Chris Anderson: So, this is an interview with a difference. On the basis that a picture is worth a thousand words, what I did was, I asked Bill and Melinda to dig out from their archive some images that would help explain some of what they've done, and do a few things that way.
Chris Anderson: No, toto je neobyčajný rozhovor. Vzhľadom na to, že jedna fotka povie viac ako 1000 slov, som poprosil Billa a Melindu, aby zo svojho archívu vyhrabali nejaké fotky, ktoré by pomohli vysvetliť časť z toho, čo robia a aby týmto spôsobom spravili pár vecí.
So, we're going to start here. Melinda, when and where was this, and who is that handsome man next to you?
Takže začneme s týmto. Melinda, kde a kedy bolo toto a kto je ten fešák vedľa teba?
Melinda Gates: With those big glasses, huh? This is in Africa, our very first trip, the first time either of us had ever been to Africa, in the fall of 1993. We were already engaged to be married. We married a few months later, and this was the trip where we really went to see the animals and to see the savanna. It was incredible. Bill had never taken that much time off from work. But what really touched us, actually, were the people, and the extreme poverty. We started asking ourselves questions. Does it have to be like this? And at the end of the trip, we went out to Zanzibar, and took some time to walk on the beach, which is something we had done a lot while we were dating. And we'd already been talking about during that time that the wealth that had come from Microsoft would be given back to society, but it was really on that beach walk that we started to talk about, well, what might we do and how might we go about it?
Melinda Gates: S tými veľkými okuliarmi, čo? Bolo to v Afrike, naša úplne prvá cesta - pre oboch prvýkrát v Afrike - na jeseň v roku 1993. Boli sme už zasnúbení. Vzali sme sa o pár mesiacov a toto bola tá cesta, kedy sme si išli pozrieť zvieratá a savanu. Bolo to úžasné. Bill si nikdy predtým nezobral toľko voľna z práce. Ale to, čo nás naozaj zasiahlo, boli tí ľudia a tá extrémna chudoba. Začali sme si klásť otázky. Musí to byť takto? A na konci tejto cesty sme šli do Zanzibaru a urobili si čas na prechádzku po pláži, čo je niečo, čo sme počas randenia robili často. A v tom čase sme už hovorili o tom, že bohatstvo, ktoré pochádza z Microsoftu, pôjde naspäť ľudstvu, ale bolo to práve na tejto prechádzke, keď sme začali hovoriť o tom, čo a ako by sme mohli spraviť.
CA: So, given that this vacation led to the creation of the world's biggest private foundation, it's pretty expensive as vacations go. (Laughter)
CA: Takže keď táto dovolenka viedla k vzniku najväčšej súkromnej nadácie na svete, vyšla pomerne draho. (Smiech)
MG: I guess so. We enjoyed it.
MG: Asi áno. Užili sme si to.
CA: Which of you was the key instigator here, or was it symmetrical? Bill Gates: Well, I think we were excited that there'd be a phase of our life where we'd get to work together and figure out how to give this money back. At this stage, we were talking about the poorest, and could you have a big impact on them? Were there things that weren't being done? There was a lot we didn't know. Our naïveté is pretty incredible, when we look back on it. But we had a certain enthusiasm that that would be the phase, the post-Microsoft phase would be our philanthropy.
CA: Kto z vás bol hlavný riešiteľ, či bolo to symetrické? Bill Gates: No, myslím, že sme boli nadšení, že nastane fáza života, kedy budeme mať príležitosť spolupracovať a prísť na to, ako využiť tie peniaze. V tomto štádiu sme hovorili o najchudobnejších a o tom, aký veľký dosah na nich môžeme mať? Sú veci, ktoré sa nerobili a mali by sa robiť? Bolo veľa toho, čo sme nevedeli. Keď sa spätne na to pozrieme, naša naivita bola neuveriteľná. Ale mali sme istý entuziazmus, že toto bude tá fáza, tá fáza po Microsofte bude naša filantropia.
MG: Which Bill always thought was going to come after he was 60, so he hasn't quite hit 60 yet, so some things change along the way.
MG: Bill si vždycky myslel, že to príde po šesťdesiatke, 60 rokov ešte celkom nemá, takže veci sa časom menia.
CA: So it started there, but it got accelerated. So that was '93, and it was '97, really, before the foundation itself started.
CA: Takže vtedy to začalo a udalosti nabrali spád. Bolo to v 93-ťom a až v 97-mom vznikla samotná nadácia.
MA: Yeah, in '97, we read an article about diarrheal diseases killing so many kids around the world, and we kept saying to ourselves, "Well that can't be. In the U.S., you just go down to the drug store." And so we started gathering scientists and started learning about population, learning about vaccines, learning about what had worked and what had failed, and that's really when we got going, was in late 1998, 1999.
MG: Áno, v 97-mom sme čítali článok o tom, ako hnačka vo svete zabíja toľko detí a stále sme si hovorili: "To predsa nemôže byť pravda. V USA stačí zájsť do lekárne." A tak sme začali zhromažďovať vedcov a začali sme sa vzdelávať o obyvateľstve, o očkovaniach, vzdelávať o tom, čo fungovalo a čo nie a vtedy sme sa skutočne rozbehli, to bolo koncom roku 1998, 1999.
CA: So, you've got a big pot of money and a world full of so many different issues. How on Earth do you decide what to focus on?
CA: Takže máte mešec plný dukátov a svet plný rozličných problémov. Ako sa pre pána kráľa rozhodnete, na čo sa zamerať?
BG: Well, we decided that we'd pick two causes, whatever the biggest inequity was globally, and there we looked at children dying, children not having enough nutrition to ever develop, and countries that were really stuck, because with that level of death, and parents would have so many kids that they'd get huge population growth, and that the kids were so sick that they really couldn't be educated and lift themselves up. So that was our global thing, and then in the U.S., both of us have had amazing educations, and we saw that as the way that the U.S. could live up to its promise of equal opportunity is by having a phenomenal education system, and the more we learned, the more we realized we're not really fulfilling that promise. And so we picked those two things, and everything the foundation does is focused there.
BG: No, rozhodli sme sa, že vyberieme dva účely, čokoľvek, čo bola najväčšia nespravodlivosť na svete, a tam sme sa pozreli na zomierajúce deti, deti, ktoré nemajú dostatok výživy na akýkoľvek vývoj, a na krajiny v slepej uličke, pretože s takou úrovňou úmrtnosti a rodičmi, ktorí majú tak veľa detí, že krajiny majú obrovský nárast populácie a že tie deti sú tak choré, že naozaj nemohli byť vzdelané a pozdvihnúť sa z biedy. Takže to bola naša celosvetová záležitosť a potom v USA, obaja máme skvelé vzdelanie a videli sme, že cesta, ako by USA mohlo dodržať svôj sľub rovnakej príležitosti, vedie cez skvelý vzdelávací systém a čím viac sme to skúmali, tým viac sme zisťovali, že tento sľub nespĺňame. Takže sme vybrali tieto dve veci a všetko, čomu sa nadácia venuje, sa zameriava na ne.
CA: So, I asked each of you to pick an image that you like that illustrates your work, and Melinda, this is what you picked. What's this about?
CA: Poprosil som vás oboch, aby ste vybrali fotku, ktorú máte radi, ktorá ilustruje vašu činnosť a Melinda, ty si vybrala túto. O čo sa jedná?
MG: So I, one of the things I love to do when I travel is to go out to the rural areas and talk to the women, whether it's Bangladesh, India, lots of countries in Africa, and I go in as a Western woman without a name. I don't tell them who I am. Pair of khakis. And I kept hearing from women, over and over and over, the more I traveled, "I want to be able to use this shot." I would be there to talk to them about childhood vaccines, and they would bring the conversation around to "But what about the shot I get?" which is an injection they were getting called Depo-Provera, which is a contraceptive. And I would come back and talk to global health experts, and they'd say, "Oh no, contraceptives are stocked in in the developing world." Well, you had to dig deeper into the reports, and this is what the team came to me with, which is, to have the number one thing that women tell you in Africa they want to use stocked out more than 200 days a year explains why women were saying to me, "I walked 10 kilometers without my husband knowing it, and I got to the clinic, and there was nothing there." And so condoms were stocked in in Africa because of all the AIDS work that the U.S. and others supported. But women will tell you over and over again, "I can't negotiate a condom with my husband. I'm either suggesting he has AIDS or I have AIDS, and I need that tool because then I can space the births of my children, and I can feed them and have a chance of educating them."
MG: No, jedna z vecí, ktoré zbožňujem, keď cestujem, je ísť na vidiek a rozprávať sa so ženami, či je to Bangladéš, India, kopa krajín v Afrike a idem tam ako žena zo Západu bez mena. Nepoviem im, kto som. Jedny kaki nohavice. A stále mi ženy hovorili, dookola a dookola a dookola, čím viac som cestovala: "Chcem mať možnosť použiť túto injekciu." Som tam, aby som im povedala o očkovaní detí, a oni otočia konverzáciu na: "A čo tá injekcia, ktorú dostanem ja?" Majú na mysli injekciu, ktorú dostávali a volá sa Depo-Provera, je to antikoncepcia. A ja som sa vrátila domov a oslovila svetových odborníkov na zdravie a tí mi povedali: "Ó nie, rozvojový svet je zásobený antikoncepciou." No, bolo treba poriadne preveriť štúdie a to, s čím za mnou prišiel tím, je, že najdôležitejšia vec, o ktorej vám ženy v Afrike hovoria, že ju chcú používať, nie je na sklade viac ako 200 dní v roku, čo vysvetľuje, prečo mi ženy hovorili: "Prešla som 10 kilometrov bez vedomia môjho manžela, prišla som do nemocnice a nič tam nebolo". Vďaka všetkému úsiliu ohľadom AIDS, ktoré podporovali USA a ostatní, je v Afrike zásoba kondómov. Ale ženy vám dookola hovoria: "Nemôžem sa s manželom o kondóme baviť. Buď naznačujem, že on má AIDS, alebo že ja mám AIDS, a ja predsa potrebujem tú možnosť, aby som načasovala pôrody mojich detí a mohla ich živiť a mala možnosť dať im vzdelanie."
CA: Melinda, you're Roman Catholic, and you've often been embroiled in controversy over this issue, and on the abortion question, on both sides, really. How do you navigate that?
CA: Melinda, si rímo-katolíčka a často si sa ohľadom tohto a ohľadom otázky potratov dostala do sporov. Vlastne ohľadom obidvoch. Ako sa s tým vyrovnávaš?
MG: Yeah, so I think that's a really important point, which is, we had backed away from contraceptives as a global community. We knew that 210 million women were saying they wanted access to contraceptives, even the contraceptives we have here in the United States, and we weren't providing them because of the political controversy in our country, and to me that was just a crime, and I kept looking around trying to find the person that would get this back on the global stage, and I finally realized I just had to do it. And even though I'm Catholic, I believe in contraceptives just like most of the Catholic women in the United States who report using contraceptives, and I shouldn't let that controversy be the thing that holds us back. We used to have consensus in the United States around contraceptives, and so we got back to that global consensus, and actually raised 2.6 billion dollars around exactly this issue for women. (Applause)
MG: Áno, myslím si, že veľmi doležitý bod je to, že sme ako spoločnosť na celom svete ustúpili od antikoncepcie. Vedeli sme, že 210 miliónov žien hovorilo, že chcú mať antikoncepciu k dispozícií, aj antikoncepciu, ktorú máme tu v USA a my sme im ju neposkytovali kvôli politickej kontroverzii v našej krajine. To bol z môjho pohľadu zločin a tak som sa stále snažila nájsť niekoho, kto by to vrátil na celosvetovú scénu, až som si uvedomila, že to musím spraviť ja. A napriek tomu, že som katolíčka, spolieham sa na antikoncepciu rovnako ako vačšina katolíčiek v Spojených štátoch, ktorá uvádza, že používa antikoncepciu a nemala by som dopustiť, aby nám táto kontroverzia bola prekážkou. Kedysi sme sa v Spojených štátoch zhodovali na antikoncepcii a tak sme sa vrátili k celosvetovej zhode a vyzbierali v skutočnosti 2,6 miliardy dolárov na práve tento problém žien. (Potlesk)
CA: Bill, this is your graph. What's this about?
CA: Bill, toto je tvoj graf. O čo sa jedná?
BG: Well, my graph has numbers on it. (Laughter) I really like this graph. This is the number of children who die before the age of five every year. And what you find is really a phenomenal success story which is not widely known, that we are making incredible progress. We go from 20 million not long after I was born to now we're down to about six million. So this is a story largely of vaccines. Smallpox was killing a couple million kids a year. That was eradicated, so that got down to zero. Measles was killing a couple million a year. That's down to a few hundred thousand. Anyway, this is a chart where you want to get that number to continue, and it's going to be possible, using the science of new vaccines, getting the vaccines out to kids. We can actually accelerate the progress. The last decade, that number has dropped faster than ever in history, and so I just love the fact that you can say, okay, if we can invent new vaccines, we can get them out there, use the very latest understanding of these things, and get the delivery right, that we can perform a miracle.
BG: No, môj graf obsahuje čísla. (Smiech) Mám tento graf veľmi rád. Toto je počet detí, ktoré ročne zomrú pred dosiahnutím piateho roku života. A to, čo objavíte, je fenomenálny úspech, ktorý nie je obecne známy. A síce, že robíme neuveriteľný pokrok. Dostali sme sa z 20-tich miliónov krátko po tom, ako som sa narodil, na terajších približne 6 milónov. Toto je príbeh predovšetkým vďaka očkovaniam. Ovčie kiahne ročne zabíjali pár miliónov detí. Tie boli vyhladené, takže tu sme sa dostali na nulu. Osýpky ročne zabíjali pár miliónov detí. To sa podarilo znížiť na niekoľko stotisíc. Toto je teda graf, ktorý ukazuje, kam sa má toto číslo uberať. Bude to možné vďaka pokroku s novými očkovaniami a vďaka tomu, že sa dostanú k deťom. V skutočnosti môžeme ten trend úrýchliť. Za posledné desaťročie kleslo toto číslo rýchlejšie ako kedykoľvek predtým. Jednoducho zbožňujem ten fakt, že môžete povedať, okej, ak vynájdeme tieto očkovania, dostaneme ich kam treba, využijeme najnovšie poznatky v tejto oblasti a správne ich podáme, tak môžeme spraviť zázrak.
CA: I mean, you do the math on this, and it works out, I think, literally to thousands of kids' lives saved every day compared to the prior year. It's not reported. An airliner with 200-plus deaths is a far, far bigger story than that. Does that drive you crazy?
CA: Keď si to spočítate, oproti predchádzajúcemu roku to vyjde doslovne na tisícky zachránených detských životov za deň. Vôbec sa o tom neinformuje. Lietadlo s viac ako 200 obeťami je omnoho, omnoho väčšia správa ako toto. Neštve vás to?
BG: Yeah, because it's a silent thing going on. It's a kid, one kid at a time. Ninety-eight percent of this has nothing to do with natural disasters, and yet, people's charity, when they see a natural disaster, are wonderful. It's incredible how people think, okay, that could be me, and the money flows. These causes have been a bit invisible. Now that the Millennium Development Goals and various things are getting out there, we are seeing some increased generosity, so the goal is to get this well below a million, which should be possible in our lifetime.
BG: Áno, pretože to prebieha potichu. Je to dieťa, jedno dieťa rad za radom. 98 percent tohto sa netýka prírodných katastrof a predsa sú ľudia omnoho veľkorysejší, keď vidia prírodnú katastrofu. Je neuveriteľné, ako ľudia zmýšľajú. Okej, to mohlo postihnúť mňa a peniaze tečú. Tieto účely boli tak trochu neviditeľné. Teraz, ako sa dostávajú do popredia Miléniové rozvojové ciele a rôzne ďalšie veci, zaznameli sme zvýšenú veľkorysosť, takže cieľ je dostať toto číslo hlboko pod milión, čoho by sme sa mali dožiť.
CA: Maybe it needed someone who is turned on by numbers and graphs rather than just the big, sad face to get engaged. I mean, you've used it in your letter this year, you used basically this argument to say that aid, contrary to the current meme that aid is kind of worthless and broken, that actually it has been effective.
CA: Možno bolo treba, aby sa na to vrhol niekto, koho zaujímajú čísla a grafy skôr než veľká smutná tvár. Mám na mysli to, že ste to tento rok použili vo svojom liste, v podstate ste argumentovali, že na rozdiel od súčasného prevládajúceho názoru, že pomoc je tak trochu zbytočná a nefungujúca, pomoc bola v skutočnosti efektívna.
BG: Yeah, well people can take, there is some aid that was well-meaning and didn't go well. There's some venture capital investments that were well-meaning and didn't go well. You shouldn't just say, okay, because of that, because we don't have a perfect record, this is a bad endeavor. You should look at, what was your goal? How are you trying to uplift nutrition and survival and literacy so these countries can take care of themselves, and say wow, this is going well, and be smarter. We can spend aid smarter. It is not all a panacea. We can do better than venture capital, I think, including big hits like this.
BG: Áno, ľudia si môžu zobrať - nájde sa pomoc, ktorá bola dobre myslená, ale dobre nevypálila. Rovnako sa nájdu investície rizikového kapitálu, ktoré boli dobre myslené, ale dobre nevypálili. Nemali by ste jednoducho povedať, okej, na základe toho, pretože nemáme čistý záznam, je to úsilie zlé. Mali by ste sa pozrieť na to, aký bol váš cieľ. Ako sa snažíte zlepšiť výživu, úroveň prežitia a gramotnosť, aby sa tieto krajiny mohli o seba postarať samy a aby mohli povedať, fíha, toto funguje a mohli sa stať múdrejšími. Pomoc môžeme vynaložiť lepšie. Nie je to všeliek. Myslím, že môžeme byť úspešnejší ako rizikový kapitál vrátane veľkej trefy ako je táto.
CA: Traditional wisdom is that it's pretty hard for married couples to work together. How have you guys managed it? MG: Yeah, I've had a lot of women say to me, "I really don't think I could work with my husband. That just wouldn't work out." You know, we enjoy it, and we don't -- this foundation has been a coming to for both of us in its continuous learning journey, and we don't travel together as much for the foundation, actually, as we used to when Bill was working at Microsoft. We have more trips where we're traveling separately, but I always know when I come home, Bill's going to be interested in what I learned, whether it's about women or girls or something new about the vaccine delivery chain, or this person that is a great leader. He's going to listen and be really interested. And he knows when he comes home, even if it's to talk about the speech he did or the data or what he's learned, I'm really interested, and I think we have a really collaborative relationship. But we don't every minute together, that's for sure. (Laughter)
CA: Hovorí sa, že je dosť ťažké pracovať spolu, keď ste manželia. Ako to zvládate vy? MG: Áno, veľa žien mi hovorí: "Naozaj si nemyslím, že by som mohla pracovať s mojím manželom. To by proste nedopadlo dobre." Viete, my si to užívame a... táto nádacia je cesta pre nás oboch vďaka neustálemu učeniu sa a vlastne pre nadáciu necestujeme spolu až tak často, ako sme zvykli, keď Bill pracoval v Microsofte. Síce podnikáme viac ciest oddelene, ale stále som si vedomá, že keď prídem domov, Bill sa bude zaujímať o to, čo som sa dozvedela, či sa to týka žien alebo dievčat, niečoho nového ohľadom distribúcie očkovaní alebo toho človeka, ktorý je skvelý líder. Bude počúvať a bude ho to naozaj zaujímať. A on si je vedomý, že keď príde domov, aj keď to znamená hovoriť o jeho príhovore alebo dátach alebo o tom, čo sa dozvedel, mňa to veľmi zaujíma. Myslím, že máme vzťah plný spolupráce. Ale netrávime spolu každú minútu, určite nie. (Smiech)
CA: But now you are, and we're very happy that you are. Melinda, early on, you were basically largely running the show. Six years ago, I guess, Bill came on full time, so moved from Microsoft and became full time. That must have been hard, adjusting to that. No?
CA: Ale teraz ste spolu a pre nás je to veľké potešenie. Melinda, na začiatku bolo v podstate všetko na tvojich pleciach. Tuším pred šiestimi rokmi Bill prešiel na plný úväzok, teda presunul sa z Microsoftu a začal na plný úväzok. Muselo byť ťažké prispôsobiť sa tomu, nie?
MG: Yeah. I think actually, for the foundation employees, there was way more angst for them than there was for me about Bill coming. I was actually really excited. I mean, Bill made this decision even obviously before it got announced in 2006, and it was really his decision, but again, it was a beach vacation where we were walking on the beach and he was starting to think of this idea. And for me, the excitement of Bill putting his brain and his heart against these huge global problems, these inequities, to me that was exciting. Yes, the foundation employees had angst about that. (Applause)
MG: Áno. Vlastne si myslím, že z príchodu Billa mali zamestnanci nadácie omnoho väčšie obavy ako ja. Ja som sa v skutočnosti veľmi tešila. Samozrejme, že Bill spravil toto rozhodnutie pred tým, ako bolo oznámené v roku 2006. Bolo to naozaj jeho rozhodnutie, ale opäť to bola plážová dovolenka, prechádzali sme sa po pláži a on začal nad tým uvažovať. Pre mňa to, že Bill zapojí svoj rozum a dá svoje srdce do týchto obrovských globálnych problémov, týchto nespravodlivostí, to bolo pre mňa vzrušujúce. Áno, zamestnanci nadácie mali obavy. (Potlesk)
CA: That's cool.
CA: To je v pohode.
MG: But that went away within three months, once he was there.
MG: Ale tie odišli do troch mesiacov po jeho príchode.
BG: Including some of the employees.
BG: Vrátane zamestnancov.
MG: That's what I said, the employees, it went away for them three months after you were there.
MG: To som povedala, zamestnanci sa zbavili obáv do troch mesiacov, čo si prišiel.
BG: No, I'm kidding. MG: Oh, you mean, the employees didn't go away.
BG: Nie, robím si srandu. MG: Ach, ty myslíš - nie, zamestnanci neodišli.
BG: A few of them did, but — (Laughter)
BG: Niekoľkí odišli, ale... (Smiech)
CA: So what do you guys argue about? Sunday, 11 o'clock, you're away from work, what comes up? What's the argument?
CA: Takže čo je predmetom vašich hádok? Nedeľa, 11 hodín, ste mimo práce, čo príde na pretras? O čom je tá hádka?
BG: Because we built this thing together from the beginning, it's this great partnership. I had that with Paul Allen in the early days of Microsoft. I had it with Steve Ballmer as Microsoft got bigger, and now Melinda, and in even stronger, equal ways, is the partner, so we talk a lot about which things should we give more to, which groups are working well? She's got a lot of insight. She'll sit down with the employees a lot. We'll take the different trips she described. So there's a lot of collaboration. I can't think of anything where one of us had a super strong opinion about one thing or another?
BG: Vďaka tomu, že sme to od začiatku vybudovali spolu, je to skvelé partnerstvo. Zažil som to s Paulom Allenom na začiatku Microsoftu. Zažil som to so Steveom Ballmerom, keď Microsoft rástol a teraz s Melindou je to ešte silnejší, rovnocennejší partner, takže veľa diskutujeme o tom, na ktoré účely by sme mali dať viac, ktoré skupiny fungujú dobre. Má veľmi dobrý prehľad. Často si sadne k zamestnancom. Vydáme sa na rôzne cesty, ktoré opísala. Takže je to veľmi o spolupráci. Nenapadá ma nič, na čo by jeden z nás tvrdohlavo zastával svoj názor.
CA: How about you, Melinda, though? Can you? (Laughter) You never know.
CA: A čo ty, Melinda? Napadá ťa niečo? (Smiech) Jeden nikdy nevie.
MG: Well, here's the thing. We come at things from different angles, and I actually think that's really good. So Bill can look at the big data and say, "I want to act based on these global statistics." For me, I come at it from intuition. I meet with lots of people on the ground and Bill's taught me to take that and read up to the global data and see if they match, and I think what I've taught him is to take that data and meet with people on the ground to understand, can you actually deliver that vaccine? Can you get a woman to accept those polio drops in her child's mouth? Because the delivery piece is every bit as important as the science. So I think it's been more a coming to over time towards each other's point of view, and quite frankly, the work is better because of it.
MG: No, ono je to takto. Máme na veci rôzny uhol pohľadu a to si myslím, že je veľmi dobré. Bill sa teda pozrie na kopu dát a povie: "Chcem konať na základe týchto globálnych čísel." Pre mňa je to skôr o intuícii. Stretávam sa v teréne s mnohými ľuďmi a Bill ma naučil využiť to na to, aby som zistila, či sa to zhoduje s tými globálnymi číslami, a myslím, že to, čo som ho naučila ja, je zobrať tie čísla a stretnúť sa s tými ľuďmi v teréne, aby zistil, či vôbec dokážeme podať to očkovanie. Dokážeme priviesť ženu k tomu, aby sa tie kvapky na obrnu ocitli v ústach jej dieťaťa? Pretože tá fáza podávania je rovnako dôležitá ako tá veda. Takže myslím, že je to skôr proces zjednodocovania našich nározov a úprimne povedané, je to na prospech našej práce.
CA: So, in vaccines and polio and so forth, you've had some amazing successes. What about failure, though? Can you talk about a failure and maybe what you've learned from it?
CA: Takže v očkovaniach, obrne a tak ďalej ste zaznamenali obrovské úspechy. Ale čo neúspechy? Môžete povedať o neúspechu a prípadne o tom, čo ste sa z neho naučili?
BG: Yeah. Fortunately, we can afford a few failures, because we've certainly had them. We do a lot of drug work or vaccine work that you know you're going to have different failures. Like, we put out, one that got a lot of publicity was asking for a better condom. Well, we got hundreds of ideas. Maybe a few of those will work out. We were very naïve, certainly I was, about a drug for a disease in India, visceral leishmaniasis, that I thought, once I got this drug, we can just go wipe out the disease. Well, turns out it took an injection every day for 10 days. It took three more years to get it than we expected, and then there was no way it was going to get out there. Fortunately, we found out that if you go kill the sand flies, you probably can have success there, but we spent five years, you could say wasted five years, and about 60 million, on a path that turned out to have very modest benefit when we got there.
BG: Iste. Našťastie si môžeme dovoliť pár neúspechov, lebo určite sme ich zaznamenali. Veľa úsilia venujeme liečivám alebo očkovaniam, pri ktorých viete, že prídu rôzne zlyhania. Napríklad jedno z tých, ktorému sa dostalo veľa pozornosti, bolo požadovanie lepšieho kondómu. No, prišli nám stovky nápadov. Možno niekoľko z nich vyjde. Boli sme veľmi naivní, minimálne ja, čo sa týka lieku proti jednej chorobe v Indii, viscerálnej leishmanniáze, o ktorom som si myslel, že keď ho budem mať, môžeme proste vyhladiť túto chorobu. No, ukázalo sa, že počas 10-tich dní bolo treba každodennú injekciu. Vyvinúť ho trvalo o tri roky dlhšie, ako sme očakávali a potom neexistoval spôsob, ako ho tam distribuovať. Našťastie sme zistili, že ak zabijete ten hmyz - piesočné mušky, máte nejakú šancu uspieť. Ale strávili sme päť rokov, dalo by sa povedať zabili päť rokov a približne 60 miliónov, na postupe, ktorý sa ukázal byť nie veľmi užitočný, keď sme ho zaviedli.
CA: You're spending, like, a billion dollars a year in education, I think, something like that. Is anything, the story of what's gone right there is quite a long and complex one. Are there any failures that you can talk about?
CA: Myslím, že ročne vynaložíte približne miliardu dolárov na vzdelávanie, zhruba takú sumu. Je niečo... príbeh o tom, čo sa vám v tejto oblasti podarilo, je dosť dlhý a komplexný. Môžete spomenúť nejaké neúspechy?
MG: Well, I would say a huge lesson for us out of the early work is we thought that these small schools were the answer, and small schools definitely help. They bring down the dropout rate. They have less violence and crime in those schools. But the thing that we learned from that work, and what turned out to be the fundamental key, is a great teacher in front of the classroom. If you don't have an effective teacher in the front of the classroom, I don't care how big or small the building is, you're not going to change the trajectory of whether that student will be ready for college. (Applause)
MG: Povedala by som, že obrovská lekcia z počiatočného úsilia bolo pre nás to, že sme si mysleli, že malé školy sú odpoveďou a malé školy určite pomáhajú. Znižujú počet žiakov, ktorí zanechajú školu. Na malých školách sa vyskytuje menej násilia a kriminality. Ale to, čo sme si z toho úsilia zobrali a čo sa ukázalo byť klúčom k úspechu, je skvelý učiteľ stojaci pred triedou. Ak nestojí pred triedou efektívny učiteľ, je jedno, či je školská budova malá alebo veľká, neovplyvníte to, či bude žiak pripravený na vysokú školu alebo nie. (Potlesk)
CA: So Melinda, this is you and your eldest daughter, Jenn. And just taken about three weeks ago, I think, three or four weeks ago. Where was this?
CA: Tak, Melinda, tu si ty so svojou najstaršou dcérou Jenn. Myslím, že to bolo odfotené len pred tromi či štyrmi týždňami. Kde to bolo?
MG: So we went to Tanzania. Jenn's been to Tanzania. All our kids have been to Africa quite a bit, actually. And we did something very different, which is, we decided to go spend two nights and three days with a family. Anna and Sanare are the parents. They invited us to come and stay in their boma. Actually, the goats had been there, I think, living in that particular little hut on their little compound before we got there. And we stayed with their family, and we really, really learned what life is like in rural Tanzania. And the difference between just going and visiting for half a day or three quarters of a day versus staying overnight was profound, and so let me just give you one explanation of that. They had six children, and as I talked to Anna in the kitchen, we cooked for about five hours in the cooking hut that day, and as I talked to her, she had absolutely planned and spaced with her husband the births of their children. It was a very loving relationship. This was a Maasai warrior and his wife, but they had decided to get married, they clearly had respect and love in the relationship. Their children, their six children, the two in the middle were twins, 13, a boy, and a girl named Grace. And when we'd go out to chop wood and do all the things that Grace and her mother would do, Grace was not a child, she was an adolescent, but she wasn't an adult. She was very, very shy. So she kept wanting to talk to me and Jenn. We kept trying to engage her, but she was shy. And at night, though, when all the lights went out in rural Tanzania, and there was no moon that night, the first night, and no stars, and Jenn came out of our hut with her REI little headlamp on, Grace went immediately, and got the translator, came straight up to my Jenn and said, "When you go home, can I have your headlamp so I can study at night?"
MG: Vybrali sme sa do Tanzánie. Jenn už bola v Tanzánii. Vlastne všetky naše deti boli dosť veľakrát v Afrike. A spravili sme niečo úplne iné, teda rozhodli sme sa stráviť dve noci a tri dni s jednou rodinou. Rodičia sa volajú Anna a Sanare. Pozvali nás, aby sme prišli a bývali v ich domčeku. Vlastne tuším, že pred tým, ako sme tam prišli my, žili v tom domčeku kozy z ich malého statku. Tak sme bývali v ich rodine a naozaj, naozaj zistili, aké je to žiť na vidieku v Tanzánii. Je nesmierny rozdiel medzi tým, či idete na pol alebo trištvrte dňa na návštevu, a tým, či zostanete na noc. Dovoľte mi objasniť to na jednom príklade. Mali šesť detí a keď som sa rozprávala s Annou v kuchyni, v ten deň sme v domčeku na varenie varili asi päť hodín, povedala mi, že s manželom si úplne naplánovali a načasovali pôrody ich detí. Bol to láskyplný vzťah. Šlo o masajského vojaka a jeho ženu, ale rozhodli sa zobrať sa a očividne mali vo vzťahu rešpekt a lásku. Ich deti, ich šesť detí, tie dve v strede sú trinásťročné dvojičky, chlapec, a dievča menom Grace. Keď sme išli zháňať drevo a robiť všetky tie veci, ktoré Grace s matkou robievajú - Grace nebola dieťaťom, bola dospievajúca, ale nebola dospelá. Bola veľmi, veľmi hanblivá. Stále sa chcela rozprávať so mnou a Jenn. Snažili sme sa ju zapojiť, ale bola hanblivá. Ale v noci, keď všetky svetlá na vidieku v Tanzánii zhasli a v tú noc po prvýkrát nesvietil ani mesiac ani hviezdy, Jenn vyšla z nášho domčeku so svojou malou lampičkou značky REI na čele, Grace vyšla hneď von, priviedla prekladateľa a prišla priamo k mojej Jenn a povedala: "Keď pôjdeš domov, môžeš mi nechať svoju lampičku, aby som sa mohla v noci učiť?"
CA: Oh, wow.
CA: Fíha.
MG: And her dad had told me how afraid he was that unlike the son, who had passed his secondary exams, because of her chores, she'd not done so well and wasn't in the government school yet. He said, "I don't know how I'm going to pay for her education. I can't pay for private school, and she may end up on this farm like my wife." So they know the difference that an education can make in a huge, profound way.
MG: A jej otec mi povedal, že má obavy, že na rozdiel od syna, ktorý spravil stredoškolské skúšky, Grace sa kvôli jej domácim prácam nedarilo tak dobre a zatiaľ sa nedostala na štátnu školu. Povedal: "Neviem, ako jej zaplatím vzdelanie. Súkromnú školu si nemôžem dovoliť a tak možno skončí na tejto farme rovnako ako moja žena." Takže sú si nesmierne vedomí rozdielu, aký môže spraviť vzdelanie -
CA: I mean, this is another pic of your other two kids, Rory and Phoebe, along with Paul Farmer. Bringing up three children when you're the world's richest family seems like a social experiment without much prior art. How have you managed it? What's been your approach?
v obrovskej a zásadnej miere. CA: No, toto je ďalšia fotka vašich zvyšných dvoch detí, Rory a Phoebe, spolu s Paulom Farmerom. Výchova troch detí, keď ste najbohatšou rodinou na svete, sa zdá byť spoločenským experimentom bez predošlých skúseností. Ako to zvládate?
BG: Well, I'd say overall
Aký je váš prístup?
the kids get a great education, but you've got to make sure they have a sense of their own ability and what they're going to go and do, and our philosophy has been to be very clear with them -- most of the money's going to the foundation -- and help them find something they're excited about. We want to strike a balance where they have the freedom to do anything but not a lot of money showered on them so they could go out and do nothing. And so far, they're fairly diligent, excited to pick their own direction.
BG: No, povedal by som, že deti dostávajú skvelé vzdelanie, ale človek sa musí uistiť, že sú si vedomé svojich schopností a toho, čo budú robiť. Naša filozofia je jednať s nimi na rovinu - väčšina peňazí ide nadácii - a pomôcť im nájsť niečo, pre čo majú zanietenie. Chceme nájsť zlatú strednú cestu, aby mohli robiť čokoľvek, ale neboli zasypané peniazmi, aby mohli nerobiť nič. A zatiaľ sa celkom držia, tešia sa, ako si vyberú svoj smer.
CA: You've obviously guarded their privacy carefully for obvious reasons. I'm curious why you've given me permission to show this picture now here at TED. MG: Well, it's interesting. As they get older, they so know that our family belief is about responsibility, that we are in an unbelievable situation just to live in the United States and have a great education, and we have a responsibility to give back to the world. And so as they get older and we are teaching them -- they have been to so many countries around the world — they're saying, we do want people to know that we believe in what you're doing, Mom and Dad, and it is okay to show us more. So we have their permission to show this picture, and I think Paul Farmer is probably going to put it eventually in some of his work. But they really care deeply about the mission of the foundation, too.
CA: Samozrejme, že ste z očividných dôvodov pozorne chránili ich súkromie. Zaujíma ma, prečo ste mi teraz dovolili ukázať túto fotku tu na TED. MG: No, je to zaujímavé. Ako vyrastajú, sú si plne vedomé, že naše rodinné presvedčenie je o zodpovednosti, že sme v neuveriteľnej pozícii už len preto, že žijeme v USA a máme skvelé vzdelanie a že nesieme zodpovednosť za to, aby sme sa svetu odvďačili. Teda čím sú staršie a učíme ich - boli už v toľkých krajinách po svete - hovoria, chceme, aby ľudia vedeli, že veríme tomu, čo robíte, mami a tati a je v poriadku častejšie nás ukazovať. Takže máme ich súhlas ukázať túto fotku a myslím, že Paul Farmer ju asi nakoniec použije vo svojej práci. Ale vážne im hlboko záleží na misii nadácie.
CA: You've easily got enough money despite your vast contributions to the foundation to make them all billionaires. Is that your plan for them?
CA: Aj napriek vašim obrovským príspevkom nadácii máte nesporne dosť peňazí na to, aby ste z nich spravili miliardárov. Máte to v pláne?
BG: Nope. No. They won't have anything like that. They need to have a sense that their own work is meaningful and important. We read an article long, actually, before we got married, where Warren Buffett talked about that, and we're quite convinced that it wasn't a favor either to society or to the kids.
BG: Nie, nie. Nedostanú nič také. Potrebujú mať pocit, že ich vlastná práca má zmysel a je dôležitá. Ešte predtým, ako sme sa zobrali, sme čítali jeden článok, v ktorom Warren Buffet hovoril práve o tomto. Sme celkom presvedčení, že by to nebolo pre dobro spoločnosti ani ich.
CA: Well, speaking of Warren Buffett, something really amazing happened in 2006, when somehow your only real rival for richest person in America suddenly turned around and agreed to give 80 percent of his fortune to your foundation. How on Earth did that happen? I guess there's a long version and a short version of that. We've got time for the short version.
CA: No, keď je reč o Warrenovi Buffettovi, v roku 2006 sa stalo niečo naozaj úžasné, keď tvoj jediný skutočný rival v súboji o najbohatšieho človeka Ameriky prekvapil tým, že súhlasil, že daruje 80% svojho majetku vašej nadácii. Ako sa to pre pána kráľa stalo? Domnievam sa, že existuje dlhá a krátka verzia. Máme čas na tú krátku.
BG: All right. Well, Warren was a close friend, and he was going to have his wife Suzie give it all away. Tragically, she passed away before he did, and he's big on delegation, and — (Laughter) — he said —
BG: Dobre. No, Warren je blízky priateľ a chcel, aby to všetko darovala jeho manželka Suzie. Bohužiaľ, zomrela skôr ako on a keďže je veľký zástanca delegácie (Smiech) povedal -
CA: Tweet that.
CA: Tweetujte to.
BG: If he's got somebody who is doing something well, and is willing to do it at no charge, maybe that's okay. But we were stunned. MG: Totally stunned. BG: We had never expected it, and it has been unbelievable. It's allowed us to increase our ambition in what the foundation can do quite dramatically. Half the resources we have come from Warren's mind-blowing generosity.
BG: Ak má niekoho, kto robí niečo dobre a je ochotný robiť to zadarmo, snáď je to v poriadku. Ale boli sme ohromení. MG: Úplne ohromení. BG: Vôbec sme to nečakali a bolo to neuveriteľné. Výrazne nám to umožnilo zvýšiť ambície ohľadom toho, čo môže nadácia robiť. Polovica zdrojov, ktoré máme, je výsledkom Warrenovej dych berúcej veľkorysosti.
CA: And I think you've pledged that by the time you're done, more than, or 95 percent of your wealth, will be given to the foundation.
Myslím, že ste sľúbili, že keď vyprší váš čas, viac ako alebo 95% vášho majetku pôjde nadácii.
BG: Yes.
BG: Áno.
CA: And since this relationship, it's amazing— (Applause) And recently, you and Warren have been going around trying to persuade other billionaires and successful people to pledge to give, what, more than half of their assets for philanthropy. How is that going? BG: Well, we've got about 120 people who have now taken this giving pledge. The thing that's great is that we get together yearly and talk about, okay, do you hire staff, what do you give to them? We're not trying to homogenize it. I mean, the beauty of philanthropy is this mind-blowing diversity. People give to some things. We look and go, "Wow." But that's great. That's the role of philanthropy is to pick different approaches, including even in one space, like education. We need more experimentation. But it's been wonderful, meeting those people, sharing their journey to philanthropy, how they involve their kids, where they're doing it differently, and it's been way more successful than we expected. Now it looks like it'll just keep growing in size in the years ahead.
CA: A tento vzťah... je to úžasné. (Potlesk) Nedávno ste s Warrenom obchádzali ďalších miliardárov a úspešných ľudí a snažili sa ich predsvedčiť, aby sľúbili, že darujú viac ako polovicu svojho majetku na filantropiu. Ako sa vám s tým darí? BG: Máme okolo 120 ľudí, ktorí už prisľúbili dar. Čo je na tom skvelé je, že každoročne sa stretávame a diskutujeme o tom, okej, najímate ľudí, čo im dávate? Nesnažíme sa to homogenizovať. Krása filantropie spočíva práve v dych berúcej rôznorodosti. Ľudia na niečo darujú. Pozrieme sa na to a povieme: "Fíha." Ale to je skvelé. Úlohou filantropie je vybrať si rôzne prístupy, aj v rámci jednej oblasti, ako napríklad vzdelávanie. Potrebujeme viac experimentovať. Ale je to úžasné, stretávať tých ľudí, ktorí zdieľajú svoju cestu k filantropii. To, ako zatiahnu svoje deti, v čom robia veci inak. Malo to oveľa väčší úspech, ako sme očakávali. Momentálne to vyzerá tak, že sa to v budúcnosti bude len rozrastať.
MG: And having people see that other people are making change with philanthropy, I mean, these are people who have created their own businesses, put their own ingenuity behind incredible ideas. If they put their ideas and their brain behind philanthropy, they can change the world. And they start to see others doing it, and saying, "Wow, I want to do that with my own money." To me, that's the piece that's incredible.
MG: A ľudia majú možnosť vidieť, že iní ľudia dosiahnu filantropiou zmenu. Mám na mysli to, že títo ľudia založili vlastné firmy, vložili svoju dômyselnosť do neuveriteľných nápadov. Ak vložia svoje nápady a intelekt do filantropie, môžu zmeniť svet. A teda začnú vidieť, čo robia iní, a povedia: "Fíha, chcem spraviť to isté s mojimi peniazmi." To je pre mňa tá časť, ktorá je úžasná.
CA: It seems to me, it's actually really hard for some people to figure out even how to remotely spend that much money on something else. There are probably some billionaires in the room and certainly some successful people. I'm curious, can you make the pitch? What's the pitch?
CA: Zdá sa mi, že pre niektorých ľudí je naozaj ťažké prísť už len na to, ako vôbec vynaložiť toľko peňazí na niečo iné. Pravdepodobne sú tu prítomní nejakí miliardári a určite nejakí úspešní ľudia. Zaujíma ma, či to dokážete predať? Ako to predávate?
BG: Well, it's the most fulfilling thing we've ever done, and you can't take it with you, and if it's not good for your kids, let's get together and brainstorm about what we can be done. The world is a far better place because of the philanthropists of the past, and the U.S. tradition here, which is the strongest, is the envy of the world. And part of the reason I'm so optimistic is because I do think philanthropy is going to grow and take some of these things government's not just good at working on and discovering and shine some light in the right direction.
BG: No, napĺňa nás to viac ako čokoľvek predtým a nemôžete si to zobrať so sebou a ak to neprospeje vašim deťom, spojme sa a hľadajme nápady, ohľadom toho, čo sa dá spraviť. Svet sa stal omnoho lepším vďaka filantropistom z minulosti a americkú tradíciu, ktorá je najsilnejšia, nám závidí celý svet. Jeden z dôvodov, prečo som taký optimista, je, že si naozaj myslím, že filantropia sa bude rozširovať a zaoberať sa niektorými z tých vecí, ktoré vláda jednoducho nie je schopná adresovať a odhaľovať. Ukáže cestu správnym smerom.
CA: The world's got this terrible inequality, growing inequality problem that seems structural. It does seem to me that if more of your peers took the approach that you two have made, it would make a dent both in that problem and certainly in the perception of that problem. Is that a fair comment?
CA: Svetom zmieta hrozná nerovnosť, rastúci problém nerovnosti, ktorý sa zdá byť štrukturálny. Naozaj sa mi zdá, že keby viacerí podobní ľudia zvolili rovnaký prístup ako vy dvaja, zredukovalo by to ten problém, ale určite aj pohľad na veľkosť toho problému. Dá sa to tak povedať?
BG: Oh yeah. If you take from the most wealthy and give to the least wealthy, it's good. It tries to balance out, and that's just.
BG: Ale áno. Je dobré, ak zoberiete najbohatším a dáte najchudobnejším. Vedie to k rovnováhe a tá je spravodlivá.
MG: But you change systems. In the U.S., we're trying to change the education system so it's just for everybody and it works for all students. That, to me, really changes the inequality balance.
MG: Ale meníte systémy. V USA sa snažíme zmeniť systém vzdelávania, aby bol pre všetkých spravodlivý a fungoval pre všetkých žiakov. To z môjho pohľadu naozaj ovplyňuje jazýček váh nerovnosti.
BG: That's the most important. (Applause)
BG: To je najdôležitejšie. (Potlesk)
CA: Well, I really think that most people here and many millions around the world are just in awe of the trajectory your lives have taken and the spectacular degree to which you have shaped the future. Thank you so much for coming to TED and for sharing with us and for all you do.
CA: No, naozaj si myslím, že vo väčšine prítomných a v miliónoch ľúdí po celom svete vzbudzuje dráha, ktorú vaše životy nabrali a tá obrovská miera ako ovplyvnili budúcnosť, veľkú úctu. Veľmi vám ďakujem, že ste prišli na TED, podelili sa s nami, a za všetko, čo robíte.
BG: Thank you. MG: Thank you. (Applause)
BG: Ďakujeme. MG: Ďakujeme. (Potlesk)
BG: Thank you. MG: Thank you very much. BG: All right, good job. (Applause)
BG: Ďakujeme. MG: Ďakujeme veľmi pekne. BG: Fajn, dobrá práca. (Potlesk)