And so that was why I was sort of in support of I hate calling you the trans man, that just sounds like so. Well, I yeah. Matty, would you what would you call it? Yeah. I mean, in my mind, I think that's really what it is. Hey, I'm Dylan Marron, and welcome back to conversations with people who hate me, the show where I move negative online conversations from inboxes, comment sections and social media posts to phone calls. Now, sometimes I speak one on one with people who have said negative things about me on the Internet. And other times I share this platform with people who have received their own digital negativity in this episode. I'm connecting to people who didn't know each other before this call. Their relationship is through me. My first guest, Tyler Gilmore, is my husband's cousin and the other guest, Matty Macara, is the wife of my childhood babysitter. Why am I collecting them? Well, it comes down to one topic, the proposed ban of transgender folks serving in the military in a since deleted Facebook post. Tyler, a veteran of the Marines, publicly expressed his support of the band. Maty is also a veteran of the Marines, and she recently came out as a trans woman first. I'll speak one on one with Tyler, then I'll speak one on one with Matty, and after that, I'll connect them to each other. So let's get started. Hi, Tyler. Hello, how are you? Good, I'm doing good. You are a veteran? Yes. And a Marine? Yes. OK, so what made you want to join the Marines? I, I mean, there, there's like a plethora of reasons why I wanted to join. I come from kind of like a poor family and I wanted to explore the world and get out of, you know, the small town of Middleton, Idaho. And I also was kind of like trying to come out of the closet at the same time. And so it was like this. I thought in my head, I thought, like, if I joined the Marine Corps, you know, part of me was like, it'll turn me into a man like, quote unquote. And and then the other part of me was like, oh, I'll be the first Marine to serve openly gay. Obviously wasn't true at the time. I just was unaware. But you were like. But it was not. Yeah, I was like, oh, just get that record . Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. And it was it was a good choice. I mean ultimately I'm the first person, you know, in my immediate family to even get a degree. And so it ended up being very, very. Yeah, very good for me. What was it like being in the Marines? It's very intense. And like right in the beginning, bootcamp was really challenging. I definitely cried a few times. Everybody cries of boot camp and they say they didn't. And but this is the truth. Exactly. And so, like, you know, like middle of the night, like no one's looking, you know, like you kind of just like, you know, you sob. Yeah. Like like deep, deep sobbing. So, yeah, it was it was I always when people ask me, I always say I was like very intense with some of the best and worst experiences of my life. And it taught me amazing lessons. I think a lot of times in the United States we do live in this very small bubble of like very safe bubble for the most part, but going to places like war torn nations that really I almost feel like everybody should have to go and see something like that because it is so intense and it is so Eye-Opening. And it really changes your view on everything from like how you view your family to all of your friends, how you view objects. Like I just don't view objects the same anymore. Like none of that seems to matter since I came back. And you mean like material? Yeah. Materialistic stuff. Yeah. And I'm in what's called inactive service. OK, so if you know shit hits the fan, they're going to call back someone like me and people who have who's inactive right now. Exactly. And so what have you been doing in your inactive duty time? Well, the first thing I did when I got out, I took some college courses when I was in, I just I was in a combat battalion and we just could not do courses. I wanted to do school so that enough to do it. So when I got out, I immediately went to a community college in Bellingham, Washington. Yeah. And so about, you know, into my second year of college, I started applying to schools and I got accepted into Cornell, which was across the country. And I once I got ice cream on my back. Right. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. And I packed my bag and my whole car. My apartment up. Yeah. And drove cross-country. Yeah. That's where I'm at. OK, right now to bring this into a more macro conversation, July of 2017, Trump announces the trans ban in the military. And your feelings about that were that tweet. I was absolutely against the tweet. Like it's not necessary to say something like that. So I. I was not for that. Yeah. You know, is it, you know, a good thing to have transgenders in the military? Does it does it affect the overall readiness? OK, so in a since deleted Facebook post, you expressed support for the ban, not the tweet, but the ban. Why why did you write that post? I saw, like, outrage on the left, right. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, how dare you do something like that ? I was annoyed that the left was reacting like this when there's so when I felt like they were so opposed to the military industrial complex in general. A lot of my friends on the left are like just so mad at me that I could even think that maybe it would be a good idea to have a ban on transgenders and. And that was just my opinion, and I was like, well, I mean, they're not inclusive and they're not equitable. Yes, that's not the point of the military's point, is to be a fighting force to kill you when people started pushing back on you for that post. How did you start to feel? I mean, I don't know. I mean, I didn't feel I wasn't I I mean, I wasn't upset, you know, but I was just kind of like. Like, lay off me, most of them weren't even military members, and that's what's irritating. It was like people who had never even experienced the military and have no idea what it's like to be under the pressure of combat. And then they're coming at me being like, we need to do this and this. And I'm just like, shut the fuck up. And where do you stand now on it? Are you pro the trans ban? I'm honestly just still confused about it. Like, I, I don't want to be against it, but and I and I want to be for it because I want to I want everybody to feel, you know, a part of this country. I don't want them to feel left out. But it is really complicated because I do feel like there is a lot of issues that come on board with that. Like I looked up like, how long does it take to transition? What are like the what happens when someone does transition? I watch a few YouTube videos and and so my thing is, if someone comes in and they're trans with the hope to transition in the military, that that makes them inoperable for like six months to a year is what I read because of, like hormone treatment. And then if they get the surgery on top of that, then you're getting hormone treatment, which, you know, affects your brain. I mean, steroids are illegal and you can't take those. And a lot of that is because of the reactions that you have, not only like metabolically, but and steroids are illegal and they are illegal in the Marines, in the military in general. And so that was my thing. Like, I think it's and then and then when they're I mean, yeah, I guess it have a lot of no questions. And so so but that's what an amazing place to start. Yeah. Like questions are are a great thing to have. So did you know any trans Marines. Not a single one that I served with. I never met a single one. You know, anybody in the Marines know. OK, so we can change that right now. Cool. Yeah. Look at you Marines. Yeah. Wow. Hello. Hi, Maddy. Hi, how are you? I'm good. How are you doing? Pretty good. Somebody in only as many details as you're comfortable sharing. Tell me about you. Well, I grew up in a small town in Massachusetts and a conservative family. We went to church, a lot of Pentecostal, a Christian. And I was this sort of solitary kid with long hair. I spent almost all my time either playing sax and guitar or skateboarding. Oh, and I use those as like my outlets for getting my frustration out a lot. And what are you seeking an outlet from? I feel like I didn't know myself at all. I couldn't see myself in the future. I couldn't see myself in the present. I didn't really want to go into college right away. I was thinking like just an adventure into the unknown might be best for me because I am sort of an unknowable person. So. So I decided to join the Marines as a musician. Well, even though I knew almost nothing about the Marines and this was right out of high school. Yep. What was the introduction to the Marines like? All Marines have to go through a three month boot camp, combat training. So it was a lot of hard work. Yeah, there's a ton of work, but it really was an adventure. I got to travel the country. I became a leader very early. I was a sergeant. Oh, wow. Before my 21st birthday. Oh, my God. Things that I learned there have kind of propelled me through the past 20 years. The core values in the Marines honor, courage and commitment and integrity. Those things, especially now I'm really feeling them at my core and they define me in a big way. Mm hmm. How are you using honor, courage and commitment right now? I really feel like, you know, I'm honoring my friends and family and others out there who have, you know, struggled with who they are through the years by being myself now coming out as a trans woman. It's funny because sometimes I think I'm sort of like one of those Bourne Identity movies where the government taught me these values. Little did they know that one day I would use them to live openly as a trans woman. And, yeah, that's that's kind of beautiful. What was the coming out process like? Well, you know, after I left, the Marines had an epiphany a few years ago that, you know, life is really short. It's about living your life. That's who you are with integrity and, you know, being an example of that for sure, for your kids. And I have a daughter. So there was a huge shift in me when I felt that and I knew I had to come out and it wasn't even a question. I just knew I had to do it. It was a really magical moment, too, because now it became a challenge and it was, oh, oh, you think this is impossible ? Wait and see because, yeah, I am coming for you life and yeah. I'm going to slay this thing. Yeah. Oh my God. That's so beautiful. Wow. How has it felt to live out loud and proudly as as a trans woman? It's been amazing. It was hard going right up to that moment. And I, I didn't know how people would react. I knew people would be surprised. But I wasn't expecting to be surprised myself by the reactions because I just got a ton of support and love. Hmm. That's wonderful. A lot of people. Yeah. People I served in the Marines with. And then I also was in the Air National Guard and people have been amazing. So last July, when Trump suddenly announced this trans ban in the military, where were you when that happened and how did it feel to see that? I think I was at work, I think and I heard the news had sort of a swirl of thoughts and feelings in the wake of that. I served for 16 years in the military, you know, and that's not a small thing. So, you know, I come from it. I come to it from that perspective and know everybody thinks of the phrase once a Marine, always a Marine. If you're a Marine, it's the. Because it's almost like an unsentimental fact. Yeah, it's just it is what it is, just like you are a Marine. A Marine. Yeah, that's that's just the way. It's just a fact. So, you know, the. The placement I have in my heart. For the Marines. Is right next to the place I have in my heart, where I feel in my core that I'm trans. Yeah, and there's sort of like two sides of the same coin because, you know, the courage and integrity I learned in the military are things I use every day. Hmm. And that have really given me the opportunity, I feel like to me to do this thing now. Did you interact with any people who vocally supported the ban? No, I really haven't done that. I've steered clear of that. So you are about to talk to someone who did, at least at one point, vocally support the trans ban. How are you feeling? I'm feeling pretty good. You know, it's a little nerve wracking, I guess, because I don't really do that, like talk to people and about issues like this and sort of steer clear of that. And, you know, I do kind of take my example, just like being myself and and being in in the lives of my friends and family. That has some effect that I hope. Mm hmm. Well, do you do you feel ready to have this conversation? Yeah, I think so. OK. All right. Well, let's do. Great. Hi, Maddie. Hello, how are you, Maddie? Can you hear us at an OK level? Yep, you sound sort of reverby, but it's probably like a speakerphone or something. We are on speakerphone, but it's just for recording purposes. Are you OK with that? No, I have to back out. I'm sorry. OK. All right. Well, thank you so much. So to kind of kick things off, Maddie, can you talk to Tyler about your history and time in the Marines? Sure. Join the Marines and ninety seven. And I had a unique job in the Marines as a musician, but went to boot camp, combat training, everything Marines do. So, you know, in a single day, we could spend hours on a really delicate piece of music and then go and, you know, firearm training, gas chamber, you know, physical fitness. But it was a lot of hard work. And now, just so you can hear, Tyler, tell me about your experience in the Marines. Sure. I was 35, 31 motor vehicle operator. And so when we deployed, we did route clearance, we did security, we did logistics. You know, a lot of it was just like prepping a lot of convoys, a lot of like, you know, weapons, maintenance and training and, you know, probably a lot of the same things that you did. Gas chamber, too. What does that mean? That sounds terrifying. If you wanted to take out that. What what's that? Well, I mean, gas chamber training, you go and you're in this enclosed space and they released tear gas and you have to do a series of things. And if you do them correctly, then and you get out of there, you'll be fine. You'll get to it. But if you can't operate your gas mask correctly or you don't breathe, you know, as you should make you nervous, then a few seconds after getting in there, you're crawling for the door. Yeah, that's that'll fuck you up. So, OK, this is great to know. So I also now wanted to bring up you both very bravely came out as identities, one of which was not and one of which now is not necessarily welcome in the military. Tyler, I want to start with you. You came out as gay. Yeah. Yeah, I did. I remember when Don't Ask, Don't Tell was repealed. I was deployed and it was right then. Yeah , it was. And somebody ran up to me with a newspaper that had this image of a male Marine jumping on another male marine kissing him. Yeah. And the Hawaii hangar bay. I remember that . Yes. It was an iconic photo. Yeah. Then I tried to come out and my best friend at the time, he abandoned me. I mean, he stopped being my friend entirely. And this was in a combat environment. Well, and I just went into like a very deep depression and I didn't want to come out then when I came back out of deployment. I just couldn't I like wanted to come out and don't ask, don't tell was repealed, so I knew I would. Yeah, so and just so people know how that works. Don't ask, don't tell was a policy implemented by Clinton. Yeah, right. That was saying you're welcome to be gay in the military as long as you don't tell anyone. I think that's I think that's a little bit too generous that way too generous. It was like during, during when don't ask don't tell was was in place. People were getting kicked out quite often, like I remember even being in when it was don't ask, don't tell. I remember them like my sergeant coming out and just saying, like, if if if any of you guys get caught, you know, no, no. We're going to find you faggots like blah, blah, blah. Oh, fuck. Oh yeah. And he's like, even though it might be repealed here in the next couple of years, I just know that if we catch you, you know , being a fag before then, then you're out. And I remember like my my fists, like my palms like sweat. And I was just like, oh my God, oh, my God. I mean, so this is a really important thing we're hitting on right now, which is that like policy is affecting how people are treated. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So Mattey, you were serving in the time when Don't Ask, Don't Tell was law, right ? That's right. What was the kind of vibe under Don't Ask, Don't Tell? I did actually have very close friends in the Marines who are gay to either told me at the time or later, were they nervous? We didn't talk about it. Yeah, right. But that's the name of the policy. Yeah. Yeah. How have you been treated as a gay Marine, both in the Marines and and beyond? When when I did come out, obviously the first time in Afghanistan, it was like, yeah, it was bad. It was not good. That was when the losing a friend, losing and losing a friend was not it was not ideal. Then then when I came out in Hawaii, when I got back, it was actually like one of the most beautiful experiences of my life. I yeah, I came out to my my like one of my best friends and he looked at me and it was just like the sweetest. They just like had this smile. And it is like to be like, well, yeah. And I was like, yeah, I'm gay. And he was just like like, why didn't you tell me? Like, I am I the first person? And I was like, yeah, he's like, well thank God. Like that was all. He was like, yeah, you'd be the first person. Yeah. And then the rest of my and then of course you know, they're Marines and I know that he knows about this. Like they asked the most inappropriate questions you could possibly imagine, you know, like do you like to take it up. But yeah, blah blah blah blah blah, all that stuff. And I would answer and then like most thoroughly disgusting and descriptive ways that they would feel uncomfortable. You're going to ask me that question. You're going to get the fucking answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah. Yeah. But no, I mean overall it was very well received and I had I felt more love from my command for coming out than I did from sadly my own family. I love them, you know, but like that's really how I felt. I felt like they were much more accepting. So Matty, I know you didn't come out as trans when you were in the Marines, but once a Marine, always a Marine. So you came out as a Marine. So what was your coming out process after the Marines? I was in the Air National Guard for twelve years and it was even after that. And I came out, but I just sort of I didn't think I could ever come out. It didn't seem like anything I could even fathom happening. I just thought, you know, people would. Lose their minds, basically. And one skill I learned in the Marines is to suck it up. Nobody ever told me that explicitly, like there wasn't a drill instructor. I said, if you think you're transgender. Right. Right. He did call us ladies a lot. And you were like, OK, I'm into this. It's the nicest thing they ever said to me. Yeah. And so the reason we're on this call is that in in a since deleted Facebook posts that I actually haven't seen, Tyler wrote in support of the trans men and then got a lot of pushback. So. So, Tyler, why did you delete. Yeah, that's a good question. I felt honestly, I felt like this is going to be brutally honest. I'm like applying for jobs and I really didn't want this to be something that inhibited my ability to get a job. Sure. I basically said that I thought I thought it was ridiculous that the left was kind of arguing in favor of having trans people be able to serve when they're so ardently against the military industrial complex in the first place. And then later on, like, you know, people commented back on their, you know, like I was a bigot and stuff like that. And that's when I started getting into more intricate arguments in the comments, which were like, well, what about the Rand report? We all know the comment section is the greatest place to have nuanced conversations. Yeah, right. Really nice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I guess my my thing was like I thought about when I came out in the Marines and when I was deployed and there was a point when I was so depressed that I wanted to kill myself. And I thought, what if someone was transitioning when they're in the military, you know? So I mean, even if they're not deployed like you're in the Marines to marry, like, you know how stressful the Marines is in general. So I thought, like, what would that have been like? Because arguably, like coming out as trans, especially now, is much more challenging than coming out as gay, like. And so that was that was what I what why I was sort of in support of of I hate calling it the man that just sounds like so I mean, like I mean but I feel like it is. Well, I yeah. I mean, I think. Matty, would you what would you call it. Do you call it the transmen. Yeah. I mean in my mind I think that's really what it is. OK, so, so to, to kind of sum this up, the, the kind of feeling you had Tylor was. I'm against these tweets, but I am for this ban because of the research I'm reading. Yeah, yeah. And what were these sources for? You said it's the Rand, so it's Rand something report which kind of outlined the budget. And then, you know, I just looked up like. Basic information about, you know, how long it takes to transition and what what what hormone therapy does to to people. And so I thought men like maybe it would be better if trans people weren't able to serve because, I mean, am I even helped them out? Because that's going to be really challenging for them. But also overall readiness of the military. You know, it comes to like a strong military. I think it's you know, it doesn't make the military more strong to ask people to hide what they are because, you know, that's an exhausting thing to do. And it's also sort of goes against what I consider the greatest values in the military, the integrity of the members. So, you know, I think it might actually make the military weaker to ask trans people to hide who they are and trans people. I mean, they they aren't monolithic. You know, some trans people don't up for any medical intervention and some due to varying degrees. I mean, I guess I just always thought I didn't think that that trans people didn't. I just kind of viewed them all as. Wanting to transition ? Yeah, I just I didn't I guess I just didn't really know that there were people in the trans community that maybe didn't. Yeah, I mean, transition means different things to different people. I think, unfortunately, you know, issues surrounding trans people are made out to be political issues. That's sort of how they're they're filtered down into what people hear about trans people. But I don't actually think it's a political issue. You know, I was talking about don't ask, don't tell earlier. And you were saying, like, the policy sounds better than it is because like, yes, in theory, don't ask, don't tell is like just stay closeted, but you can be gay. And in theory, the trans ban like you were expressing Tyler, is like, well, it doesn't make sense on paper in this way . That is presented to me. And I'm not blaming you for that. I'm saying, like you, you were reading this report that presented trans identity in a pretty monolithic way. Yeah, right. And I think the trans ban might have the same effect. Right. When when legislation or when policy says, like, we're banning this group of people or we're literally silencing these group of people as don't ask, don't tell did, you're also leading people to kind of create biases. Yeah, right. Yeah. You know, just looking at the culture in the Marine Corps, it won't move unless it's sort of like pushed along by the leadership. Right. We started this conversation kind of just talking about the trans ban, but we've invoked don't ask, don't tell, don't ask, don't tell would not have allowed you, Tyler, to enlist in the Marines. And as we know, the trans ban would ban you, Maddie, from joining. So first, I want to ask Tyler, where would you be if you are not allowed to enlist in the Marines? Oh, that's a good question, because that is a good question. I, I could I can tell you I mean, I can tell you how good it's been for me. You know, maybe I wouldn't I wouldn't have free college. I wouldn't have lived in Hawaii. I wouldn't have traveled the world. I wouldn't have some of the friends that I have. I wouldn't have the skill sets that I have of just being able to be resilient. Yeah, I mean, it would have really harmed, like, hurt my life for sure. Yeah, definitely. Matty, same question to you. Where would you be without the Marines? I'd definitely be in a different place. It's hard to imagine because there is so formative for me. And, you know, I can trace so much back to the Marines. Yeah. I mean, life would have been much duller, I think, for sure. And having the experience of serving the Marines is unlike anything else. So it's it's hard to even imagine. I don't know. I just want to say thanks, you're the first transgender Marine I've ever met in my life. Oh, awesome. Via phone. And it's really awesome to meet you. And I don't know, I guess I just appreciate you explaining. We'll talking with me in the first place and then also, like, not, I don't know, being upset that I had questions and maybe, you know, dissenting opinions on on the part of the policy that obviously isn't in place in the first place. And I also wanted to say, like, you're super brave for serving, especially, you know, years before I did, when it was probably a much more hostile place for anybody in the LGBTQ spectrum. So I guess that's it. And thanks. Yeah, thanks. It's so awesome to meet you and hear your story. And thank you so much for coming on here and and letting me share my story, too. And, you know, I can't imagine what you went through coming out while you're deployed and just kind of have you have the bravery to do that. So that's that's where I am right now. Wow. Thanks. You know. Yeah, I think it's amazing. And yeah. Thanks for being open and discussing this stuff. I think it's definitely an open, open story. You know, we'll see where the story leads. One thing I like to think about, you know you know, I transitions myself, but I may be in the driver's seat. But I think, you know, everybody around me is a passenger. So I think, you know, we're all in this sort of story together. Yeah. So I'm hopeful. I think it's exciting and and it's just great to to get to talk about this with you. Yeah. Well, that feels like a wonderful place to leave this. Thank you both so much for being on this call. Thank you. Thank you, Don. I guess we'll all see each other on the Internet. Oh, great. OK, bye, Matty. All right. If you'd like to be a guest on this show and take your own online conversation and move it offline, please visit w w w conversations with people who hate me dot com for more information. Conversations with people who hate me is a production of my presents. Vincent Kassian is the sound engineer and mixer. Christy Grassman is the executive producer. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Rob Wilson and this podcast was created, produced and hosted by me, Dylan Meran. Special thanks to Adam Cecil, Emily Miller and our publicist Megan Larson will be releasing episodes every other week. So I'll see you in two weeks with a brand new conversation. Until then, remember, there's a human on the other side of the screen. Make it through these dark times.
