One of the most common ways of dividing the world is into those who believe and those who don't -- into the religious and the atheists. And for the last decade or so, it's been quite clear what being an atheist means. There have been some very vocal atheists who've pointed out, not just that religion is wrong, but that it's ridiculous. These people, many of whom have lived in North Oxford, have argued -- they've argued that believing in God is akin to believing in fairies and essentially that the whole thing is a childish game.
一个把人类分成两大部分很普遍的方法 便是分为相信神的存在的一部分 以及不相信宗教信仰的另一部分-- 宗教教徒和无神论者 在最近的十年中 对无神论者的定义 已经是十分清楚的了 有些直话直说的无神论者 他们说 宗教不仅仅是种欺骗 它还非常荒谬 说这些话的人很多都住在牛津北部 他们坚持 -- 他们觉得相信上帝 就像相信童话故事 所以相信宗教根本就是 一件很幼稚的事情
Now I think it's too easy. I think it's too easy to dismiss the whole of religion that way. And it's as easy as shooting fish in a barrel. And what I'd like to inaugurate today is a new way of being an atheist -- if you like, a new version of atheism we could call Atheism 2.0. Now what is Atheism 2.0? Well it starts from a very basic premise: of course, there's no God. Of course, there are no deities or supernatural spirits or angels, etc. Now let's move on; that's not the end of the story, that's the very, very beginning.
我觉得那些定义太简单了 我觉得以那样的说法去排斥宗教 实在是太肤浅了 那样的说法不具备说服力 我想提出一种以无神论者 来对待宗教的方式 我把那种方式 叫做无神论2.0 那什么是无神论2.0呢 它有个最基本的前提 就是相信上帝是不存在的 当然也没有神仙或者超自然的力量 或者天使等等 这只是最基本的一个开始 现在我们来更深层次地讨论一下
I'm interested in the kind of constituency that thinks something along these lines: that thinks, "I can't believe in any of this stuff. I can't believe in the doctrines. I don't think these doctrines are right. But," a very important but, "I love Christmas carols. I really like the art of Mantegna. I really like looking at old churches. I really like turning the pages of the Old Testament." Whatever it may be, you know the kind of thing I'm talking about -- people who are attracted to the ritualistic side, the moralistic, communal side of religion, but can't bear the doctrine. Until now, these people have faced a rather unpleasant choice. It's almost as though either you accept the doctrine and then you can have all the nice stuff, or you reject the doctrine and you're living in some kind of spiritual wasteland under the guidance of CNN and Walmart.
我对有些情况非常感兴趣 有些人会说: ”我完全不相信这些宗教 那些教义 那些学说 我觉得它们全部都是假的 但是,” 一个非常重要的但是,“我会喜欢圣诞颂歌 我非常喜欢曼坦那的艺术 还非常喜欢那些古老的教堂 而且还喜欢看旧约圣书” 这样类似的情况还有很多 你懂我的意思吧 有些人喜欢宗教仪式 喜欢宗教里的道德 文化 但他们就是讨厌那些教条 直到现在,他们一直都非常为难 要么你接受那些信仰 然后你可以享受那些文化 艺术 道德 要么你排斥那些教条 然后你就不能拥有那些崇高的灵魂 并且在CNN和沃尔玛的光辉下被遗弃
So that's a sort of tough choice. I don't think we have to make that choice. I think there is an alternative. I think there are ways -- and I'm being both very respectful and completely impious -- of stealing from religions. If you don't believe in a religion, there's nothing wrong with picking and mixing, with taking out the best sides of religion. And for me, atheism 2.0 is about both, as I say, a respectful and an impious way of going through religions and saying, "What here could we use?" The secular world is full of holes. We have secularized badly, I would argue. And a thorough study of religion could give us all sorts of insights into areas of life that are not going too well. And I'd like to run through a few of these today.
所以那些人就很难选择 但我觉得我们不必去做这些选择 我们可以有第三种选择 我觉得-- 而卧是无比的尊重但同时不虔诚的这么说-- 我觉得我们可以从宗教里剽窃一些文化 如果你不相信宗教 把宗教和世俗的文化混一起没什么关系 把自己享受宗教最好的一面也没事 对我来说 无神论2.0 是对宗教充满敬意 而同时又不对神有所景仰 就像走进宗教的世界去寻找对我们有用的东西 世俗的世界有许多缺点 我觉得许多人都被严重地世俗化了 而对宗教的学习研究 可以帮助我们看破尘世 帮助我们走出生活中的窘境 现在我想具体地解释一下
I'd like to kick off by looking at education. Now education is a field the secular world really believes in. When we think about how we're going to make the world a better place, we think education; that's where we put a lot of money. Education is going to give us, not only commercial skills, industrial skills, it's also going to make us better people. You know the kind of thing a commencement address is, and graduation ceremonies, those lyrical claims that education, the process of education -- particularly higher education -- will make us into nobler and better human beings. That's a lovely idea. Interesting where it came from.
先从教育说起 非宗教的人们十分相信 学习、教育的力量 我们觉得教育使世界进步 我们还在教育上花了很多钱 教育不仅仅给我们很多本领,例如商业以及工业技术, 还让我们变成更加优秀的人 像是那些开学典礼或者毕业典礼的演讲 那些话语都告诉我们 教育的过程 特别是高等教育 会使我们变成高尚优秀的人才 那是个很好的想法 这想法的起源也很有意思
In the early 19th century, church attendance in Western Europe started sliding down very, very sharply, and people panicked. They asked themselves the following question. They said, where are people going to find the morality, where are they going to find guidance, and where are they going to find sources of consolation? And influential voices came up with one answer. They said culture. It's to culture that we should look for guidance, for consolation, for morality. Let's look to the plays of Shakespeare, the dialogues of Plato, the novels of Jane Austen. In there, we'll find a lot of the truths that we might previously have found in the Gospel of Saint John. Now I think that's a very beautiful idea and a very true idea. They wanted to replace scripture with culture. And that's a very plausible idea. It's also an idea that we have forgotten.
在十九世纪初的西欧 去教堂的人急速减少 大家也变得紧张起来 他们问自己 人们要去哪里寻找好品德 去哪里寻找指引 又去哪里去寻找慰藉呢 那些有影响力的人回答道: 文化 我们要在我们的文明中 寻找指引 慰藉 和好品德 去看莎士比亚的剧本 柏拉图的对话 简.奥斯汀的小说 我们可以找到很多真理 那些真理很可能也在<约翰福音>中出现过 我觉得这想法是非常美妙真实的 他们想用文化积淀来代替圣典 这也是非常有道理的 但这也是一个我们已经忘却了的想法
If you went to a top university -- let's say you went to Harvard or Oxford or Cambridge -- and you said, "I've come here because I'm in search of morality, guidance and consolation; I want to know how to live," they would show you the way to the insane asylum. This is simply not what our grandest and best institutes of higher learning are in the business of. Why? They don't think we need it. They don't think we are in an urgent need of assistance. They see us as adults, rational adults. What we need is information. We need data, we don't need help.
如果你去顶尖学府 像是哈佛 牛津 或者剑桥 然后你对他们说 "我想找到指引 慰藉 和道德" "我还想知道怎么好好生活" 那些大学会让你去神经病医院 品德 慰藉 指引根本不是那些大学 所管辖的 为什么呢 因为他们觉得我们不需要那些 他们觉得我们不需要援助 他们觉得我们是有逻辑讲道理的大人 他们觉得我们只需要信息 只需要资料 根本不需要帮助
Now religions start from a very different place indeed. All religions, all major religions, at various points call us children. And like children, they believe that we are in severe need of assistance. We're only just holding it together. Perhaps this is just me, maybe you. But anyway, we're only just holding it together. And we need help. Of course, we need help. And so we need guidance and we need didactic learning.
而宗教就完全不一样了 所有主流的宗教 都把教徒看成是个孩子 就像孩子一样 宗教相信 我们十分急切地需要他们的援助 我们已经在了崩溃的边缘 可能只有我是这样 或许你也是这样 但不管怎样 我们都在边缘线上 而且我们无疑需要帮助 所以我们需要指引 需要言教
You know, in the 18th century in the U.K., the greatest preacher, greatest religious preacher, was a man called John Wesley, who went up and down this country delivering sermons, advising people how they could live. He delivered sermons on the duties of parents to their children and children to their parents, the duties of the rich to the poor and the poor to the rich. He was trying to tell people how they should live through the medium of sermons, the classic medium of delivery of religions.
在十八世纪的英国 有个最伟大的传教士叫做约翰.韦斯利 他在全英国到处传教 建议人们怎样好好生活 他传道说教 告诉父母如何对待小孩 告诉孩子如何对待父母 也告诉富人穷人如何相互对待 他用说教的方式 去告诉大家如何去生活 这是说教最传统的方式
Now we've given up with the idea of sermons. If you said to a modern liberal individualist, "Hey, how about a sermon?" they'd go, "No, no. I don't need one of those. I'm an independent, individual person." What's the difference between a sermon and our modern, secular mode of delivery, the lecture? Well a sermon wants to change your life and a lecture wants to give you a bit of information. And I think we need to get back to that sermon tradition. The tradition of sermonizing is hugely valuable, because we are in need of guidance, morality and consolation -- and religions know that.
现在我们摒弃了说教的方式 如果你对一个现代自由的个人主义者说 "嘿 去布道怎么样" 他们会说 "我才不要呢" "我是个独立自主的个体" 但是宗教里的布道和平时现代的讲课演讲 到底有什么区别呢 宗教里的传教想改变你的生活 而一个演讲只是给你一些信息资料 我觉得我们有必要找回传教的习俗 这个习俗是非常有用的 因为我们都需要指引 道德 和慰藉 而宗教都知道如何帮助我们
Another point about education: we tend to believe in the modern secular world that if you tell someone something once, they'll remember it. Sit them in a classroom, tell them about Plato at the age of 20, send them out for a career in management consultancy for 40 years, and that lesson will stick with them. Religions go, "Nonsense. You need to keep repeating the lesson 10 times a day. So get on your knees and repeat it." That's what all religions tell us: "Get on you knees and repeat it 10 or 20 or 15 times a day." Otherwise our minds are like sieves.
关于教育 还有一点 在非宗教世界里 我们开始相信 我们告诉别人某件事情一遍 他们就可以完全记住 让他们坐在教室里 在20岁时教他们柏拉图的哲学 然后让他们去当管理顾问当40年 而他们也不会忘记柏拉图的哲学 而宗教会说:"胡说" "那道理必须一天重复10次才可以" "所以现在你就跪下好好复习" 这是宗教告诉我们的道理 "跪下然后每天复习10遍 20遍 15遍" 不然我们很快就会忘记
So religions are cultures of repetition. They circle the great truths again and again and again. We associate repetition with boredom. "Give us the new," we're always saying. "The new is better than the old." If I said to you, "Okay, we're not going to have new TED. We're just going to run through all the old ones and watch them five times because they're so true. We're going to watch Elizabeth Gilbert five times because what she says is so clever," you'd feel cheated. Not so if you're adopting a religious mindset.
所以宗教培养我们重复、温习的美德 宗教重复伟大的真理一遍又一遍 我们会觉得重复就是无聊 我们一直说:"说点新鲜的" "新的总是比旧的好" 如果我对你说 "好吧 TED视频都不会更新了" "我们就看那些旧的视频" "每天看五次 因为那些视频是在是太棒了" "我们每天看伊莉莎白.吉尔伯托五次" "因为她的想法实在太聪明了" 你会觉得你被骗了 但如果你信仰宗教 你就不会这样想
The other things that religions do is to arrange time. All the major religions give us calendars. What is a calendar? A calendar is a way of making sure that across the year you will bump into certain very important ideas. In the Catholic chronology, Catholic calendar, at the end of March you will think about St. Jerome and his qualities of humility and goodness and his generosity to the poor. You won't do that by accident; you will do that because you are guided to do that. Now we don't think that way. In the secular world we think, "If an idea is important, I'll bump into it. I'll just come across it." Nonsense, says the religious world view. Religious view says we need calendars, we need to structure time, we need to synchronize encounters. This comes across also in the way in which religions set up rituals around important feelings.
宗教还会帮助你 安排时间 所有主流宗教都会有特定的日历 什么是日历? 日历确保你在整一年里 你会遭遇一些的重大想法 在天主教日历中 在三月月底你会想到圣杰罗姆 想到他的谦卑和善良 和他对穷人的慷慨 你不会碰巧想到他 你想到他因为你被引导了 现在我们不这样想 在非宗教世界里 我们觉得 "我会毫无预兆就想到一个好主意" "我是偶然想到的" 宗教人士会说 "胡扯" 宗教人士觉得我们需要日历 需要安排好时间 我们需要同步好想法和时间 这还帮助宗教们 安排传统仪式 和感受到特定的感情
Take the Moon. It's really important to look at the Moon. You know, when you look at the Moon, you think, "I'm really small. What are my problems?" It sets things into perspective, etc., etc. We should all look at the Moon a bit more often. We don't. Why don't we? Well there's nothing to tell us, "Look at the Moon." But if you're a Zen Buddhist in the middle of September, you will be ordered out of your home, made to stand on a canonical platform and made to celebrate the festival of Tsukimi, where you will be given poems to read in honor of the Moon and the passage of time and the frailty of life that it should remind us of. You'll be handed rice cakes. And the Moon and the reflection on the Moon will have a secure place in your heart. That's very good.
就像月亮 看月亮是非常重要的 你看月亮的时候 你会想 "我真渺小 我有什么问题呢" 这帮助你从不同角度看世界 我们应该经常赏月 可是我们不这么做 为什么呢 因为光看月亮不会给我们什么信息 但如果你是个信禅的 在九月中旬 你会去一个专门的站台上 去庆祝月见节日 你会吟诗去赞赏月亮 你会阅读关于时间的文章 你会被重新提醒关于生命的脆弱 你会收到米糕 而月亮和它的倒影会让你 感到内心中的一片净土 这是很好的事情
The other thing that religions are really aware of is: speak well -- I'm not doing a very good job of this here -- but oratory, oratory is absolutely key to religions. In the secular world, you can come through the university system and be a lousy speaker and still have a great career. But the religious world doesn't think that way. What you're saying needs to be backed up by a really convincing way of saying it.
宗教还注重另外一件事情 就是去好好说话发言 虽然我的演讲不是很出色 但是演讲术对宗教来说是非常关键的 在非宗教世界里 你仍然可以有个很好的工作 即使你演讲说的很糟糕 但是在宗教世界里不是这样的 你说的话必须要有说服力 去支持你的论点
So if you go to an African-American Pentecostalist church in the American South and you listen to how they talk, my goodness, they talk well. After every convincing point, people will go, "Amen, amen, amen." At the end of a really rousing paragraph, they'll all stand up, and they'll go, "Thank you Jesus, thank you Christ, thank you Savior." If we were doing it like they do it -- let's not do it, but if we were to do it -- I would tell you something like, "Culture should replace scripture." And you would go, "Amen, amen, amen." And at the end of my talk, you would all stand up and you would go, "Thank you Plato, thank you Shakespeare, thank you Jane Austen." And we'd know that we had a real rhythm going. All right, all right. We're getting there. We're getting there.
如果你去一个在美国南部的非洲美国 五旬节教会 你会知道他们的演讲 是如何出色 每在说得好的地方 大家会说"阿门 阿门 阿门" 在最后一段振奋人心的地方 大家都会站起来 他们说 "谢谢你耶稣 谢谢上帝 谢谢救世主" 如果我们像他们那样做-- 好吧算了 但如果我们真的做了-- 我会告诉你们 文明文化应该代替教典 然后你们会说 "阿门 阿门 阿门" 我演讲完的时候 你们应该都站起来 然后说 "谢谢你柏拉图 谢谢莎士比亚 谢谢简.奥斯汀" 我们都知道你们会说的很好 好了 快说到重点了
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The other thing that religions know is we're not just brains, we are also bodies. And when they teach us a lesson, they do it via the body. So for example, take the Jewish idea of forgiveness. Jews are very interested in forgiveness and how we should start anew and start afresh. They don't just deliver us sermons on this. They don't just give us books or words about this. They tell us to have a bath. So in Orthodox Jewish communities, every Friday you go to a Mikveh. You immerse yourself in the water, and a physical action backs up a philosophical idea. We don't tend to do that. Our ideas are in one area and our behavior with our bodies is in another. Religions are fascinating in the way they try and combine the two.
宗教还知道我们人类不仅仅有智慧 我们还有躯体 所以他们通过身体 来教会我们道理 举个例子 像是犹太人懂得宽容 他们很喜欢饶恕宽让 也喜欢重新有个崭新的生活 他们不仅仅通过传教来告诉我们 也不仅仅给我们书本去学习 他们告诉我们去沐浴 在正统的犹太社会里 每个星期五他们都去一个池子 让身体浸没在水里 身体上的动作支撑着哲学思想 而世俗的人们不这么做 我们的身体和智慧在不同的世界里 而宗教却把智慧和躯体结合起来
Let's look at art now. Now art is something that in the secular world, we think very highly of. We think art is really, really important. A lot of our surplus wealth goes to museums, etc. We sometimes hear it said that museums are our new cathedrals, or our new churches. You've heard that saying. Now I think that the potential is there, but we've completely let ourselves down. And the reason we've let ourselves down is that we're not properly studying how religions handle art.
现在看看我们的艺术 在世俗的世界里 我们认为艺术是崇高的 我们认为艺术是非常重要的 许多盈余的钱财都花在了艺术馆里 有时候我们听到有人说 博物馆是我们新的教堂 你们一定听过这句话 我觉得博物馆是有潜力成为新的教堂 但是我们完全没有那样去做 我们让自己失望的原因 是我们没有适当地学习宗教的艺术 是我们没有适当地学习宗教的艺术
The two really bad ideas that are hovering in the modern world that inhibit our capacity to draw strength from art: The first idea is that art should be for art's sake -- a ridiculous idea -- an idea that art should live in a hermetic bubble and should not try to do anything with this troubled world. I couldn't disagree more. The other thing that we believe is that art shouldn't explain itself, that artists shouldn't say what they're up to, because if they said it, it might destroy the spell and we might find it too easy. That's why a very common feeling when you're in a museum -- let's admit it -- is, "I don't know what this is about." But if we're serious people, we don't admit to that. But that feeling of puzzlement is structural to contemporary art.
在当代世界有两个特别糟糕的想法 他们抑制了我们在艺术里获得力量的本领 第一 艺术就为了艺术而存在 -- 说起来很荒谬 -- 艺术应该在一个封闭的世界里存在 不应该去打扰我们世俗的纠纷 我十分十分不赞同这个想法 另外 我们还相信艺术不应该被诠释 艺术家们不应该解释他们到底在干什么 因为如果他们说了 艺术就没有任何魔力了 而且我们还觉得艺术没什么深度 这就是为什么在艺术馆我们通常会感受到的-- 承认吧-- 我们会想 "我完全不知道这作品是什么东西" 但如果我们是严肃的人 我们是不会承认的 但正是那样的感觉构造了 当代艺术
Now religions have a much saner attitude to art. They have no trouble telling us what art is about. Art is about two things in all the major faiths. Firstly, it's trying to remind you of what there is to love. And secondly, it's trying to remind you of what there is to fear and to hate. And that's what art is. Art is a visceral encounter with the most important ideas of your faith. So as you walk around a church, or a mosque or a cathedral, what you're trying to imbibe, what you're imbibing is, through your eyes, through your senses, truths that have otherwise come to you through your mind.
现在宗教对艺术有了很多理智的态度 他们可以很简单告诉我们什么是艺术 在主流的信仰中 艺术无非关于两种东西 第一 艺术告诉你 这世界有爱 第二 艺术提醒你 这世界也有恐惧和憎恨 而这就是艺术 艺术表达了你内心最重要的信仰 所以当你走进教堂 或者走进清真寺的时候 通过你的五官 你最想感受的是那些真理 那些掠过你思想中的真理
Essentially it's propaganda. Rembrandt is a propagandist in the Christian view. Now the word "propaganda" sets off alarm bells. We think of Hitler, we think of Stalin. Don't, necessarily. Propaganda is a manner of being didactic in honor of something. And if that thing is good, there's no problem with it at all.
本质上那是宗教的宣传 在基督教看来 伦勃朗是个宣传者 现在 "宣传"一词让人们警觉 我们想到希特勒和斯大林 但其实没有这个必要 这只是一个宣扬某种东西的手段 如果宣扬的东西是有益处的 那这手段也没什么问题
My view is that museums should take a leaf out of the book of religions. And they should make sure that when you walk into a museum -- if I was a museum curator, I would make a room for love, a room for generosity. All works of art are talking to us about things. And if we were able to arrange spaces where we could come across works where we would be told, use these works of art to cement these ideas in your mind, we would get a lot more out of art. Art would pick up the duty that it used to have and that we've neglected because of certain mis-founded ideas. Art should be one of the tools by which we improve our society. Art should be didactic.
我觉得艺术馆应该向宗教学习 艺术馆应该确保 当游客走进馆内时候-- 如果我是馆长 我会专门为爱 为慷慨而准备特定的展览 所有的艺术品都有相同的主题 如果有更多的空间 我们可以更深刻地了解艺术品 用这些艺术 来让美好的品德在脑海中变得更加深刻 我们会从艺术中学到更多 艺术会让我们重新肩负起曾经被摒弃的责任 那些因为误导而被忽视的责任 艺术应该是一种工具 一种能让社会进步的工具 艺术也应该是教化的
Let's think of something else. The people in the modern world, in the secular world, who are interested in matters of the spirit, in matters of the mind, in higher soul-like concerns, tend to be isolated individuals. They're poets, they're philosophers, they're photographers, they're filmmakers. And they tend to be on their own. They're our cottage industries. They are vulnerable, single people. And they get depressed and they get sad on their own. And they don't really change much.
现在想想另外的东西 想想那些在现代世俗的人们 其中有些人热衷追寻灵魂 喜欢崇高的思想 也热衷于深层次的灵性 那些人通常都是孤单的 他们是诗人 哲学家 摄影师 或是电影制作人 他们凭自己的力量生存下去 他们独立完成工作 他们脆弱 孤单 没人分担他们的痛苦不安 然而他们不会做多少改变
Now think about religions, think about organized religions. What do organized religions do? They group together, they form institutions. And that has all sorts of advantages. First of all, scale, might. The Catholic Church pulled in 97 billion dollars last year according to the Wall Street Journal. These are massive machines. They're collaborative, they're branded, they're multinational, and they're highly disciplined.
现在想想那些有组织的宗教 那些有组织的宗教干什么的呢 他们聚在一起 他们创造机构 这些都很有益处 第一 他们有规模和力量 据华尔街日报 天主教教堂去年筹了97亿美元 这些都是有权有势的机构 他们相互合作 有好名望 跨国 他们严谨纪律
These are all very good qualities. We recognize them in relation to corporations. And corporations are very like religions in many ways, except they're right down at the bottom of the pyramid of needs. They're selling us shoes and cars. Whereas the people who are selling us the higher stuff -- the therapists, the poets -- are on their own and they have no power, they have no might. So religions are the foremost example of an institution that is fighting for the things of the mind. Now we may not agree with what religions are trying to teach us, but we can admire the institutional way in which they're doing it.
那些都是很优秀的品质 我们还认同他们像个企业 公司企业和宗教有些相似之处 不过企业只提供最基本的物质 企业给我们鞋子和汽车 但是像治疗师 诗人那些人 他们给我们更高层次的东西 但是他们是独立的 没有强大的权势 他们没有力量 所以宗教就是个最棒的例子 告诉我们一个机构对于追思来说是很重要的 我们可能不同意宗教所传授的教条 但是我们可以赞赏他们组织 起来的方法
Books alone, books written by lone individuals, are not going to change anything. We need to group together. If you want to change the world, you have to group together, you have to be collaborative. And that's what religions do. They are multinational, as I say, they are branded, they have a clear identity, so they don't get lost in a busy world. That's something we can learn from.
个人作家所写的书本身 是不会带来什么改变的 我们需要团结在一起 如果我们想改变世界 我们必须团结奋斗 而这就是宗教所做的 我说过他们是跨国的 他们有名有望 他们有明确的一致性 所以他们不会在繁乱的世界中迷失 这是值得我们学习的
I want to conclude. Really what I want to say is for many of you who are operating in a range of different fields, there is something to learn from the example of religion -- even if you don't believe any of it. If you're involved in anything that's communal, that involves lots of people getting together, there are things for you in religion. If you're involved, say, in a travel industry in any way, look at pilgrimage. Look very closely at pilgrimage. We haven't begun to scratch the surface of what travel could be because we haven't looked at what religions do with travel. If you're in the art world, look at the example of what religions are doing with art. And if you're an educator in any way, again, look at how religions are spreading ideas. You may not agree with the ideas, but my goodness, they're highly effective mechanisms for doing so.
最后 我想说的是 你们这些来自各行各业的人们 你们绝对可以从宗教中学习到些东西 即使你一点都不相信宗教的信仰 如果你生活在社会里 如果你和很多人接触 宗教里绝对有对你有用的东西 如果你和旅游业有关 去参考朝圣 仔细地去学习研究朝圣 我们根本还不知道 旅行到底是怎么一回事 因为我们从来不学习宗教人士是如何旅行的 如果你玩艺术 去参考宗教人士是怎么对待艺术的 如果你是在教育界里 去参考宗教人士是如何传播思想的 你可能不喜欢那些思想 那他们传播的方式真的是超级有效
So really my concluding point is you may not agree with religion, but at the end of the day, religions are so subtle, so complicated, so intelligent in many ways that they're not fit to be abandoned to the religious alone; they're for all of us.
所以我最后想说的是 你可以不认同宗教 但是最后我想告诉你们 宗教很微妙 很复杂 也非常富有智慧 我们不应该否定全部关于宗教的事情 每个人都能从宗教中学到东西
Thank you very much.
谢谢大家
(Applause)
(掌声)
Chris Anderson: Now this is actually a courageous talk, because you're kind of setting up yourself in some ways to be ridiculed in some quarters.
CA: 这真是一个无畏的演讲 在某些地方你似乎把自己 当成了一个笑柄让大家嘲弄啊
AB: You can get shot by both sides. You can get shot by the hard-headed atheists, and you can get shot by those who fully believe.
阿兰: 不管怎么说我都有可能被批评 我可以被固执的无神论者批评 也可以被那些宗教人士扼杀
CA: Incoming missiles from North Oxford at any moment.
任何时候都会被北牛津的导弹打趴
AB: Indeed.
阿瑟: 是啊是啊
CA: But you left out one aspect of religion that a lot of people might say your agenda could borrow from, which is this sense -- that's actually probably the most important thing to anyone who's religious -- of spiritual experience, of some kind of connection with something that's bigger than you are. Is there any room for that experience in Atheism 2.0?
CA: 但是你漏掉了宗教的一个方面 很多人可能会说 能借你的议程 这是种感觉-- 可能是对信仰宗教人最重要的感觉 -- 精神的体验 某种与比你更伟大的东西 的连接 在你的无神论2.0中 有没有类似的体验呢
AB: Absolutely. I, like many of you, meet people who say things like, "But isn't there something bigger than us, something else?" And I say, "Of course." And they say, "So aren't you sort of religious?" And I go, "No." Why does that sense of mystery, that sense of the dizzying scale of the universe, need to be accompanied by a mystical feeling? Science and just observation gives us that feeling without it, so I don't feel the need. The universe is large and we are tiny, without the need for further religious superstructure. So one can have so-called spiritual moments without belief in the spirit.
阿兰: 当然啦 我像你们一样遇到很多人 他们说 "难道世界上不存在什么 比我们人类更伟大的东西吗?" 我说 "当然有啦" 他们说 "那你就是认同宗教的咯?" 我说 "不是啊" 为什么这些神秘的感觉 被宇宙的伟大所触动的感觉 一定要和神扯上关系呢 科学和观察可以给我们那种感觉 这和神没有关系 所以我不觉得有相信神的必要 宇宙很大 而我们很渺小 这不需要超自然学说来解释吧 所以一个人可以有精神上的体验 即使他不相信有灵魂这东西
CA: Actually, let me just ask a question. How many people here would say that religion is important to them? Is there an equivalent process by which there's a sort of bridge between what you're talking about and what you would say to them?
CA: 好吧 现在让我问个问题 在场观众们有多少是觉得 宗教对他们是非常重要的呢 有没有一种类似的说法 你们觉得他刚才说的和你们想说的 有种类似的地方呢
AB: I would say that there are many, many gaps in secular life and these can be plugged. It's not as though, as I try to suggest, it's not as though either you have religion and then you have to accept all sorts of things, or you don't have religion and then you're cut off from all these very good things. It's so sad that we constantly say, "I don't believe so I can't have community, so I'm cut off from morality, so I can't go on a pilgrimage." One wants to say, "Nonsense. Why not?" And that's really the spirit of my talk. There's so much we can absorb. Atheism shouldn't cut itself off from the rich sources of religion.
阿兰: 我觉得世俗的世界是有许多缺点的 但是那些缺点是可以被弥补的 但这不是说 要么你相信宗教 然后你就要相信宗教所有的教条 要么你不相信宗教 然后拒绝一切宗教带来的益处 很可悲的是我们经常说 "我不信教所以我不能有社群 所以我没有好的道德 所以我不能去朝圣" 有人会说 "胡扯 为什么不呢" 这正是我演说的重点 宗教有很多可取之处 相信无神论不应该完全无视宗教里的内涵
CA: It seems to me that there's plenty of people in the TED community who are atheists. But probably most people in the community certainly don't think that religion is going away any time soon and want to find the language to have a constructive dialogue and to feel like we can actually talk to each other and at least share some things in common. Are we foolish to be optimistic about the possibility of a world where, instead of religion being the great rallying cry of divide and war, that there could be bridging?
CA: 似乎在TED群体中 有很多人是无神论的 但是很多人可能都认为 宗教是不可能在短时间内消失的 他们还想找到适合的方法 去建设性地谈论问题 他们还觉得我们彼此可以互相沟通 或者至少有些共同点 对于这样乐观的想法 我们是不是太傻了呢 那些关于神的隔阂、争论 是不是有彼此了解的可能性呢 持有两种学说的人 是否有可能彼此沟通呢
AB: No, we need to be polite about differences. Politeness is a much-overlooked virtue. It's seen as hypocrisy. But we need to get to a stage when you're an atheist and someone says, "Well you know, I did pray the other day," you politely ignore it. You move on. Because you've agreed on 90 percent of things, because you have a shared view on so many things, and you politely differ. And I think that's what the religious wars of late have ignored. They've ignored the possibility of harmonious disagreement.
阿兰: 不一定 我们只是需要礼貌地对待另一方 有时候礼貌都被我们忽视了 有时候我们觉得那是虚伪 如果你是个无神论者 而有个人对你说 "你知道嘛 那天我祈祷了" 你应该礼貌地无视这话 该干嘛干嘛去 因为你们两个可以认同90%的事情 因为你们的世界有很多相似的地方 你们只是稍微有那么一点不同 但不伤和气 我认为近年的有无神的争论忽视了这点 他们忘记了人们即使不同也能和谐地在一起
CA: And finally, does this new thing that you're proposing that's not a religion but something else, does it need a leader, and are you volunteering to be the pope?
CA: 最后 你说的无神论2.0 它本身不是个宗教 但它需要一个领袖吗 而你又是否愿意当这个领袖呢
(Laughter)
(笑声)
AB: Well, one thing that we're all very suspicious of is individual leaders. It doesn't need it. What I've tried to lay out is a framework and I'm hoping that people can just fill it in. I've sketched a sort of broad framework. But wherever you are, as I say, if you're in the travel industry, do that travel bit. If you're in the communal industry, look at religion and do the communal bit. So it's a wiki project.
阿兰: 好吧 我们都对个人领袖 非常警惕 但无神论不需要领袖 我所说的只是一个框架理论 而我希望大家可以自由发挥实践 我只是大概地勾勒出一个结构 那不管你是谁 就像如果你是搞旅游的 那就专门钻研宗教中的旅游 如果你在社群里工作 那就专门钻研宗教里的社群方面 所以这就像维基百科一样
(Laughter)
(笑声)
CA: Alain, thank you for sparking many conversations later.
CA: 阿兰 谢谢你精彩的回答
(Applause)
(掌声)