Chris Anderson: So, you've been obsessed with this problem for the last few years. What is the problem, in your own words?
克里斯安德森:過去幾年間 你都投入在這個問題上。 用你的話來說,問題是什麼?
Andrew Forrest: Plastic. Simple as that. Our inability to use it for the tremendous energetic commodity that it is, and just throw it away.
安德魯福雷斯特: 塑膠。就這麼簡單。 我們對塑膠並沒有發揮 充分再利用的能力, 只會把它們丟了。
CA: And so we see waste everywhere. At its extreme, it looks a bit like this. I mean, where was this picture taken?
克:所以到處可見浪費。 最極端的狀況看起來 有點像是這樣。 這張照片是在哪裡拍的?
AF: That's in the Philippines, and you know, there's a lot of rivers, ladies and gentlemen, which look exactly like that. And that's the Philippines. So it's all over Southeast Asia.
安:是在菲律賓。 各位先生女士,在那裡, 有很多像這樣的河流。 那是菲律賓。所以, 在東南亞到處都是。
CA: So plastic is thrown into the rivers, and from there, of course, it ends up in the ocean. I mean, we obviously see it on the beaches, but that's not even your main concern. It's what's actually happening to it in the oceans. Talk about that.
克:所以塑膠被丟入河中,當然, 最後會流入海洋。 很顯然,我們在海灘上 都會看到塑膠, 但你最關心的議題並不是這個。 是它們在海洋中會如何。 跟我們談談這點。
AF: OK, so look. Thank you, Chris. About four years ago, I thought I'd do something really barking crazy, and I committed to do a PhD in marine ecology. And the scary part about that was, sure, I learned a lot about marine life, but it taught me more about marine death and the extreme mass ecological fatality of fish, of marine life, marine mammals, very close biology to us, which are dying in the millions if not trillions that we can't count at the hands of plastic.
安:好。謝謝你,克里斯。 大約四年前,我…… 想要做件非常瘋狂的事, 我決定去攻讀海洋生態博士學位。 比較可怕的部分在於, 的確,我學到很多海洋的生命, 但卻學到更多海洋的死亡, 以及很極端的大量生態死亡, 包括魚類、海洋生物、 海洋哺乳類, 和我們非常近親的生物, 死亡的數目到達上兆, 要不是死了這麼多, 我們都還不知道兇手竟是塑膠。
CA: But people think of plastic as ugly but stable. Right? You throw something in the ocean, "Hey, it'll just sit there forever. Can't do any damage, right?"
克:但人們認為塑膠 雖然醜陋但很穩定,對吧? 你把塑膠丟到海洋中: 「嘿,它會永遠待在那裡。 不會造成傷害吧?」
AF: See, Chris, it's an incredible substance designed for the economy. It is the worst substance possible for the environment. The worst thing about plastics, as soon as it hits the environment, is that it fragments. It never stops being plastic. It breaks down smaller and smaller and smaller, and the breaking science on this, Chris, which we've known in marine ecology for a few years now, but it's going to hit humans. We are aware now that nanoplastic, the very, very small particles of plastic, carrying their negative charge, can go straight through the pores of your skin. That's not the bad news. The bad news is that it goes straight through the blood-brain barrier, that protective coating which is there to protect your brain. Your brain's a little amorphous, wet mass full of little electrical charges. You put a negative particle into that, particularly a negative particle which can carry pathogens -- so you have a negative charge, it attracts positive-charge elements, like pathogens, toxins, mercury, lead. That's the breaking science we're going to see in the next 12 months.
安:克里斯, 對經濟而言,設計出塑膠 這種物質是很了不起的。 但對環境而言,它是最糟糕的物質。 塑膠最糟糕的一點是, 當它們進入到環境中, 它們會破碎掉。 它們永遠都會是塑膠。 它們會碎成越來越小塊, 克里斯,關於這點 有個驚人的科學, 在海洋生態學領域 我們幾年前就知道了, 但它將會衝擊人類。 我們現在知道奈米塑膠, 也就是非常小的塑膠粒子, 會帶負電, 直接穿過你皮膚上的毛孔。 那還不是壞消息。壞消息是, 它們會直接穿越血腦內的屏障, 也就是保護你大腦的障壁。 大腦是一塊沒有固定形狀的 濕物體,充滿了小小的電荷。 你腦內跑進了負電粒子, 特別是帶有 病原體的負電粒子—— 負電菏會吸引正電荷的元素, 比如病原體、毒物、 銀、鉛。 在接下來的十二個月, 我們就會看到這項科學新知。
CA: So already I think you told me that there's like 600 plastic bags or so for every fish that size in the ocean, something like that. And they're breaking down, and there's going to be ever more of them, and we haven't even seen the start of the consequences of that.
克:我想你有跟我說過, 對每一條那種大小的魚, 就有大約六百個塑膠袋。 它們在瓦解, 且將來會有更多, 我們還沒有開始看到後果。
AF: No, we really haven't. The Ellen MacArthur Foundation, they're a bunch of good scientists, we've been working with them for a while. I've completely verified their work. They say there will be one ton of plastic, Chris, for every three tons of fish by, not 2050 -- and I really get impatient with people who talk about 2050 -- by 2025. That's around the corner. That's just the here and now. You don't need one ton of plastic to completely wipe out marine life. Less than that is going to do a fine job at it. So we have to end it straightaway. We've got no time.
安:沒有,還沒看到。 艾倫麥克阿瑟基金會, 他們是一群很棒的科學家, 我們和他們合作了一陣子。 完全驗證了他們的研究。 克里斯,他們說,每三噸魚類 就會有一噸塑膠, 不是 2050 年的預測—— 我對談 2050 年的人很沒耐心—— 是 2025 年的預測。 很快就要到了。 近在咫尺了。 不用一噸的塑膠就可以 讓海洋生命完全消失。 不用那麼多塑膠 就可以辦到且做得很好。 所以我們得馬上阻止它。 我們沒有時間了。
CA: OK, so you have an idea for ending it, and you're coming at this not as a typical environmental campaigner, I would say, but as a businessman, as an entrepreneur, who has lived -- you've spent your whole life thinking about global economic systems and how they work. And if I understand it right, your idea depends on heroes who look something like this. What's her profession?
克:好,所以你有點子可以 阻止它,且你在處理這件事 扮演的角色不是 典型的環境活動家, 而是生意人、企業家,曾經—— 你一生都在思考全球經濟系統, 以及它們如何運作。 如果我的理解正確, 你的點子要仰賴 像這樣子的英雄。 她的職業是什麼?
AF: She, Chris, is a ragpicker, and there were 15, 20 million ragpickers like her, until China stopped taking everyone's waste. And the price of plastic, minuscule that it was, collapsed. That led to people like her, which, now -- she is a child who is a schoolchild. She should be at school. That's probably very akin to slavery. My daughter Grace and I have met hundreds of people like her.
安:克里斯,她是撿破爛的人, 曾經有一千五百萬 或兩千萬個像她這樣的人, 後來中國不再接收大家的廢物。 塑膠的價格本來就很低, 之後就暴跌了。 導致像她這樣的人, 現在——她是個孩子,學童。 她應該要上學的。 那和奴隸制度差不多了。 我女兒葛雷絲和我見過 數百名像她這樣的人。
CA: And there are many adults as well, literally millions around the world, and in some industries, they actually account for the fact that, for example, we don't see a lot of metal waste in the world.
克:還有許多成人, 全世界有數百萬名, 在一些產業中, 他們其實造成了,比如, 我們在世界上不會 看到很多金屬廢棄物。 安:沒錯。
AF: That's exactly right. That little girl is, in fact, the hero of the environment. She's in competition with a great big petrochemical plant which is just down the road, the three-and-a-half-billion-dollar petrochemical plant. That's the problem. We've got more oil and gas in plastic and landfill than we have in the entire oil and gas resources of the United States. So she is the hero. And that's what that landfill looks like, ladies and gentlemen, and it's solid oil and gas.
事實上,那個女孩是環境的英雄。 她在和同一條路上的 大型石化工廠競爭, 一間三十五億美金的 石化工廠。那就是問題。 我們在塑膠和垃圾 掩埋場中的石油和天然氣, 比美國所有的石油 和天然氣資源還要多。 所以她是英雄。 各位先生女士, 這就是垃圾掩埋場的模樣, 那是很實在的石油和天然氣。
CA: So there's huge value potentially locked up in there that the world's ragpickers would, if they could, make a living from. But why can't they?
克:所以在那裡藏著很高的價值, 如果能的話,世界上揀破爛的人 可以靠這裡維持生計。 但為什麼不能?
AF: Because we have ingrained in us a price of plastic from fossil fuels, which sits just under what it takes to economically and profitably recycle plastic from plastic. See, all plastic is is building blocks from oil and gas. Plastic's 100 percent polymer, which is 100 percent oil and gas. And you know we've got enough plastic in the world for all our needs. And when we recycle plastic, if we can't recycle it cheaper than fossil fuel plastic, then, of course, the world just sticks to fossil fuel plastic.
安:因為我們對於 來自化石燃料的塑膠 有個根深蒂固的價格, 它剛好就低於 能經濟地、有利潤地從塑膠 回收塑膠所要花的價值。 所有的塑膠都是 石油和天然氣的基礎材料。 塑膠是 100% 的聚合物, 聚合物是 100% 的石油和天然氣。 你知道在世界上有足夠的塑膠 能滿足我們所有的需求。 當我們回收塑膠時, 如果我們無法讓回收塑膠價格 比化石燃料塑膠還低, 當然全世界還是會 繼續用化石燃料塑膠。
CA: So that's the fundamental problem, the price of recycled plastic is usually more than the price of just buying it made fresh from more oil. That's the fundamental problem.
克:所以,那是根本的問題, 回收塑膠的價格通常比較高, 高於購買直接從石油製造的塑膠。 那就是根本的問題。
AF: A slight tweak of the rules here, Chris. I'm a commodity person. I understand that we used to have scrap metal and rubbish iron and bits of copper lying all round the villages, particularly in the developing world. And people worked out it's got a value. It's actually an article of value, not of waste. Now the villages and the cities and the streets are clean, you don't trip over scrap copper or scrap iron now, because it's an article of value, it gets recycled.
安:這裡要稍微 扭轉一下規則,克里斯。 我是做商品的人。 我知道我們以前 在村落各處都可以見到 廢金屬、不要的鐵,還有一些銅, 特別是在開發中世界。 大家發現它們是有價值的。 它們是有價值的物品, 不是廢棄物。 村落、城市、街道現在都很乾淨, 現在你不會被廢銅或廢鐵給絆倒, 因為它們是有價值的物品, 它們會被回收。
CA: So what's your idea, then, to try to change that in plastics?
克:所以,你有什麼點子 可以改變塑膠的狀況?
AF: OK, so Chris, for most part of that PhD, I've been doing research. And the good thing about being a businessperson who's done OK at it is that people want to see you. Other businesspeople, even if you're kind of a bit of a zoo animal species they'd like to check out, they'll say, yeah, OK, we'll all meet Twiggy Forrest. And so once you're in there, you can interrogate them. And I've been to most of the oil and gas and fast-moving consumer good companies in the world, and there is a real will to change. I mean, there's a couple of dinosaurs who are going to hope for the best and do nothing, but there's a real will to change. So what I've been discussing is, the seven and a half billion people in the world don't actually deserve to have their environment smashed by plastic, their oceans rendered depauperate or barren of sea life because of plastic. So you come down that chain, and there's tens of thousands of brands which we all buy heaps of products from, but then there's only a hundred major resin producers, big petrochemical plants, that spew out all the plastic which is single use.
安:好,所以,克里斯, 攻讀博士學位時, 我一直在做研究。 身為生意做的不錯的 生意人,有一個好處, 就是其他生意人會願意見你。 即使你有點像是他們會 想要看看的動物園物種, 他們會說,好,我們就來見見 崔姬(綽號)福雷斯特。 一旦你進去了,你就能質問他們。 我去過全世界大部分 石油和天然氣及快速流動 消費性商品公司, 他們真的有想改變的意願。 還是有一些恐龍, 希望有最好的結果但什麼都不做, 但真的還是有想改變的意願。 所以,我一直在討論的是, 全世界七十五億人 不應該得到一個 被塑膠搗毀的環境, 因為塑膠,我們的海洋產生出 衰弱或不孕的海洋生命。 沿著產業鏈追下去, 有數萬個我們會購買的品牌與塑膠有關, 但只有一百個主要的樹脂生產者, 大型石化廠, 製造出所有只用過一次的塑膠。
CA: So one hundred companies are right at the base of this food chain, as it were.
克:所以,一百間公司 位在這個食物鏈的根基處。 安:是的。
AF: Yeah.
CA: And so what do you need those one hundred companies to do?
克:所以你需要 這一百家公司做什麼?
AF: OK, so we need them to simply raise the value of the building blocks of plastic from oil and gas, which I call "bad plastic," raise the value of that, so that when it spreads through the brands and onto us, the customers, we won't barely even notice an increase in our coffee cup or Coke or Pepsi, or anything.
安:好,我們只需要 他們提高基礎材料的價值, 來自石油和天然氣的 基礎材料的價值, 我稱這些塑膠為「不好的塑膠」, 提高它們的價值, 所以當這些塑膠透過品牌 散播到我們客人這裡時, 我們幾乎不會注意到 我們的咖啡杯有一點點漲價, 或者可樂,或者任何東西。
CA: Like, what, like a cent extra?
克:比如多一分錢美金?
AF: Less. Quarter of a cent, half a cent. It'll be absolutely minimal. But what it does, it makes every bit of plastic all over the world an article of value. Where you have the waste worst, say Southeast Asia, India, that's where the wealth is most.
安:更少。四分之一或半分錢。 會是最微小的。 但它的作用是, 它會讓全世界的每一塊塑膠 都變成有價值的物品。 在廢棄物問題最嚴重的地方, 比如東南亞、印度, 那些地方的油水也最多。
CA: OK, so it feels like there's two parts to this. One is, if they will charge more money but carve out that excess and pay it -- into what? -- a fund operated by someone to tackle this problem of -- what? What would that money be used for, that they charge the extra for?
克:好,所以聽起來有兩部分。 第一,如果他們願意把價格定高一點, 但將多出來的部分拿出來 付給——什麼?—— 某人運作的基金, 用來處理這個問題—— 額外收取的這些錢 會被拿來做什麼用途?
AF: So when I speak to really big businesses, I say, "Look, I need you to change, and I need you to change really fast," their eyes are going to peel over in boredom, unless I say, "And it's good business." "OK, now you've got my attention, Andrew." So I say, "Right, I need you to make a contribution to an environmental and industry transition fund. Over two or three years, the entire global plastics industry can transition from getting its building blocks from fossil fuel to getting its building blocks from plastic. The technology is out there. It's proven." I've taken two multibillion-dollar operations from nothing, recognizing that the technology can be scaled. I see at least a dozen technologies in plastic to handle all types of plastic. So once those technologies have an economic margin, which this gives them, that's where the global public will get all their plastic from, from existing plastic.
安:當我和非常大的企業談時, 我會說:「聽著,我需要你改變, 我需要你快速改變,」 他們的眼中就會流露出厭倦, 除非我說:「這是好生意。」 「好,你引起我的 注意了,安德魯。」 我會說:「我需要你對 環境及產業轉型基金做一點貢獻。 經過二或三年, 整個全球塑膠產業 能成功轉型,本來是 從化石燃料取得基礎材料, 轉變成從塑膠取得基礎材料。 技術已經存在。已獲證實。」 我曾經從無到有建立起 兩間數十億美金價值的公司, 因為我知道技術可以擴大規模。 我知道有十多種塑膠技術 可以處理各種塑膠。 一旦那些技術規模化後 有了經濟方面的利潤, 這些技術會為他們帶來好處, 接著全球大眾就會 從那裡取得塑膠, 從既有塑膠取得。
CA: So every sale of virgin plastic contributes money to a fund that is used to basically transition the industry and start to pay for things like cleanup and other pieces.
克:所以,凡是銷售初次使用的 塑膠,要對基金貢獻一點錢, 基本上,基金會被用來轉型產業, 並開始支付其它工作, 比如清理塑膠等等。
AF: Absolutely. Absolutely.
安:沒錯。沒錯。
CA: And it has the incredible side benefit, which is maybe even the main benefit, of creating a market. It suddenly makes recyclable plastic a giant business that can unlock millions of people around the world to find a new living collecting it.
克:這會帶來很好的邊際利益, 還有可能是主要利益, 創造出另一種市場的概念。 突然間,回收塑膠會變成 一個巨型產業,讓全世界數百萬人 透過塑膠回收 找到新的賺錢方式。
AF: Yeah, exactly. So all you do is, you've got fossil fuel plastics at this value and recycled plastic at this value. You change it. So recycled plastic is cheaper. What I love about this most, Chris, is that, you know, we waste into the environment 300, 350 million tons of plastic. On the oil and gas companies own accounts, it's going to grow to 500 million tons. This is an accelerating problem. But every ton of that is polymer. Polymer is 1,000 dollars, 1,500 dollars a ton. That's half a trillion dollars which could go into business and could create jobs and opportunities and wealth right across the world, particularly in the most impoverished. Yet we throw it away.
安:沒錯。 所以,要做的就是, 化石燃料塑膠是這個價值, 而回收塑膠則是這個價值。 改變它。 所以回收塑膠比較便宜。 克里斯,關於這個方法 我最喜歡的一點是, 我們已經把 3003.5 億噸的塑膠 棄至環境中浪費掉了。 石油和天然氣公司它們自己有算過, 即將成長到五億噸。 這是個不斷在加速的問題。 但每一噸都是聚合物。 一噸聚合物算一千、 一千五百美金。 那就有五千億美金的生意可以做, 可以在全世界創造 工作機會和財富, 特別是在最窮困的地方。 但我們卻將之丟棄。
CA: So this would allow the big companies to invest in recycling plants literally all over the world --
克:所以這會讓大公司 在世界各地有塑膠的地方 投資回收廠——
AF: All over the world. Because the technology is low-capital cost, you can put it in at rubbish dumps, at the bottom of big hotels, garbage depots, everywhere, turn that waste into resin.
安:在世界各地。 因為這項技術是低資本的, 可以把它放在廢棄場、 大飯店底下、垃圾場,任何地方, 將廢棄物轉換成樹脂。
CA: Now, you're a philanthropist, and you're ready to commit some of your own wealth to this. What is the role of philanthropy in this project?
克:你是個慈善家, 你已經準備好將自己的 部分財富投入在這裡。 在這個計畫中, 慈善扮演的角色是?
AF: I think what we have to do is kick in the 40 to 50 million US dollars to get it going, and then we have to create absolute transparency so everyone can see exactly what's going on. From the resin producers to the brands to the consumers, everyone gets to see who is playing the game, who is protecting the Earth, and who doesn't care. And that'll cost about a million dollars a week, and we're going to underwrite that for five years. Total contribution is circa 300 million US dollars.
安:我想我們能做的就是 先捐出四千到五千萬美金的初始基金, 讓這個計畫動起來, 接著,我們得要創造出 絕對的透明度, 大家都能知道所有的狀況。 從樹脂生產者, 到品牌,到消費者, 大家都能知道有誰在參與遊戲、 誰在保護地球、誰不在乎。 那每週會需要花費一百萬美金, 而我們將會承擔五年的費用。 大約要貢獻出三億美金。
CA: Wow. Now --
克:哇。 那——
(Applause)
(掌聲)
You've talked to other companies, like to the Coca-Colas of this world, who are willing to do this, they're willing to pay a higher price, they would like to pay a higher price, so long as it's fair.
你有跟其它公司談過,像是可口可樂, 他們願意這麼做, 願意付更高的價格, 他們願意付更高的價格, 只要是公平的。
AF: Yeah, it's fair. So, Coca-Cola wouldn't like Pepsi to play ball unless the whole world knew that Pepsi wasn't playing ball. Then they don't care. So it's that transparency of the market where, if people try and cheat the system, the market can see it, the consumers can see it. The consumers want a role to play in this. Seven and a half billion of us. We don't want our world smashed by a hundred companies.
安:是的,這是公平的。是這樣的, 可口可樂不會希望 百事可樂搞花樣, 除非全世界都知道 百事可樂沒有搞花樣。 那他們就不在乎這多出來的成本。所以, 是市場的透明度, 如果有人嘗試欺騙系統, 市場會發現,消費者就會發現。 消費者想要有一個角色可以扮演。 我們七十五億人。 我們不希望我們的世界 被一百間公司破壞。
CA: Well, so tell us, you've said what the companies can do and what you're willing to do. What can people listening do?
克:你已經說過這些公司能做什麼 以及你願意做什麼。 那聽眾能做什麼呢?
AF: OK, so I would like all of us, all around the world, to go a website called noplasticwaste.org. You contact your hundred resin producers which are in your region. You will have at least one within an email or Twitter or a telephone contact from you, and let them know that you would like them to make a contribution to a fund which industry can manage or the World Bank can manage. It raises tens of billions of dollars per year so you can transition the industry to getting all its plastic from plastic, not from fossil fuel. We don't need that. That's bad. This is good. And it can clean up the environment. We've got enough capital there, we've got tens of billions of dollars, Chris, per annum to clean up the environment.
安:好,我希望我們 所有人,全世界的人, 到 noplasticwaste.org 這個網站。 去那裡聯絡你所屬地區的 一百間樹脂生產者。 至少會有一間 是你可以用電子郵件、推特, 或電話聯絡到的, 讓他們知道, 你希望他們對基金做一點貢獻, 由產業或世界銀行負責管理的基金。 請他們把每年募集到的數百億美金 協助產業轉型, 從塑膠取得塑膠, 而非從化石燃料。 我們不需要那種塑膠。 這種比較好。 環境會變得比較乾淨。 我們有足夠的資本, 我們每年有數百億美金,克里斯, 可以用來清理環境。
CA: You're in the recycling business. Isn't this a conflict of interest for you, or rather, a huge business opportunity for you?
克:你在做的是回收事業。 這不會和你的利益衝突嗎? 或對你來說是很大的商機? 安:是的,我在做鐵礦生意,
AF: Yeah, look, I'm in the iron ore business, and I compete against the scrap metal business, and that's why you don't have any scrap lying around to trip over, and cut your toe on, because it gets collected.
我和廢金屬生意競爭, 那也為什麼路上沒有 會絆倒你的廢金屬 或割傷你的腳趾, 因為它們都被撿走了。
CA: This isn't your excuse to go into the plastic recycling business.
克:這不是你進入 塑膠回收事業的理由。
AF: No, I am going to cheer for this boom. This will be the internet of plastic waste. This will be a boom industry which will spread all over the world, and particularly where poverty is worst because that's where the rubbish is most, and that's the resource. So I'm going to cheer for it and stand back.
安:不是,我會為這種繁榮加油。 這會是塑膠廢物聯網。 這會是個遍及全世界的繁榮產業, 特別是在最貧窮的地方, 因為那裡的垃圾最多, 那都是資源。 所以我會先為它加油, 之後再退居幕後。
CA: Twiggy, we're in an era where so many people around the world are craving a new, regenerative economy, these big supply chains, these big industries, to fundamentally transform. It strikes me as a giant idea, and you're going to need a lot of people cheering you on your way to make it happen. Thank you for sharing this with us.
克:崔姬,在這個時代 全世界許多人都渴望 有革新的經濟, 希望這些大型供應鏈、這些大產業 能從根本上轉型。 我覺得這是個宏大的想法, 一路上你會需要很多人 幫你加油才能實現它。 非常謝謝你和我們分享。 安:非常謝謝。謝謝你,克里斯。
AF: Thank you very much. Thank you, Chris.
(Applause)
(掌聲)