David Biello: In the wake of Dr. Anthony Fauci's announcement
大卫·比洛(David Biello):
that he will be retiring as the head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases at the end of the year, I've invited him to join me for a conversation on the future of the COVID-19 pandemic, reflections on his career and the future of public health. Please welcome Brooklyn's own Dr. Fauci.
随着安东尼·福奇博士 (Dr. Anthony Fauci)宣布 他将卸任 国家过敏和传染病研究所所长 于年底, 我邀请他与我来一场对话 关于 COVID-19 大流行的未来, 他对职业生涯的反思和 公共卫生的展望。 请欢迎布鲁克林独一无二的福奇博士!
Anthony Fauci: Hi, David, nice to see you, thank you for having me.
AF: 你好,大卫,很高兴见到你, 谢谢你请我来。
DB: Thank you for joining us.
DB:感谢您加入我们。
So my first question is very simple. Is the COVID-19 pandemic over?
我第一个问题很简单。 COVID-19 大流行结束了吗?
AF: You know, David, there's a lot of misinterpretation about what the meaning of the word "over" is, it means different things to different people. I'm sure you're referring to the comment made by the President a day or two ago. If you're talking about the fulminant phase of the outbreak, when we were having anywhere from 800,000 to 900,000 infections a day and 3,000 to 4,000 deaths per day, that was several months ago. We are much, much better off now than we were then. So in that case, that fulminant phase of the outbreak is behind us. But as the President made very clear on the second half of his sentence, is that, which they don't seem to show, is that he actually said we still have a lot of work to do, there's still a challenge ahead, we’ve got to get people vaccinated. We still have a number of cases, we have 400 deaths per day. That's an unacceptably high level. So again, it depends on the semantics of what your definition is. We don't want anyone to get the impression that we don't have a lot of work to do. We've got to get the level of infection considerably lower than it is. And we've certainly got to get the level of deaths lower than it is. So again, it depends on the semantics of what you mean by "end."
AF: 你知道,大卫,这里有很多误解, 对于“结束”这个词的含义, 对不同的人意味着不同的事。 我相信你指的是 总统一两天前做的评论。 如果你说的是暴发流行期, 当我们每天有 80 万至 90 万例感染, 每日死亡三千至四千人, 那是几个月前的事了。 我们现在比当时的情形要好, 好很多了。 所以从这看来, 那个疫情暴发阶段已经过去了。 但正如总统明确表示, 在他的后半句, 就是那,似乎没有显现出来, 就是他真正说的, 我们还有很多工作要做, 前面还有挑战, 我们还要让人们接种疫苗。 我们还有很多病例, 我们每天有四百人死亡。 这是个无法接受的高水平。 所以再次, 这取决于对词意 你的解释是什么。 我们不想让任何人觉得 我们没有很多工作要做。 我们必须使感染水平 比现在低很多。 我们当然要让死亡人数 低于目前水平。 同样,这取决于语义 你所说的“结束”是什么意思。
DB: Well, let's get into those semantics then. What conditions would need to exist for the pandemic to be over?
那么,让我们进入这些语义。 需要具备什么条件才是大流行结束?
AF: You know, that's a call that officially is made by the World Health Organization. You know, my colleagues and I oh, it must have been more than ten years ago, because of the lack of clarity on what a pandemic means to one person versus another, we wrote a paper in the Journal of Infectious Diseases in which we talked about all the different variations of interpretations. Is it a widespread phenomenon? Is it the widespread nature throughout the world that makes it officially a pandemic? Or is it widespread and accelerating? Or is it widespread causing serious disease? It means different things to different people. So rather than try and give a definition, that's my definition versus another, we should stick with what the WHO is saying. And as Dr. Tedros said, that we're seeing the light at the end of the tunnel on that. So, again, you might interpret that, well, if that's the case, is it over? Well, again, what does "over" mean? There's a lot of semantics there, David. The easiest way not to confuse people is to say we still have a lot of cases, we still have 400 deaths, we only have 67 percent of the population vaccinated, we've got to do better than that. Of those, only one half have gotten a single boost. And as a nation, we lag behind other developed countries and even some low- and middle-income countries in the level of vaccinations that we've been able to implement. So if you want to look it that way, we have a lot of work to do, and that's exactly what the President said.
AF: 你知道,这是一个决定 由世界卫生组织正式发布。 你知道,我和我的同事 噢,那已经是十多年前的事了, 因为缺乏明确性 大流行对一个人和 另一个人意味着什么, 我们在传染病杂志上 写了一篇论文 我们在文中讨论了 所有各种不同的解释方式。 它是一种广泛传播的现象? 它全世界广泛传播的特质? 使得它正式成为大流行? 或是它广泛传播并增速发展? 或是它的广泛传播 导致了严重疾病? 它对不同的人 意味着不同的事情。 因此,与其试图给出一个定义, 我的或别人的的定义。 我们应该依照 世界卫生组织的说法。 正如谭德塞博士(Dr. Tedros)所说, 我们看到了隧道尽头的光。 所以,再一次,你可以因此解释 如果是这样的话,它结束了吗? 嗯,再说一遍, “结束”是什么意思? 大卫,那里有很多语义。 最简单又不迷惑人的说法是 我们还有很多病例, 我们仍有四百个死亡病例, 我们只有 67% 的人口接种了疫苗, 我们必须做得比这更好。 其中,只有一半打了一次增强剂。 作为一个国家, 我们落后于其他发达国家, 甚至一些中低收入国家, 在我们能够实施的疫苗接种水平上。 所以,如果你从这来看, 我们有很多工作要做。 这正是总统所说的。
DB: So speaking of vaccines, what's your advice? I know we have the bivalent available now. What is your advice on which vaccines to get and when that's appropriate? AF: Well, first, you've got to get your primary series. So, I mean, that's the one where I said only 67 percent of the country has gotten their primary series, which for the most part, with some exceptions, is an mRNA vaccine, either Moderna or Pfizer, given anywhere from three to four weeks apart as the primary. Then the issue is about giving people booster shots. So right now, if you're asking a clear question, of today, with the bivalent BA.4-5 boosters or updated vaccines is a better terminology to use, they are available now throughout the country. We've ordered 171 million doses. Who should get it? Anyone who is vaccinated with the primary series and has not received a shot longer than two months ago should get it. So if I got my last shot, let’s say in July -- August, September, two months later, you should get the bivalent. If you were infected three months or more ago, you should then get the updated vaccine.
DB: 说到疫苗, 你有什么建议? 我知道我们现在有二价的。 您对接种哪种疫苗有何建议? 以及什么时候合适? AF: 好的,首先, 你必须接种你的初级系列。 就是我上面说,只有 67% 我国的人口接种了 他们的初级系列, 在大多数情况下 除了一些例外, 是一种 mRNA 疫苗,莫德纳或辉瑞 作为的初级疫苗间隔 3 - 4周。 然后问题是给人们注射增强疫苗。 所以,现在 如果你问的是一个明确的问题 今天的, 有关二价 BA.4-5 增强剂 或更新疫苗 是一个更好使用的术语, 它们现在在全国各地都可以获得。 我们已经订购了 1.71 亿剂。 谁应该使用它? 任何接种过初级系列疫苗的人 没有打过一针 超过两个月, 应该接种它。 因此,如果我最后一次接种, 假设是在 7 月、8 月、9 月, 两个月后, 你应该接种二价的。 如果你在三个月前或更长时间被感染, 你应该接种更新的疫苗。
Let me give you an example for clarity for the audience. I was infected in the end of June of this year, even though I had been vaccinated. Fortunately, because I was vaccinated, I had a relatively mild illness. At my age, had I not been vaccinated, the chances are I could have had a real severe outcome because elderly are more prone to get severity of disease. So if you take the end of June, take the end of July, the end of August, the end of September. I plan to get my updated BA.4-5 bivalent at the end of September, the first week in October.
让我给你举个例子 为了让听众清楚。 我今年 6 月底被感染了, 即使我已经接种了疫苗。 幸运的是, 因为我接种了疫苗, 我的病相对比较轻。 在我这个年纪, 如果我没有接种疫苗, 我很有可能得到非常严重的后果 因为老年人更容易患上严重的疾病。 所以如果你拿六月底来算, 七月底,八月底 九月底 我计划接种更新的 BA.4-5 二价 九月底,十月的第一周。
DB: I think that’s a very useful advice, and actually I will be doing the same. How are you personally navigating this stage in the pandemic? What precautions are you taking, if any?
DB: 我认为这是一个非常有用的建议, 实际上我也会同样做。 您的个人是如何渡过 大流行的这一阶段? 您采取了什么预防措施 如果有的话?
AF: Well, I certainly continue to take precautions. And I think it's important that you ask me personally that question, because people have different levels of risk of severity of disease. I am a person who is relatively healthy, but I'm at an elderly age. I'm 81 years old. I'm going to be 82 in December. So I, statistically, would have more of a risk. So the precautions I take, I stay up to date on my vaccinations, number one. And when I go to a place that's a congregate indoor setting where there are a lot of people and I don't know the status of their infection, their vaccination or what have you, I would, for the most part, wear a mask. When I'm with people who I know what their status is, people who are recently vaccinated or people who come in and test before they come in, I could have a dinner in my home or in the home of a friend without any concern. But if I go to crowded places, certainly on an airplane, even though it isn't required any more, if I go on a prolonged or even a short airplane trip, again, because of my increased risk as an elderly person, I wear a mask on the plane.
AF: 当然,我当然会继续 采取预防措施。 我认为你问我个人 这个问题很重要, 因为人们患疾病严重程度的 风险水平不同。 我是一个相对健康的人, 但我在老年人年龄段。 我 81 岁了, 12 月我就 82 岁了。 所以,从统计上来说, 会有更大的风险。 所以我采取的预防措施: 我在疫苗接种上 保持最新状态,这是第一点。 当我去一个室内聚集的地方, 人多的地方, 并且,我不知道他们感染的状况, 他们的疫苗接种或有什么病。 大部分情况下,我会戴口罩。 当我知道他们状况的人, 在一起时, 最近接种了疫苗的人, 在他们来之前进行了测试的人, 我可以在我家 或者在朋友家里吃晚饭, 没有任何顾虑。 但如果我去拥挤的地方, 比如是在飞机上, 即使不再规定需要, 如果我去长时间 甚至是短暂的飞机旅行, 再次,因为作为老年人, 我的风险增加, 我在飞机上戴口罩。
DB: So switching gears a little bit, or taking a step back, are consecutive pandemics kind of our new reality? We obviously had the monkeypox outbreak. And if that is the case, how do we cope with consecutive pandemics? AF: Well, you know, we have had, probably without the general public noticing it much, we have had, in the history of our civilization, outbreaks of emerging infections, some of which turn into pandemics. We've had them before recorded history. We've had them in the lifetime of some of us, you and I. We're going through one right now. So given the fact that most of the outbreaks of new infections come from the animal-human interface, which is sometimes intruded upon, as it were, where people, either by climate change or by intruding on forests, “uninhabited by human” places in the world, you’re going to get jumping of species. Or in markets where you put animals from the wild in contact with humans, which is exactly what happened with SARS-CoV-1 and highly likely happened with SARS-CoV-2. We will continue to get outbreaks. Pandemic flu generally comes from a situation where you have the animal species that harbor influenza, pigs, fowl, birds and humans together in that environment. That's how you get the bird flu that tend to challenge us a fair amount or the swine flu.
DB:稍微换一下档, 或者停下来想一下, 连续大流行有点是我们的新现实吗? 我们显然爆发了猴痘。 如果是这样的话, 我们要如何应对连续的大流行呢? AF:嗯,你知道,我们曾经有, 可能公众没有注意到太多, 在我们的文明史上, 新兴感染的爆发, 其中一些演变成大流行。 我们有史记录之前就有过它们。 我们有的在 有生之年经历了,你和我。 我们现在正在经历着一次。 鉴于大多数新感染的爆发 来自动物与人的接触面, 它有时被侵扰, 当人类因气候变化,或者侵入了森林, 世界上的“无人区”, 你会得到物种的跨跃。 或者在市场上, 你把野生动物放在那里 与人类接触, 这正是 SARS-CoV-1 发生的情况, 并且极有可能 发生在 SARS-CoV-2 。 我们将持续爆发疫情。 大流行性流感 通常来自一种情况 那里有携带流感的动物, 猪、家禽, 鸟类和人类一起生活 在这样的环境中。 这就是你得禽流感的原因, 往往会给我们带来相当大的挑战 或者猪流感。
So the short answer to your question, David, is that we will continue to get outbreaks of new infections. The critical issue is how do you prevent them from becoming pandemics? And that's what's called pandemic preparedness, which is a combination of scientific preparedness, like we did with the rapid development of vaccines for COVID-19, which was a highly successful scientific endeavor, matched with a public health response, which we didn't do as well, in the public health response, because we had spread of infection in a way that we could have done better in controlling it.
对你问题的简短回答, 大卫, 我们将继续爆发新的感染吗? 关键问题是如何防止它们 成为大流行? 而这就称为大流行防备。 这是科学准备的组合, 就像我们快速生产 新冠肺炎疫苗, 这是一项非常成功的科学努力, 与公共卫生反应相匹配, 我们在公共卫生反应中 相对来说没有做好, 因为我们有感染传播, 我们本可以更好地控制它。
DB: So speaking of that, this is not your first epidemic, but you've made historic contributions to the AIDS epidemic and now COVID-19. But is there anything you wish you had done differently in those cases?
DB:说到这,这不是你的第一次流行病, 但是你对艾滋病的流行做出了 历史意义的贡献, 现在是新冠肺炎。 但你是否希望自己有任何事情 做得有所不同吗?
AF: Well, there always is. I mean, it's a question of when you're involved -- Nobody is perfect, certainly not I or any of my colleagues. But when you're dealing with an emerging, moving, dynamic target, which by definition is what a pandemic is, particularly if it's with a pathogen that you've never had experience with, like HIV in the very early 1980s, or the COVID-19 pandemic in the first months of 2020, you could always say, if we knew then what we know now, and there was a lot of things that we didn't know, we certainly would have done things differently. And that's why you have to be humble and modest to realize if you are going to be following the science, the science which gives you data and information and evidence is going to change, particularly in the early phases of the outbreak. Did we know how easily it was spread from human to human? No. Did we know that it was aerosol spread? No. We thought in the beginning it was like influenza, mostly droplets from a sick person. Did we know that 50 to 60 percent of the transmissions were [from] someone who had no symptoms at all, which clearly impacts how you approach an outbreak? Did we realize that instead of the typical outbreak, where it goes up, it comes down and then you're done with it, we had no concept that you'd be seeing different waves and different variants that came along. So the answer to your question, if we knew all of that from the beginning, we certainly would have done things differently. But unfortunately we didn't. And you try to be flexible enough and humble enough to change and modify how you approach things based on the recent data. That’s not flip-flopping. That is truly following the evidence and following the data.
AF:嗯,总是有。 我是说,这是一个 你何时参与的问题—— 没有人是完美的, 无论是我或我的任何同事。 但当你面对一个刚出现的 变化 ,动态目标, 按照定义,这就是大流行, 特别如果它是一种 你从未接触过的病原体, 就像 1980 年代初的 HIV 那样, 或新冠肺炎大流行, 在 2020 年的头几个月, 你总可以说, 如果我们当时 知道我们现在知道的, 那时我们有很多不知道的事, 我们肯定会做不同的事情。 这就是为什么 你必须谦逊和谦虚 意识到如果你要遵循科学, 科学为你提供数据、信息和证据 将会改变, 特别是在疫情暴发的早期阶段。 我们知道它在人与人之间传播有多容易吗? 不。 我们知道这是气溶胶传播吗? 不。 我们一开始以为这就像流感, 主要是病人的飞沫。 我们知道 50% 到 60% 的传播 来自完全没有症状的人吗? 这明显影响了你如何应对疫情。 我们有没有意识到, 它与典型的疫情不同, 它下来后你就完成了, 我们没有想到你会看到不同的浪潮 以及随之而来的不同变种。 所以你问题的答案是 如果我们从一开始就知道这一切, 我们肯定会做不同的事情。 但不幸的是,我们没有。 你努力做到足够灵活和谦逊 改变和修正你如何处理事情, 基于最新的数据。 这不是改变观点, 这是真正的遵循证据和数据。
DB: Right, that's just how science works, it's constantly updating and especially in a real-time situation like this pandemic. But are there any, I don't know, specific regrets you have, something you would take back if you could?
DB:是的,这就是科学的运作方式, 它不断更新, 尤其是在这次大流行 这样的实时情况下。 但我不知道你有没有什么特别的遗憾, 如果可以,你会收回的东西?
AF: Well, it depends. Yeah, I mean, obviously in the beginning when we were under the impression, or didn't fully realize that there was aerosol spread, we were under the impression, which was true, because we were told that, that there weren’t enough masks for the health care providers. And if we started everybody hoarding masks, there wouldn't be masks available to the health care providers. We didn't realize that out of the health care setting, like the hospital setting, that masks were effective in preventing acquisition and transmission. We didn't know that. We know it now for sure, but we didn't know it then. We didn't know that the silent spread from people who were without symptoms. And that meant we didn't know that, while we were looking for sick people, there were many, many, many more people without symptoms that were in society spreading the infection in a way that was not detectable, below the radar screen. Had we known that, I absolutely would have said right from the beginning, everybody wear a mask all the time in an indoor setting. But we didn't say that then. It was only when it became obvious. So if we had known that early on, we would have told people to wear a mask.
AF:嗯, 这得看情况。 是的,我的意思是,很明显, 一开始我们在印象中, 或者没有充分意识到有气溶胶传播, 我们就有这样的印象,这是真的, 因为我们被告知, 没有足够的口罩供医护人员使用。 如果我们开始大家囤积口罩, 不会有口罩可提供给医疗工作者。 我们没有意识到在医疗环境中 比如医院环境, 口罩能有效防止感染和传播。 我们当时不知道。 我们现在肯定知道, 但当时我们不知道。 我们不知道无声的传播 来自没有症状的人 这意味着我们在寻找病人时不知道, 有很多、很多、很多 没有症状的人在社区中 正传播着感染 以一种无法检测的方式 在关注范围以下。 如果我们知道, 我绝对会从一开始就说, 在室内环境中, 每个人都要戴口罩。 但我们当时没有这么说。 只有当它变得明显时。 所以如果我们早就知道了, 我们会告诉人们戴口罩。
However, I must say, David, given the reluctance of people to wear masks, even now that we know all that stuff, I'm wondering how well that would have been received if at a time when there were ten or so documented infections, if you told the country that everybody should wear a mask in an indoor setting, not so sure that would have been broadly accepted.
然而,我必须说,大卫, 鉴于人们不愿戴口罩, 即使现在我们知道了所有这些, 我仍在琢磨接受程度会怎么样, 如果有十个左右的感染记录。 如果你告诉国家 每个人在室内都应该戴口罩, 不太确定这会被广泛接受。
DB: Yeah. And this seems to be something that, the United States anyway, has been through before, with the Spanish flu and masking and then anti-mask protests. And it seems to be in our, let's say, societal immune response to these pandemics.
DB:是的, 这似乎是这样的。 反正美国也经历过 西班牙流感, 戴口罩和反口罩的抗议。 它似乎在我们的,比方说, 社会对这些流行病的免疫反应。
Flipping it a little bit, how do we make sure we're not caught so, sort of, unprepared next time?
稍微翻转一下, 我们如何确保下次 不会被抓得措手不及?
AF: Well, you know, it's interesting, David, what you mean by unprepared, because the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health evaluated different countries' preparedness for a pandemic. And guess who was evaluated to be first in the world? The United States of America. Guess who has the most deaths per population? The United States of America. So, you know, there's preparedness, and there's response, there's execution of your preparedness plans that we did not do so well for any of a number of complicated reasons, one of which was the fact, and is, that this outbreak occurred at a time of really profound and deep divisiveness in our own country. That where we had something we hadn't seen before, where political ideology played a role in whether you did or did not accept the recommended public health countermeasures, be it wearing a mask, indoor settings, quarantining, taking a vaccine, getting a boost. If you look at the country and look at the demography of the country with regard to ideology, there should never be that red states vaccinate much less than blue states. There's no reason for that at all because public health risks and public health implementation should be uniform throughout. And we didn't see that.
AF:你知道,这很有趣,大卫, 你所说的毫无准备, 因为约翰·霍普金斯公共卫生学院 评估了不同国家应对大流行的准备情况。 猜猜谁被评为世界第一? 美利坚合众国。 猜猜谁的死亡人数最多? 美利坚合众国。 所以,你知道,这是准备, 而那是响应, 那是防备计划的执行力 我们做得不够好。 由于许多复杂原因, 其中之一是事实, 就是,这次疫情发生在 我们自己国家非常严重分歧的时刻。 在我们以前没见过的地方, 那政治意识形态影响了, 你接受或不接受 公共卫生所推荐的对策 无论是戴口罩, 在室内环境, 隔离,接种疫苗,接种增强剂 如果你看这个国家 看看这个国家 在意识形态相关的人口结构, 疫苗接种量永远不应该 红州比蓝色州少很多。 这根本没有理由 因为公共卫生风险, 公共卫生实施应到处一样。 我们没有看到。
DB: Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit more because obviously, you've had to cope with an incredibly polarized response to your work in which not just ordinary citizens, but even politicians have called for your resignation and various other things. How do you deal with that, how do you keep your cool? You're quite cool about this.
DB:是的,让我们再谈一谈, 因为很明显, 您不得不应对令人难以置信的两极化反应。 您的工作, 不仅是普通公民, 但就连政客都要求您辞职, 以及其他各种事情。 您是怎么处理的, 您是怎么保持冷静的? 您对此很冷静。
AF: Well, calling for your resignation is mild compared to having somebody arrested who was trying to kill you. So, I mean, there's a big spectrum of pushing back against public health people. And that's one of the really unfortunate things. I mean, I keep my cool because that's just the nature of the kind of person that I am. When you're dealing with a very, very difficult situation, you've got to keep your cool. I mean, I learned that in my early training in medicine. When you're in the middle of emergency, somebody is dying in front of you, you've got to keep your cool all the time. And that's something that's just part of my inherent training as a physician and as a person. But what we faced was well beyond that. I mean, public health officials, not only myself, I'm a very visible one, but many of my colleagues are being threatened and hassled and harassed, themselves and their families, the way my family is being harassed, merely because of saying things that are purely public health, common sense, tried and true principles of how to keep people safe. That is really extraordinary that that's going on in our country.
AF:嗯,要求你辞职是温和的, 与逮捕某人相比 他想杀了你。 所以,我的意思是 有很多人反对公共卫生人员。 这是一件非常不幸的事情。 我是说,我保持冷静, 因为这是本性, 我是那种人。 当你面对非常非常困难的局面时, 你必须保持冷静 在早期医学培训中 我就学会了这一点。 当你处于紧急状态时, 有人在你面前将要死去 你必须一直保持冷静。 这只是我固有训练的一部分 作为一名医生和一个人。 但我们面临的远不止这些。 我的意思是,公共卫生官员, 不仅是我自己,我是一个非常显眼的人 但我的许多同事都受到威胁和烦扰, 被骚扰, 他们自己和他们的家人、 我的家人被骚扰的方式, 仅仅因为说了些什么 纯粹的公共卫生常识, 久经考验的 如何保护人们安全的真实原则。 在我们国家发生的事情真的很不寻常。
DB: Yeah. I'm also going to ascribe it to the Brooklyn upbringing. That gave you some cool, too.
DB:是啊。 我还要把这归于布鲁克林的培养。 这也让你很酷。
(Laughter)
(笑声)
But a quick follow up, how do you, like, with all that going on, with those horrifying threats, how do you unwind from all this? How do you, you know, keep it together and give yourself some space to breathe?
但一个快速追踪 您是怎么,比如 所有这些都在发生, 还有那些可怕的威胁, 您是怎么从这一切中解脱出来的呢? 您是怎么做到挺住的 给自己一些喘息的空间?
AF: Well, I have an extraordinarily supportive family, my wife who's with me, my children are grown and live in different parts of the country. But they are very supportive of me with texts and calls and knowing what I'm going through. So I have three daughters, which they, you know, they try to take care of their daddy, so it really helps. But my wife is extremely supportive, and we do things together. I mean, I work a preposterous amount of hours a day, but every day I try to get some exercise in and it's usually a few mile walk with my wife, whether that's on the weekends very early in the morning, or during the week late at night when I come home. We try to get some form of exercise in to diffuse the tension, hopefully every day. And we're pretty successful at that.
AF:我有一个非常支持我的家庭, 我妻子和我在一起, 我长大的孩子,她们生活在国家的不同地方, 但她们非常支持我, 通过发短信和打电话, 知道我正在经历什么。 我有三个女儿,你知道的, 她们尽力照顾他们的爸爸, 所以这真的很有帮助。 而我妻子非常支持我, 我们一起做事。 我的意思是, 我每天工作的时间多得离谱, 但每天我都努力做些运动, 通常和我妻子走几英里, 无论是在周末的清晨, 或者在工作日的深夜 我回家时。 我们试图通过一些锻炼 来缓解压力, 希望每天都如此, 我们在这方面非常成功。
AF: Well, good for you. So you're retiring after a very long and distinguished career. Congratulations. You will have successors. What lessons would you want to offer your successors based on your tenure?
DB:嗯,这对您很有好处! 所以,您在经历了 漫长而杰出的职业生涯之后,即将退休。 恭喜! 你会有接班人。 您希望为您的继任者提供哪些经验教训? 基于您的任职
AF: First of all, I’m not retiring in the classic sense. As my wife, says, David, I’m “rewiring,” not retiring, because I do intend to be very active. And that was one of the reasons why I stepped down at this point in time. Because while I still have the enthusiasm, the energy and thank goodness, the good health to be able to do something else for the next few years, I want to use the benefit of my experience of being at the NIH for almost 60 years, for being the director of the Institute for 38 years, and for having the privilege of advising seven presidents of the United States on public health issues, to use that experience to hopefully inspire by writing, reading, traveling, lecturing, inspiring the younger generation of scientists and would-be scientists to at least consider a career in public service, particularly in the arena of public health, and science and medicine.
AF:首先,我不是传统意义上的退休。 正如我妻子所说,大卫, 我正在“重新布线”,而不是退休, 因为我确实打算非常活跃。 这也是我走下来的原因之一 在这个时间点。 因为当我还有热情, 精力充沛,谢天谢地,身体健康, 能够在接下来的几年里 做一些其他的事情, 我想利用我在 NIH 的经验 有将近 60 年的时间 担任研究所所长 38 年, 并有幸 为七位美国总统提供提供咨询 关于公共卫生问题, 希望利用这段经历激发写作的灵感, 阅读、旅行、演讲, 激励年轻一代科学家和未来科学家 至少考虑从事公共服务, 特别是在公共卫生领域, 以及科学和医学。
Having said that, my advice to the person who will ultimately replace me would be to focus on the science and be consistent with the science and do not get distracted by a lot of the peripheral things, the disinformation, the misinformation, the attacks on medicine and science and public health. Focus like a laser beam on what your job is and don't get distracted by all the other noise that's out there because there is a lot more noise now than there was a few decades ago. And by noise, I mean misinformation and disinformation about science.
话说回来, 我对那最终接替我的人的建议 将是专注于科学, 并与科学保持一致 并且被很多周围事物分心, 虚假信息,错误信息, 对医学、科学和公共卫生的攻击。 像激光束一样专注于你的工作上, 不要被外面其他的噪音所分心, 因为现在有更多的噪音 与几十年前相比。 我所说的噪音是指 对于科学的错误信息和虚假信息。
DB: For sure. I've definitely noticed that as the science curator. But pivoting a bit, let's talk about hope. What gives you hope about the future? Are there treatments or other things coming down the pipeline that you're excited about?
DB:当然。 作为科学馆长, 我确切地注意到了这一点 但是稍转一下,让我们谈谈希望。 是什么让您对未来充满希望? 是否有治疗或其他办法陆续到来 让您感到兴奋?
AF: Well, science is an absolutely phenomenal discipline. It's discovery. It's ... brand new knowledge. Pushing back the frontiers of knowledge that we would not have imagined we would be in. If you look at medicine and science, how it's changed in a very, very positive way from the time I stepped into medical school in 1962 to the time now of the things that are available to me as a physician and as a scientist. I have great hope that if we continue the investments in basic and applied science, that we will be able to accomplish things in the arena of health, individual health, and public health and global health that were really unimaginable just decades ago. So I have a great deal of optimism about what the future holds for science and medicine.
AF:嗯,科学是一门绝对了不起的学科, 它是去发现。 它是…… 全新的知识, 推动知识的前沿, 我们不会想象我们会在会在其中。 如果你看看医学和科学, 它是如何以非常、 非常积极的方式改变的。 从我踏入医学院在 1962 年 到现在为止,我可用的东西, 作为一名医生和科学家。 我有很大的希望, 如果我们继续投资于基础和应用科学, 我们将能够完成事情。 在健康领域,个人健康, 公共卫生和全球卫生。 就在几十年前,这真的是难以想象的。 所以我非常乐观 对于科学和医学的未来。
And that's the reason why one of the things I'm going to try and do in my rewired post-government life is to encourage young individuals to consider a career in medicine, science and public health, because the opportunities are really limitless. We are at a stage now the likes of which people who antidated us never would have imagined the opportunities in science that we have. So I'm very optimistic about where we're going.
这就是为什么我要尝试做的一件事, 在我重新规划的后政府生活中 鼓励年轻人考虑从事医学职业, 科学和公共卫生, 因为机会真的是无限的。 我们现在正处于这样一个阶段, 那些以前的人 从未想象得到 我们拥有的科学机会。 所以我对我们的发展方向非常乐观。
DB: Me, too. But you mentioned earlier how climate change is affecting pandemics. What worries you about the future that we're facing?
DB:我也是。 但您之前提到气候变化 如何影响大流行, 您对我们所面临的未来感到担忧的是什么?
AF: Well, just some of the things that you mentioned. We do have a growing element of anti-science in society. Disturbingly, growing in the United States. And when I talk to my colleagues internationally, depending upon the country that they live in to a greater or lesser degree, there's some element of that. The thing that bothers me is a denial of science and what science is showing us. A denial of the issues of climate and the environment, a denial of scientific principles and conspiracy theories about things that push people away. I mean, some of them are laughable, but you would be astounded, David, at the number of people who believe it. That the vaccines were made by Bill Gates and I and we put a chip in it so that we could follow people around and know what they're doing and get into their head. The idea that there's a conspiracy, that we’re making billions of dollars on vaccines, and that's why people are promoting vaccines, so that people like me and others who are public figures ... I mean, based on no data. But once it gets into the social media, it explodes and conspiracy theories explode. Even though all of the evidence proves it wrong, proving something wrong today doesn't seem to matter much. That's really strange and weird, isn't it, David?
嗯,只是你提到的一些事情, 我们的社会中 确实有越来越多的反科学因素。 令人不安的是, 在美国增长。 当我和国际上的同事交谈时, 取决于他们居住的国家 或多或少地, 这其中有一些因素。 困扰我的事情 是对科学以及 科学向我们展示的东西的否定。 否认气候和环境问题, 否认科学原则, 以及把人推开的阴谋论。 我的意思是,有些很可笑, 但你会感到惊讶,大卫, 相信它的人数之多。 疫苗是由比尔·盖茨和我制造的, 我们在里面放了一个芯片, 这样我们就能到处跟踪人, 知道他们在做什么并进入他们的头脑。 有个构想、有阴谋的想法, 我们在疫苗上赚了数十亿美元, 这就是人们推广疫苗的原因, 所以像我这样的人和其他公众人物…… 我的意思是,没有数据基础。 但一旦它进入社交媒体, 它炸开了,阴谋论炸开了, 尽管所有证据都证明这是错误的, 证明一些错误,今天似乎无关紧要。 这真的很奇怪,很怪诞, 不是吗,大卫?
DB: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's, I think, an old phenomenon. There's a famous saying that I'm going to mangle about by the time the truth gets out of the barn, the lie is halfway around the world. And that's definitely the world we're living in.
DB:是的,是的。 嗯,我认为这是一个古老的现象。 有一句名言我要说, 当真相传出谷仓时, 这个谎言绕了半个地球。 这绝对是我们现在生活的世界。
I do know you have to go and, you know, finish out your tenure and then get ready for your rewiring, which I'm excited about. I'm excited to see what's next. But do you have a last bit of advice for the public? One thing you hope everyone takes away from your time as director and your time in public health?
我知道您要走了, 结束您的任期, 然后准备好重新布线, 这让我很兴奋。 我很高兴看到接下来会发生什么。 但您对公众有最后一点建议吗? 您希望每个人都能从 您院长任期带走的一样东西 以及您在公共卫生领域的时间?
AF: Yeah, David, there are so many things, but I think one thing that stands out, particularly in the climate and the environment that we're in right now, is that people need to get involved in a proactive way in spreading the truth about what scientific principles are and what they mean and how they can be of great benefit to society and to try and make our population more science literate than it is right now by talking about things. The truth, you know, the easiest way to counter misinformation and disinformation is to be enthusiastic about spreading correct information. A little bit about the metaphor that you said about the truth and lies. Be spreaders of facts and truth. Everybody's got to be a contributor to that. And that's one of the things I think we can do better.
AF:是的,大卫,有太多了, 但我认为有一点很突出, 特别是在气候和环境方面, 我们正处在的 人们需要以积极主动的方式参与, 传播关于什么是真正科学原则, 以及它们的含义, 以及它们如何对社会产生巨大的益处, 并努力让我们的人口 比现在更懂科学, 通过讨论事情。 事实,你知道,最简单的方法 去打击错误信息和虚假信息, 就是要热心传播正确的信息。 关于你所说的关于真相和谎言的比喻 成为事实和真理的传播者。 每个人都必须为此做出贡献。 这就是其中一件我认为 我们可以做得更好的事。
DB: Yeah, I would agree. And we're definitely trying here at TED. Well, Dr. Fauci, I know our members are incredibly thankful, I personally am incredibly thankful. So thank you so much for your work and for joining us today.
DB:是的,我同意。 我们正在 TED 这里尝试这样做。 福奇博士我知道我们的成员非常感激, 我个人非常感激。 非常感谢您所做的工作和今天加入我们,
AF: My pleasure, David, thank you so much for having me.
AF:这是我的荣幸, 大卫,非常感谢你邀请我。
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