Pat Mitchell: So, Ava, I told you this already, thank you for the special privilege to see the film. I wish it was something that we could share with each and every one of you, but here, I will tell you, you absolutely must see "Origin" when it comes to a theater. But knowing the book and how complex and challenging and how deeply researched the thesis of this monumental piece of work, that, as I said, left my heart pounding and my mind reeling, what inspired you to take this project on and translate it to a feature film?
Ava DuVernay: I'm always happy to sit with you, so thank you for having me, folks. You know, people told me this was an unadaptable book, so the only logical thing to do is to try to adapt it.
(Laughter)
But the book really grabbed me. The first time I read it, I was taken by the fact that I didn't quite get it, and that frustrated me, so I read it again, and I just, I read it three times, and started to feel really connected to some of the stories and some of the characters that the author uses to bring us into this idea that she has, this thesis that so much of our oppression is linked, and that if we embrace the commonalities of our challenges, that there was a way forward, a blueprint to trying to, kind of, combat some of our social ills.
And so within that, that's a hard movie to make, just that, but I'd heard about these beautiful stories about her life -- she's a remarkable woman, Isabel Wilkerson. So I thought, "Maybe I can use her life and work as the impetus for the story." And so I started to try to find those parallels, and I felt guided through the process.
You know, sometimes, you just get in a groove. I have a friend who cooks really well, I really don't. And she just gets in a groove. She can make something out of whatever's in the kitchen. They don't even look like they connect, but she can put it together. This film was the first time I felt like I got in a groove, out of everything that I made. And the two things, her life and the historical context of "Caste," somehow fit together, even though on its surface, it may not look like it.
PM: And I think most people, hearing that you've made a film of "Caste," would think, "Oh, it's going to be a documentary, another one of those stunning Ava documentaries." But it is in fact a narrative film.
AD: It's a narrative film, where you follow a group of real, live actors through the process. Blessedly, I was able to work with one of the best actors working today, Aunjanue Ellis, who is our lead. She plays Isabel Wilkerson, and she's extraordinary. And I was able to figure out a way to tell the story of the deep historical theories and the social phenomena of caste within the story of a woman and her love story with her family and her husband.
PM: Well, we can't show the whole thing, but we can share a trailer.
AD: Oh, we brought a little teaser for you to see.
PM: Origin.
(Music)
(Crowd cheering)
Isabel Wilkerson: Everywhere. All over the place. There's connective tissue. All of this. All of it ... is linked.
(Music fades)
AD: Yeah, that was a little snippet.
(Applause)
AD: Yeah, thank you.
(Applause)
I don't know if you could hear, she says, "All of this is linked, there's connective tissue to all of it," and really, that was the piece of the book that resonated with me. So often, in our challenges, we feel alone. And the way you can know there are folks facing similar things in different places and different times, similar to the people in this room, you start to feel that there's strength in numbers, and that there's some foundation to succeed.
PM: Along with taking on the challenge of a very complex set of theories that Isabel Wilkerson puts forward in the book, you had a lot of other creative choices to make, and challenges to get such a film made. Yeah, like money.
(Laughter)
AD: You know, sometimes, I wish I should have gone to sculpture.
(Laughter)
Just need the piece of ... But yes, money is a big thing, and, you know, on its face, when you talk to studios, and you say, "I want to make a film about Caste," it's not top of the list of things that they're interested in making. So the strategy was not even to go there, to not go to each and every studio, because, you know, I'm a realist, I know that this is a business, and I understand there are certain barriers to entry in the minds of studios as to whether or not this would be successful. So what we were able to do was raise the money independently --
(Applause)
Yay, independence. Come on, independence.
(Applause)
We raised the money independently. That's why Aunjanue Ellis's involvement is so extraordinary, because she had just come off of the Academy Award nomination for "King Richard" and could have really done anything. And we asked her to come and join this independent film. She actually asked, we asked each other to join this independent film, and we held hands, and I took that lady all over the world. We did three continents in 37 days, and I really needed a partner who could stand toe-to-toe with me and do that work with independent money. Independent means there's no more.
(Laughter)
AD: This is the money, and there's nothing else coming. And it was a fantastic way to work, you know? It was freeing, in a way.
PM: And I know that, with all of your work, you always have a strategy, too, about what would be the impact of the film and how does it go beyond seeing the film onscreen. What are those plans?
AD: I just feel like making the film on its own and being satisfied with the film being out, is really just half the work, for myself, as a filmmaker. I can't just put it out. I need to make sure it gets to the audience, that it reaches folks, that it's understood, that it's interrogated, that it's shared. And so, I have this crazy idea that I want every 16-year-old in the country to be able to see the film for free, if they want. And --
(Applause)
There are four million 16-year-olds in the country right now.
(Laughter)
If we can get 100,000 of them in ... But I want them to be able to see it for free, so I made a website, over the weekend, called seat16.com. And you just go on in, and you buy a ticket for a 16-year-old. It goes into a fund, and when it's time, in December or January, when the film comes out, that goes to seat16.com. Not "sweet," "seat." Isn't it cute?
(Laughter)
But the idea that, at that age, you're starting to interrogate your place in the world and what the world means to you, and how you fit in, and I just think it's such a tender age, especially at this time, that young people be able to be autonomous in what they learn, that they're not told what they can't learn. That they are able to read what they want to read, see what they want to see --
(Cheers and applause)
And so, that's our little solution.
PM: Not at all surprising that that would be one of the aspirations. And in watching it, I mean, it really does change your mind. I found myself thinking, "Every student, everywhere in the world should see this film, and make these connective tissue, that is so clear in her theory and in the film." Did you believe all the theories when you started, or did something change for you in the making of the film? Did you learn something that was new, and a discovery?
AD: I learned so much. Everything about the Indian people, the Dalit people, I knew nothing about. I feel I'm an educated person, I thought I was well-read. I'm not. We live in a container that doesn't really promote the idea that we should be learning about people's daily lives in any place other than here. And that is our media, that is our school system. I mean, many people in this audience, you know you have to grab your education, you have to continue to educate yourself. So when we talk about students, it's not just young people. We need to continually be students, I think that's why everybody's here, continuing to learn, continuing to listen and explore. And so, there was so much in the book that I maybe knew a little bit of, or I hadn't made connections to. But almost every single thing about the Dalit people in India, I had never heard about. I had heard about "untouchables" in India, but I thought that was, like, in feudal, ancient India, not happening now, in the ways that it is. So we explore that in the film, one of the many things that, hopefully, folks will take away.
PM: There's so many things that you take away, and it's actually true of all of your work. Ava, I always feel that there's some revelatory truth that comes, whether it's "13th," or "When They See Us" --
AD: You were the one who watched it, thank you, ma'am.
(Laughter)
PM: Alright, "Selma" -- AD: Somebody said "Queen Sugar"? Hey.
PM: That was my next name. (Laughs)
AD: She knows, Pat knows "Queen Sugar."
AD: I know you do. PM: Absolutely.
PM: But that seems to be at the core, that's something you would say about an Ava Duvernay work, right?
AD: I hope so, but I'm really just making what I'm interested in, what I've learned, and trying to pass it along. When I learned the information on "13th," I wanted to share it. When I understood what was happening with Black farmers in this country, I wanted to make "Queen Sugar" and everything that's within it. So I'm a voracious reader who will then go make a movie about it. And it's a beautiful way to further our knowledge, because I believe images embed themselves in our imagination in a way that words alone don't. We think in picture, you know? Your memories are pictures. And so, to be able to approximate that, to render that in film, is such an honor that, when I first was able to do it and show my work in a theater like this and watch the back of people's heads as they were watching the screen and understand that emotion was coming from the images that I made, it was highly addictive and something that I've never gotten over.
PM: And one of the other characteristics of everything you've done, as you've moved and journeyed through Hollywood's power systems to become one of its most admired people and one of the world's most admired talents, Ava, is that you have also brought other people with you. It wasn't just enough that you made the journey to the top.
AD: Because that's not fun.
(Laughter)
Do you want to be there by yourself? Right? It's not fun.
(Cheers and applause)
PM: But you actualized that in creating your own studio. Talk to us about ARRAY, what its purpose is and what it has done for people of color in the film industry.
AD: You know, it's a handmade, homemade space. You know, mom-and-pop stores, this is just a mom store.
(Laughter)
And it's a place where we make what we want to make, we say what we want to say, we educate ourselves and other people, we congregate around ideas and images. But it's really community. I found that it's just boring by yourself. It's not as much fun to be on the red carpet, the awards show, all those things are not as much fun as being able to sit in a theater and watch a movie with folks who are able to see the movie for free or discuss a film or talk about ideas or to listen to a lecture. So we have a small campus in Los Angeles that is a community space, that has a small theater. And we just invite people to come in and out and share their imagination and their ideas with us. And we've created ARRAY Crew, which is a database so that people of color, women of all kinds, older people, people who are kind of "aged out" of our industry and no longer called for crew jobs, they're all in a database. All of the people that are outside of the box, you can find them and you can hire them. On "Queen Sugar," we hired all women directors for seven seasons. Whenever you're doing the work, you're just finding ways --
(Applause)
Thank you.
I'm just finding ways to have good people around. And it's really as simple as that.
PM: And to show up for other people, which you have clearly done, as a role model, clearly. And I know that you value that. You value the mentors who have been in your life and the mentorship that you've offered to others. And recently, you brought back one of your early mentors, someone who had inspired you, around a concept that I found fascinating. And I'd love you to talk about it a bit, the idea that what we all need to find is our "liberated territory."
AD: Yes. PM: What is that?
AD: So I don't know if anyone here knows Haile Gerima.
(Applause)
An extraordinary filmmaker, Ethiopian-born, who studied at UCLA, went on to be a professor of film and art at Howard University for many years, has a small bookstore and café called Sankofa, named after his film "Sankofa." Anybody seen "Sankofa"?
(Cheers and applause)
"Sankofa," the most sublime, exquisite, deeply moving, nuanced rendering of any depiction of slavery of African people ever made, in my opinion. Now on Netflix, distributed by ARRAY.
(Laughter)
And he has this idea, that in order to thrive, not just as an artist, but as a person, you must find and claim your liberated territory. So for him, it was that bookstore, Sankofa. "This is my space. This is where I work. This is my physical space where I can be courageous, where I can dream and fulfill those dreams within my own mind, my own heart and with my own hands." So I duplicated that, and made our ARRAY Campus in Los Angeles very much modeled after that. But I continue to think about liberated territory in other ways, because what if you aren't a filmmaker, what if you can't have these buildings, what is the liberated territory? The space where you feel the most courageous. Doesn't even have to be a physical space. It needs to be the space that you can go to inside yourself, that is your safe place, where you allow yourself to be able to ideate, have bad ideas, talk yourself into ideas, talk yourself out of that idea.
(Laughter)
And just cultivate that within yourself. So for me, it wasn't just the physical space, it was also freeing my mind and freeing up spaces within me, where I said, "This is my liberated territory, this is where I go, this is my time, this is the way I do it, to just let my mind be free, and have courage, have courage." And so it doesn't just come, you have to create the right conditions. And that term, liberated territory, it stayed with both of us, when we talked about it.
PM: Yes.
AD: And it is a bit of a mantra. I found mine in film, and the hope is that we can all find ours, in whatever ways we're able to.
PM: You did find yours in film, and because you found yours, you're providing liberated territory for many of the rest of us. And I often think that when I look at such monumental work -- and that really does characterize all of your work, Ava -- I think, "What could be next?"
AD: (Whispers) I don't know.
(Laughter)
And you know what? This is the first time that I've ever not known what my next project is, since I started. I didn't pick up a camera until I was 32, and so when I got the opportunity to make films, I just thought the door was going to close. "I need to go fast, keep going before they figure out," (Whispers) "I don't know what I'm doing." Never went to film school, I just picked up the camera, and so I just started running as fast as I can, and this really is the first film, working with Aunjanue, working with the team that I'd been with for a long time, I was able to, at the end of this process -- we just finished the film a couple of weeks ago -- say, "I don't have something else next, and that's OK." You know, that's OK, to take a second, you know? The door is not going to close.
(Applause)
The door is not going to close, and if it does, I've got my liberated territory. I'll just be right over here, it's OK. But it's the first time I don't know, and it feels really nice.
PM: Well, the door is definitely not going to close. And to go back to "Origin" and the way that I felt, watching this film and the way I've thought about it so many times since, I wonder what is your highest, deepest aspiration for the way people will respond? What would be the change, what do you want the response to be?
AD: I usually resist answering that question, because I don't want to prescribe -- everyone comes in with their own stuff. I just want -- I feel emotional. I want people to ... enter into the film with an open heart and mind. Because I've seen that when people do that with this work, for whatever reason ... good things happen. And you just have to stay open. And, so often, I turn on the TV, or I'm watching or reading something, kind of with my mental arms folded. You know, "I know what I feel about this, and I already have an opinion." And the hope is that, folks, that this film engenders the spirit of, "Let me just go in open, and see what it's about, and see what it brings up in me." That's my hope.
PM: I can only say that that is what happens.
(AD laughs)
(Applause)
PM: I think it's quite a gift to be able to create art, to tell stories, to create narrative that really does change the way people see the world.
PM: And you have done that, Ava DuVernay. AD: It's a privilege.
PM: Thank you for sharing. AD: Thank you for sharing with me.
AD: I appreciate you. PM: Thank you so much.
AD: Thank you. These boots.
(AD laughs)
AD: Thanks folks.
