Stephanie Busari: President Ameenah, thank you for joining us. Even as TED speakers go, you're something of an overachiever.
史黛芙妮 · 布萨利:谢谢您加入 我们的谈话,阿米娜总统女士。 即使与那么多优秀的TED演讲者相比, 您的成就也超出我们的预期了。
Ameenah Gurib-Fakim: (Laughs)
阿米娜 · 古里布-法基姆:(笑声)
SB: You have a PhD in organic chemistry, you were vice chancellor of the University of Mauritius, a successful entrepreneur, you've won numerous awards for your work in science and you're the first Muslim female head of state in Africa.
您拿到了有机化学的博士学位, 是毛里求斯大学的副校长, 同时又是一位成功的企业家, 您曾经因为科学方面的贡献 得了许多奖 并且现在是非洲第一位 女性穆斯林国家元首。
(Applause)
(掌声)
And of course, you're no stranger to the TEDGlobal stage; you gave a talk in 2014. Did you have any political ambitions at that time? How did you go from academic to president?
不过您也不是第一次 来 TED Global演讲了; 您曾在2014年演讲过。 请问您在当时就有 任何政治上的目标吗? 您是怎么从一位学者变成总统的?
AGF: OK, thanks, Stephanie. First of all, I'd like to thank TED for having given me the opportunity to be here today. And I would also like to thank the government of Tanzania and the president for the welcome. And also, I'd like to thank the contribution of our consul, Mr. Rizvi, who's here, has been very supportive for all our stay here. Now, to answer your question, did I have any ambitions in politics? The straight answer is no. I did not choose the world of politics; the world of politics chose me. So here I am.
古里布-法基姆::好的,谢谢你, 史黛芙妮。 首先,我想感谢 TED 给了我今天来到这里的机会。 感谢坦桑尼亚政府 以及他们的总统的邀请。 还要感谢我们在场的领事,里滋维先生 所作出的一切贡献, 他为我们在这里的逗留 付出了很多。 现在让我们回到您刚才的问题, 我那时有政治上的目标吗? 最直接的答案其实是,没有。 我并没有选择政治; 政治选择了我。 就是这样的。
(Applause)
(掌声)
SB: So, was there ever anything in your journey that ever made you think that one day you would become president of your country? Did you ever imagine that?
布萨利:那么在那次演讲的旅途中 有发生任何事情 让你想到有一天您会成为 自己国家的总统吗? 您有想象过吗?
AGF: Absolutely not. I think the journey started immediately after TED, actually. When I went back, this journalist called me and said, "You know, your name has been cited for the president of the republic," I said, "Ma'am, you must be mistaken, because I have no ambition whatsoever." She said, "No, it's serious. Can you come and tell me this in the form of a declaration? So, OK, you'll come?" So, of course, as good journalists go, the next day I see my TED picture and, with my name, Ameenah Gurib-Fakim, "For president?" A very small interrogation mark -- and people don't see the interrogation mark, they just see my name and they see my picture.
古里布-法基姆:当然没有。 我想我的政治生涯是从 那次TED演讲之后立刻开始的。 我回去后, 有个记者打电话告诉我, “您已经成为了共和国的总统,“ 我说,“女士您一定是弄错了, 因为我没有任何这方面的志向“。 她说,“不,我是认真的。 您可以过来并以宣布的形式 告诉我吗? 好的,所以你会来?“ 由于她是一名负责的好记者, 第二天我看到了我 TED 演讲的照片 旁边还有配有我的名字, 以及”成为总统?” 这是一个很小的问号—— 但人们看不见那个问号, 他们只看到了我的名字 和我的照片。
And that was a sounding board. And again, as you have just said, it was a very interesting scenario because it was a scenario where they wanted to have somebody who was credible, had this political neutrality and at the same time, was for a minority because Islam is a minority religion in Mauritius, because in Mauritius, we stratify people's origins by virtue of their religious belief. And -- I was a woman. So this made it all very interesting.
那就像一个“传声筒”。 正如您刚才说的, 那是一个很有趣的情景, 因为在这个场景里 人们想要一个可信赖的, 政治中立的, 同时又是代表少数群体的总统。 因为在毛里求斯只有 少数人信伊斯兰教, 又因为在毛里求斯 信仰把人们划分成不同的阶层。 并且——我是一名女性, 所以这才那么不可思议。
So there we go, and this whole campaign started, and then people said, "Why not?" Now, this is very important to note, Stephanie, because normally, the president is elected after the election. And here we had a scenario where the name of the president was flagged before the election process, during the campaign. So when people voted, they knew that at some point, they would have this Muslim woman president.
事情就这么发生了, 竞选行动也就开始了, 人们说,“为什么不呢?“ 这点很值得强调, 因为总统通常都是竞选后选出来的, 但现在的情况是, 总统的名字在竞选前的运动中 就被标记出来了 当人们投选票时, 他们就知道, 他们将要拥有这位穆斯林女总统。
SB: Does it feel significant to you as a woman to be the first female president of your country?
布萨利:成为你们国家的第一位女总统 对您来说是不是特别有意义呢?
AGF: It's important for many reasons. I think, obviously, you just mentioned the terrible statistics of two female presidents in the whole of Africa. But more importantly, I think it's important also coming from the background I come from -- by background I mean not ethnic, but more academic and entrepreneurial -- to be there, to be that role model for that little girl growing in my village to say, "Yes, it's possible." It's possible.
古里布-法基姆:有几个原因让它如此有意义。 一个是您刚刚提到的, 整个非洲只有两位女总统 这一令人失望的事实。 但更重要的是, 我的出身让这一切变得如此有意义。 在这里我的出身并不指种族, 而是指在学术和企业方面, 作为我长大的那个小村庄 所有小女孩的模范站出来, 并且说,“我可以”。 我可以的。
(Applause)
(掌声)
It's also important, Stephanie, while I talk about diversity -- diversity in the widest sense of the word. We've seen that whenever there was diversity, whenever there was openness, whenever there was dialogue, this was the time when societies have been most productive. When we talk about the Arab Golden Age, we cannot not think of Ibn Sina, al-Haytham, Averroes, Maimonides. This was a time when cultures, religions -- they were talking to each other. They were at peace with each other. And this was a time when they were highly productive. So I would say: bring down these walls.
还有一点很重要, 当我说到多样性, 我讲的是最广泛意义上的多样性。 只要一个社会上有多样性, 有开放和包容, 有不同人群间的交流时, 这个社会才是最有效率的。 当我们说到阿拉伯黄金时期时, 我们不能不想到伊本·西那, 海什木, 伊本·鲁世德, 还有迈蒙尼德。 那是一个文化和宗教 相互交流的时代。 它们和平相处。 那同时也是一个硕果累累的时代。 所以我会说:让人们的隔阂消失吧。
SB: Absolutely, absolutely.
当然。
(Applause)
(掌声)
AGF: Virtual or otherwise.
是实质上的消失。
SB: Let's also talk about another conflict area which you straddle quite interestingly. As a woman of faith and also a scientist, you know, faith and science seem to be at loggerheads. It wasn't always so, but I'm interested to get your thoughts on how you reconcile both and how they coexist for you personally.
布萨利:那让我们来谈谈 另一个有冲突的方面, 这与您的双重身份有关。 一个信仰宗教的女性和一位科学家, 这两方面似乎有严重的分歧。 我知道并不总是这样的, 但我很想知道您是 怎么协调这两方面 并让它们在您这里共存。
AGF: They're not mutually exclusive. I mean, if you're a scientist, you tend to really look at the perfection of the human body, the way it functions. If you look at nature as a whole. I'm still amazed at the perfection with which the entire ecosystem functions together. However, to the purists, to those who are of faith, they will tell you, "Yes, there has been evolution." Even the Pope has agreed that evolution exists. But there's always the question: What came first? What came before this? When we talk about all the various strata of evolution, we'll always be asking the question, there must be something before. So I'm of the opinion that yes, there is this great spiritual force which is guiding the process, and things like this don't happen by chance. Now, whether you call it religiosity, whether you call this great spirit by any name -- Brahma, Allah, the Holy Trinity -- you name it -- but I still think that these two are not mutually exclusive. They can still coexist with each other.
古里布-法基姆:他们其实 并不相互排斥, 如果你是个科学家, 你会欣赏人体的美妙之处, 研究它的运作方式。 如果把大自然当作一个整体来看, 我依然被它的完美所震惊, 是这种完美使得 整个生态系统的和谐运作。 然而,作为纯粹主义者 和宗教信仰者, 他们仍会告诉你, “进化是存在的”。 连教皇都已经 承认了这一点。 但我们总想提一个问题: 什么东西最先存在? 它之前还有东西存在吗? 当我们讲到进化的不同阶段, 我们总是会问这样的问题, 因为之前肯定有别的东西存在。 所以我认为, 有一种精神的力量 在指导着这个过程, 因为这些过程并不是 偶然发生的。 无论你只把这种力量叫“宗教”, 还是直接叫出这种精神力量的名字, 梵天,安拉,还是三位一体, 都可以, 只是我觉得这两方面并不矛盾。 它们是可以共存的。
SB: So let's move to one of your passions -- science. You've made no secret of that. And you've always been passionate about science. I read that when you were a very young girl, you went to a career guidance counselor and told them you wanted to become a chemist, and they said, "No, it's for boys. Boys do science." Did that make you even more determined to study science and to succeed in that field? How did you respond to that?
布萨利:那让现在让我们来谈谈 您的爱好,科学。 这并不是一个 鲜为人知的秘密。 您总是对科学种满激情。 我曾读到过, 您年轻的时候去到职业指导处 并告诉别人您想成为一位化学家, 但人们说,“不,那些是男孩做的事, 男孩才做科研。“ 这有让您更坚定地学理科 并在科学方面取得成就吗? 您当时是怎么回应的?
AGF: Well, to begin with, I must say, before I came to that career guidance officer, I had great teachers who motivated. And this is something I would like to draw attention to again, to our education system. We have to do away with this rote learning. We have to ensure that we drive this curiosity in the child, and they need to be curious. And if we want to move along the line for them to become great scientists, they need to become more and more curious in everything they do.
古里布-法基姆: 这么说吧, 在我成为一名 升学指导前, 我有很多很优秀的老师 一直在激励着我。 因此我想把公众的注意力 再次转移到我们的教育体系上。 我们要改变这种 死记硬背的学习方式, 要培养孩子们的好奇心, 他们需要好奇。 如果我们想把他们培养成科学家, 他们需要对所做的一切感到好奇。
So every time -- exactly -- I went to see the careers guidance, he looked at me and said, "What do you want to do?" I said, "I want to study chemistry." "Well, you shouldn't study chemistry because this is for boys. And the next thing, when you come back, there'll be no job for you." So I went back home, and I had a great cheerleader at home who happens to be my father. He said, "What do you want to do?" and asked, "What did he say?" I said, "This is what he said ..." He said, "What are you going to do?" I said, "I'm going to do chemistry." So there I was. And one thing I will say: one must always follow your heart. And my heart was always in chemistry. I did what I was passionate about, and I thought at some point that I had developed this thinking that if you're passionate about what you do, you will not have to work a single day in your life, until I realized it was Confucius who said that.
所以每次我去见我的职业指导时, 他都看着我说, ”你以后想做什么?“ 我说,”我想学化学“。 “你不应该学化学, 因为这是男孩做的事。 你毕业回来后会找不到工作的。“ 然后我就回家了, 我家里恰好有一个支持我的人, 也就是我父亲。 他问我,“你以后想干什么? 刚刚老师说了什么?” 我说,“这些就是他说的...... “ 他又问,”那你现在要去做什么?“ 我说,“我要去学化学”。 所以我就去了。 现在如果让我说点什么,那就是: 一定要做内心向往的事。 我的心总是在化学上, 我做了我喜欢的事, 并且我也体会到了, 如果你对自己做的事充满热情, 你人生中没有一天 是真正在工作的。 后来我意识到这句话 好像早就被孔子说过了。
(Laughter)
(笑声)
SB: So do you feel a responsibility, as someone in your position, to encourage young girls, especially on this continent, to study STEM subjects? Is that something that you actively work --
布萨利:所以您的经历 让您觉得有责任 去鼓励非洲大陆上的女孩 学习科学技术工程等等吗? 这是您想做的吗?
AGF: You know, over the past two days, Stephanie, we've been hearing a lot of conversation about the sustainable development goals. We've seen that, for example, Africa must be food secure, Africa must be energy secure, Africa must be water secure. If we want to get to that level of development -- Agenda 2030 is not very far away -- if you want to have success, we need to have an educated youth in Africa. And again, to be very cliché: you cannot achieve, you cannot win a football match, if you're going to leave 52 percent of the team outside. It's not possible.
古里布-法基姆:在过去的两天里, 我们听到了许多 有关可持续发展的谈话。 比如我们已经知道的, 非洲一定要食物稳定, 能源稳定, 水资源稳定。 如果想达到那种程度的发展, 2030年已经不远了。 但如果想要成功, 必须要有高素质的非洲青少年。 说句老掉牙的话: 如果把52%的队员 都留在场外, 你是不可能赢得一场足球比赛的。 这是不可能的。
(Applause)
(掌声)
SB: Yes.
布萨利:是的。
AGF: So we need highly educated, we need female intuition, and we need to get them there. And this is where a great deal of effort has to be done to actually motivate them from a very young age, to tell that girl that she can do anything. And if the message comes from her father, if the message comes from her brother, it's even much more powerful. We need to tell her that anything is possible and she can do it. We need to build her self-confidence from a very early age, but more importantly, we also need to actually look at the books, because there are too many stereotypes.
古里布-法基姆:所以我们需要受过 高等教育的女性, 我们需要女性的直觉, 我们要让她们接受教育。 这是我们应该尽全力做的, 从小鼓励她们, 她们可以做任何事情。 如果这些话来自她们的父亲, 来自她们的兄弟, 那将会更有说服力。 我们要告诉她们, 没有什么是不可能的, 她们有能力做到。 我们要从小培养她们的自信, 更重要的是, 我们要批判性地审视我们的书籍, 因为里面有太多模式化观念。
Last year, I was very shocked when I went to a debate on Women's Day. They had a survey, and they were asking these girls how many women inventors we have, how many women scientists do we have. And you'd be shocked that hardly anyone knew that Ada Lovelace was there behind computer science, that Marie Curie still remains iconic with two Nobel prizes. So there's a lot of homework to do to actually make -- to remove all these gender biases at a very young age; instill that confidence in that girl; to tell her that she can do as well if not better than her brother.
去年我在一场 妇女节的辩论中被震惊了。 他们做了一项调查, 他们问女孩们 有多少发明家是女性, 以及有多少女性科学家。 你会震惊地发现 几乎没人知道 埃达·洛夫莱斯写下了 历史上第一个电脑程序算法, 玛丽·居里是不多的得过两次 诺贝尔奖的科学家之一。 有太多的事情需要做, 以移除性别歧视观念, 从小培养女孩们的自信; 告诉她们,她们可以做得和她们兄弟 一样甚至更好
SB: Yes.
是的。
(Applause)
(掌声)
Thank you.
谢谢。
So, let's move on to an area that I know you've been very active in, which is the issue of biodiversity. You've been quite clear that this is an area that Africa must embrace. We have an abundance of rich herbal traditions and plants that could be developed into a big pharmaceutical industry. Can you tell us a little bit of how you've been using your expertise to harness growth in this area?
布萨利:那让我们再谈谈 您很关心的另一个话题, 也就是生物多样性。 我们知道这是一个 在非洲必须重视的话题。 我们有很多草本植物和草药配方 可以发展成大规模的制药产业。 可以告诉我们您是怎么 用您的专业知识 促进这方面的发展的吗?
AGF: Thank you. Yesterday, I was listening to one of the talks; it was the talk about the need for Africa to turn into a knowledge economy. Africa has got very rich traditions. Sub-Saharan Africa, southern Africa, has got over 5,000 medicinal plant species, not harnessed. And, in fact, at the TED talk I gave in 2014, I came out with one sentence: "Biodiversity underpins life on earth." And if we don't look after this biodiversity, if we don't protect it, if we don't actually harness it in the right way, we are threatening our own livelihoods on this planet. When we talk about the contribution from countries of the north to the Green Fund for the protection of our planet, it is not charity. It is to ensure our own collective livelihoods on this planet. So this is something that must be addressed.
古里布-法基姆:好的。 昨天我在听这方面的谈话; 它关于非洲需要发展知识经济。 非洲有很丰富的自然资源。 撒哈拉以南的非洲 拥有超过5000种药用植物 没有被利用。 在2014年我那场演讲中, 我说了一句话: “生物多样性支持着地球上所有生命”。 如果我们不保护这种 生物多样性, 不保护它, 不正确地利用它, 就会威胁自己在这个星球上的生存。 当我们谈到来自北营国家 为了保护我们的星球对 绿色基金做的贡献, 我们不是在做慈善。 而是在保卫我们共同的家园。 对这一点的解释很有必要。
Now, again, when you talk about getting this biodiversity of Africa working for us, you'd be shocked to know that out of the 1,100 blockbuster drugs that we have on the market, only 83 come from African plants. Why is this so? Because we are responsible; us Africans. We don't value our own traditional knowledge. We don't give it the same status as allopathic medicine. Look at what China has done. China has given the same status for traditional Chinese medicine as allopathic medicine, as of 2016. Our governments, our people, have not documented, have not taken this knowledge seriously. If you want to get serious about Africa becoming a knowledge continent, this is something that we need to address very seriously, we need to start documenting, we need to start codifying this knowledge, and unfortunately, we are racing against time because tradition in Africa is that the transmission has always been oral. So we need to get our act together and make it happen.
现在当我们讲到 正确利用非洲的生物多样性, 你会吃惊地发现, 1100种市场上畅销的药物中, 只有83种来自非洲植物。 为什么会这样呢? 我们要负责任。 我们非洲人。 我们不珍惜自己的传统知识。 我们不让它们成为正式药物。 看看中国的做法吧。 他们让传统的中药 成为了正式药物, 这就发生在2016年。 我们的政府和人民从未记录过, 也从未认真对待过我们的这种知识。 如果想真正让非洲变成 一片知识大陆, 这就是我们要严肃对待的问题了。 我们要开始记录, 要开始系统地整理这些知识, 但不幸的是, 我们在与时间赛跑, 因为这些知识在非洲 都是通过口头传下来的。 所以我们要一起行动让奇迹发生。
SB: So there's really a sense of urgency around this.
布萨利:看起来真的情况紧急。
AGF: Yes.
古里布-法基姆:是的。
(Applause)
(掌声)
SB: And have you done anything yourself in respect to documenting --
布萨利:您有做过有关记录的任何事吗?
AGF: Yes, I definitely did. When I started my career in academia, one of the first things I did was I documented precisely these plants. And I'll tell you one thing -- it was not perceived to be very serious, because here I was, in synthetic organic chemistry, going out there, talking to these grandmothers, documenting their recipes. I mean, you can't be serious -- bringing weeds in the lab, and say, "We're going to be working on these." Are we going to get results? So it was really a race against prejudice to try to take people's -- bring them to the table and say, "Look, this is very important." But I'm glad I did, because by that time, you start developing a crocodile skin, especially when you're a woman in the lab doing different things. You know -- you become suspect. So I documented it; I'm very happy I did. And now, almost 20 years since the documentation, it now constitutes prior art, and is now very well-documented at WIPO, and it is now the information which, subsequently, my company actually started working on as well.
古里布-法基姆:当然有。 当我学术界的事业刚开始时, 我做的第一件事就是 精确地记录这些植物。 我想说明一点: 这件事没有引起人们的重视, 因为我是学有机化学的, 跑去跟老奶奶们说, 我想记录她们的药方。 把草药带进实验室并说, “我们要研究它们” 这并不能引起重视。 我们会得到想要的结果吗? 这是与偏见的赛跑, 试着想说服人们, 把他们带到桌子前说, “这很重要”。 但我很高兴我那么做了, 因为那时我变得越来越坚韧, 特别是当你是一个在实验室里 做不同事情的女性时, 你会开始怀疑。 但我还是记录了它们, 我很高兴我那么做了。 现在已经过了差不多20年了, 这些药方 已经被世界知识产权组织 完好地记录下来了。 这些信息现在也成为了 我的公司的重点研究对象。
SB: So, I watched you in the makeup room taking selfies with the makeup artist, and just being generally very accessible. And it strikes me that you're not the kind of typical, big-man, African leader. You seem very --
布萨利:我看到您在化妆室 跟化妆师自拍时 感觉很亲切。 这让我很惊讶, 您不仅是那种典型的 有男子汉气概的非洲领导人 您看起来很...
AGF: You just demoted me. You called me a man.
古里布-法基姆:您刚刚贬低了我, 因为您说我像男性。
(Laughter)
(笑声)
SB: I mean your style --
布萨利:我是说您的风格
(Applause)
(掌声)
Your style seems to be very accessible and quite unassuming. So is this -- I mean, people tend to ask women leaders if their gender has a bearing on the way they rule, or the way they lead. Does that apply to you?
您的风格非常平易近人,谦逊。 所以 人们常问女性领导人, 性别是否会影响她们管理, 或者领导的方式。 您对这个问题怎么看呢?
AGF: You know, I've never taken myself seriously.
古里布-法基姆:我从来 不把自己看得太高。
SB: OK. That's good.
布萨利:啊,那很好。
(Laughter)
(笑声)
AGF: I still don't. And I don't think you should take yourself seriously. You need to have trust in what you can do, have confidence in yourself and give yourself a set of goals and just work towards them. So the goal I've given myself is, OK, I'm leading my third life -- because I've been an academic, I've been an entrepreneur, now I'm here. I'm hoping to have a fourth life. So put these to work for the continent. And this is why I have chosen to give my voice to so many initiatives that would help the youth of Africa become tech-savvy, become science-savvy, because as I said earlier on, up until they get to grips with science, with whatever is around -- media, technology, you name it, all calls for a good grounding in science, technology and innovation. I think we'll be here, 10 years, 20 years down the line, having the same conversation.
古里布-法基姆:我现在也不会。 我认为一个人不应该过于在意自己, 我们应该相信自己的能力, 让自己充满自信, 给自己设定一系列目标 并不断追寻它们。 我给自己设定的目标是, 我经历过三种生活方式了, 我曾是学者,企业家,现在是总统。 我希望有第四种生活方式, 并用它们让这片大陆变得更美好。 这就是我那么支持 青少年科技创新项目的原因。 因为它们帮助孩子们获取科学常识。 正如我先前所说的, 除非孩子们能掌握科学 不论通过什么渠道, 媒体,科技等等, 来打造科技创新的基础, 我们不会有任何变化, 10年,20年后 我们还会在这里探讨同样的问题。
SB: Let's talk quickly about the challenges of leadership and governance. It's hard to ignore that there's corruption on this continent with some of our leaders. How have you confronted that in your role, and what experiences can you share with us around this issue?
布萨利:让我们简短地谈一谈 领导和管理带来的挑战。 我们很难忽视 一些非洲领导人的腐败问题。 您是怎么面对这个问题的呢, 您有什么有关的经历 要和我们分享吗?
AGF: We've had corruption -- corruption doesn't exist only in Africa. Where there is a corruptee, there is a corrupter. Right? It's always a two-way process. We have focused in my country, we are working very hard towards doing something about corruption, but, you know, they also have great people in Africa. Why do we always focus on the negative? Why don't we talk about ... I want to bring on board, for example, the great quotes of Nelson Mandela. His legacy is still very much alive. We have people in -- even in Tanzania, we've had Julius Nyerere, he have Nkrumah, we have Kenyatta, we have all these people who have been champions of Africa. I think we need to take pages of their book and see. In fact, Julius Nyerere himself had been a great advocate for science when he said that "science will make deserts bloom." So these are some of the founding fathers of this continent; we need to take pages from them and move ahead.
古里布-法基姆:非洲的确存在腐败, 但腐败不仅仅存在于非洲。 当有人行贿,就会有人受贿。 这是一个双方面的过程。 我们正聚焦在我们国家的问题上, 我们正努力消除腐败现象。 但非洲也有很多伟人。 为什么我们总要 把精力集中在负能量上? 我想让大家看到 曼德拉等伟人的正能量。 他的精神永将长存。 在坦桑尼亚, 我们还有朱利叶斯·尼雷尔 夸梅·恩克鲁玛, 乌胡鲁·肯雅塔, 我们有那么多非洲的捍卫者。 我们应该学习他们的事迹, 朱利叶斯·尼雷尔就曾是 科学技术的倡导者。 他说,“科学会让沙漠长出绿洲“。 这些都是为这片大陆奋斗的前辈们; 我们要从他们辉煌的篇章中 汲取精华, 奋力前进。
(Applause)
(掌声)
SB: Thank you very much, President Fakim.
布萨利:非常感谢您,总统女士。
AGF: Thank you.
古里布-法基姆:谢谢。
(Applause)
(掌声)