people that usually meet every day, but it's actually doable, and we are on the right track. I'd like to leave you with that thought, and thank you for your attention. (Applause) (Applause)
Ben, estamos a traballar niso, pero aquí topamos cun reto. Hai neurocientíficos coma min que empezamos a entender cales son os ingredientes bos dos videoxogos para promover efectos positivos, o que eu chamo o lado brócoli da ecuación. Hai unha industria do software de entretemento extremadamente eficaz lanzando produtos aos que non podemos resistirnos. É o lado chocolate da ecuación. A cousa é que necesitamos xuntalos, e vén sendo como coa comida. A quen lle gusta o brócoli con chocolate? A ninguén. E seguro que tiveron esa sensación ao xogar cun xogo educativo, esa sensación de, mmm, non é entretido, non engancha. O que precisamos é unha marca nova de chocolate, unha marca irresistible, á que de verdade queiramos xogar pero que teña todos os bos ingredientes do brócoli, que non o notemos pero que funcionen no cerebro. Estamos traballando niso, pero iso require xuntar aos neurocientíficos coa xente da industria do software de entretemento e cos editores, e esa non é xente que se xunte habitualmente. Pero é posible, e estamos nesa liña. Gustaríame que queden con esa idea, e grazas pola súa atención. (Aplausos) (Aplausos)